ZSS Match-up Odds (Descriptions added)

[Snakeee]

Its interesting to compare this to the matchup chart in tactical discussion

There's agreement for a number of things, but not all... for example

Rob is listed as our disadvantage same with Snake.

Peach is listed to our advantage, same with Jiggs

I happen to agree with Snake and Peach of actually. Peach can't autofloat towards us, and we can normally keep her at a range. Also her kill moves are kinda limited, most of them kill above her (somewhere we avoid as much as possible)

Snake just kills too **** early and his range is better than average. He can be quite hard to avoid even though we are more agile

I didn't worry about the contested/neutral matches

Sorry I took so long to respond to this, but first off that chart is very inaccurate when it comes to ZSS. She is still a character that most people know little about, and when this chart was made they knew even less about.

Peach is annoying as hell. How can she not float toward ZSS? She actually destroys her with that. Her D air breaks most of your attacks, and her follow up combos usually end up eating your shield and shieldstabbing you. There's no attack that ZSS can do out of shield to stop this.

Your argument about Snake is pretty weak, no offense. I already made a description for him so I'll just leave it at that...

 

[Nitros14]

Why is Bowser worse off than Ganondorf? I find that curious.

 

[fkacyan]

She is still a character that most people know little about

QFT. I've taken matches and sometimes sets off of players I consider better than myself simply because they never have played a Zamus before.

 

[Dpete]

What does the ZSS community think of the match-up against Kirby? In the Kirby forums we are working on a thread similar to this one, and we are having a slight problem coming to a consensus regarding this match-up.

 

[smaci92]

great! can't wait for the meta knight description

 

[fkacyan]

great! can't wait for the meta knight description

Run away, bait a dash attack, hit it with a neutral B / dsmash. Space as best you can with sideB, but make sure he can't hit you as it starts.

You can't put pressure on him, he does it to you. It really comes down to spacing, because if you manage to stay out of his range he has far fewer options.

This being said, Snakeee probably has a better idea of the matchup, as he regularly plays an MK far more than I do.

 

[ph00tbag]

What does the ZSS community think of the match-up against Kirby? In the Kirby forums we are working on a thread similar to this one, and we are having a slight problem coming to a consensus regarding this match-up.

I've always considered it to be fairly tough. Kirby is short enough that a lot of attacks are difficult to land, and he's got a very good aerial approach which can throw ZSS off. Kirby also has very little trouble pressuring Zamus with dash attacks and aerials.

Zamus kind of sort of outranges Kirby, and can combo him with Plasma Wire relatively easily at low percents. Kirby's also somewhat lighter than Zamus, so he's slightly easier to KO. However, these are all things that make the matchup slightly in Kirby's favor.

 

[doctorjuice]

Hmm your list is pretty spot on snake but I've got some questions. Why is lucario such a bad matchup? I haven't really had that much trouble with him. Captain falcon I'd say should be at 6/4 i've had some trouble with him before. Ike is real real easy for me i think he should be 7/3. Wolf you can downsmash chain and i haven't really had much trouble with him either. I've had a little trouble with TL but i've never lost to one before so I'd say its just cause he annoys the crap out of me XD Uhh Pit is annoying but I've never lost to a Pit before. Everything looks pretty spot on though. AiB is down lol so i guess i'll be hanging out here for a bit.

 

[Snakeee]

Hmm your list is pretty spot on snake but I've got some questions. Why is lucario such a bad matchup? I haven't really had that much trouble with him. Captain falcon I'd say should be at 6/4 i've had some trouble with him before. Ike is real real easy for me i think he should be 7/3. Wolf you can downsmash chain and i haven't really had much trouble with him either. I've had a little trouble with TL but i've never lost to one before so I'd say its just cause he annoys the crap out of me XD Uhh Pit is annoying but I've never lost to a Pit before. Everything looks pretty spot on though. AiB is down lol so i guess i'll be hanging out here for a bit.

Lucario is pretty much unpunishable in the air, which is where ZSS shines a lot. He is hard to approach, as his projectile beats yours. Even when you get close, his priority destroys yours. To make matters worse, he is very hard to hit.

I might agree about Falcon, he's better than we give credit for, his speeds a little better than yours so you it's not that hard for him to close the gap on ZSS. So I'll think about making it 6/4.

Ike is fine how it is. It's definitely ZSS' advantage, but if you've played a really good Ike player, he can be hard to deal with sometimes. You really have to camp him a lot when you can. ZSS can't really get through his jabs, and he can kill her at low percentages.

Wolf you can D smash chain.....but it's near impossible to even D smash him once if he's good, and then if you mess up that one hit it's all for nothing. It's like I said with Fox, but much worse. You do NOT want to get in that space where you can D smash him anyway. He can F smash you or simply grab you before you get out that D smash, and if he expects it you'll be in more trouble.

