NickRiddle
#negativeNick
PS > Buffer turn-around grab. Or, when I'm above him, he'll utilt/uair/nair. If I AD, He hits me in my landing lag. if I double jump, he's not harmed, and I cannot hit him.
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ZSS Matchup Ratios
- Thread starter Nefarious B
- Start date
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Make no mistake, abusing SH baiting as is popular is a bad idea vs fast characters like mk and pika because the pitential for frame trapping is too great. You land, and get grabbed like every time.
Given that zss' ground game is really bad and pika is too short to hit with rising aerials, I can't imagine ZSS winning this matcup with out heavy camping and even then Pikachu can get around it with QAC and superior mobility.
Given that zss' ground game is really bad and pika is too short to hit with rising aerials, I can't imagine ZSS winning this matcup with out heavy camping and even then Pikachu can get around it with QAC and superior mobility.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
ZSS' ground game is considered bad? I always thought it was OK, though nothing compared to her air game obviously... Why is it considered poor exactly?
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Hence, it is 35:65.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
It is better in some matchups than others.
I played him too much on wifi, that's why he beats you lol, jk. The matchup could be much different on wifi as I never lost to him on it. I wonder if YI is a bad stage for pikachu as he always didn't do so well on it.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
wifi =/= offline.
It's harder to react to ZSS's punishable moves on wifi.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Yoshi vs ZSS in reallly messed up
noradseven
Smash Lord
I know the pika/ZSS fight extremely well, what exactly is the pika doing that is givign you such trouble, also pika yeah running u-smash/grab beats are shorthoppy stuff, just leave that second jump around, and get good at doing down Bs, n-air can be used to stuff that **** too and its sorta tricky, try to hug the ground against pikachu, we can beat pika on the ground.
I like to imagine pikachu as a shoto, in SF, aka DON'T JUMP AT HIM, if he is on the ground or about to be on the ground, just slowly get around the fireballs(thundershocks lol), then poke him.
I like to imagine pikachu as a shoto, in SF, aka DON'T JUMP AT HIM, if he is on the ground or about to be on the ground, just slowly get around the fireballs(thundershocks lol), then poke him.
pretty much, wifi isn't as PS heavy as offline either, also pro tip on spacers if you shield at the first moment they could hit you, you either PS or you regular shield, works wonders against melee spacers.
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
What do you mean? The favor of Yoshi is mostly because of the Grab Release and the Back Air that can really annoy ZSS. Although the matchup is pretty messed up indeed, because good spacing ZSS (well, like every good ZSS) wil easily avoid getting grabbed. Like in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGpIVgyncrQ
noradseven
Smash Lord
Its our favor but we gotta be careful hehe.
D
Deleted member
Guest
No i didnt mean ur ratio is messed up.
I mean the matchup is ******** xD
I 2-0d warpstatus in pools yesterday, then he beat me in losers 2-1 last hit. It was like I combo him for 50% he combos me for 80, then ZSS cant kill unless i mispress something, then it starts over again.
Grab release does like no damage, its not a big factor.
I mean the matchup is ******** xD
I 2-0d warpstatus in pools yesterday, then he beat me in losers 2-1 last hit. It was like I combo him for 50% he combos me for 80, then ZSS cant kill unless i mispress something, then it starts over again.
Grab release does like no damage, its not a big factor.
noradseven
Smash Lord
*FYI this is alot of matches for ZSS...
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
10 chars
noradseven
Smash Lord
how the hell do we lose to him on the ground, everything he does can be punished easily, and if he jumps, we jump. Lower person in the air wins.
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
When Pikachu jumps, its to full hop a thunderbolt or to do a fastall forward air to combo out. I think forwaird air has pretty high priority (from Pikachu) so I don't know if it can be countered. And when you fast fall the Forwar Air, you get 2 of the 3 hits, wich means that he has the exact hitstun to combo out of it.
It can also Pikastorm, wich is the same as Ganonstorming. Short Hop immediality C-Stick down, so you get a now lag Down Air. (You knew this already ofcourse.. But telling anyway.) Also bere in mind that Pikachu's Neutral Air is fast.. Like, really fast.
But I don't really know the priority of ZSS and Pikachu, so I can't decide.
It can also Pikastorm, wich is the same as Ganonstorming. Short Hop immediality C-Stick down, so you get a now lag Down Air. (You knew this already ofcourse.. But telling anyway.) Also bere in mind that Pikachu's Neutral Air is fast.. Like, really fast.
