Adapt
Smash Lord
yoshi shouldn't be able to grab out of invincibility frames... otherwise you could grab someone in a roll or spotdodge
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ZSS Match-up Odds (Descriptions added)
- Thread starter Snakeee
- Start date
Mmac
Smash Lord
Aren't those Dodge Frames?
Edit4phootbag: My point is that it's really not that hard to do at all. 10-15 Minute's of practise is really all you need for her and everyone with a similar release path and recovery time. Also, if it's so minor, then why are you guys basically saying that without it, Yoshi drops a 10% chance of winning in the matchup?
Adapt
Smash Lord
I'm pretty sure dodges use invincibility frames... but then again, I may be wrong. What about Marth's up-B can you grab out of the beginning of that move? Or better yet, Wolf's reflector.
The game views them as the same thing. They are frames in which your hurtbox ceases to interact with hitboxes.
Also, I just checked, and you're absolutely wrong on this point.
Are you saying a running grab directly out of an animation? As in, if you're a frame too early on pressing Z, you roll? And if you're a frame too late, you miss? Are you telling me I can learn how to do this in 15 minutes? It seems like a lot more effort, especially against a character that your match-up isn't bad against to begin with, and who can easily get out if you mess up even a little.
Frankly, learning how to do that is not worth it unless it means I'll always beat a character every time if I get it right.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I never tied Marth's UpB, but I have grabbed MetaKnight out of a grounded UpB a few times (I heard that has invincibility frames also), and to make sure that he could grab invincibility framed attacks, Wolf's reflector was the first thing I tested. Indeed he can.
I'm not saying that at all. Buffering means that you can do the input before the frames in his animation is finish, and do a Dash Grab like it was frame perfect, and taking out some of the work. you still need to have some reactions, but it's nowhere near as close as hard if it was truly frame perfect
It's not an instant win type of thing, but it does help out in this matchup. It's important for Yoshi to gain control, and that what it does
No. He can't. Unless his grab comes out much later than I thought. I have seen Yoshi's tongue sit there overlapping Wolf's hurtbox uselessly, only to have the reflector interrupt the grab. Yoshi can't grab people out of invincibility. I'm beginning to wonder what your testing methods are.
You can't buffer grabs.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I could never dodge Yoshi's grab with Wolf Reflector. I had it so that it's spaced where Wolf (Controlled by me) is on the ledge and can still be grabbed, but the Reflector won't interrupt (Not sure if that's the problem). I could never escape the grab with the reflector, and the frames didn't do a thing. I always got grabbed right away no matter when I timed the reflector. Also did you test it using Running Grabs? Yoshi sometimes doesn't grab point blank with it.
Uh.... Yes you can... or else it's another unique characteristic to Yoshi >_>
Edit: Speaking of, is there really a point to this? I mean we're going completely off topic now
Sudai
Stuff here
Wolf has a lot less invincibility than ZSS on his down-b and he doesn't move at all with it. The grabbox is probably still over wolf by the time his minute invincibility wears off and that's probably why his doesn't work.
Snakeee
Smash Master
A few minor edits made, and Sonic changed to 6/4 ZSS. He really can't approach her well since his B moves are punished with up airs and back airs out of shield.
Then you grabbed him when his invincibility ended. Wolf's reflector only has invincibility for one or two frames. Yoshi's grab box stays out for probably three or four once fully extended. You can do the math.
Whenever I buffer a grab, I put up a shield. I don't know about you.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Maybe, but how do you explain MetaKnight? Unless they're ****ting me about it having invincibility frames....
I buffer grabs all the time, so I don't know about you, but you're probably doing it too early. I do it just when the animation is about to end, and it rarely fails me
They're probably bull****ting you.
Well, I can say that I'm not the only one who has experienced this. That's all. Until there is some means to test this frame for frame, then we'll never know.
Adapt
Smash Lord
I haven't seen any evidence of invincible frames on MK's shuttle loop, unless it's like a frame long.
Mmac
Smash Lord
You know, I'm talking about a GROUNDED Shuttle Loop, not an Aerial one. Thats what Sinz tells me, so yell at him, not me if it isn't true
Guess what I did my tests with. I'd be happy to check with the aerial one if you'd like.
Mmac
Smash Lord
With what? With who? What was the results? Not to mention you did your testing very fast >_>
Besides, this has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS MATCHUP IN THE FIRST PLACE! How is this going to prevent a chaingrab on ZSS by Yoshi due to MetaKnight not having Invincibility Frames? It doesn't matter if I was wrong about it. The point is that Yoshi can still Chaingrab her, and Yoshi can rechaingrab her on a Flip Jump, no matter what you do.
