ZSS Match-up Odds (Descriptions added)

[ph00tbag]

I noted something really funny just now. Zamus' rapid jab is really good at putting a stop to Falco Phantasm (at least grounded ones). I did several tests, and no Phantasm damaged Zamus. A few passed through at no ill to Zamus, and some were stopped dead by the jab.

(Other rapid approach moves that this does well at interrupting are Luigi Cyclone, Rollout, Spindash, Snakedashing, Raptor Boost and Squall Hammer. All in all, the use is limited, but it's something to keep in mind, and may affect several matchups.)

 

[Snakeee]

Ah yeah that's a good idea Ph00tbag.

While he's off the stage and I expect the phantasm, I now down B off the stage. If you do this right you will always hit him. If you do it at just the right height you will hit him whether he aims for the stage or for the ledge.

I'll try to give my Samus input and Ness a little later.

 

[Snakeee]

Ah yeah that's a good idea Ph00tbag.

While he's off the stage and I expect the phantasm, I now down B off the stage. If you do this right you will always hit him. If you do it at just the right height you will hit him whether he aims for the stage or for the ledge.

I'll try to give my Samus input and Ness a little later.

 

[Mmac]

Wait... I just thought of something with Squirtle.

Can't you just Stun him with a Dsmash/NeuB, then Grab him?

 

[ph00tbag]

Wait... I just thought of something with Squirtle.

Can't you just Stun him with a Dsmash/NeuB, then Grab him?

You've seen how good Squirtles move around, right? Landing a dsmash, or even a paralyzer on Squirtle is easier said than done.

 

[fkacyan]

Your ridiculous points make me wonder if you've ever played against a good samus. I could take the time to break down why each of those points are invalid, but unless you've played against a good samus before, then there's not a chance that you'd understand.

I don't blame you though, good samus players are hard to come across, they don't swarm the tournament scent like mk and snake.

Please, then, take the time or we'll leave the matchup as is.

I haven't stated anything that's not really true there. Samus is floaty. Samus has a lack of good, consistent kill moves. All of Samus's ranged attacks are telegraphed, minus her zair.

Show me I'm wrong, with proof. No Samus I've ever played has proven otherwise to me.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Hey, what do you guys think of Zero Suit Samus's tier placement? mid tier. I am content with that position, but, I think it is likely to rise as more ZS Samus players master this character.

 

[Snakeee]

I will make it rise for sure.
She's at least upper mid - low high tier, which I know through my knowledge of the character and how she matches up against the other characters.

 

[i.E.]

I will make it rise for sure.
She's at least upper mid - low high tier, which I know through my knowledge of the character and how she matches up against the other characters.

Omg, seriously, go try and argue that with the people over in the tier discussion thread : /. I totally agree with you though. I've been maining her for a week and I haven't seen that many weaknesses; Sometimes has problems KOing, doesn't deal with pressure well...her recovery is NOT bad AT ALL lol. On the contrary, I'd argue that it's a very good recovery if you know how to use it (and deadly).

Doesn't her ability to combo better than (almost) anyone and no serious weakness put her somewhere around upper mid-low high?

You'd think so : /

 

[Boolossus]

Show me I'm wrong, with proof. No Samus I've ever played has proven otherwise to me.

Fly out to so cal, I'll play a set with you.
Or you could walk if you're feeling eco-friendly.

 

[Levitas]

Fly out to so cal, I'll play a set with you.
Or you could walk if you're feeling eco-friendly.

This is not an argument. An argument uses evidence and facts to prove points.

 

[Boolossus]

This is not an argument. An argument uses evidence and facts to prove points.

Putting up an arguement would be pointless unless you have some idea of what I'm talking about. Just about everyone in here thinks that ZSS has a huge advantage over samus, and no matter how many good points I make, my arguement would be shot down because I'm outnumbered. But w/e I'll try.

Grapple Beam outranges all of ZSS's attacks, most importantly side B. Not only that, but it's fast so it's difficult to punish. I believe something was said about Samus being easy to edgeguard because she's floaty. That is totally untrue. Try to edgeguard a good Samus and you'll be hit with bombs, missiles, grapple beam, ect. Not to mention that you can just airdodge the obvious zss bair. Screw attack also has amazing priority. Samus's combo's and KO moves might seem like they're easy to predict, but with all of the missile and grapple spam they can catch you offguard. ZSS's KO moves are pretty easy to see coming too btw.