But I don't really know the priority of ZSS and Pikachu, so I can't decide.
noradseven
Smash Lord
u-air/f-air(tricky) beats f f-air, only move it loses too is d-air which is a gamble for pikachu if we delay, especially cause it trades a decent bit of the time.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
WHy is Pikachu ever attacking first? A reactionary style vs. ZSS works with Pika.
noradseven
Smash Lord
our air game is more unsafe then our ground against pika. Also reactionary style works well against ZSS with everyone.
One of the main problems I have pikachu is what his u-smash does to our air spacing game, it drops his hitbox so low grrr. Thats why I try to stay on the ground and bait reactions.
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
I even think a Full Hopped Thunderbolt wil ruin half our spacing game.
It wil jump over the plasma whip, and has far more range then the stun gun, so we have pretty much no other choice then approaching with an arial. If the Pikachu knows the matchup, it will find a way around that. Pikastorming, I geuss.
I secondary Pikachu. He can really punish any mistake with a grab. And when youre grabt, your gonna get down throw, up tilt, en then follow up moves. Pikachu can always keep its range, and still ruin our spacing game. The matchup is defenitly in favor of Pikachu.
Up smash and uptilt will bove do the same thing. Altough the dference is that up Smash can be done out of a run, and that up tilt can be combo't out of.
It wil jump over the plasma whip, and has far more range then the stun gun, so we have pretty much no other choice then approaching with an arial. If the Pikachu knows the matchup, it will find a way around that. Pikastorming, I geuss.
I secondary Pikachu. He can really punish any mistake with a grab. And when youre grabt, your gonna get down throw, up tilt, en then follow up moves. Pikachu can always keep its range, and still ruin our spacing game. The matchup is defenitly in favor of Pikachu.
Up smash and uptilt will bove do the same thing. Altough the dference is that up Smash can be done out of a run, and that up tilt can be combo't out of.
noradseven
Smash Lord
Actually its a bad idea and you shouldn't do it that much, 90% of the pikas I wrecked started the match like okay I don't know what to do, thunderbolt spacing, yeah no, its better than trying QAC all over ZSS though, TERRIBLE IDEA PIKAS stop doing it.
You beat it by getting realitivly close to pika then you can over B(first hit eat), or just do it the easy way, jump f-air(first hit eat), PS till you get close Thunder bolts are crazy easy to PS.
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
Aside from that, insange edge game, inclusive the Edgehog Thunder wil ruin our up B, and Neutral Air will keep us away from the edge.
noradseven
Smash Lord
by inclusive thunder edgehog, you mean down Bing then grabbing the edge right. Its a tricky thing totime right as a pika, plus other wise, you can down B though the bolt, if your too low, just up B the ledge and immediatly pull in, and take the hit, pika shouldn't be able to stop your recovery this time. in many ways its a better idea if pika just QACs to the ledge, this is what gets me killed not the edgehog thunders
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
Well, thats how I edgegaurded my friends ZSS a few times.
But we shouldn't worry about it too much, from my expierence, I have seen that my Pikachu has more screen ko's then ko's from edguarding.
But we shouldn't worry about it too much, from my expierence, I have seen that my Pikachu has more screen ko's then ko's from edguarding.
noradseven
Smash Lord
For the most part this, but still a QAC edge hog can be deadly if we get launched the wrong way.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
The main reasons Pikachu beats ZSS (I dunno about 65/35, I think 6/4 seems about right though) are:
His dtilt owns our entire ground game
QAC kills our camping game
Our air game is better, but getting him above us is pretty hard
I dunno Nick, I think that you'll eventually go "oh I figured out a way to compete" and come back and say it isn't as bad as you thought, just like Snakeee does all the time with MK, heh. But it's still 6/4 Pikachu.
I want to talk about Peach, because I think I'm the only ZSS with strong Peach experience these days and I think the match-up is terrible, Dark.pch wrecks the ever-loving **** out of me. It might be a matter of me just not knowing what to do, but I have beaten better players than him in Tournaments and friendlies both and his Peach just rages me, it isn't pretty at all. I get so mad that I just start playing zombie mode (Ie not trying lol).
Peach just has godly un-counterable shield pressure and ZSS folds really badly to it, there's no incentive for Peach to ever stop attacking. ZSS' camping game is literally no threat to Peach's ability to approach and her camping game is better anyways so you have to approach her. Or I guess you don't, but turnips aren't THAT bad.