TL only destroys ZSS if you give him the space to do so. I keep thinking that it should be his favor for a few reasons, but it seems that if you play this match up intelligently, the favor may even tip to ZSS (though I think it's around even). When ZSS closes the gap on TL, there isn't much he can do to punish her really.While she has him in the air, she can actually combo him decently. Her Up B usually even pulls him down through his D-air. On a side note, I used to think that ZSS' Up B had a lot of priority because of this, but it doesn't really. The reason is probably that it hits TL and Link's side or their head.

Pit I believe I explained enough already.

Hmm, I'm adding these to my descriptions.

EDIT: I thought I had a description for Pit, but I just made one now

 

[fkacyan]

TL has his bair in the air, though. If he starts whipping that out it's reaaaaaaaally bad for ZSS.

 

[doctorjuice]

Hmm i guess the thing is I've never really played any real good ikes, good lucarios, good wolfs, or good pits i guess. I'd need to play some more lucarios to observe anything about him, same with wolf. TL now that I think about it isn't very bad to fight. His spam just annoys me XD

 

[doctorjuice]

That can always be bad but if you time your airdodge right you can get out of it real quickly.

 

[Snakeee]

That can always be bad but if you time your airdodge right you can get out of it real quickly.

Yup, you can also down B out of it, the move's speed I think is comparable to airdodging actually. And when this happens offstage you can sometimes even spike the opponent.
The b airs can get annoying sometimes since it's hard to approach while he camps those so I know what you mean Thiocyanide.

 

[ph00tbag]

I just realized that your list doesn't have ZSS in it. Shame on you, forgetting your own main.

 

[Snakeee]

I just realized that your list doesn't have ZSS in it. Shame on you, forgetting your own main.

Lol ok it just feels silly doing that.

I've got some changes to make. I had thought ICs was one of her worst match ups, but I seriously have to reconsider after JV 3 stocking Nintendude's ICs o_O....he beat me with G&W though

 

[Snakeee]

Sorry for a double post, but this needed a bump since I added Luigi...also I changed him to a 6/4 Luigi's favor.

 

[Phazonin]

Lucario is pretty much unpunishable in the air, which is where ZSS shines a lot. He is hard to approach, as his projectile beats yours. Even when you get close, his priority destroys yours. To make matters worse, he is very hard to hit.

I definitely agree with this. He's difficult to hit in the air because of his dair. On the ground, a good Lucario who uses the aura sphere effectively is very difficult to deal with. His jabs and tilts have good range, plus, his grab comes out incredibly fast. Tough match up indeed.

 

[Beetle Juice]

Snakeee you should of recorded our match just to show how to beat a falco lol.

 

[Snakeee]

Snakeee you should of recorded our match just to show how to beat a falco lol.

Heh, well it involves a lot of caution and crawling under lasers XD. Btw, I forgot to congratulate you for getting 5th at your 2nd tourney o_O .

 

[Beetle Juice]

lmao i didnt kno what place i was in but it's actually my third time going to that tourny. After i lost to bum in the winners it felt like it helped knowing whats my next step to the top. So what place did you come in snakeee?

P.S. I won't be in the tourny for a while because I'm broke =( and even if i'm john'ing my butt off but mask sucks all he does is tornadoe all day in both singles and doubles w/ metaknight. You still are the best ZSS i've played and the only that beat me so I have much respect for you =)

 

[Snakeee]

lmao i didnt kno what place i was in but it's actually my third time going to that tourny. After i lost to bum in the winners it felt like it helped knowing whats my next step to the top. So what place did you come in snakeee?

P.S. I won't be in the tourny for a while because I'm broke =( and even if i'm john'ing my butt off but mask sucks all he does is tornadoe all day in both singles and doubles w/ metaknight. You still are the best ZSS i've played and the only that beat me so I have much respect for you =)

I split the pot with Bum and Ninja Link that time.
Mask is pretty good, but I agree he is quite the spammy Meta.
And I understand money johns I couldn't go a couple times because of that myself lol...and thanks for the respect you have a lot of potential for someone that doesn't have much tourney experience.
Well that's enough off topic stuff for now

 

[fkacyan]

I need a Sonic description here...

I beat Blue's Sonic at Montage 2 but this guy at SWR IV wrecked me; I barely got him to one stock each round.

 

[3GOD]

Can you maybe give you opinion (description) on Mr. Game & Watch? I've been considering using ZSS against G&W since she seems to do fairly well for me in this match up. The G&W board has it listed as even, and I think that's probably true.

 

[Kyriel]

Not too sure if I agree with Diddy's 4/6--I just find too many cons.

-Smaller target
-Better shorthop
-Faster moves in general
-Bananas disable ground movement/attacks/approaches

I feel as though it's more of a 3/7, or a 2/8.

