Zero Suit Samus Questions & Answers

[Paradigm]

I asked previously in this thread what to do out of a jab, and the response I got was to dtilt.

I play against an MK who can consistently shield my dtilt and hit me with a dsmash before I can do anything else. I can see the dtilt working against other characters, maybe, but either jab -> dtilt doesn't work on MK or I'm doing it wrong.

I've tried being tricky and doing other things, but essentially it always breaks down like this: After I successfully land a jab, the only other attack I can get in before he shields is the second jab, and there is nothing else after that which I can hit him with before his shield is up. ZSS's grab is to slow to punish the shield - it gets sidestepped.

The only safe thing I've found to do after a successful jab is to run away.

Am I doing something wrong or is this just how it goes against MK?

 

[Snakeee]

I asked previously in this thread what to do out of a jab, and the response I got was to dtilt.

I play against an MK who can consistently shield my dtilt and hit me with a dsmash before I can do anything else. I can see the dtilt working against other characters, maybe, but either jab -> dtilt doesn't work on MK or I'm doing it wrong.

I've tried being tricky and doing other things, but essentially it always breaks down like this: After I successfully land a jab, the only other attack I can get in before he shields is the second jab, and there is nothing else after that which I can hit him with before his shield is up. ZSS's grab is to slow to punish the shield - it gets sidestepped.

The only safe thing I've found to do after a successful jab is to run away.

Am I doing something wrong or is this just how it goes against MK?

Finally other people are realizing this....no there's nothing that really works 100% sadly.
I actually wasn't sure if dashing away worked legitimately after the jab, but it seems to.
I would usually do single jab then down B away. If the metaknight picks up on this I switch things up by randomly doing the attack out of the down B, and it will hit them if they chased you .
I think mixing this up, and the dash away is the only thing we can really do. Because if they expect you to dash away, they'll probably instantly dash grab you.

 

[Paradigm]

Thanks, it's nice to know I wasn't simply doing something wrong.

This leads to another question: Other than jab -> dash/down-b/sh/etc/away, what options do I have against a MK up close? Is my only real option to simply get away asap?

When away from MK but on the ground, do I have any options other than trying to bait MK to run into a over-b, neutral-b or dsmash? It seems to me that if any of these are legitimately in range to hit MK he'll have the option to powershield it and dashgrab me, so the whole match boils down to just SH'ing away with over-b's hoping he'll mistime a shield (rare) and run into one.

When MK is in the air I don't have too much trouble attacking with uairs, upsmashes and up-b's. Eventually, though, he comes down. The problem is the rest of the match seems to be dependent on my reading the MK far better than the MK has to read me.

Anything I'm missing in that? Any advice?

 

[Kewkky]

i usually tend to jab > spotdodge 2-3 times in a row, then roll backwards while they try to guess when the next spotdodge (which isn't happening) will end. Even if it's just 4-6% damage only, it's damage I gave them, and without a counter to shut me up.

 

[cba]

Umm
After a second jab, a Pivot Grab can catch them off-guard, im gonna try this in a real match.

And im sad to announce that im gonna become a tier wh0re.

 

[Mr.Ious]

I find that delaying the 2nd and 3rd jabs works surprisingly well as most people don't expect it.

 

[cba]

True, but delaying them can also give them the time they need to punish you.
Worst case scenario: DDD Utilt, Snake Ftilt, and Dolphin Slash(i hate this one)
Best Case Scenario: (I dont really know) dTilt

 

[Mr.Ious]

Yup, I guess the jab really is just a little minigame to test who has the better psychic abilities...

 

[cba]

I really hate Snakes Utilt, It can Out Prioritze Almost anything, i think.

Is there a thread of how to do a Worse/Best case scenario w/ ZSS?

 

[Snakeee]

Thanks, it's nice to know I wasn't simply doing something wrong.

This leads to another question: Other than jab -> dash/down-b/sh/etc/away, what options do I have against a MK up close? Is my only real option to simply get away asap?

When away from MK but on the ground, do I have any options other than trying to bait MK to run into a over-b, neutral-b or dsmash? It seems to me that if any of these are legitimately in range to hit MK he'll have the option to powershield it and dashgrab me, so the whole match boils down to just SH'ing away with over-b's hoping he'll mistime a shield (rare) and run into one.

