ZSS Matchup Ratios

[Nefarious B]

So my goal for this thread is that we can all voice our opinions on matchups in one place. This is your opinion on our matchups, and while you should be ready to back up your opinion, don't feel like you have to go with what others have been saying.

So yeah I made this so that we could have an overall matchup discussion without clogging up our (dead) MU discussion thread.

I want to hear what you think, and with that in mind, here's what I say:

MK: 40-60
Snake: 50-50
Wario: 45-55
Falco: 35-65
Diddy: 45-55
DDD: 60-40

Marth: 45-55
GaW: 60-40
Pikachu: 50-50
Olimar: 40-60
Ice Climbers: 60-40
ROB: 65-35
Kirby: 60-40

Lucario: 45-55
ZSS: mirror
Toon Link: 55-45
Pit: 55-45
DK: 55-45

Peach: 55-45
Luigi: 50-50
Fox: 50-50
Wolf: 45-55
Sonic: 60-40
Sheik: 55-45

Bowser: 65-35
Zelda: 60-40
PT: 60-40
Ike: 60-40

Lucas: 60-40
Mario: 50-50
Ness: 55-45
Yoshi: 60-40
Samus: 60-40

Jigglypuff: 60-40
Captain Falco: 60-40
Link: 65-35
Ganon: 70-30

 

[NickRiddle]

MK: 40-60
Snake: 40-60
Wario: 50-50
Falco: 35-65
Diddy: ?
DDD: 70-30

Marth: 60-40
GaW: 60-40
Pikachu: 40-60
Olimar: ?
Ice Climbers: 50-50
ROB: 65-35
Kirby: 60-40

Lucario: 50-50
ZSS: mirror
Toon Link: 55-45
Pit: 55-45
DK: 70-30

Peach: 45-55
Luigi: 50-50
Fox: 50-50
Wolf: 60-40
Sonic: 60-40
Sheik: 55-45

Bowser: 75-25
Zelda: 60-40
PT: 50-50
Ike: 85-15

Lucas: 60-40
Mario: 60-40
Ness: 55-45
Yoshi: 60-40
Samus: 50-50

Jigglypuff: 60-40
Captain Falco: 70-30
Link: 70-30
Ganon: 75-25

 

[mountain_tiger]

Snake: 50-50
Falco: 35-65
DDD: 60-40
Marth: 50-50
GaW: 60-40
ROB: 65-35
Lucario: 45-55
ZSS: 50-50 (obviously)
DK: 60-40
Peach: 60-40
Sheik: 45-55
Bowser: 60-40
Zelda: 60-40
Captain Falcon: 65-35
Link: 65-35
Ganon: 75-25

As for everyone else, I don't really have enough MU experience toformulate a valid opinion.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

MK: 40-60
Wario: 45-55
DDD: 60-40
Marth: 40-60
GaW: 55-45
Olimar: 50-50
Ice Climbers: 60-40
Pit: 45-55

My input

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm trying to not use as many .5s

5 = even
4 = disadvantage
3 = soft counter
2 = hard counter
1 = infinite or impossible to win

MK: 4/6
Snake: 5/5
Diddy: 5/5
Wario: 5/5
Falco: 3/7
Dedede: 7/3

Marth: 4/6
GaW: 7/3
Pikachu: 5/5
Olimar: 4/6
ICs: 6/4
Kirby: 6/4 or 7/3
ROB: 9/1

Lucario: 7/3
ZSS: Mirror
Pit: 3/7
Toon Link: 6/4
DK: 7/3

Peach: 5/5
Luigi: 4/6
Fox: 5/5
Wolf: 4/6
Sonic: 6/4
Sheik: 3/7

Bowser: 8/2
Zelda: 4/6
PT: 6/4
Ike: 8/2

Lucas: 6/4
Mario: 5/5
Ness: 6/4
Yoshi: 5/5
Samus: 5/5

Jigglypuff: 6/4
Captain Falcon: 6/4
Link: 5/5
Ganon: 8/2

 

[NickRiddle]

