ZSS Matchup Ratios

[Zero]

AFAIK our BAIR hits through GnW's. I didn't list uair against an opponent's DAIR, that's presumptuous. I listed uair.

About Marth, did you suddenly forget about the mid-range spammy thing? OOS uair/jab works p. well against Marth too, I suspect. Will try that on Monday against Shaya.

 

[Jupz]

But if marth spaces his Fair right you won't be able to jab OOS/Uair and hit him.

 

[Zero]

I could most certainly dash forward, jump and uair him, on perfect spacing. No need to dash on imperfect spacing.

 

[Jupz]

Really? I'd like to see the frame data on that.

(by perfect spacing, I mean tippered)

 

[Kofu]

Regardless I think we can say that ZSS's UAir and BAir are among the best aerials in the game.

I know from being on the receiving end.

 

[Nixernator]

Jupz seriously do some research. I've just zoned in on what you've said about GnW tbh. GnW's only good (ONLY) aerial is Nair. Did you know I'd rather get hit by the first hit of Bair then shield it? Its that NOT GOOD, you can DI out and hit with pretty much any attack you want. His Fair is lol, Dair is good for mindgames (and stuff) and his Uair is weird. Not sure how to rank that as an aerial.

It also appears that you need to do research about ZSS's Nair. Seriously, go do it right now. Then go play, use Nair and be amazed at how good it is. It goes through other aerials and hits, it clanks, it combos, it hits at angles that can't be punished. In short its amazing.

I'm not going to be presumptuous, ZSS isn't that good a character ok? But her air game is top class. Uair is seriously amazing, her Uair beats Kirby's Bair just for a helpful example to the folks playing at home. Fair deals 17% fresh I believe, bair is good and cancels, and Dair is.... Ok Dair sucks. A lot.

I'll go through the list of top 10 and put my spin on aerial MU's.
MK: Yeah I'm going with MK as he ***** in all directions and has Lol gimp on his Dair
Snake: Hahahahahaha no. ZSS destroys snakes Aerials, more range, safe on block. Canceling faster the list goes on. In no way is Snake's aerials better (except damage wise obviously)
Wario: Another tough one but from experience ZSS is better in almost all departments, Wario's Dair is obviously a better Dair. But ZSS has better horizontal range, Nair's weird angle, far better Uair.
Falco: I dunno but I'm still going to go with ZSS for superior range on all aerials.
Diddy: ZSS is faster, has more range, and better priority and all that. Definitely better aerials.
D3: Lol he has more range on his Dair and thats about it. They're also slow, telegraphed and the only one worth mentioning aside from Dair is Bair. Which is similar to ZSS's bair but definitely not as good as her Uair.
GnW: I've already covered this.
Marth: Weird and I'm going with marth, superior disjoints and range I believe. Sword characters make me sad
Pika: Definitely ZSS, she beats him in the air easily
Olimar: He has aerials?

Not mentioned in most of those is the fact that ZSS is a superior comboer to most of those chars (with the possible exception of MK) in the air. Her Uair links to MOAR UAIR and Nair sets up combos. Also is the fact that ZSS forces AD's a lot and punishes them. (and in the case of Uair you have to beat it straight up as I don't think it can be AD if the ZSS is doing it right)

Long story short, go play a good ZSS, or watch some videos of ZSS, or just do some research and then come back here when you know what the hell you are talking about.
kthxbai

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Marths FF fair is -4 frame advantage, you can't punish it.

For the rest, Jupz is an idiot olololololo

 

[Jupz]

Ehh most of the top 10's "aerial matchups" are debatable.

Also ZSS Uair is amazing but its slightly overrated by you guys. Its not better then Dedede's Bair for sure. in fact, although they have approx. the same disjointedness, its much worse simply because its hitbox is facing up and not horizontally, meaning it can't be used as effectively at neutral situations. Dedede's also lasts longer I think (have to see frame data).