When MK is in the air I don't have too much trouble attacking with uairs, upsmashes and up-b's. Eventually, though, he comes down. The problem is the rest of the match seems to be dependent on my reading the MK far better than the MK has to read me.

Anything I'm missing in that? Any advice?

You can try to camp him with side Bs/d-smash IF the metaknight player is not able to powershield those moves too often. Other than that, Meta has ZSS destroyed on the ground, and you just have to do what you can to get him in the air, and try to throw him off. Random pivot grabs are nice sometimes if he's going aggressive on you.

 

[Paradigm]

He'll powershield everything. I'll try reading his approaches and pivot grabbing, I guess. Maybe I can bait him to follow me into the air?

 

[Kaitou Ace]

Is ZSS's pivot grab any good?

 

[ph00tbag]

Is ZSS's pivot grab any good?

Not really. It's better for bait and punish tactics than her other grabs, but overall, it comes out slower, and is out just as long as her other grabs. And her options out of grab are only good on a few characters, so using the pivot grab really only has one truly good use, and that's giving you leave to pause the game, turn to your opponent and yell, "GOTCHA *****!"

 

[jibbyjaont]

How often do you guys use flip jump other than using it for survival?

 

[cba]

Flip jump kick is a VERY reliable killing move when your opponents recovery is predictable.

 

[jibbyjaont]

I meant to ask if you guys use it say on flat ground. Not when anybody is on the edge.

 

[Nefarious B]

Sometimes to mix up if I'm recovering high I use it. Also, and I need to get faster with this, but you can get out of "combos" that aren't true combos with it, but beware because they can punish the predictable trajectory if you're not smart about it.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

DO NOT use down b on the ground as an attack.

 

[Nefarious B]

Can you stale moves on the "objects" in Brinstar, the tendrils and the bulbs. If so, could you potentially stale your dsmash like, say, right after you got a star KO and use the long respawn time to stale it enough to make a dsmash chain workable? Just trying to think creatively.

 

[FadedImage]

technically yes, but at 20 frames a pop, it's gonna take you quite a while to hit with it 9 times. And then you're on brinstar, a stage that doesn't lend itself to dsmash chaining. Probably more reliable on a stage like Luigi's Mansion, but that's usually banned.

Good thinking though. d:


Here's an extra question to everyone:

How do YOU use retreating Side-Bs?

Now, I used to religiously short hop side-b, but the other day I noticed two of my SoCal ZSS buddies (Warp and Fierce) using grounded side-bs. I thought to myself, the mobility is so pooooor! How dare you!

I then quickly realized my error, the grounded side-b allows for ZSS to run any ground distance and immediately turn-around side-b (with use of special-pivot or wavebouncing or whatever it is you call it these days). Now, ZSS's ground speed is significantly better than her horizontal aerial speed, causing me to ask myself, which is better?

I've taken quite the liking to grounded side-bs, they seem much more difficult to dashing shield and I find myself overall getting punished much less. What do you guys think?

 

[oOJaseOo]

Id use both lol

but thats me im a Toon Link main and probably over mix things up if you catch my drift

 

[ph00tbag]

technically yes, but at 20 frames a pop, it's gonna take you quite a while to hit with it 9 times. And then you're on brinstar, a stage that doesn't lend itself to dsmash chaining. Probably more reliable on a stage like Luigi's Mansion, but that's usually banned.

Good thinking though. d:


Here's an extra question to everyone:

How do YOU use retreating Side-Bs?

Now, I used to religiously short hop side-b, but the other day I noticed two of my SoCal ZSS buddies (Warp and Fierce) using grounded side-bs. I thought to myself, the mobility is so pooooor! How dare you!

I then quickly realized my error, the grounded side-b allows for ZSS to run any ground distance and immediately turn-around side-b (with use of special-pivot or wavebouncing or whatever it is you call it these days). Now, ZSS's ground speed is significantly better than her horizontal aerial speed, causing me to ask myself, which is better?

I've taken quite the liking to grounded side-bs, they seem much more difficult to dashing shield and I find myself overall getting punished much less. What do you guys think?

I use both depending on my opponent and their character. Some characters don't really have an option against gounded Plasma Whip, while some do worse against SH Plasma Whip. Moreover, some people respond differently to each one.