 

[Snakeee]

But ZSS has tons of options to get around your recovery methods. Lets see, off the stage I can:
- B-air a missile and then forward B Samus
-B-air a missle - B-air Samus
- Air dodge a missile - B-air Samus
- Air dodge missile - Forward B- Samus
-Air dodge Z-Air - Forward B Samus
- Air dodge Z-Air - B-air Samus
- If you're close enough I can forward B you and just take the hit of a missile.
...not to mention that if you must recover with bombs, you are extremely vulnerable.

Btw I think ZSS can cancel out Samus' fully charged shot with a paralyzer shot, but don't quote me on this yet. I haven't played the match up in a while.

 

[Boolossus]

But ZSS has tons of options to get around your recovery methods. Lets see, off the stage I can:
- B-air a missile and then forward B Samus
-B-air a missle - B-air Samus
- Air dodge a missile - B-air Samus
- Air dodge missile - Forward B- Samus
-Air dodge Z-Air - Forward B Samus
- Air dodge Z-Air - B-air Samus
- If you're close enough I can forward B you and just take the hit of a missile.
...not to mention that if you must recover with bombs, you are extremely vulnerable.

Btw I think ZSS can cancel out Samus' fully charged shot with a paralyzer shot, but don't quote me on this yet. I haven't played the match up in a while.

If you attack or dodge my missile, I won't just be sitting there waiting for you to hit me. I'll already be taking evasive actions. This is the reason that I wanted you to have played against a decent Samus before I tried to reason with you.

This is exactly why I didn't even want to bother arguing, it's like trying to persuade a wall. I'm telling you guys, in discussion, you can do anything to a character. But in actual play, I'm not just going to sit there and let you hit me. That's why this thread is pointless unless you're willing to listen to both sides of the arguement. Every character board is like this. They talk and talk about how much their character can do, but when someone comes in and says that their character has a decent matchup against that board's character, everyone on the board swarms in with a million reasons as to why their character is better, without realizing that the person playing as the other character is a human, and won't make it easy to pull off your character's tricks.

Fine, leave the Samus matchup as 7/3. I guess this is what I get for trying to help this thread be more accurate. But when a ZSS player comes in here looking for advice, and then goes to a tournament and gets ***** by a decent Samus because they expected that Samus would be easy, I won't be here to say, "I told you so."

 

[FBM]

Hey, what do you guys think of Zero Suit Samus's tier placement? mid tier. I am content with that position, but, I think it is likely to rise as more ZS Samus players master this character.

She definately doesn't feel as well-rounded as some of the very high tier characters, but I think that between her strengths and some smart play, her weaknesses can be covered very well. A few tough matchups aside, I think she's very powerful and I'd love to see her rise in the tiers (even though it might mean other people get more experience against her ).

 

[Snakeee]

Boolossus, you're complaining that we're only saying what our character can do, but I've played a few people that were decent with Samus and you're being a hypocrite. The only thing I did so far was make one argument against something you said. You say ZSS' attacks are easy to avoid which they are not because when done in succession you're likely to get hit by something. You think I've never played a good Samus, but my guess is that you've never played a good ZSS yourself.

 

[Bouse]

The easiest way to beat a Samus player is to attack their weakpoint for massive damage.

 

[ph00tbag]

The easiest way to beat a Samus player is to attack their weakpoint for massive damage.

That's actually how you beat TL with MK's moveset.

/me wonders if anyone gets the reference.

 

[Boolossus]

Boolossus, you're complaining that we're only saying what our character can do, but I've played a few people that were decent with Samus and you're being a hypocrite. The only thing I did so far was make one argument against something you said. You say ZSS' attacks are easy to avoid which they are not because when done in succession you're likely to get hit by something. You think I've never played a good Samus, but my guess is that you've never played a good ZSS yourself.

Faded Image is a very good ZSS. I didn't say that her moves were easy to avoid, I said that if Samus's ko moves are easy to see coming, then ZSS's are easy to see coming as well. Don't try to twist my words around against me. Instead of being reasonable and putting up a logical counter-arguement you've decided to resort to name-calling. This is exactly why I didn't want to bother even trying to explain why I think that Samus has an advantage in the first place, because there's no getting through to people on smashboards.