Maybe someone else who has played a Peach as good can help me out here lol
His dtilt owns our entire ground game
QAC kills our camping game
Our air game is better, but getting him above us is pretty hard
I dunno Nick, I think that you'll eventually go "oh I figured out a way to compete" and come back and say it isn't as bad as you thought, just like Snakeee does all the time with MK, heh. But it's still 6/4 Pikachu.
I want to talk about Peach, because I think I'm the only ZSS with strong Peach experience these days and I think the match-up is terrible, Dark.pch wrecks the ever-loving **** out of me. It might be a matter of me just not knowing what to do, but I have beaten better players than him in Tournaments and friendlies both and his Peach just rages me, it isn't pretty at all. I get so mad that I just start playing zombie mode (Ie not trying lol).
Peach just has godly un-counterable shield pressure and ZSS folds really badly to it, there's no incentive for Peach to ever stop attacking. ZSS' camping game is literally no threat to Peach's ability to approach and her camping game is better anyways so you have to approach her. Or I guess you don't, but turnips aren't THAT bad.
Maybe someone else who has played a Peach as good can help me out here lol
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Well, tell us what owns you, and we will throw hypothetical crap at you, just like everybody, except Norad, did to me.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
It's difficult to explain, there are a ton of (very old, but probably not so inaccurate) videos of me getting wrecked my him on YouTube. Try to watch the newer ones but I've gotten a lot better even since those.
EDIT: please do not watch those terrible videos, i thought there were newer ones
EDIT: please do not watch those terrible videos, i thought there were newer ones
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
I play a reasonable peach every once in a while and I think that the mu is pretty evenish. usmash is pretty awesome, floating is not a smart idea as we can get her out of it real fast with or usmash. Her shield pressure is insane on every character and zss doesn't have it worse then other charas (read falco) lol, you can't shieldgrab her anyway.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Xonar, not to knock you or your friend but the difference between a "reasonable" Peach and Dark.pch who is possibly (probably) the best Peach in the world is really huge.
If I'm standing near the edge and am forced to shield, it's either a broken shield or a fat fair, every time. Peach can punish any action I perform out of shield with an on-reaction attack of her choice. ZSS' only OOS option viable in this match-up is utilt and that comes with the obvious utilt problems. The shield pressure problem in this match-up is markedly more pronounced than it is in other match-ups, both for Peach and ZSS respectively. Because Peach's jab is 2 frames, she can autocancel dair, autocancel fair jab jab and then you are absolutely FORCED to move or your shield will break. If I attempt to move before the fair, there are a myriad of other options Peach has. Peach is just a very high-option character in this match-up.
And yeah, usmash is great for punishing predictable floating, but not great for punishing dair. Yes, uair beats dair barely but really, Dark.pch never uses dair as an approach so "punishing" it isn't an option at all. Nair is better at "beating" dair approaches btw than uair, because it hits Peach's head which is the only part of Peach that isn't a hitbox during that attack.
The ONLY place ZSS beats Peach is when she's very high in the air, and I will give you that it is very easy to juggle Peach compared to other characters. It isn't really because of the airdodge (which isn't a huge problem for great Peach players like Ulysses) but because of her slow air speed both vertically and horizontally.
And yes, there are a lot of uses for ZSS' grab (yes I know you were talking about shieldgrabbing) like grabbing Peach out of Peach bomber (lolololol)
With that said I know Edrees and Praxis both think it's in ZSS' favor and Snakeee thinks it's 6/4 us so what do I know
If I'm standing near the edge and am forced to shield, it's either a broken shield or a fat fair, every time. Peach can punish any action I perform out of shield with an on-reaction attack of her choice. ZSS' only OOS option viable in this match-up is utilt and that comes with the obvious utilt problems. The shield pressure problem in this match-up is markedly more pronounced than it is in other match-ups, both for Peach and ZSS respectively. Because Peach's jab is 2 frames, she can autocancel dair, autocancel fair jab jab and then you are absolutely FORCED to move or your shield will break. If I attempt to move before the fair, there are a myriad of other options Peach has. Peach is just a very high-option character in this match-up.
And yeah, usmash is great for punishing predictable floating, but not great for punishing dair. Yes, uair beats dair barely but really, Dark.pch never uses dair as an approach so "punishing" it isn't an option at all. Nair is better at "beating" dair approaches btw than uair, because it hits Peach's head which is the only part of Peach that isn't a hitbox during that attack.
The ONLY place ZSS beats Peach is when she's very high in the air, and I will give you that it is very easy to juggle Peach compared to other characters. It isn't really because of the airdodge (which isn't a huge problem for great Peach players like Ulysses) but because of her slow air speed both vertically and horizontally.