 

[Nefarious B]

I've taken a liking to the grounded one recently too, I think it's good to mix them up but unless they're a character that is fast enough in the air to jump over the wire and punish the lag grounded seems better to me, and is usually less expected.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I do grounded pivot side b's. In place of retreating SH side b's I usually do SH RAR'd lasers instead. SHRside b's (which I think we should call it now to make things easier) seem to never hit when used imo since they're so telegraphed, and im not really a fan of the whole "keep-a-way" game with running away and spamming side b since it just delays them getting to you. pivot side b's are great to mix up your moves with in H2H. if timed right it can punish spot dodges. if your opponents spot dodges a lot it's a good move. but dont spam it though cuz when predicted all they gotta do is run, shield, then counter.

A good scenario to use is like when you have someone cornered near the edge and you're in their face. pivot side b is also a fantastic roll punisher if they try to roll behind you. when the person is cornered and you are pressuring them they might try to roll behind you. a well timed Pside b (see what I did there? :D) will make you dash backwards (where they are gonna be) then the side b, the first hit of it, will hit them into the 2nd one. It works great on a lot of characters.

It really doesnt work as a defensive tactic imo since the opponent will see it coming and punish you. use it offensively to throw them off when you have the momemtum.

 

[sasook]

DO NOT use down b on the ground as an attack.

I don't anymore, but come to think of it, I never knew why this was bad. Is it because of the landing lag? I know the trajectory is predictable but surely it can't be that bad if you rarely use it and throw it in unexpectedly right?

How do YOU use retreating Side-Bs?

Now, I used to religiously short hop side-b, but the other day I noticed two of my SoCal ZSS buddies (Warp and Fierce) using grounded side-bs. I thought to myself, the mobility is so pooooor! How dare you!

I then quickly realized my error, the grounded side-b allows for ZSS to run any ground distance and immediately turn-around side-b (with use of special-pivot or wavebouncing or whatever it is you call it these days). Now, ZSS's ground speed is significantly better than her horizontal aerial speed, causing me to ask myself, which is better?

I've taken quite the liking to grounded side-bs, they seem much more difficult to dashing shield and I find myself overall getting punished much less. What do you guys think?

Hmm, well I just want to ask for a distinction here - do you mean pivot side b's or stutter stepped side b's? By pivot, I mean running a good distance before doing so, whereas stutterstep is always 1 or 2 steps.

I guess if you had to ask me, I'd do a stutterstep one since the input is exactly the same as Link's stutterstep boomerang (even though no one cares lol), and IMO doing this can help maintain spacing a lot.

But that brings me to a question of my own:

Frankly, my defensive game sucks. My offensive game has improved, and I tend to rarely use sideb anymore (I've developed a liking to spec's style with the SH lasering a lot XD), but my defensive game is terrible. Any tips?

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I don't anymore, but come to think of it, I never knew why this was bad. Is it because of the landing lag? I know the trajectory is predictable but surely it can't be that bad if you rarely use it and throw it in unexpectedly right?

using down b as an attack onstage if probably even worse than using fsmash. even fsmash could hit if you use it right but it's not worth it. the risk is too high for both moves.

Frankly, my defensive game sucks. My offensive game has improved, and I tend to rarely use sideb anymore (I've developed a liking to spec's style with the SH lasering a lot XD), but my defensive game is terrible. Any tips?

It depends on what you mean by "defensive." If you mean acting campy then I think ZSS doesnt have what it takes to campy, people can get pass her defenses (*cough* side b *cough*) too easily for that. I think ZSS is more of the evasive defensive type. I just keep moving around dodging all my opponents moves using dash-backs, moving around in the air, and evasive down b's (if they're closing in and you have no other option) until I see an opening while still using lasers and a few side b's.

 

[noradseven]

I don't anymore, but come to think of it, I never knew why this was bad. Is it because of the landing lag? I know the trajectory is predictable but surely it can't be that bad if you rarely use it and throw it in unexpectedly right?



Hmm, well I just want to ask for a distinction here - do you mean pivot side b's or stutter stepped side b's? By pivot, I mean running a good distance before doing so, whereas stutterstep is always 1 or 2 steps.

I guess if you had to ask me, I'd do a stutterstep one since the input is exactly the same as Link's stutterstep boomerang (even though no one cares lol), and IMO doing this can help maintain spacing a lot.

But that brings me to a question of my own:

Frankly, my defensive game sucks. My offensive game has improved, and I tend to rarely use sideb anymore (I've developed a liking to spec's style with the SH lasering a lot XD), but my defensive game is terrible. Any tips?