I'll give up on debating aerials because its not what I came in here to do. I've read the guide and its very nice and helpful (although I don't like how it talks about "priority"). Also watched several videos. I can understand how she has evenish matchups in the high tier but she gets wrecked by MK IMO.

Can someone explain why they have a supposed advantage on IC's aswell pls?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ehh most of the top 10's "aerial matchups" are debatable.

Also ZSS Uair is amazing but its slightly overrated by you guys. Its not better then Dedede's Bair for sure. in fact, although they have approx. the same disjointedness, its much worse simply because its hitbox is facing up and not horizontally, meaning it can't be used as effectively at neutral situations. Dedede's also lasts longer I think (have to see frame data).

I'll give up on debating aerials because its not what I came in here to do. I've read the guide and its very nice and helpful (although I don't like how it talks about "priority"). Also watched several videos. I can understand how she has evenish matchups in the high tier but she gets wrecked by MK IMO.

Can someone explain why they have a supposed advantage on IC's aswell pls?

Uair is actually pretty large, probably covers a half circle above zero suit + her hurtbox becomes pretty darn small

She has an advantage against IC cause she can avoid grabs well, and beat IC in the rest

And how does she get wrecked by MK? Her Uair beats his dair, snakeee's brother is a mk and probably has the most zss experience in the world. If snakeee says its 60/40 it IS 60/40

 

[Jupz]

Well I don't mean wrecked (probably worded that wrong) but I though it was around the 60:40 mark, maybe 65:35. I was just looking at the ratios in this thread, never knew Snakeee said it was that big an advantage. I just can't see what options she has to defeat an aggressive MK spacing with tilts on the ground. The last hit of his ftilt hits quite hit and so can cover air approaches quite well. His tilts beat hers on the ground too. He can also limit her options on the ledge very well and juggle her fairly well.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Flip jump > Juggling

ZSS is way to airbourne to ground approach effectively, with a jump as high as yoshis DJ, a flip jump, overall great air speed etc.

 

[CRASHiC]

Actually what they're saying (correctly, I might add) is that 55/45 is just an inflated match-up number, and should just be 6/4. Thus 6/4 is also inflated and should just be 7/3.

When you rethink this, 3/7 becomes a lot less threatening.

This may be true for other communities, but this is Smash, where 7-3 = 9-1 on other sites. 7-3 is the number we give Luigi, who D3 has an infintie on. There simply is no way that could be the correct number.

 

[ph00tbag]

Jupz, name the best ZSS you've played.

this is Smash, where 7-3 = 9-1 on other sites. 7-3 is the number we give Luigi, who D3 has an infintie on. There simply is no way that could be the correct number.

And that's wrong~

 

[CRASHiC]

I don't know how else I can say this other than that every other 70-30 matchup on this site is in no way equal to the D3 versus ZSS matchup. If Luigi, who gets very easily infintied by DDD, can then be chain grabbed the edge of the stage, and then edge guarded to death is a 75-25 matchup, ZSS is in no way 7-3 with D3. Its an impossibly overinflated number.

Also, Jupz is from Australia. I don't know if they have any good ZSSes there.

 

[NickRiddle]

I don't know how else I can say this other than that every other 70-30 matchup on this site is in no way equal to the D3 versus ZSS matchup. If Luigi, who gets very easily infintied by DDD, can then be chain grabbed the edge of the stage, and then edge guarded to death is a 75-25 matchup, ZSS is in no way 7-3 with D3. Its an impossibly overinflated number.

Also, Jupz is from Australia. I don't know if they have any good ZSSes there.

That's because the other boards do not want to give anything worse than 7-3. Plus, the infinite is kinda banned i most places, so they might not take it into account.
IMO DDD vs. people he infinites is 90-10.
DDD vs. people he Small-Step CGs is 80-20.
And, I think ZSS beats DDD worse than Pikachu.

 

[CRASHiC]

It does take into account the infinite.
But worse than ICs?