I'm trying to not use as many .5s

5 = even
4 = disadvantage
3 = soft counter
2 = hard counter
1 = infinite or impossible to win

MK: 4/6
Snake: 5/5
Diddy: 5/5
Wario: 5/5
Falco: 3/7
Dedede: 7/3

Marth: 4/6
GaW: 7/3
Pikachu: 5/5
Olimar: 4/6
ICs: 6/4
Kirby: 6/4 or 7/3
ROB: 9/1

Lucario: 7/3
ZSS: Mirror
Pit: 3/7
Toon Link: 6/4
DK: 7/3

Peach: 5/5
Luigi: 4/6
Fox: 5/5
Wolf: 4/6
Sonic: 6/4
Sheik: 3/7

Bowser: 8/2
Zelda: 4/6
PT: 6/4
Ike: 8/2

Lucas: 6/4
Mario: 5/5
Ness: 6/4
Yoshi: 5/5
Samus: 5/5

Jigglypuff: 6/4
Captain Falcon: 6/4
Link: 5/5
Ganon: 8/2

Pit and Sheik 3/7?!

 

[noradseven]

So my goal for this thread is that we can all voice our opinions on matchups in one place. This is your opinion on our matchups, and while you should be ready to back up your opinion, don't feel like you have to go with what others have been saying.

So yeah I made this so that we could have an overall matchup discussion without clogging up our (dead) MU discussion thread.

I want to hear what you think, and with that in mind, here's what I say:

MK: 45-55
Snake: 40-60
Wario: 55-45
Falco: 35-65
Diddy: 45-55 *This match is close as hell, and is crazy fun.
DDD:70-30

Marth: 55-45 *our favor I still hold to this.
GaW: 60-40
Pikachu: 55-45 *I could go into this one its very close though 5-5 I can see.
Olimar: 40-60 *more like 0-100 am I rite, no thank god items exist otherwise I would put this at 35-65 or 30-70.
Ice Climbers: 60-40
ROB: 60-40 *seriously guys we don't actually **** rob unless you can do the d-smash head tap loop who here can do that in tourney conditions. :D. We win this but 1 mistake and whelp stock.
Kirby: 60-40

Lucario: 40-60 (lucario/zss is a weird fight for lucario... and zss to some degree)
ZSS: 100-0 (I always win , or alternatively ZSS always wins)
Toon Link: 55-45
Pit: 40-60 (personal thing almost I just don't see how this is easy)
DK: 65-35 (down B wrecks DK no joke)

Peach: 55-45
Luigi: 50-50 *grrr im in debate on this one.
Fox: 50-50 *I find it worse but I don't have enough exp in this matchup
Wolf: 55-45 *I find it easier...but I only know like 1 good wolf so, and its p. close to even still.
Sonic: 60-40
Sheik: 55-45

Bowser: 75-25
Zelda: 65-35
PT: 50-50 (squritle owns us hard )
Ike: 80-20 *This match is really bad for Ike, just don't screw up :D, thats what the 20 is for.

Lucas: 60-40
Mario: 60-40
Ness: 55-45
Yoshi: 60-40 *he is faster than us *tears but still not too bad.
Samus: 70-30 * Im the only decent samus, I play so IDK if you should trust this.

Jigglypuff: 60-40 *I hate this match but im not going to change these numbers
Captain Falcon: 70-30
Link: 65-35
Ganon: 75-25

my changes are in bold lol.
sfp good luck landing a d-smash that often, also have fun learning a character specfic infinite for a non problem character .

 

[Nefarious B]

Things I'm surprised with:

Nick and Norad saying we beat Marth. It's 50-50 at best in my mind, but I know I need more training in this matchup.