Tip play SFII, III or IV it helps you learn how to be defensive without being a attack wall.

Just jump and do air dodge fastfall, to keep people on their toes.

I think he means shudders stepped because that is really the only use I have for ground over B granted its pretty good.

What do you guys think of dodging with down B, every so often, it seems to work quite well, because its difficult to punish aka you make your punish too obvious or hasty you get smacked by me pressing it a second time.

It also works like a counter sorta a mix between marth's and lucario's, it comes out **** fast like marth so you can punish normally unpunishable stuff, but the second hit is slow and definitely punishable if they mess up, but still I don't know how many marths I have gotten this with when they land after f-airs, and either they A try to hit with over B/f-smash, or jump again both you can beat with down B. now if they just block and dash up block shield, it can be problematic but most read as everyone I have met is really aggressive and for good reason, MK players a few exceptions one being M2K and another being my friend seem to also have this problem, also you can use it if you don't trust a powershield or are worried about a poke.

 

[Blind Fremen]

Is there a way to cancel out of the down B besides just waiting?

Also, is there an easier way of short hopping (NOT tap jump) or is my controller just getting old and unresponsive? I'm having the same trouble short hopping with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named (Metaknight).

 

[FadedImage]

I meant both. Warp digs the stutter step side-bs after a jab, but I took it a step further and included the full "run the **** away and side-b after you're a sizable distance away". It's basically me wanting to show off that I can pivot specials on the ground, lol.

 

[noradseven]

Is there a way to cancel out of the down B besides just waiting?

Also, is there an easier way of short hopping (NOT tap jump) or is my controller just getting old and unresponsive? I'm having the same trouble short hopping with He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named (Metaknight).

You can platform land cancel the easiest way to see this is on battlefield. But without platforms I don't know get hit

Map to jump to X practice shorthopping with falco or fox or something.

 

[ph00tbag]

You can platform land cancel the easiest way to see this is on battlefield. But without platforms I don't know get hit

Map to jump to X practice shorthopping with falco or fox or something.

On FD, you can land cancel if you do it from somewhere between the diamond and the first arrow, although the distance varies depending on the direction you face.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

What do you guys think of dodging with down B, every so often, it seems to work quite well, because its difficult to punish aka you make your punish too obvious or hasty you get smacked by me pressing it a second time.

It's a great technique to use if someone's chasing you while you are landing. An example could be like a DDD chasing me towards the right as im falling right. if im low enough where I cant change my direction, right when he's about to attempt a shield grab or dash grab I do a reverse down b. Remember that during the first frames you are invincible to everything. If they try to chase my down b after use, I usually cancel/buffer it with a double boost jump then FF where im trying to go. People always complain that im really hard to catch when doing things like that.

I meant both. Warp digs the stutter step side-bs after a jab, but I took it a step further and included the full "run the **** away and side-b after you're a sizable distance away". It's basically me wanting to show off that I can pivot specials on the ground, lol.

You mean that he takes like 2 steps back then attempts to hit with the 1st hit? Isnt that punishable?

I try to use the full Pside b since it's less punishable and if unexpected could be considered a mindgame. In my style I tend to do things like dashing back to avoid an attack and doing things like Pdtilt, Pdsmash, Pside b, Pgrab (when I know it's gonna connect), or just dash back in general to see how they react to things for future reference. It's a great safety mechanism IMO. At times it's a better alternative to SHing back, since im not really into spamming SH bairs. (My friends punish the hell outta me when I do that even when spaced right)

I know im probably rambling another great thing I like about ZSS is that she has all these "alternatives" to use in certain situations. Instead of Pside b (<--- It WILL catch on.) when close to an opponent, you could run back and do a SH RAR'd laser, or Pgrab. (if you notice they dont roll or spotdodge a lot or are aggressive) Nothing like versitility.

 

[noradseven]

Super tip: The first hit of over B is safe on most the cast if spaced properly on shield(not power shield), it will push them back into the second hit, the spacing is tight on about 1/3 of the cast and outright impossible on like 1/4, but its **** easy on ROB and DDD, not too hard on snake either.

 

[sasook]

using down b as an attack onstage if probably even worse than using fsmash. even fsmash could hit if you use it right but it's not worth it. the risk is too high for both moves.

O_o really? Is there a reasoning behind it?

