ZSS General Discussion

[Youngster Joey]

i feel so out of place posting here. too many good players! oh well. i wanna start maining zss so is there anything i need to know? i know the grab is bad and so is f smash so almost never use them. but what are good reasons to main zss?

 

[infiniteV115]

For now never use fsmash until you feel like you've developed a full understanding of how she works as a character.
Grab should be used sparingly, but still use it.

ZSS is a very mobile character with an amazing aerial game and a good enough ground game. She's very good at juggling and she shines when you're able to bait and punish airdodges, because then you can land really strong punishes like her aerials/dsmash/sideB, as well as some weaker punishes (for positional advantage) like tilts/dash attack/grab/usmash/laser.
You can also bait and punish rolls/spotdodges with dsmash, but that's a little harder.
She has the most true-combos in the game, has an insane damage output when you learn to follow up properly, and most of her attacks either come out quickly, or come out slowly but are safe even if you miss/hit the opponent's shield. She also has very good range overall.

Playing her will help you develop a good understanding of positioning, proper move spacing, safe aggression, baiting and mixing up your followups to keep yourself safe in situations that are more-or-less RPS.
Not to mention she will make you SIGNIFICANTLY better with items, and there are certain (more or less tech-skill intensive) techniques that work really well with her, but aren't necessary and she can do without (turnaroundBs, b-reverses and wavebounces, platform cancels, power shielding, buffered reverse tilts, buffering in general, jab cancelling)

Her flaws are
- Lightweight
- Close-range game is mediocre at best
- Mediocre out-of-shield options
- Bad grab
- Her hitboxes are out for a very short amount of time (this hurts her a LOT in the Olimar MU)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Don't completely write fsmash off. There are situations where it is usable, for example if you dsmash someone on the right side of the stage when your other kill options are stale or something. Fsmash could be a good choice there.

It is not going to be your first choice in almost any circumstance, but it works when it works, if that makes sense.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I miss norad

I also miss the other fallen ZSS boardites:

Nef, Zero, shlike, Cake, Snakeee, ph00tbag. Though ph00tbag still posts in GD.

I'd miss Thiocyanide more if he didn't post so much.

Who am I forgetting? There was ThreeSided, a few other guys that posted occasionally like him... FadedImage... Dazwa never posted but we loved him anyway... uhh...

I think everyone else from 08/09 is still around... Xonar, myself, NickRiddle, Dakpo? Though tbh Xonar just trolls now.

Yeah, Xonar. I went there.

 

[NickRiddle]

90% of my posts are trolling too.
Or saying people are bad.
Which is true.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I miss norad

I also miss the other fallen ZSS boardites:

Nef, Zero, shlike, Cake, Snakeee, ph00tbag. Though ph00tbag still posts in GD.

I'd miss Thiocyanide more if he didn't post so much.

Who am I forgetting? There was ThreeSided, a few other guys that posted occasionally like him... FadedImage... Dazwa never posted but we loved him anyway... uhh...

I think everyone else from 08/09 is still around... Xonar, myself, NickRiddle, Dakpo? Though tbh Xonar just trolls now.

Yeah, Xonar. I went there.

I do just troll, but that's mainly because people are just ******** these days.

Then again, I do love these boards. :hamtaro:

 

[PEACE7]

The ZSS boards are amazing and Xonar knows a **** ton of stuff so its all good xD

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Did you guys know that if you buffer a sh uair you can nair before touching the ground

Feels a little like Marth's sh bair falling fair nonsense.

 

[fkacyan]

I miss norad

I also miss the other fallen ZSS boardites:

Nef, Zero, shlike, Cake, Snakeee, ph00tbag. Though ph00tbag still posts in GD.

I'd miss Thiocyanide more if he didn't post so much.

Who am I forgetting? There was ThreeSided, a few other guys that posted occasionally like him... FadedImage... Dazwa never posted but we loved him anyway... uhh...

