ZSS Match-up Odds (Descriptions added)

[Mmac]

How do you think the Infinites will affect Wario's and Squirtle's Matchups? ZSS Can Infinite them both with Release Grabs. Though Wario requires timing, Squirtle is extremely simple to do.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Id say Squirtle becomes 8:2 and Wario become 75:25

 

[DeliciousCake]

How do you think the Infinites will affect Wario's and Squirtle's Matchups? ZSS Can Infinite them both with Release Grabs. Though Wario requires timing, Squirtle is extremely simple to do.

Release infinites are generally banned in tournament play, however:

Ok as someone (Vanz) pointed out to me, if you d-smash Wario with the very top of the hitbox after a grab release it will hit. Then you can regrab, and this won't count as a standing infinite

The only question is can you get them into the grab and time the d-smash properly.

 

[Mmac]

Release infinites are generally banned in tournament play

What? When did this happened? However that Dsmash thing sounds even better

Edit: I tested that, it doesn't work. By the time that Wario can Jump, he is just barley above the Hitbox and it will only whiff it. And even if it does hit, it only goes up to 85 before the knockback sends him too high to regrab.

 

[ph00tbag]

Knockback shouldn't have anything to do with grabbing someone out of dsmash, especially at 85%, when the stun is long enough you should be able to grab him. That is, assuming you stun him low enough to grab him.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Release Infinites AREN't generally banned at tournaments, I dont know where you got that from

 

[Mmac]

Knockback shouldn't have anything to do with grabbing someone out of dsmash, especially at 85%, when the stun is long enough you should be able to grab him. That is, assuming you stun him low enough to grab him.

Again, I tried that, but when I tested to stun him without Wario DJ'ing, then it stuns him too high for me to regrab, so I gotta wait until the affect is finished in order for him to come down to Regrab him.

or, I'm not doing it right.

 

[Snakeee]

D-smashing Wario definitely works, but it is very hard. You have to time it almost frame perfectly so it will take some practice to have it down well. Like I said, it has to his with the very top of the hitbox, leaving Wario stunned in the air...this is where the usefulness of being able to grab people out of the air comes in.
I'm not sure exactly where to put Wario after this, but I'll put it in ZSS favor as long as it's legal. it's still possible for him to escape when there are platfoms so it's not quite as broken as D-smash chaining Fox.

 

[FadedImage]

To contribute about the Wario release stuff. It's freaking hard, but doable. Like Snakeee said, you need a frame perfect downsmash and hope the Wario isn't good at jamming the jump button. Also, you can dsmash, grab, pummel, air-release, grab, pummel, air-release, dsmash, etc etc. For some reason the first grab/pummel doesn't reset the dsmash cooldown, but the second one will. Is anyone else getting those results?

EDIT: speaking of Snake, you should probably add a little tidbit about grabbing him out of his cypher. It's super easy with the tether. Basically, all you need to do is d-smash him on the way back, either grab-release him (with pummels) or let him fall out of the d-smash. Then, when he uses his cypher to recover, you should be able to snag him out of it. Don't pummel at all, and he'll have to c4 himself to recover.

 

[Snakeee]

To contribute about the Wario release stuff. It's freaking hard, but doable. Like Snakeee said, you need a frame perfect downsmash and hope the Wario isn't good at jamming the jump button. Also, you can dsmash, grab, pummel, air-release, grab, pummel, air-release, dsmash, etc etc. For some reason the first grab/pummel doesn't reset the dsmash cooldown, but the second one will. Is anyone else getting those results?

EDIT: speaking of Snake, you should probably add a little tidbit about grabbing him out of his cypher. It's super easy with the tether. Basically, all you need to do is d-smash him on the way back, either grab-release him (with pummels) or let him fall out of the d-smash. Then, when he uses his cypher to recover, you should be able to snag him out of it. Don't pummel at all, and he'll have to c4 himself to recover.

Thanks for the input. You're right about it not resetting the d-smash the first time. That could ruin the whole thing . If you have to do two grabs in a row it's probably going to be considered a standing infinite.

And about Snake, if I d-smash him off the stage, he's already getting down B spiked
Most good Snake players recover really high against me though as long as it's possible so I'm often forced to go for an Up-B or Up-air if I'm at low percent myself...