(Rest assured, I don't use it onstage, but I'm just curious why it's so punishable/bad)

It depends on what you mean by "defensive." If you mean acting campy then I think ZSS doesnt have what it takes to campy, people can get pass her defenses (*cough* side b *cough*) too easily for that. I think ZSS is more of the evasive defensive type. I just keep moving around dodging all my opponents moves using dash-backs, moving around in the air, and evasive down b's (if they're closing in and you have no other option) until I see an opening while still using lasers and a few side b's.

Well, I guess whenever the opponent is pressuring me, I have a hard time either countering or getting to a safe location to reset my spacing. Should I be using sidebs for this? Because right now I rarely use sideb at all, mostly due to the fact that I'm not really sure how to incorporate that move properly without depending on it.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

I dont know If I fully understand what you are saying, could you perhaps provide a scenario?

I think you mean if you are being cornered near the edge? if so then you should make it your business not to get in that situation in the first place.

instead of trying to spam side b's and SH bairs to stop a zoning opponent just keep moving around him. if someone like a snake somehow got me toward the edge I just...move to the other side. He's not gonna catch you if you move right, ZSS is a very evasive character, just think: MEXICAN JUMPING BEAN.

 

[sasook]

lol @ Mexican jumping bean.

Hmm.....not really towards the ledge. You ever get that scenario where your opponent just suddenly gets on a roll, and no matter what you do, they seem to counter it? And then it ends when your damage is too high for you to be hit more than once at a time? That's kinda what I mean.

My friends tell me that my offensive game is good - that is, my spacing with aerials and comboability and aggressiveness. But they say that when I'm the one retreating, for whatever reason, I perform poorly. I always seem to not know what to do, or rather, not know what is the proper thing to do.

I'll try to get some vids up, because it's difficult to explain.

 

[Popertop]

I dont know If I fully understand what you are saying, could you perhaps provide a scenario?

I think you mean if you are being cornered near the edge? if so then you should make it your business not to get in that situation in the first place.

instead of trying to spam side b's and SH bairs to stop a zoning opponent just keep moving around him. if someone like a snake somehow got me toward the edge I just...move to the other side. He's not gonna catch you if you move right, ZSS is a very evasive character, just think: MEXICAN JUMPING BEAN.

you gotta think mexiCAN, not mexiCAN'T.

bee positive

 

[noradseven]

lol @ Mexican jumping bean.

Hmm.....not really towards the ledge. You ever get that scenario where your opponent just suddenly gets on a roll, and no matter what you do, they seem to counter it? And then it ends when your damage is too high for you to be hit more than once at a time? That's kinda what I mean.

My friends tell me that my offensive game is good - that is, my spacing with aerials and comboability and aggressiveness. But they say that when I'm the one retreating, for whatever reason, I perform poorly. I always seem to not know what to do, or rather, not know what is the proper thing to do.

I'll try to get some vids up, because it's difficult to explain.

I know exactly what you are talking about for me this is the hardest part of ZSS game learning how to escape pressure, and more importantly not get in it.

Here are some key moves u-tilt comes out in a few frames and more importantly hits behind you in like a few frames, danger on block.

jab comes out in 1 frame 1 frame, here that 1. While finishing the combo sucks there is nothing stopping a jab jab crouch cancel shorthop air dodge, down B grab, insert move of choice.

d-tilt great range safe on block *normally

Shorthop air dodge no really this rules.

forward shorthop u-air/f-air, this stops alot of pressure sometimes jumping forward messes up a character especially one based around timing/spacing.

Do that scuttle step back into over B at tip of first hit range, no really this can be awesome, but it takes some time to learn and is risky and should be rarely used.

Shield, more shield, some power shield. Also note that you can shield low as well as high(default) for ZSS this is a much better idea usually.

Melee time side step is still great against shots with high recovery time, follow up with d-smash/d-tilt punish.

The most important thing to do though is regain control, or reset to neutral, and don't forget because some of ZSS's moves come out really fast you can even sometimes be intentially hit by fireballs, Falco laser, and just plan and buffer your attack during the hit stun for instant surprise.

 

[cba]

You guys own....

 

[jibbyjaont]

Tip play SFII, III or IV it helps you learn how to be defensive without being a attack wall.

Do you play SFIV? Which console? I'm still waiting on Snakeee because I really want to play him haha.