I think everyone else from 08/09 is still around... Xonar, myself, NickRiddle, Dakpo? Though tbh Xonar just trolls now.

Yeah, Xonar. I went there.

How could you not want me around every moment of every day

 

[Youngster Joey]

wow thats a lot. the only other time ive seen that kind of a write up was with a lucario moderator explaining lucario.. haha so im guessing im gonna need more than a month to moderately understand zss? im working on month long increments with mains. wolfs time is just about up. zss might be next

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zero suit is a worthless character unless you main her and pretty worthless even if you main her unless you dedicate a lot of time to getting better.

There's too much to know on a match-up-to-match-up basis and too much technical nonsense to master to use her in a tournament setting unless you know exactly what you're doing.

 

[NickRiddle]

ZSS is silly.

 

[Youngster Joey]

its not like im picking up the game for the first time. i know how other characters play but idk how to play them. i can learn how an mu works after like a game or 2. i just cant master it till i consistently play that mu. im sure its the same with all characters but i can get any character up to a decent level within a week. im just looking to moderately understand her for now. not exactly master her

 

[NickRiddle]

ZSS's basics are unlike any other character.
Her general approaches are different.
It should take you a few months to understand just why shields are hard to get around.
Then a year to get good at getting around shields.
She's not very easy to play.

 

[C.J.]

Spam dsmash, it's safe on shield.

I don't see what's so hard.

 

[fkacyan]

ZSS's basics are unlike any other character.
Her general approaches are different.
It should take you a few months to understand just why shields are hard to get around.
Then a year to get good at getting around shields.
She's not very easy to play.

ZSS is as easy as any other character to play, it's just that the shield mechanics in Brawl **** her over.

ZSS would be ****ing bonkers with Melee's shield mechanics.

Spam dsmash, it's safe on shield.

I don't see what's so hard.

Not on powershield, and hitting a shield doesn't do anything but reset the situation.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Everyone sucks when you PS evertyhing

 

[fkacyan]

Everyone sucks when you PS evertyhing

Yeah but Dsmash has a obvious startup, unlike, say utilt, which is good for mixups but unreliable on even regular shields.

 

[NickRiddle]

ZSS is as easy as any other character to play, it's just that the shield mechanics in Brawl **** her over.

ZSS would be ****ing bonkers with Melee's shield mechanics.



Not on powershield, and hitting a shield doesn't do anything but reset the situation.

Well, since this is SSBB, and the shield mechanics are as such, you need different basics.
Grabbing is a fundamental tool in Brawl, and ZSS doesn't really have that option often.

 

[fkacyan]

Well, since this is SSBB, and the shield mechanics are as such, you need different basics.
Grabbing is a fundamental tool in Brawl, and ZSS doesn't really have that option often.

No kidding. Ugh so much startup AND ending frames, whryyyyyyy

 

[NickRiddle]

Every grab type the same yyyyyyyyyyy
WHY CANT WE HAVE OLIMAR'S ****ING PIVOT GRAB? WE'D BE ********!

 

[fkacyan]

Every grab type the same yyyyyyyyyyy
WHY CANT WE HAVE OLIMAR'S ****ING PIVOT GRAB? WE'D BE ********!

Ignoring ledge bull**** Olimar is probably the best character in the game

Great OOS options, pivot grab, and that ****ing whistle

THAT WHISTLE

I'd settle for just taking the kill power on his throws, would solve one of her larger issues.

 

[NickRiddle]

Olimar has evenish MUs though.
ICs at least. (From what I saw, Ness and Ike don't do poorly either.)
We just suck at the MU/lose it.

 

[fkacyan]

Olimar has evenish MUs though.
ICs at least. (From what I saw, Ness and Ike don't do poorly either.)
We just suck at the MU/lose it.