People saying we beat DDD so badly. I feel like it's just too easy to make a mistake and get owned to make it worse than 60-40

Nick saying Snake beats us

SFP saying we beat Lucario

Norad still failing at the ROB matchup

Peeps puttin Falcon as a 70/30

Anyone saying we beat Wario

 

[shlike]

k seriously how on earth does zss beat ike 85/15

seriously

she wins but its not THAT bad for ike

 

[shlike]

anyway here's my list

MK: 40-60
Snake: 50-50
Wario: 45-55
Falco: 40-60
Diddy: 45-55
DDD: 60-40

Marth: 55-45
GaW: 60-40
Pikachu: don't play many good pika's
Olimar: not enough experience
Ice Climbers: 55:45
ROB: 65-35
Kirby: 60-40

Lucario: 50-50
ZSS: mirror
Toon Link: 55-45
Pit: 55-45
DK: 60-40

Peach: 50-50
Luigi: 55-45
Fox: 55-45
Wolf: 50-50
Sonic: 60-40
Sheik: 55-45

Bowser: 70-30
Zelda: 60-40
PT:
Squirtle 40-60
Charizard 55-45
Ivysaur 65-35
Ike: 60-40

Lucas: 60-40
Mario: 60-40
Ness: 55-45
Yoshi: 60-40
Samus: 60-40

Jigglypuff: 55-45
Captain Falco: 60-40
Link: 60-40
Ganon: 70-30

 

[SASSY]

Alright here's what I got.

MK: 40-60
Snake: 45-55
Wario: 45-55
Falco: 40-60
Diddy: 45-55
DDD: 50-50

Marth: 45-55
GaW: 60-40
Pikachu: 50-50
Olimar: 40-60
Ice Climbers: 50-50
ROB: 60-40
Kirby: 50-50

Lucario: 40-60
ZSS: mirror
Toon Link: 50-50
Pit: 55-45
DK: 50-50

Peach: 45-55
Luigi: 50-50
Fox: 50-50
Wolf: 40-60
Sonic: 60-40
Sheik: 45-55

Bowser: 65-35
Zelda: 60-40
PT: 55-45
Ike: 60-40

Lucas: 50-50
Mario: 50-50
Ness: 55-45
Yoshi: 60-40
Samus: 50-50

Jigglypuff: 60-40
Captain Falco: 65-35
Link: 55-45
Ganon: 60-40

Personally, I don't feel that ZSS has any blow-away matches either way. You have to play smart with her to beat anyone good. I've played a really good version of almost every character. My crew actually has half low tier mains lol. There's 8 of us... We have a snake, d3, pikachu, zss (me!), lucas, mario, samus, and a ganon. They are all legit. They use their mains in tourneys and all that. I'll get into more specifics later. I'm still waiting on some videos to get uploaded. >_<

 

[CRASHiC]

I don't see how ZSS beats DDD 7-3. I mean, if NickRiddle was beating Co18 70 percent of the time or Snakeeee was beating Atomsk 70 percent of the time, then I'd see it, but I really don't see those kind of results coming out of it.

I mean, that's litterally what matchups mean, the likely hood of matches you are going to win out of a hundred matches.

 

[ph00tbag]

Since I've been a proponent of the system SFP is using for a long, long time, I'm going to use the same system.

---MK: 4/6
MK just has slight advantages in every aspect of the game. Simply put, he's a better character.
---Snake: 4/6
I'd put it at even if Snake weren't so heavy. Seriously, this ****er is impossible to KO.
---Diddy: 4/6
Diddy Kong is massively underrated.
---Wario: 5/5
Neither character can really do anything to the other. It's a boring match-up, really.
---Falco: 3/7
Bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.
---Dedede: 6/4
Slow fat-*** who really can't do much but grab you. It would be a counter if he weren't so heavy.

---Marth: 4/6
Similar concept to MK, he's just easier to punish if he screws up.
---GaW: 5/5
He's got a good pressure game and lives a long time, but poor mobility and lack of good kill set-ups makes life hard for him.
---Pikachu: 5/5
Tough match-up for both sides.
---Olimar: 4/6
Dumb range. Dumb attack power. Dumb character. If he weren't so easy to gimp, this would be a counter, IMO.
---ICs: 5/5
Bair and Plasma Whip can stuff their approach, but camping won't win you matches against good opponents. One grab=death, and IC's have a good grab set-up in Blizzard, which beats a lot of your options.
---Kirby: 6/4
ZSS just wins most of the exchanges in this match-up.
---ROB: 7/3
ROB doesn't have the options to deal with mid-range pressure and juggling. These are things that ZSS excels at.