Snakeee
Smash Master
You said you can only cg her if you anticipate the flip jump right? So, if I decided NOT to do the flip jump on an occasion couldn't that cause you to mess up? I'm not sure if I followed you there, but it makes sense if it's how I'm thinking it its.
Also, I'm not completely convinced that she can't get out of it in the first place.
Also, I'm not completely convinced that she can't get out of it in the first place.
Mmac
Smash Lord
no, I said that Yoshi can only CG her if Yoshi screws up on reacting. Yoshi can still chaingrab her normally, And it's still pretty much the same now, just a few frames less to react. My gripe is that using Flip Jump as an escape isn't really an escape at all because you'll still won't beable to escape with it. It could be used to reduce the damage of the CG, but it could just as easily set you up for a kill. I haven't tested yet if Yoshi can Usmash ZSS before she recovers if she flip jumps away from Yoshi. If he does, then the entire thing can make it much worse.
Maybe the best way to prove it is to show it to you yourself. Or you can just test it yourself if you have a friend willing to help you test stuff with you.
Read the quote, then read my post. Also, it doesn't take long to see that Zamus' Jab can interupt Shuttle loop in the first frames. If anything, Shuttle Loop may have exactly one invincibility frame (which I doubt) on the very first frame. But We encounter the same problem you saw with Wolf: Yoshi's grabbox is out longer than a frame.
You used the Metaknight invincibility frames bit to show that Yoshi can grab during invincibility frames. I've debunked both claims, and now I'm done. Now you just have yourself yelling that Yoshi can still chaingrab ZSS, which I still have to question, because of what I've seen of your methods thus far.
And if ZSS can escape from the chaingrab, then she can Flip Jump in either direction, which puts it on you to predict which direction she's going to go. If you're expecting her not to escape and go for a dash grab, she'll get out. If not, then you can't just wait; you have to start running in case she goes backwards.
Sudai
Stuff here
Also, I know Yoshi has invincibility on his head during his USmash, but is that just during the pre-hitbox phase or during the hitbox phase as well? A curious mind inquires. :o
Mmac
Smash Lord
Again, I didn't claim GSL had invincibility. I was just taking someone elses word for it. Sh he's wrong. Sue me. It still doesn't have any relevance on this matchup at all. So I don't know why we continue to linger on this especially since it has nothing to do with this topic at all
So because I was wrong on someone elses account, and doesn't prove anything except that small framed invincibility framed attacks can't be used to dodge long lasting ranged grabs, is going to make my efforts and comments unjustified? And how are my methods flawed? Getting a friend, testing for 10-60 Minutes, and see if it works. I think it's a hell of alot better and reliable than testing with CPU's.
The only problem is that Yoshi is still in the process of a Dash Grab when ZSS is in the act of a Flip Jump in the first frames. So unless you're blind, you don't have to predict at all
Read the words that I have posted. Your unsubstantiated claims make me question the provenance of your tests in general.
It's going to mean that I can't rely on you and your friend alone now, because I don't know how much rigor your putting into your tests. Nothing short of frame data will convince me now.
Okay, if ZSS can escape, the timing of this is close enough that there's a question about it, so the Flip Jump will have to have started by the time Yoshi is already in a dash grab animation has already been initiated, which means Yoshi is committed to the move and can't turn around or keep on running.
doomweasel
Smash Cadet
I don't think yoshi's usmash has invincibility frames during the hitbox, but don't quote me on that. You might wanna ask on the Yoshi board. They'll know for sure.
BTW, what's going on with all this arguing? It's clear that it's has gotten us nowhere, so it's pointless to continue until a skilled programmer brings detailed frame data. Why not agree to disagree for now, and move on to a new topic?
Snakeee
Smash Master
If you go to this link then click on the first set on related videos, he tries the grab at around 3:40. Eh, it looks like he could have timed it wrong there, but that's the only possible video evidence I have right now. Btw, I accidentally did the attack part out of it that time lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJKvAz1xL4k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJKvAz1xL4k&feature=related
Mmac
Smash Lord
It was actually 5:53, and that Grab looked kinda late. He ran right away but delayed the grab for some reason.
Snakeee
Smash Master
It definitely happened at 3:40...you must have misunderstood and thought it was on the link itself. But, he probably tried it there too. I said at 3:40 on Set 1 in the "Related Videos". The direct link to the first set won't work so I sent you to the second one.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Ah, I see. Pretty much the same deal there, though alittle less spaced apart (He needs to Dash and Grab at the same time to do it though). Judging from the multiple failed buffered grabs in both sets, I say he doesn't really have Chaingrabbing down yet.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I made a lot of changes, but the only description I changed a bit was Lucario's.