Okay, try sharing my frustration. This is the Marth character match-up thread, headed by Emblem Lord. According to their thread, Marth has an advantage over ZSS. But according to this thread, ZSS breaks even with Marth. Now I dare you to try going into that thread and posting some reasons as to why ZSS and Marth are even. What will happen is that Emblem Lord and a thousand other Marth players will shoot you down in a second, while boasting how badly Marth can pwn ZSS with his uberness. Heck, I think that ZSS and Marth are even, so I'll go in there with you and try to reason, but I'm telling you, it will not work.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160991

I didn't come in here asking for a war, I just wanted to help the ZSS community grow (I second ZSS myself).

 

[7thFonon]

I see what you mean by the Marth example, but I can't say that Samus is near ZSS in terms of match-ups. When I fight Samus up close, I feel no pressure, at all. Zero's tilts just come out too fast for Samus to really do anything in close combat. This might be because of how I play, or maybe not. You can use move after move and Samus won't have many options for a counter-attack except for powershield or escape (which isn't an attack....) . Remember, shield grabbing will be difficult as Samus's is slow, so that's out of the question. It's not even the player that I'm talking about, its just the character..... Samus's moves just won't come out before Zero's attacks if they are used at the same time. Being that Samus's slow attacks don't really out-range Zero's moves (like down tilt), the faster attacker will have the advantage. But I will say that Samus does have a better distance game, but Zero is fast, and she's not a very big target. Z Air might keep her off for a bit, but it won't take long to get into close combat.


I'm not trying to knock what you're saying though. I try to be as open minded as possible. Maybe I just don't see what you mean because I use Zero Suit and I want her to be the best.... But just from my past experience, I don't feel that Samus is a problem for me. I'm not hating on Samus though, I mean really, we're the same person =) .

 

[DeliciousCake]

Why are you bringing hostility to this thread for no reason? We've had perfectly friendly discussions with Sonic mains as to that matchup and everyone got along fine and learned a few things.

 

[Snakeee]

Haha I already had a heated debate with Emblem Lord >_>.
You're right though, a lot of people are going to have bias towards their character. However, I am not doing that and I'm being completely honest on how I feel about the match ups. I think it may possibly be 6/4 ZSS against Samus, but I need to play the match up more to know for sure. Hopefully there will be a really good Samus player at Critical Hit 4.

 

[FBM]

In my limited Samus vs ZSS experience, I've found that I have to abandon my usual ZSS spacing game and get up in Samus' face, which is something she does NOT like. ZSS has quite a few combo/chase options against Samus because of her floatiness.

As far the predictability of ZSS's kill moves, I'll concede some of that, but when u-air, f-air, b-air, side-B, and d-smash will all be your death, it's a lot to avoid, however predictable it may be.

And Samus' slow roll is VERY bad vs ZSS because of how easy it is to catch in a d-smash. And low-% landing of a d-smash is going to make you eat at least 30% dmg and a high-% landing is going to get you killed. Easily.

 

[i.E.]

Pertaining to Boolossus's argument that ZSS doesn't have an advantage over samus (that is what you're saying right?)...I definitely disagree.

I've played Rohins quite a few times, and to my knowledge he's a f*****g beast samus; the man is good, one of the best samus players out there is something I'd argue with anyone (as would gimpyfish). But playing such a good player as Rohins, you notice Samus's HUGE flaw; she has not one reliable (again, reliable) KO move. Not one. When I asked what reliable kill move samus has, this was straight from Rohins mouth:

"she has no kill moves lol, Dtilt is her best one and has the best hitbox."

His opinion on the matchup in general though:

"It's not a bad matchup...although zss can get in her grill a bit. Samus can outspace her pretty well and zss recovery is pretty bad so gimps circumvent the poor killing moves"

To his idea that her recovery is "pretty bad", I'd argue that ZSS's recovery is above average and dangerous, because down b + DJ gives you more than enough vertical and horizontal distance to get back to stage, not to mention you could possibly spike someone edge guarding, and oh yea....she has a tether after getting that distance as well.

Rohins overall opinion of the matchup of ZSS vs Samus:

"Basically even, certainly fightable for samus"

I don't think ZSS can be so easily gimped by samus at all though, and her lack of kill moves hurts samus in this matchup (and every matchup really). ZSS also lacks reliable kill moves in this particular matchup, but her Dsmash can lead into those kill moves. Hence, I think ZSS has a slight advantage.