---Lucario: ?
I don't know. Lucario is weird.
---ZSS: 10/0
ZSS always wins.
---Pit: 3/7 or 4/6
Pit camps better than Falco, and if he spaces his aerials right, there's very little we can do. He's easy to gimp, otherwise this would clearly be a counter. As it is, I'm not sure.
---Toon Link: 6/4 (maybe 7/3)
Dash attack and bair shut TL down hardcore. He can do nothing.
---DK: 7/3
DK gets bair camped hard.

---Peach: 5/5
Peach can camp you, and can punish hard. But then again, so can you. Both characters stuff aerial approaches, and neither has a reliable ground approach. Stalemate.
---Luigi: 5/5
ZSS's camping beats Luigi's camping. Luigi's approach beats ZSS's camping. ZSS's utilt and jab beat Luigi's approach. Luigi's camping beats ZSS's utilt and jab. Deadlock.
---Fox: 4/6
ZSS has no answer for lasers. She can really beat Fox up and gimp him if she traps him right, though.
---Wolf: 4/6
Wolf is harder to beat up than Fox, but his blaster isn't as dumb.
---Sonic: 6/4
Mostly I'm going off of the expertise of others. Sonic seems to be a fatally flawed character in that he really has no options. He can just hit you enough times to win if you're not careful.
---Sheik: 3/7
Sheik overwhelms ZSS with speed and pressure. This is a demoralizing match-up.

---Bowser: 8/2
Bowser gets camped harder than DK, and just doesn't have any options.
---Zelda: 6/4
Light weight, poor mobility, punishable moveset. Zelda just gets beat.
---PT: 6/4
Charizard and Ivysaur lose hard. Squirtle keeps the trio afloat.
---Ike: 8/2
Ike is about as bad as Bowser.

---Lucas: 5/5
Lucas can't really approach, but he's got good zoning. He also has the safest edgeguard in the game.
---Mario: 6/4
Mario has no ground approach, and has a terrible recovery.
---Ness: ?
I don't really know much about Ness.
---Yoshi: 5/5
Yoshi is tough to KO, and can put the hurt on you if he grabs you, but he doesn't really have much other than pivot grab on his side.
---Samus: 6/4
Samus is basically a really bad Toon Link.

---Jigglypuff: 7/3
Jigglypuff has a hard time approaching, and even if she hits you, she can't do much with that. Just hit her back.
---Captain Falcon: 7/3
Mostly, ZSS just out ranges Falcon and outcamps him.
---Link: 6/4
Link is basically a really bad Samus.
---Ganon: 8/2
Terrible mobility, punishable moveset, terrible recovery. Poor Ganon.

 

[NickRiddle]

Things I'm surprised with:

Nick and Norad saying we beat Marth. It's 50-50 at best in my mind, but I know I need more training in this matchup.
Get Marth off the level, and laugh as he tries to come on without taking AT LEAST one hit. That's if he guesses right, and we don't read him at all.

People saying we beat DDD so badly. I feel like it's just too easy to make a mistake and get owned to make it worse than 60-40
Any time you feel like you might make a mistake, you can run. Seriously, DDD is VERY slow.

Nick saying Snake beats us
Snake walks up to you slowly. Your option? Take it. (Or mindgame the hell out of him. Snake's range + nades destroy ANY option we have.)

SFP saying we beat Lucario

Norad still failing at the ROB matchup

Peeps puttin Falcon as a 70/30

Anyone saying we beat Wario

k seriously how on earth does zss beat ike 85/15

seriously

she wins but its not THAT bad for ike

This one is easy. Nothing Ike has is safe on ZSS. Plus, get him off the level, and if you know how to do it, he loses a stock.
Or takes ~60%.

 

[CRASHiC]

Serious question: what can Ganon do about neutral B spam?

 

[SASSY]

Powershield. It's honestly scary how my buddy plays. I guess he play the ZSS match-up the way I play the Falco match-up. He's just super patient and then has to read right once he's close. If he does, he deals a whole lot of damage. I'll have to put up a video, because if it weren't for him, I wouldn't believe anyone could win with ganon. It's not like any of you will actually face a high level ganon in tourney, but if you do, just don't get too aggressive!