ICs are the other candidate for best character in the game ignoring ledge shenanigans. :I

Ness can't really be taken as a main into a double blind, and neither can Ike, which really negates those two as threats. Kinda like if Bowser countered Fox in Melee, but if people knew you mained him they'd just take Sheik in.

Stagnant metagames make counterplay eliminate a lot of the cooler options.

 

[NickRiddle]

Assuming CPs exist.
Also forgot Falco, and arguably Marth too.
ICs lose to ZSS, so they can't be the best. How can you lose to a bad character and be the best?

 

[Neon!]

Zss with oli's grab would destroy almost every character in the game.

 

[NickRiddle]

Exactly .

 

[fkacyan]

Assuming CPs exist.
Also forgot Falco, and arguably Marth too.
ICs lose to ZSS, so they can't be the best. How can you lose to a bad character and be the best?

ICs don't lose to ZSS tho.

:x

 

[NickRiddle]

I still don't see how.

 

[infiniteV115]

Everyone sucks when you PS evertyhing

PSing actually doesn't reduce shield hitlag/shield stun (according to KPrime anyway) so dsmash would still be -4/0 on block.

 

[Darky-Sama]

ICs feel so free as ZSS. Especially when you're abusing her down+B extended jump for spacing; and side+B to help desync. I've never had much trouble with that match-up. Then again, most of the ICs I've played are too reliant on trying to grab ZSS in the stupidest situations. :/

 

[ViperGold42]

I think I've decieded to use ZSS for doubles only. what you think everyone?

 

[blacktwins13]

Assuming CPs exist.
Also forgot Falco, and arguably Marth too.
ICs lose to ZSS, so they can't be the best. How can you lose to a bad character and be the best?

y don't you ask V that question
i say the mu is sort of even

 

[Darky-Sama]

I think I've decieded to use ZSS for doubles only. what you think everyone?

Doubles only?

Not a bad decision though. She can play aggressive or keepaway pretty well if you wanted to tank for your partner-- and she's good at keeping teammates alive. lol Not to mention, if you get the other team down to one character, she has some pretty flashy infinites involving downsmash > partner footstool > downsmash.

I use ZSS occasionally when teaming with Lord Helmet, instead of our double Falcon team. We would just do that into Falcon's Knee or a Falcon Punch to take out the last stock.

 

[fkacyan]

ICs feel so free as ZSS. Especially when you're abusing her down+B extended jump for spacing; and side+B to help desync. I've never had much trouble with that match-up. Then again, most of the ICs I've played are too reliant on trying to grab ZSS in the stupidest situations. :/

Most people just play ICs for the CG and don't bother learning any of their other fundamentals.

 

[infiniteV115]

1: I'm bad vs ICs
2: Even if it's even, ICs go even with multiple characters (even high/mid tiers) and MK beats everyone (except maybe going even with Falco)

 

[fkacyan]

1: I'm bad vs ICs
2: Even if it's even, ICs go even with multiple characters (even high/mid tiers) and MK beats everyone (except maybe going even with Falco)

People still think MK is the best

Hooo boy.

Well, we'll come back to this discussion in a few years after the metagame has some more time to progress down the path its moving down.

Also, Falco is one of MK's easiest matchups.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Well, he is still the best, but I see where you're going that.
People have and likely always will overrate Meta Knight. Obvious reasons.

And if we even have players in the next few years. I do find it funny though. After so many people have left the game, all that hard work and effort is finally paying off.

 

[fkacyan]

Well, he is still the best, but I see where you're going that.
People have and likely always will overrate Meta Knight. Obvious reasons.

And if we even have players in the next few years. I do find it funny though. After so many people have left the game, all that hard work and effort is finally paying off.

Not really. We still have a piss-poor community when it comes to actual analysis of the data we have. Some of the best attempts at getting that analysis rolling in the BBR have been more or less ignored, too.

And unfortunately, closer analysis of Brawl would lead to more optimal play which would make it less fun to watch, which is never good for a competitive game.