 

[Snakeee]

Rohins doesn't know what he's talking about at all on the match up. I'm not saying he's a bad player, but the fact that he thinks that ZSS' recovery is bad and she's gimpable show's his lack of knowledge for ZSS.
And ZSS has slightly above average kill power and can get kills well because of her speed and the amount of attacks that can KO.

 

[Adapt]

No ness info?

(just a reminder)

 

[Snakeee]

Well, I'm not going to write a whole thing right now for Ness, I have played the match up a good amount of times its just hard for me to think of what to say for some reason.

I'll note that his recovery is bad against ZSS because she can almost always hit him before he can hit himself with his Up-B.
On Ness' side his priority in the air from the side helps him a lot especially with his B-air.

 

[3GOD]

Any further analysis on the Kirby match-up? I haven't really played it to be honest, but just thinking about it, it doesn't seem like it would be that easy since Kirby is a small target.

 

[Snakeee]

Well I just beat Chu Dat in tourney, so I guess I've learned the match up well enough. I think it's close to even, and yes he is very hard to hit especially in the right hands.

Something that helped me out a great deal is knowing that your Down B can get you out of any combo of his. If you start pressing down B as he's throwing you, ZSS can escape his forward throw combo at ZERO.

I basically just camp retreating paralyzer shots and forward Bs until one of them hit or I create an opening.

You can combo him well in the air, but be wary of his down B. If they happen to overdo the down B, then they can be easily punished if you just wait for it. A lot of times I'll be aggressive while under him in the air and use my own down B when I see him falling at me with his.

Oh and I still try to punish the typical "I'm going to eat your armor pieces" by mindgaming with paralyzer shots and forward B's while I'm holding a piece.

 

[ph00tbag]

Oh and I still try to punish the typical "I'm going to eat your armor pieces" by mindgaming with paralyzer shots and forward B's while I'm holding a piece.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry so much about him eating your armor pieces. The less there are, the less your opponent can steal.

If he insists on inhaling at the start of the match, throw two pieces at him, then grab one, run up and plasma whip him.

 

[3GOD]

I basically just camp retreating paralyzer shots and forward Bs until one of them hit or I create an opening.

I'm trying to figure out how to use Paralyzer more effectively. Do you typically charge the shots any when doing these retreated Paralyzer shots? How much space do you attempt to keep when "camping" the paralyzer? About the same as forward B or a little more?

 

[Snakeee]

I like to mix it up to throw my opponent off. I charge the shots more than uncharged partly because it reaches further. Also I do more shots than forward Bs while I'm further away.

 

[Snakeee]

Yoshi changed to even since I think I proved that he can NOT chaingrab her when I played Yoster.
Ganon changed to 7/3 ZSS.

EDIT: sorry I forgot I was the last one to post..

 

[ph00tbag]

I'm trying to figure out how to use Paralyzer more effectively. Do you typically charge the shots any when doing these retreated Paralyzer shots? How much space do you attempt to keep when "camping" the paralyzer? About the same as forward B or a little more?

That's about the right spacing. I'll throw in some charged shots if they're further away.

One thing that you should definitely pay mind to is that an uncharged Paralyzer comes out fast enough to disable a Nikita Missile, but charged ones don't. It seems counterintuitive, but I've never failed to disable a Nikita with an uncharged shot.

 

[Mmac]

Yoshi changed to even since I think I proved that he can NOT chaingrab her when I played Yoster.

I do not know who he is, nor I can find him anywhere on this site, so I can't really comment on the skill of him. I will say that Yoshi's Chaingrab, just like Dedede's, is factored on the player and only the player. If he doesn't react right away. If he doesn't, then he's going to break the grab.

My test show that a frame perfect reaction can grab ZSS before she can recover from the Grab Release with some room for error on the reaction. It is inescapable.

What I don't get is that you're previous judgement was on Pride, and I'm not even sure if he used Chaingrabs or not. If he did, then it probably supports my theory that the person you were playing against probably doesn't have the reaction time in order to do Chaingrabs. If he didn't, then it should support that Yoshi DOESN'T need Chaingrabs on ZSS to gain an upper hand in the first place.