 

[noradseven]

Serious question: what can Ganon do about neutral B spam?

Ganon is my number 2 trust me, backflip b-air, PS, its not hard, b-air/f-air are the main problems, but ZSS really doesn't have a 1 trick pony to beating ganon, he has an answer for everything we do, its just not a very good answer normally ha.

 

[NickRiddle]

vs. Ganon, can't you just play a reaction based style?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Things I'm surprised with:

People saying we beat DDD so badly. I feel like it's just too easy to make a mistake and get owned to make it worse than 60-40

7/3 is seriously just "soft counter." We soft-counter him, clearly enough I think.

SFP saying we beat Lucario

If you bait a single move out of him, it's like 50% and he can't do anything about it.

Once norad said to me "yea we own lucario until 100% because then his moves outrange ours." When I asked Snakeee what the match-up was in his opinion he's like "65/35 before 100% and like 35/65 at later percents" but this is just silliness because the match-up literally does not change at higher percents except for the fact that he knocks you back and kills you earlier, his range does not change.

In other words, uair ALWAYS BEATS his dair. Always. Every time. If the match-up is 65/35 before 100% it's 65/35 after. Or 7/3. Or whatever.

sfp good luck landing a d-smash that often, also have fun learning a character specfic infinite for a non problem character .

Yeah but welcome to theoretical match-up land, where the infinte exists, the ZSS player can perform it with ease, and ROB has a huge hurtbox and is one of the easier characters in the game to land it on.

Basically if you can't do or don't want to learn the infinite it's your problem in Theoretical Match-Up Land.

I don't see how ZSS beats DDD 7-3. I mean, if NickRiddle was beating Co18 70 percent of the time

I was under the impression that he does. Plus, again, 7/3 usually just means "soft counter" in fighting game circles.

Pit and Sheik 3/7?!

ZSS doesn't have the tools to go head to head with a good Pit player, and Sheik is still our worst match-up IMO.

 

[noradseven]

vs. Ganon, can't you just play a reaction based style?

Yeah p. much, but we have a low shield and ganon has some sweet shield pokes, also he knows our grab is **** and that hurts our big punish game. Its still terrible but I think its one of ganon's better matchups outside of the other trash tier characters.

 

[solecalibur]

Serious question: what can Ganon do about neutral B spam?

vs. Ganon, can't you just play a reaction based style?

I'll post a video of Fonz wrecking me later on that

Its all mind games and he is still a character it isn't like vsing your little Cousin they put thought into what they do
You also have to know a thing or two about the matchup its like how people underestimate our recovery

ROB: 60-40 *seriously guys we don't actually **** rob unless you can do the d-smash head tap loop who here can do that in tourney conditions. :D. We win this but 1 mistake and whelp stock.

Its not even learning the match up it just depends what kind of ROBs are in your area OS use to be the best ROB before he switched to meta so a couple people got tips from him about his ROB and it seems more 60/40 in that match up

 

[ph00tbag]

ROB isn't even a bad match-up for him because of the infinite. It's because ZSS has strong mid-range pressure, and ROB doesn't have the options to deal with it. Like most characters with good long-range games, ROB is designed to play keep-away, then use some gtfo move to reset the situation. Characters of this type have no option to respond to pressure. Add to this the fact that ROB is tremendously weak to juggling, and you see why ROB loses, and loses badly. It's the same reason he loses to Marth and MK, pretty much.

 

[noradseven]

ROB isn't even a bad match-up for him because of the infinite. It's because ZSS has strong mid-range pressure, and ROB doesn't have the options to deal with it. Like most characters with good long-range games, ROB is designed to play keep-away, then use some gtfo move to reset the situation. Characters of this type have no option to respond to pressure. Add to this the fact that ROB is tremendously weak to juggling, and you see why ROB loses, and loses badly. It's the same reason he loses to Marth and MK, pretty much.