 

[fkacyan]

Can you maybe give you opinion (description) on Mr. Game & Watch? I've been considering using ZSS against G&W since she seems to do fairly well for me in this match up. The G&W board has it listed as even, and I think that's probably true.

Protip: Don't downsmash unless you know he can't bucket.

 

[Snakeee]

I added descriptions for G&W and Sonic. I guess I'm basically adding characters on request now. I'll eventually organize the characters when the descriptions fill up more.

EDIT: Metaknight description + tips added. I also changed Metaknight to an Even match up.

 

[Adapt]

you still have fox on there twice (forgot to delete the 6/4 entry after changing it)

 

[Snakeee]

you still have fox on there twice (forgot to delete the 6/4 entry after changing it)

Fixed, thanks for pointing that out.

 

[ADHD]

I really disagree that this matchup is in diddy's favor. I've been ***** by more than one zamus player, she is impossible for me to approach and I have to abuse my nanerz.

 

[fkacyan]

I really disagree that this matchup is in diddy's favor. I've been ***** by more than one zamus player, she is impossible for me to approach and I have to abuse my nanerz.

Snakeee (One of the best ZSSs) plays NL (A **** good Diddy) quite often. I think he knows the matchup better than you do.

Just a thought.

 

[ADHD]

Snakeee (One of the best ZSSs) plays NL (A **** good Diddy) quite often. I think he knows the matchup better than you do.

Just a thought.

Here is what player 1 has to say about it, another one of one of the best diddys.

He rated her very weak in his matchup analysis.

"Zamus is really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really times 10, annoying. She is very hard to approach, and Diddy has poor approaching skills, and if you mess up prepared to be stunned to death. You WILL be punished if you have approach her poorly. I find that Diddy's side b is the best, but too easy to sheild grab if you use a kick and with no kick you have to be closer to grab her, which can be troubling if she gets her stun gun out."

But then again, its just a thought.

Edit: You live in monclaire? Thats cool you're pretty close to me actually, where do you attend tournaments?

 

[Snakeee]

Shield grab your Side B? That doesn't sound feasible for ZSS. I say Diddy is the one who is annoying with his bananas -_- . You don't really have to approach me, just wait until I trip on one of them. NL has amazing banana tricks and mind games, and most other Diddy players I've seen and played haven't taken them to the extent that he has. Maybe that's why the match up is harder for them.

 

[ph00tbag]

Personally, whenever I watch Nanerz or AZ play, their bananas scare the hell out of me, so I'm not surprised at all by Snakeee's judgement, especially if he plays a good one often.

 

[fkacyan]

He plays Ninjalink. Ninjalink. The dude's Diddy is disgusting good.

Chrome, I go to NY weeklies and whatever's going on in NJ. I'll PM you about tourneys I hear about, though I'm gonna tell you now, the NJ / NY scene is probably one of the harder ones to get started in, as we have a pretty high saturation of pro players here.

 

[ADHD]

He plays Ninjalink. Ninjalink. The dude's Diddy is disgusting good.

Chrome, I go to NY weeklies and whatever's going on in NJ. I'll PM you about tourneys I hear about, though I'm gonna tell you now, the NJ / NY scene is probably one of the harder ones to get started in, as we have a pretty high saturation of pro players here.

Lol I don't plan on going to tournaments just so I can brush over easy competition and just learn nothing.

 

[Snakeee]

Lol I don't plan on going to tournaments just so I can brush over easy competition and just learn nothing.

Um....what???? At first I thought you were bashing NY/NJ, but in the middle of my post I realized you probably meant you want the challenge lol.

 

[fkacyan]

Um....what???? At first I thought you were bashing NY/NJ, but in the middle of my post I realized you probably meant you want the challenge lol.

Haha, yeah, I had to reread that a few times.

What I meant, tho, is that this region requires the most investment of time and money before you start seeing returns, if any at all. Right now I'm as good as the top people were in April, and that's when I started going to tournies. It's a tough scene.

 

[ADHD]

Haha, yeah, I had to reread that a few times.

What I meant, tho, is that this region requires the most investment of time and money before you start seeing returns, if any at all. Right now I'm as good as the top people were in April, and that's when I started going to tournies. It's a tough scene.

Alright, thanks I'd appreciate it, I heard montage is having another tourney before the end of the summer, do you know anything about that?

 

[fkacyan]

Alright, thanks I'd appreciate it, I heard montage is having another tourney before the end of the summer, do you know anything about that?

Inui has jury duty and it's his venue... Probably in September.

 

[Snakeee]

I changed Fox to 6/4 ZSS, and Snake to 6/4 Snake. I'm considering changing Dedede to even for a couple of reasons too. I'll add on this tomorrow I'm wayyy too tired to give this any thought now.

EDIT: I almost completely changed my description of Snake.