 

[NickRiddle]

It does take into account the infinite.
But worse than ICs?

TBH, I don't know the IC DDD matchup. From what I hear from Seibrik, he doesn't think it's too bad, so I'm going with that.

 

[ph00tbag]

Also, Jupz is from Australia. I don't know if they have any good ZSSes there.

Zero's from Melbourne iirc, and he apparently does alright. Although there's a huge desert between Melbourne and Perth, so I doubt Zero's ever played Jupz.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Zero's from Melbourne iirc, and he apparently does alright. Although there's a huge desert between Melbourne and Perth, so I doubt Zero's ever played Jupz.

Even then Australias metagame is underdeveloped compared to America. They got the game later and don't have as many people to play with etc..

 

[CRASHiC]

TBH, I don't know the IC DDD matchup. From what I hear from Seibrik, he doesn't think it's too bad, so I'm going with that.

No offense to Seibrik, I take everything he says to heart unless someone proves him otherwise, but on that particular statement, I'm going to hold out and wait to see his theory on the matchup work against Meep or Lain or another top IC, which to my knowledge, neither Co18 or Seibrik have played. Co18 beat a IC at WHOBO, but the IC messed up their grab.

 

[noradseven]

The main reason why I think we do decent against MK is we can fight him in the air, and we make all of his **** that is normally safe unsafe, I mean nado/upB/overB(lol)/d-smash/flight slash, are unsafe against ZSS that gives us a huge advantage over most characters in this fight, combine that with without using flight MK is ungodly slow in the air means he is easier to juggle then about 1/2 the cast.

That's because the other boards do not want to give anything worse than 7-3. Plus, the infinite is kinda banned i most places, so they might not take it into account.
IMO DDD vs. people he infinites is 90-10.
DDD vs. people he Small-Step CGs is 80-20.
And, I think ZSS beats DDD worse than Pikachu.

Yep when I write matchups on smashboards I have them adjusted to the way you guys think about them not the actual odds of winning them, to get better estimates increase the difference between the two by 30% on either side and it will be about dead on, aka MK ZSS would be closer to 6:4 MK because I think MK wins 60% of the time...doesn't mean it isn't a good match however on smash boards 6-4 is considered a bad match when on most fighters is just considered yeah 1 dude has an advantage but it still mostly comes down to who can play their character better.

 

[NickRiddle]

No offense to Seibrik, I take everything he says to heart unless someone proves him otherwise, but on that particular statement, I'm going to hold out and wait to see his theory on the matchup work against Meep or Lain or another top IC, which to my knowledge, neither Co18 or Seibrik have played. Co18 beat a IC at WHOBO, but the IC messed up their grab.

DOWN-AIR!
This thread is stale.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ummm.

The reason I posted the key on my post is so that we could try to avoid this very dicussion. In brawl, we're afraid of offending people and afraid of making numbers too big, so we use .5s and 55s when they aren't necessary. In the brawl community, we view 6/4 as a "soft counter" when in reality 7/3 is really closer to "soft counter." There are games much more balanced than brawl with more 7/3 match-ups, proportionately speaking. What you use .5s for is stuff like Kirby, a legit 6.5/3.5 where he's in-between soft and hard counter.

On any scale, Zero Suit Samus is a soft counter to King Dedede. Use whatever numbers you want, that is what you should have taken away from my post. I think Nick Riddle believes her to be a harder counter, not sure. Hell, I don't even agree that he can own her recovery, she owns his harder.

I am guilty sometimes of over-hyping ZSS (and know that now especially after playing players who are much better than I am) but not by much (I think she's still top 10, but don't think top 10 is very good, for instance when was the last time Pikachu or Olimar won a regional?) and I'm definitely not overhyping uair. Her uair is the best aerial in the game, technically, and can beat anything when spaced correctly. I think that for practical purposes it can be hard to actually beat some things (Peach's dair, as an example) but on paper, it has the potential to be used to beat anything, and becaue it is so fast you can SDI out of any attack and counter it with a uair, and then follow up with another one. It's broken, but I wish more about ZSS was as good sometimes.