I know its still 6-4 us, the main problem is robs weight, and the fact that because of his recovery style he has a actually good off edge game against us, I mean I do aton more damage to rob then he ever will do to me but its all about the kill.

 

[CRASHiC]

To those saying D3 is 7-3.

That means that its worse than ICs versus D3
Its worse than Falco versus D3
Its worse than Pika Versus D3

Does that really seem right at all?

 

[Nefarious B]

Intercept his up b with side b or nb and rob can literally do nothing since he can only aerial out of it. Bair usually trades with his bair, and if he's off stage he's just knocking you back on stage while he's more than likely dead.

 

[Jupz]

Wtf, Dedede does NOT have a 70/30 disadvantage to ZSS. I'm sick of you guys hyping up your character and its matchups to the point where your thinking she is a top 10 character in the game. She has ****ty aerials compared to most characters (paper thin hitboxes), she can't kill very well unless she lands a dsmash, has a **** grab. She is just a BAD character in general. FFS its getting rediculous. Shes fine on the tier list where she is now and she should probably be a bit lower.

Making a mistake means getting punished. If its at a neutral situation, sure you can run away, but that isn't making a mistake. You get Bthrown for 16%. Dedede is going to running shield approach you, tell me what are you going to do? If you go for a grab too often it can be predicted then lol dash attack or something. yes spaced Bairs are safe on shield but we can just move slightly out of the way and Ftilt. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Ftilt wrecks ZSS ground game, and if its well spaced I don't think it can be shieldgrabbed (not sure). Aerials aside from your Bair get beaten by lolbair. Juggling can even be semi avoided. Dedede's dair outranges ZSS Uair, but it doesn't end there. ZSS's UpB makes it tricky for DDD. However we can usually tell by her spacing below us which one she is going to use; its a blatant guess and we will probably take 1 or 2 hits before coming down, but if we guess right we can get down fairly safely. The kill percents are skewed to the point where ZSS has to do about 1.5x damage to DDD to even things out. I can actually see DDD having a problem with the armour pieces though. Actually thinking about it deeply now I can see in practice it could be anywhere from 55:45 to 45:55. The kill percents add 5 or 10 matchup points to DDD's favor, you have to remember that.

You guys are very good at looking at what ZSS options can beat their simpler options; but you have to think more deeply about it and think of which of their options can beat your better options. DDD's Ftilt is a saver here. Cancels neutral B I think aswell, giving Dedede the advantage midrange which is usually ZSS best range IIRC. Side B is easy to predict and powershield to grab.

I saw a remark that "all he can do is grab". I'm sorry but thats all King Dedede needs. His grabs do a rediculous amount of damage. A few Bthrows and tech chases and you will be in kill percents. If you try and take on DDD's grab, you WILL lose. Lol.

Both characters have a fairly hard time getting from the ledge to the stage yadda yadda yadda. However I think Dedede can rack up more damage from the situation then ZSS.

Thats just my take on the matchup, I'd like someone to debate it lol.

 

[CRASHiC]

One thing I'm instantly going to shoot down Jupz, ZSS has great aerials. Without an item in her hand, her ground moves are subpar. Her metagame basically revolves around her aerials. Backair has a disjoint if I remember correctly (sound familiar ;D ), and the others have good hitboxes and are great for spacing and pressure.

As for DDD is only grabs, I get what you are saying that we have grabs as a great tool and all of that, but it still isn't the only thing available in the matchup to us. In fact, ZSS has the tools to avoid the grabs in a lot of situations. D3's backair with its gigantic disjoint is wonderful, but can't be spammed. Neither party can spam aerials in this matchup really, as both have disjointed quick aerials to punish each other. DDDs are more disjointed, but ZSS has greater aerial maneuverability.

Now, D3 has more kill power and will live forever, but he also has trouble getting off some of his major kill moves like uptilt. ZSS can get her kill moves off easier, trouble is, most of them get really stale as she spaces.

D3 also has to play the beginning very carefully because of ZSS's chain grab, though it still doesn't put D3 anywhere near kill percent, but still helps her out a lot in the kill.