 

[3GOD]

I noticed that Pokemon Trainer is absent from the list...I don't really have much experience in this match-up, but I expect it's in ZSS's favor 6/4 or so.

 

[Snakeee]

They're there I just separated them into Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur. Really good PTs actually do pretty well against me, but I only gave the advantage to Squirtle.

 

[3GOD]

They're there I just separated them into Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur. Really good PTs actually do pretty well against me, but I only gave the advantage to Squirtle.

Ah, I see...wonder how I missed that before.

 

[Mmac]

I only heard that Infinites are banned in Texas, and nowhere else. So could ZSS Infinite on Squirtle still apply?

Besides, I never heard of Dedede's Infinite, or the people who can Infinite Wario/Ness/Lucas getting banned either.

 

[Tristan_win]

...So, I've been having some trouble with Meta knight recently with my main Sheik/Zelda as she just doesn't seem to be able to handle him at all and since zelda doesn't seem to do that hot against him either alone I was thinking about picking Zamus back up.

>.>' I really didn't think I would be returning but ...yeah, can anyone give more information about the Zamus vs Meta knight match up?

Like counter picks and such, also summing up any new discoveries in the past ...2 months, month and a half? Would be really appreciated

Thank you.

 

[Snakeee]

Tristan check the first page I think I got pretty detailed on the Metaknight match up. One thing I think I forgot to mention which is a general thing for any character against meta is that you should jump out of shield after anticipating his attacks. For instance, you start shielding when he glides at you, he glide attacks then down smashes, then you jump out of shield and go for a b-air.
I haven't really tested this out yet, but I think you may be able to also jab him out of shield in between his ridiculously fast combos like that one since her jab is one frame.

 

[Adapt]

Hey Snakeee, can you elaborate on the jiggs matchup?
Personally I have never had too much trouble against jiggs, that's not why I'm asking. Part of the reason for that is I've never come across a Jiggs main.

I am interested because the Jiggs boards have the match listed as in our favor.

 

[Snakeee]

Um...actually I think it is ZSS favor now lol. Thanks for pointing that out. She completely outranges her, has better kill power, can camp her. Yeah I don't know what I was thinking other than she is good at evading ZSS' attacks.

EDIT: other new changes. Ike = 7/3 ZSS favor, Ivysaur = Even, Kirby = Even

 

[BoTastic!]

hmm u guys already agree that Mario and zamus are =. But i still think its necessary for a zss main to come to the mario boards and help us discuss the match up and strategy against Mario/zamus in our weekly match up thread.

 

[Mmac]

You seem to be really uninterested in the Squirtle Infinite, and I don't see why not....

If it's about legality, Overswarm says its completely legal in the SBR Recommended Ruleset

It is only banned if you continually grab and do no damage with the intent of running the timer.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5118290&postcount=144

 

[fkacyan]

You seem to be really uninterested in the Squirtle Infinite, and I don't see why not....

If it's about legality, Overswarm says its completely legal in the SBR Recommended Ruleset



http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5118290&postcount=144

Our character isn't so bad that we need to infinite to win.

On a serious note, ZSS's grab is too risky. If you land it, go for it, but if you miss, instant punishment.

 

[Snakeee]

Well that's good to know but I don't take the back room as like the Jedi Council or something lol. It's probably legal in more places then it is banned though I think. Also like Cyanide said, a grab is very risky and difficult to land especially on Squirtle. He counters ZSS pretty bad besides this actually, so the match up would be more in his favor if it weren't for the infinite.

 

[Mmac]

Our character isn't so bad that we need to infinite to win.

Ok, what the hell was that? I wasn't trying to insult you in anyway. I'm just trying to help, I never said you're character was useless garbage

Well that's good to know but I don't take the back room as like the Jedi Council or something lol. It's probably legal in more places then it is banned though I think. Also like Cyanide said, a grab is very risky and difficult to land especially on Squirtle. He counters ZSS pretty bad besides this actually, so the match up would be more in his favor if it weren't for the infinite.

I guess. I figure the best way is to grab him out of Withdraw.

 

[Snakeee]

Captain Falcon changed to 6/4 ZSS favor
Dedede changed to Even.

 

[fkacyan]

Ok, what the hell was that? I wasn't trying to insult you in anyway. I'm just trying to help, I never said you're character was useless garbage

Serious comment is serious. That's why I always denote my comments with the word serious. Seriously.