 

[noradseven]

Yeah I think ZSS counters DDD hard. Also for those of you who think brawl is a balanced game your wrong and its not just MK its just in general however the balance is mighty impressive considering they were not trying to balance it, and the cast size.


Nixonator your really don't know your **** saying olimar what aireals, yeah olimar is not easy at all I think he is one of our worst matches.
Also ZSS does not wreck Snake, IDK it seems overall the same thoughts on matches I was as of beginning of this year.

Jiggs main person your awesome keep posting about ZSS ZZS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol, at certain percents, the fthrow chaingrab on Dedede combos to a dsmash->down-b kick spike. Get wrecked.

 

[CRASHiC]

I really don't get the idea of where you think that in Smash 60-40 is a counter. That's not true at all. I've seen many times when people explained to new members that at 60-40 the better play still wins. Some boards are too conservative (The Metaknight board especially), but for the most part, the matchups work exactly as you are describing them, and until I see some massive changes in the outcome of D3 versus ZSS results, I am not going to believe that ZSS is a counter for D3 in any regards.

 

[Zero]

Jupz, name the best ZSS you've played.

None. And no, not me >.>

@Xonar: That's true, but don't discredit us so easily >.<

 

[noradseven]

I really don't get the idea of where you think that in Smash 60-40 is a counter. That's not true at all. I've seen many times when people explained to new members that at 60-40 the better play still wins. Some boards are too conservative (The Metaknight board especially), but for the most part, the matchups work exactly as you are describing them, and until I see some massive changes in the outcome of D3 versus ZSS results, I am not going to believe that ZSS is a counter for D3 in any regards.

I don't know about that when I play a 7-3 in other fighters it feels like a counter but when I play a "7-3" in brawl it feels either hopeless or the god**** easiest thing ever.

 

[CRASHiC]

That's because in other fighters, well, they are made better. Your moves aren't just things that look cool, they have a purpose, they are a tool to overcome your characters weakness. Smash has items for this, but because items spawn randomly, and no one wants to play with items, the closest thing we get to a tool in our matchups our counterpikcing stages. Then there is the natural tools that fighters have in place that smash also doesn't have, aside from Wavedashing and L canceling in Melee, but even then, those didn't do a world of good either, and some argue that L canceling hurts more than helps in that it overpowers fast fallers. I mean, imagine fighting a Baiken without being able to use Gold burst or fighting a Millia without the ability to Burst. The reason it feels easier is because in that game (whichever unless its Marvel Versus Capcom) its quite simply made better.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

None. And no, not me >.>

@Xonar: That's true, but don't discredit us so easily >.<

It's true. Europe sucks too, Japan sucks too. Deal with it. America is better.

 

[Jupz]

Yeah well I did read SFP's indication in the first post, but I couldn't tell because some people were listing ratios his way and other people were listing it the traditional way with .5's. Just got confused by all the ratios

And yeah xonars right. Simply because the community is smaller its harder to improve. Our top players are outclassed by the US top players, but I still think our top players would do *reasonably* well at a large US tournament.

 

[noradseven]

It's true. Europe sucks too, Japan sucks too. Deal with it. America is better.

I serves japan right for being able to beat us for free at every other fighter, except MvC2 lol, and 3rd strike recently O_o.

I just wish we could do better in GG and MB.

 

[CRASHiC]

I just wish we could do better in GG and MB.

LAMO. Like that will ever happen. Maybe in like, 5 years. We are getting more technical, but ****, they are just too good at that game.