You mentioned forward tilt. What you also didn't mention is how great it is against ZSS's shield :D Love it. ZSS can not punish forward tilt on her shield.

As for getting back on stage, its about even. Both will have to be careful and fear getting killed earlier than normal, and both have trouble with pressure on getting back on from the edge, very similar to the pressure that D3 can put on a Marth on the edge, except both can do it in the matchup, gayyyy.

D3s best way to kill either bair or uptilt a poorly spaced aerial using its invincibility to push through the move. ZSS's best way is, well just to keep hitting until something happens hahahaha. Seriously. An example of this extreme, Co18 was at like 170, Nick at 100. Co18 back airs for the win.

I think the matchup is even to 55:45 ZSS's favor. Nothing by any means extreme.

 

[NickRiddle]

I will MM any DDD for any amount.

Also, Uair wrecks MK. :3

 

[ph00tbag]

To those saying D3 is 7-3.

That means that its worse than ICs versus D3
Its worse than Falco versus D3
Its worse than Pika Versus D3

Does that really seem right at all?

Actually what they're saying (correctly, I might add) is that 55/45 is just an inflated match-up number, and should just be 6/4. Thus 6/4 is also inflated and should just be 7/3.

When you rethink this, 3/7 becomes a lot less threatening.

 

[Zero]

blah blah blah I've never played against ZSS before

I didn't read it all, I stopped after I saw "****ty aerials". I really really wish I was going to SQUAT now.

 

[SummonerAU]

I agree with Jupz

ZZS is a **** character and you should just accept that.

 

[NickRiddle]

ZSS is terrible.
Except not really.

 

[ph00tbag]

ZZS is a **** character and you should just accept that.

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[SummonerAU]

ZSS is terrible.
Except not really.

ZZS*

Geez, you guys can't even name your main right

 

[Jupz]

I purposely put that in because all you guys say she has great aerials. Compare them to the top 10 characters in the game's aerials and see who they beat. The only one I can think of in the top 10 is probably pikachu and maybe snake. Just because she has fairly good aerial mobility and is floaty doesn't necessarily mean her aerials are that good. Ok maybe their not ****; but they aren't amazing either.

Mk's aerials crap on hers. (lolmk)
Snakes are about the same as hers, maybe a bit worse. However it is worse to use snakes aerials because his ground game is better, he's got bad aerial mobility (read: mobility is a different thing to speed) and he can't autocancel most of them out of a short hop. I know ZSS has a disjointed Bair, but when you compare the actual aerials to snakes and not the character traits theres a difference. They both have around the same range horizontally but snakes extends upwards and downwards and covers even much of his body. Not to mention it stays out for longer. However it does have massive landing lag so I would actually say ZSS aerials, although slightly less powerful are better then snakes. Snakes Uair is rediculous though.

Wario's aerials are slightly better; Uairs are about equal, with ZSS winnning in range and Warios in power; Wario's Dair takes the cake here, and his Nair is far more useful.

ZSS aerials are possibly better then falco's aswell. His Bair is more useful due to the larger hitbox. ZSS Uair outclasses falco. Not sure about Nair. ZSS fair is better but Falcos Dair is better. Both have one useless aerial (Fair, Dair).

I'm not sure if ZSS are better then Diddy's; Diddy's Fair is amazing, but his Nair is relatively useless. His uair is great although not as good as ZSS, its not too much worse; his Dair although not used often is better then ZSS.

Dedede's Bair has a huge hitbox and his Dair has great vertical range. Unfortunately he can't juggle and his Nair is relatively useless. Fair has great range. his are better then ZSS.

G&W's aerials are quite obviously better.

As are marths.

ZSS are probably better then pikachus (not to say pikachu has bad aerials)

And IDK about olimars. Olimars are probably slightly better. His Uair is probably better as is his Fair, his Bair is probably slightly worse.