Really, it did say "On a serious note" there. It was intended as a joke. I play and get whooped by PRiDE, I don't need education on how Yoshi isn't complete garbage

 

[Snakeee]

Oh thanks for reminding me guys. Yoshi changed to 6/4 Yoshi...now this is where people are going to start doubting me lol. Well then play against Pride and you guys will see.

 

[fkacyan]

Oh thanks for reminding me guys. Yoshi changed to 6/4 Yoshi...now this is where people are going to start doubting me lol. Well then play against Pride and you guys will see.

He's JV-3stocked me before...

G'**** that guy's Yoshi is good.

 

[Snakeee]

I win with Zelda, I never thought I'd have to counterpick Yoshi >_>

 

[Mmac]

Serious comment is serious. That's why I always denote my comments with the word serious. Seriously.

>_>

I don't like jokes. I r serious person.

I still think Squirtle should be at least Neutral though. I mean it's pretty much a free kill if the rules allow it and if you don't do it too close to the edge.

And I'm pretty surprised with Yoshi, though I haven't really played many ZSS mains myself. Really hate those Armour parts at the start though

 

[fkacyan]

>_>

I don't like jokes. I r serious person.

I still think Squirtle should be at least Neutral though. I mean it's pretty much a free kill if the rules allow it and if you don't do it too close to the edge.

And I'm pretty surprised with Yoshi, though I haven't really played many ZSS mains myself. Really hate those Armour parts at the start though

You can ask Pride how I gimped him at 14% on the first stock with them once =D

 

[Snakeee]

Omg Mmac's post count is PURE EVIL o_O

 

[Mmac]

Omg Mmac's post count is PURE EVIL o_O

O_o!

I almost forgot I was near there. Thank god I posted quickly.

Unless 669 is also evil >_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hmmm.

Snakee aren't you being a tad optimistic with these ratios?

Even with MK for example....errrr...no, sorry but that is unacceptable.

And vs Marth... >_>

Vs MK is 65/35 his favor maybe worse and vs Marth is 60/40.

Debate me or die.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

 

[Snakeee]

Hmmm.

Snakee aren't you being a tad optimistic with these ratios?

Even with MK for example....errrr...no, sorry but that is unacceptable.

And vs Marth... >_>

Vs MK is 65/35 his favor maybe worse and vs Marth is 60/40.

Debate me or die.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Well you can look at the first page for the logical explanations, but I can beat most Metaknights too easily now honestly. I think it may even be ZSS favor by a bit, but technically I should leave it at even because it's more from my match up knowledge there. She's one of the few characters though that can punish Metaknight, and can recover well against him.
I've even beaten M2K in a friendly....yeah I know it's not the same, but he wasn't sandbagging.

Marth is pretty even. It's actually a weird match up if you ask me. I can **** marth but he can **** me. I've had matches where I've 3 stocked high level Marth players, yet there were a couple times where I've gotten destroyed. ZSS' spacing game is very effective against him, and so is her edgeguarding. It's also pretty hard for marth to safely land against her. On the other hand, once you do get through her spacing it's hard for her to get away from Marth's assaults.

And, in no way am I being too optimistic when I'm giving Yoshi, Peach, and others the advantage >_>. I'm being as true to what I believe on the match ups as possible. ZSS has very odd match up rates believe me on that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What high level Marth mains have you 3 stocked or beaten in tourney?

Also less talk of your own experiences and more evidence/data plz.

Personal experience can cloud your judgement.

ZSS's spacing vs Marth consists of side b and more side b. Hardly what I would call effective especially since it can be seen and reacted to when she winds up. Hell the move doesn't even actually hit at the sweetspot until a few frames after it fully extends.

Anyway, you talk more of your own personal strategy and very little of who has better pokes, edgeguarding, defensive options, offensive options, etc.

You seem to analyze gameplay and not the characters, which isn't what you should be doing.

 

[Snakeee]

Strategies and the technicalities go hand and hand though IMO. I only made it that strategy based on my Metaknight section, because too many ZSS players seem to have trouble with him and it's one of my best match ups.