 

[ph00tbag]

That's because in other fighters, well, they are made better. Your moves aren't just things that look cool, they have a purpose, they are a tool to overcome your characters weakness. Smash has items for this, but because items spawn randomly, and no one wants to play with items, the closest thing we get to a tool in our matchups our counterpikcing stages. Then there is the natural tools that fighters have in place that smash also doesn't have, aside from Wavedashing and L canceling in Melee, but even then, those didn't do a world of good either, and some argue that L canceling hurts more than helps in that it overpowers fast fallers. I mean, imagine fighting a Baiken without being able to use Gold burst or fighting a Millia without the ability to Burst. The reason it feels easier is because in that game (whichever unless its Marvel Versus Capcom) its quite simply made better.

Whether a game is made better really isn't part of the question. Game engine shouldn't be allowed to put a curve on match-up ratios. Just because Smash is badly designed doesn't mean 45/55 is suddenly a meaningful number when it's considered nonsense most other fighting game communities.

My biggest problem is that it presumes that we can know that precisely, really. I think even SFP's rubric might be a bit too precise.

 

[noradseven]

LAMO. Like that will ever happen. Maybe in like, 5 years. We are getting more technical, but ****, they are just too good at that game.

IDK NC is p. **** good at der melty the main problem is we have too small a scene we have like 1 arcade worth, but yeah on GG our top players would get past maybe the first round SBO..., the weird part is the high level game play is still evolving in both US and Japan O_o.

 

[CRASHiC]

Whether a game is made better really isn't part of the question. Game engine shouldn't be allowed to put a curve on match-up ratios. Just because Smash is badly designed doesn't mean 45/55 is suddenly a meaningful number when it's considered nonsense most other fighting game communities.

My biggest problem is that it presumes that we can know that precisely, really. I think even SFP's rubric might be a bit too precise.

That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was saying that bad matchups feel worse because of the amount of work that goes into a bad Smash match. You have to work in, basically unnatural ways to work around a bad matchup, while in other games there are rational tools that you have. You have anti-airs and you have moves with invincibility. In smash, any tool is only coincidental for the most part, the only one I know of being made in game for fact being DDDs chain grab based on everything around it.

 

[noradseven]

That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was saying that bad matchups feel worse because of the amount of work that goes into a bad Smash match. You have to work in, basically unnatural ways to work around a bad matchup, while in other games there are rational tools that you have. You have anti-airs and you have moves with invincibility. In smash, any tool is only coincidental for the most part, the only one I know of being made in game for fact being DDDs chain grab based on everything around it.

In some ways we do have that system or at least I think of it...

We have juggle moves (normally u-air, plus a few others)
We have air pokes(back air for most the cast lol)
We have ground pokes (jab/d-tilt/f-tilt for most the cast)
We have OSS (u-tilt/d-smash/grab for most the cast)
We have ground risk manuvers(dash attack/smash attacks/grab)
We have juggle escape/recoveries/SRKs (upB/side B for most the cast, down B for us lol)
We have anti air approach(greatly varies though u-tilt/f-tilt(up)/u-smash/f-smash/u-air/f-air/upB/roll for ZSS its probably f-roll/dashback over B/u-air/f-air/instant back air/u-smash/jab/f-tilt(up).

So yeah outside of anti air approach while grounded most of the typical situations are generally true across the board, and yeah smash isn't SFIV we don't have like 7-8 shotos lol.

 

[Coney]

hey guys! sorry i'm in here so late! i'm here to clear up a common misconception!

ZSS/DDD is 50/50!

okay, have a good day!

 

[KillerJawz]

It's true. Europe sucks too, Japan sucks too. Deal with it. America is better.

Evidence?......No?......

OBJECTION

When american players can play and defeat european and japanese people consistantly, then you can say statements like this.











jk. We're trash

 

[noradseven]

Evidence?......No?......

OBJECTION

When american players can play and defeat european and japanese people consistantly, then you can say statements like this.



jk. We're trash

japan is probably better in brawl then it is in melee, because the game is defensive as ****, but japan still tries to play it like touhou light so IDK.