And yes, there are a lot of uses for ZSS' grab (yes I know you were talking about shieldgrabbing) like grabbing Peach out of Peach bomber (lolololol)
With that said I know Edrees and Praxis both think it's in ZSS' favor and Snakeee thinks it's 6/4 us so what do I know
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
I don't care, I get a feel of peach wether he's reasonable or ****in overpowered.
Peach is not fast enough to catch rolls, honestly just try to keep shield till you got so much shieldpushback that you can drop it or do a spotdodge to pivotfrontroll or whatever, just use shield to reset, thats what I do in the mu.
Peach is not fast enough to catch rolls, honestly just try to keep shield till you got so much shieldpushback that you can drop it or do a spotdodge to pivotfrontroll or whatever, just use shield to reset, thats what I do in the mu.
noradseven
Smash Lord
d-tilt is frame 4 and ducks high's :D
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
dtilt is frame 5 and doesn't duck peach's jab
noradseven
Smash Lord
awww it doesn't *sadface
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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False. Peach is fast enough to catch rolls. If you are getting pressured to a point you have to roll, I can point point where you would roll. And if I guess correctly, I can catch you to an attack or grab.If I am on you shield and pounding you with moves you have to roll to get away. You spot touch, you leave yourself open. Short hopped Dairs abuse Spot dodges so way. One of the best moves in the game to punish it. If you side step my move is still out even after ZSS sidestep animation ends. And the only punishment you have out of shield is her uptilt. But this is if Peach wants to stay over you and pound your shield with mutiple Dairs. So inbetween them, ZSS can uptilt and hit her out of it. If I short hop and pressure you, ZSS cant do anything except roll.
I say this match up is even. But NOW that I have been study frame data with my character and in general. I'm starting to think Peach might have a slight advantage. ZSS Has better kill set ups Than Peach and can win most of the air fights. Peach can beat her in the air but it is hard to do. ZSS has an easier time hitting me.
On the ground, Peach withs. Same time she can bring her air game to the ground for more pressure. And her spacing is hard to deal with when done on point.
Edgeguarding is another battle Peach wins this. Me abusing ledge frames with her float, attacks and turnip cancels off stage, Peach can make it a ***** for ZSS to make it back on the stage. Sje can be gimped and abuse invinc frames so Peach can guard the ledge longer. If you try to come back with a D-B, time Fsmashes or simple way, Uptilt takes care of that.
I think I might change my mind from learning about frames, hit boxes and all that stuff I studied that Peach beats ZSS.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I'm not sure how good FL Peach players are, but I do not think that this matchup is in Peach's favor at all. Probably 55:45 ZSS, or worse in our favor.
Mind you, my opinion means nothing, I just felt the mood to contradict. :3
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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-A short hup duration is about 6 frames: How quick is her upair
-No she does not. I can time my ayyacks correactly, I go through your moves. Your air starts from below her. My Dairs starts from below her. If I time her attack correcly, I beat your Uair. And if you in the air and wanna battle me while my back is turned, if her Bair and Fair don't come out in 6 frames or less, I can beat you in the air with my Bair (6 frames) Peach can win air battles with ZSS. ZSS has a better time winning them. So no, she does not 100% win them. And Peach should not be focusing trying to hit you all the time in the air. When I get sent in the air, I just pull away from you and recover low or go near a platfrom for evasion.
-No, if I sweetspot well, you are not gonna get a Dsmash off me to a D-B spike.I just grab the ledge. And outside of Dsmash, just what are you gonna gimp me with even I recover low?
-No she does not. I can time my ayyacks correactly, I go through your moves. Your air starts from below her. My Dairs starts from below her. If I time her attack correcly, I beat your Uair. And if you in the air and wanna battle me while my back is turned, if her Bair and Fair don't come out in 6 frames or less, I can beat you in the air with my Bair (6 frames) Peach can win air battles with ZSS. ZSS has a better time winning them. So no, she does not 100% win them. And Peach should not be focusing trying to hit you all the time in the air. When I get sent in the air, I just pull away from you and recover low or go near a platfrom for evasion.
-No, if I sweetspot well, you are not gonna get a Dsmash off me to a D-B spike.I just grab the ledge. And outside of Dsmash, just what are you gonna gimp me with even I recover low?
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Uair is 3 or 4 frames I think.
Frame data is not all there is to attacks. Range/hitboxes play a big role, and I'm pretty sure ZSS's are better.
D-smash can hit a sweet-spotted parasol, if I time it/space it correctly. From there, I footstool you. GG.