Ok, well ZSS can mix things up between Forward B, Short hopped charged paralyzer shot and uncharged, and D-smash in order to throw off the Marth. Believe it or not, Marth's F-smash only barely outranges the D-smash if at all. I'll need to check it out more to make sure if it even does outrange it. But it still makes it more situational. I wouldn't go for it unless you're already shielding.
Also, like you said yourself she is very safe on block, and you don't gain much space when you shield her attacks. Usually you'll end up forcing her to the edge, which is good. However, ZSS' ledge games are very good and it won't be the worst position in the world.

ZSS' recovery is very versatile, and the only time Marth will be able to gimp her is if the ZSS player makes a mistake; unless you happened to get her off the stage after both the 2nd jump and down-b were wasted. A forward B while recovering will often either hit Marth, or force him to miss the edgeguard.
ZSS has tons of recovering options from the ledge as well. If you're going to go for the F-smash edgeguard from the stage, she can both ledgehop backwards and forward B or neutral B, and either regrab the ledge or go for the stage.

On the other hand, Marth has a harder time recovering than ZSS does. With proper spacing, she can forward B Marth way off the stage (yeah forward B again don't judge it works). While Marth's on the ledge she can d-smash him at a safe distance and spike just like with most other characters. Of course this doesn't work everytime and it has to be timed perfectly, but when it does it's usually a loss of a whole stock.

Well that's all for now, let me know what else you disagree with on the match up

 

[Emblem Lord]

All she has that's really safe is retreating Bair and a fully spaced forward B that isn't powershielded. Anything else Marth can punish.

Paralyzer shots are easily swatted.

ZSS doesn't fight Marth. She runs away and tries to bait him so she can get in combos through paralysis.

Also...F-smash edgeguard?

Really man?

Really?

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAALLY?

*sigh

Moving on. All in all ZSS can't go toe to toe with Marth or trade hits really. He does more damage overall, has better tools, he is heavier, with better kill moves and they can both gimp each other. I think it's silly to ZSS can only be gimped by Marth if she messes up. That's like saying Marth can only be gimped if he messes up. Generally speaking if you force your opponent into a really bad situation off the stage, you can gimp them. Some characters are virtually ungimpable while others are fairly gimpable. Marth can gimp ZSS under the right circumstances and she can do the same to him. I will say that it is much easier for Marth to harass ZSS off the stage then it is for her to harass him since he has faster aerials and doesn't rely on a move that telegraphs itself.

Going by pure stats Marth is just better and generally has control. ZSS has to camp and runaway and force Marth to make mistakes to capitalize on. She can't go hit for hit because she will lose. That said she has her range and her projectile to help her out. And she has other tricks as well. Still it's the raw stats that really gives Marth the heads up.

 

[Snakeee]

Lmao what are you talking about about the F-smash edgeguard??? You've definitely stood near the ledge, and tried to hit me like that YOURSELF.

I'll add that ZSS has much better air control in the match up. Well I already mentioned that it's hard for Marth to land, but ZSS really ***** him in that department. She has way to many options with up-air, up-b, and b-air. Also, platforms only make things worse for Marth.

While ZSS is in the air, yes Marth has nice range and can punish her landing if close enough. But her down B gets her out of your spacing most of the time, and you have to predict which way it's going to be done.

 

[ph00tbag]

OF course, Snakeee, you also have to deal with the fact that Marth has an amazing shield pressure game that leaves him out of range of a lot of possible counterattacks. Marth can KO significantly earlier, and he can close the gap a lot faster than ZSS can defend it. Try using Plasma Whip when Marth is cutting through the muzzle flash with a fair, and moving right on to hit you.

Zamus can certainly outspace Marth with Plasma Whip, and she can combo him as well as she can anyone. She has a beastly edgeguard and a killer recovery too. But Marth has superior attack speed, better priority in many cases, and an equally deadly combo game. Add to that his excellent shield pressure and KO potential, and you've got a character who can easily give Zamus a hard time.

Marth also has plenty of moves that put his opponent above him, which is bad for Zamus, especially against a superb juggler like Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Edge guard and ledge guard = two different things.

Edge guard means trying to keep your opponent from getting back onto the stage.

Ledge guard refers to keep your opponent on the ledge or try to punish them for staying on the ledge.

You make it sound like I tried to edgeguard with it, as in keep you from getting back on the stage. Which I would not do.

Now ledge guarding with it, is something I would do when I am well spaced from the ledge and my opponent is hanging off of it.