 

[Snakeee]

Both of them used the chain grab, and it had worked on me until recently. I discovered that she can escape it with a Down B if timed almost perfectly (or mashing it). Maybe he wasn't perfect in the grab though, so you could have a point. Right now I'm convinced she can escape it until it's proven otherwise.

 

[Mmac]

Both of them used the chain grab, and it had worked on me until recently. I discovered that she can escape it with a Down B if timed almost perfectly (or mashing it). Maybe he wasn't perfect in the grab though, so you could have a point. Right now I'm convinced she can escape it until it's proven otherwise.

Hmmm... Never tried a DownB to escape. I always tested escapes with regular jumping, or some people's UpB's, because those are usually the fastest ways to get out of the chaingrab if he screws up.

I'll test it, but I doubt it will be any different. If Sonic can't escape with the spring, then I don't think that ZSS can escape with the DownB. Plus I don't think she has enough time to do anything anyways...

 

[ph00tbag]

Hmmm... Never tried a DownB to escape. I always tested escapes with regular jumping, or some people's UpB's, because those are usually the fastest ways to get out of the chaingrab if he screws up.

I'll test it, but I doubt it will be any different. If Sonic can't escape with the spring, then I don't think that ZSS can escape with the DownB. Plus I don't think she has enough time to do anything anyways...

Try it with Flip Jump. Flip Jump has invincibility on the first frame and gets you out of most hitboxes evern faster than a DJ. Even if you technically can do it if you have frame perfect precision. This means that you need frame perfect precision. And unless you're Phanna, I doubt that's the case.

Case in point: SWDing made Samus the fastest character on the ground in Melee. No one would deny that this would have made her a much better character. But the input needed was frame perfect. Most Samuses simply didn't use it because the work required to learn it was far too great, even for the superior maneuverability if afforded.

This is the same notion. If this chain grab is frame perfect in every sense, then the work required to get it right is far too much for it to really be useful to all but the most technical, dedicated Yoshi mains. And just like Phanna never really received much national recognition beyond his tech skill, this Yoshi main would likely have the same standing. He could chain grab you to hell and back, but could he win? The Yoshi that actually could win would be more concerned with the techniques that are more reliable and all around better.

This is the nature of a match-up. It needs to be data based, yes, but if you include every data point, it won't reflect the actual results, because you have to take into account the actual metagame for the two characters as well. I'm not a Yoshi main, but my experience with glitchy, frame perfect techniques tells me that this CG on ZSS will not be prevalent at all in the Yoshi metagame.

 

[Mmac]

Well, I tested it, and it does indeed make it harder to Chaingrab, but it's still possible to do. I don't think it has anything to do with Invincibility Frames (Yoshi can still grab out of those), but rather the Flip jump kinda teleports a few inches upwards on use. However, I found a flaw that Yoshi can recover in time, and grab you out of the flip jump on the climax! It could be used to reduce the distance you are being Chaingrabbed, but it could as easily prolong it, or even be heavily punished from it. Unless there's some sort of flip jump cancel, you are going to get regrabbed/smashed

Also Phootbag, Yoshi can buffer running grabs on release. I'm using frame perfect as in the soonest time Yoshi reacts as soon as his release animation. You can actually do the input before the animation is over and basically get the same results

 

[ph00tbag]

Well, I tested it, and it does indeed make it harder to Chaingrab, but it's still possible to do. I don't think it has anything to do with Invincibility Frames (Yoshi can still grab out of those), but rather the Flip jump kinda teleports a few inches upwards on use. However, I found a flaw that Yoshi can recover in time, and grab you out of the flip jump on the climax! It could be used to reduce the distance you are being Chaingrabbed, but it could as easily prolong it, or even be heavily punished from it. Unless there's some sort of flip jump cancel, you are going to get regrabbed/smashed

Also Phootbag, Yoshi can buffer running grabs on release. I'm using frame perfect as in the soonest time Yoshi reacts as soon as his release animation. You can actually do the input before the animation is over and basically get the same results

I realize all of this. But I want you to tell me seriously how many Yoshi mains beside yourself actually care that if they put in several hours developing the timing for it they can have a chaingrab against some character which is of limited use. You're completely ignoring the point of my argument, which is that the impact of this on the metagame is not great enough for it to really matter.