Lucario = 6/4 Lucario
Pit = 6/4 Pit
Falco = 7/3 Falco
Peach = 6/4 ZSS
Game & Watch = 6/4 ZSS
Captain Falcon = 7/3 ZSS
Samus = 6/4 ZSS
Lucario = 6/4 Lucario
Pit = 6/4 Pit
Falco = 7/3 Falco
Peach = 6/4 ZSS
Game & Watch = 6/4 ZSS
Captain Falcon = 7/3 ZSS
Samus = 6/4 ZSS
D1
Banned via Administration
You have Samus twice in the list for 7/3 and 6/4 and I told you I was serious when I said I wanna pick up this char ^_^.
FBM
Smash Apprentice
7/3 Falco eh?
Ouch, did you run into someone amazing?
Ouch, did you run into someone amazing?
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
Falco = 7/3
Game & Watch = 55/45 ZSS
Bowser 55/45 ZSS
Falco= Your right.
Mr. Game and Watch= I was playing Velocity and Vex and they gimped me well(and yes i used down be correctly). He can bucket your moves, but if u out play him hes easy to kill.
Bowser= Bowser is a high tier character. Look at Vex. Grab Release on ZSS works(both ground and jump release). And bowser can bowsercide you and control the DI even if you have 1 higher % then the bowser.
Game & Watch = 55/45 ZSS
Bowser 55/45 ZSS
Falco= Your right.
Mr. Game and Watch= I was playing Velocity and Vex and they gimped me well(and yes i used down be correctly). He can bucket your moves, but if u out play him hes easy to kill.
Bowser= Bowser is a high tier character. Look at Vex. Grab Release on ZSS works(both ground and jump release). And bowser can bowsercide you and control the DI even if you have 1 higher % then the bowser.
Meta_Sonic64
Smash Master
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Really 7/3 against falco? I thought it was more 60/40 or 65/35 in falcos favor.
I agree with most of the other stuff tho.
I agree with most of the other stuff tho.
Snakeee
Smash Master
The match up with G&W depends on how well he can read you. Because if he is predicting your d-smashes you are in trouble. I still think it's ZSS' favor though.
I don't think Bowser is high tier, but he has his strengths. Are you sure about the grab release? I'm betting she can Down B out of that, but don't quote me on it yet. It's strongly ZSS' favor either way though I think because it's hard for him to grab her with her spacing/camping game.
no, but he's really good from what I could tell from wifi.
I realized ZSS can't really do anything from the ground. She can't make use of D-smash or Side B. If she crawls under the lasers she is vulnerable, especially to D-air. That D-air also prevents her from being able to hit him in the air most of the time. It could be 65/35, but I haven't used odd numbers like that yet. I'll consider it though when I practice the match up more.
I can't see the Falco match-up being quite that bad. Zamus has trouble approaching, yes, but you can dtilt or shield out of a crawl, both of which give you good defensive approach options. I imagine shielding dairs out of crawl would be a good answer, especially if you're staying out of range of rising fairs. Then your only real worry is Reflector.
Then again, he's also easy to combo and edgeguard, so that's a balancing factor; once you're in you're in.
Then again, he's also easy to combo and edgeguard, so that's a balancing factor; once you're in you're in.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
I agree with Falco being a terribad matchup. Lasers are annoying as hell to approach and space. The D-Air gives him a pretty good combo breaker. I haven't personally tried crawling, maybe that will even it out for me. I just can't imagine being able to out-camp a Falco, lol.
As for Peach, why do you think that it's in ZSS's advantage? From my perspective, she has very good aerial control, which is where ZSS wants to be. This is true for all of our bad matchups, if someone can control the air -better- than us, it's generally a bad matchup (read: Marth, Metaknight, Lucario, etc.). She can exploit the angled approach that ZSS has problems with. She can stay in our dead-zone with proper float spacing. She's got great shield pressure with float cancelled aerials. Not to mention you'll hardly ever be able to get D-Smashes on a Peach since she'll probably never be on the ground. It's also very difficult to space her with Side-B since, again, she'll hardly ever be on the ground. The only thing we got going here is performing rising aerials on her float.
Personally I think Peach is a slight disadvantage to us. 45/55.
As for Peach, why do you think that it's in ZSS's advantage? From my perspective, she has very good aerial control, which is where ZSS wants to be. This is true for all of our bad matchups, if someone can control the air -better- than us, it's generally a bad matchup (read: Marth, Metaknight, Lucario, etc.). She can exploit the angled approach that ZSS has problems with. She can stay in our dead-zone with proper float spacing. She's got great shield pressure with float cancelled aerials. Not to mention you'll hardly ever be able to get D-Smashes on a Peach since she'll probably never be on the ground. It's also very difficult to space her with Side-B since, again, she'll hardly ever be on the ground. The only thing we got going here is performing rising aerials on her float.
Personally I think Peach is a slight disadvantage to us. 45/55.