ZSS is an amazing juggler, possibly the second best in the game (lolmk)

But she is susceptible to being juggled herself. People need to learn the concept of vertical spacing to beat her aerials. Its similar to toon links Zair: amazing range horizontally but not vertically. Once she shorthops, dedede isn't going to sit in his shield and wait for her to land an unpunishable spaced Bair on his shield. He's going to walk away and Ftilt the landing or he's going to short hop Bair on reaction (because ZSS has a relatively high short hop, she has to wait until she's coming down to use Bair or it won't hit), which will hit because it has more vertical range then ZSS bair.

I just want to know, what options does ZSS have to a Dedede who simply sits in his shield at mid range and adjusts his spacing by walking while often poking with Ftilt? Just think about the simplest things before you get complex.

 

[Zero]

MK - Say hello to UAIR.
Snake - I dare you to play with ZSS in the air with Snake. I dare you.
Wario - Uair beats all aerials, good day.
Falco - I think it's a stalemate here, with uair trading with dair often (correct me on this?)
Diddy - Uair
G&W - Uair beats Key
Marth - Tough question
Pikachu - We beat Pika in the air.
Olimar - Hmm... not too sure.

I just want to know, what options does ZSS have to a Dedede who simply sits in his shield at mid range and adjusts his spacing by walking while often poking with Ftilt?

We can just stand back and wait for you to approach?

 

[Jupz]

What?????? That didn't make any sense at all.

Read my post next time plox.

MK doesn't need to get above ZSS to **** her. So, her Uair beats MK's Dair? Well done. Now what about the rest of the aerials? Your bair might be slightly better as well, but surely you aren't going to try and argue that ZSS Nair>MK's, or Dair? individually, ALL MK's aerials except Bair are better then ZSS respective aerials. And yes, MK's Uair is better then ZSS. ZSS's can be airdodged, MK's can't.

I'm not even going to bother replying to all of those. You've gone ahead and listed your best aerial against the opponents (usually) worst. Please think about all the aerials in future.

Also, if were including character traits such as aerial mobility and speed, then yes ZSS does beat snake in the air. However then Wario quite clearly beats her too. Wario is amazing at avoiding juggles.

I've loled at what you've put down for G&W. What about all the other aerials? G&W clearly outclasses ZSS in the air, even more if you include aerial mobility (which I wasn't before, I was just looking at aerials characteristics). Same with Diddy.

Just because you have one good aerial doesn't mean you beat other characters in the air. You only looked at vertical spacing. Most characters aren't even going to try and attack you when they're above you, they're going to get down to the ground. Uair is in general probably the least important aerial for any character due to the fact it can't be used when both characters are at a neutral situation (unless one character is air camping), unlike all other aerials. This makes it the only situational aerial. (not situational as most people talk about it, I just mean unlike other aerials which can be used whether the opponent is grounded or airbourne, Uair can't. Situational probably isn't the best word for it, but I couldn't think of anything else
Anyway the point of that was to get you to see you've missed out the most important "aerial matchup": horizontal aerials. Which is what I covered in my above posts. And yes I know the opponent will be above you quite often, which is why Uair is still very important to every character. But not as much as when the match will be at a neutral situation.

And please don't just say that for the Ftilt problem. For one, Dedede has longer range. he can just sit there poking you with Ftilt all day, not a thing you can do about it. He outranges you, you're going to have to either back off or approach. Don't go into forced approaches when your character doesn't have a projectile that can do the job. It's assuming you have the lead.

 

[Zero]

I don't need to list the other aerials because just one does the job. I really don't need to, or feel like, theorycrafting with you. I'll let you think that you can simply ftilt and see how you do when a half decent ZSS storms up Perth's scene.

 

[Jupz]

I don't need to list the other aerials because just one does the job.

How does it fair against moves like Marth/MK's Fair, G&W's Bair etc. horizontally? it doesn't. when a marth is spacing fair on you, you aren't going to charge in with a Uair. you only listed Uair against the opponents Dair in most cases.

I really don't need to, or feel like, theorycrafting with you. I'll let you think that you can simply ftilt and see how you do when a half decent ZSS storms up Perth's scene.

ok

 

[SummonerAU]

I'm pretty sure sideb outranges most of what has been listed her.

So guys, is it okay if I spam this thread? I don't even care about ZSS ZZS