Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda's Down B is really the key to winning this match up

considering we give up range and kill power... I wouldn't stay sheik. maybe if you're failing hardcore with zelda, but sheik shouldn't go this matchup alone.

 

[Kataefi]

And This is why you fail with Zelda.

There is no disrespect to anyone in this thread please. Snakeee was bringing up a point that down b could be a solution if you are struggling as Zelda.

Maybe the combo of Sheik > Zelda works well? Doesn't Tink escape Ftilt chains easily? (I know he can hold a bomb blow himself and sheik up).

I know this is uphill battle for Zelda with Tink. To me, he seems like a more moveable Samus. The only problem for him is getting the kill. What are his viable kill moves?

 

[Dark_Septor]

There is no disrespect to anyone in this thread please. Snakeee was bringing up a point that down b could be a solution if you are struggling as Zelda.

I was kidding wit Snakee. It was not serious, and for that you infracted me? It was not even that serious, I seen worst and people don't get points for it. You are really taking that mod job of yours too serious and going way over the line. God damm this site.....

And cause of that point, instead of being baneed for 2 days, I am being banned for nearly 2 weeks.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Upsmash and bair are pretty normal for him (though Bair will be heavliy decayed)

Actually, toonie's Uair lingers so long it ***** zelda's airdodge which makes it actually a bit of a kill move in this matchup.

as for escaping tilt lock... well he's really too slow a faller to tiltlock anyway. His bombs aren't a big helper there since he can't pull them out during a tilt.. it's more that sheik just can't hold him there.

 

[Snakeee]

I was just messing in the first place. The match up is almost definitely worse for Zelda than it is for Sheik, but actually TL may have the advantage vs Sheik as well. I say use both like Kataefi said...please remove Dark's infraction if possible lol

 

[Dark_Septor]

I was just messing in the first place. The match up is almost definitely worse for Zelda than it is for Sheik, but actually TL may have the advantage vs Sheik as well. I say use both like Kataefi said...please remove Dark's infraction if possible lol

Like seriously, it was nothing. a small simple Joke, I know snakee IRL and we are cool. People joke like this ALL the time in smashboards, and all kinds of threads too. So might as well dish out points to the whole site. Once in a blue people laugh it up and w/e, nothing serious. These guys will use any lil thing to get out points.

 

[Brinzy]

I've never found this match-up particularly troublesome. I feel that it is even, but lolnobody here.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i don't fight Toonie enough, so im just reading along

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

This one's pretty clear, 60:40 TL I would say. The only thing Zelda has going for her is she's hard to combo, so she can exploit the lag on TL's moves. Other than that, projectiles are annoying, Zair is annoying, disjoints are annoying, air game is annoying... Jeez, he's like Zelda's 3-year-old son that won't stop moving or talking or swinging his sword or throwing his **** or ANYTHING.

I always go Kirby for this matchup, or DK if I can get a good stage. DK smooshes anything that gets too annoying, and Kirby's cute enough to distract the little brat. -_-

 

[RoyalBlood]

I've never found this match-up particularly troublesome. I feel that it is even, but lolnobody here.

I do, but we know what will happen if we discuss it given the nature of the ego.

Pictochat is nice here :D I think, Pirate Ship could be another option

 

[JigglyZelda003]

, Pirate Ship could be another option

do you liek watercamping?

 

[TLMSheikant]

Yep sheik is a lot better against tink. Shes harder to camp against and has those annoying needles too to fight back >_>. To whoever asked: our most used kill moves are usmash and upair. Fair is too slow >_> and fsmash is easily DI'd. Back air is used too much to be considered a kill move same with nair. Utilt is an awesome finisher too though it kills at later percents.

 

[RoyalBlood]

do you liek watercamping?

Zelda's foots do :D

TL Down Smash can cause some awkward situations ;__;

If he gets too close, run D:

 

[adumbrodeus]

This one's pretty clear, 60:40 TL I would say. The only thing Zelda has going for her is she's hard to combo, so she can exploit the lag on TL's moves. Other than that, projectiles are annoying, Zair is annoying, disjoints are annoying, air game is annoying... Jeez, he's like Zelda's 3-year-old son that won't stop moving or talking or swinging his sword or throwing his **** or ANYTHING.

I always go Kirby for this matchup, or DK if I can get a good stage. DK smooshes anything that gets too annoying, and Kirby's cute enough to distract the little brat. -_-

Don't forget, it's like a 80-20 Sheik, so switch ftw!


In melee... (with closest equivilents obviously)


Anyway, Zelda/Sheik, Sheik has the needles which help signifigantly with the projectile problem, and also she's a ton faster, and TL isn't exactly difficult to gimp. Vanish is also a nice kill move.

Tlink on the other hand has zair and camps very nicely.


It seems like Sheik/Tlink alone is about an even match-up, what do you guys think?


And even though Zelda is disadvantaged, she can add to the match-up, the question is, does she add enough push this up to be a 55-45 for Zelda/Sheik (probably Sheik to Zelda if TLink gets to the ackward percents)?

 

[MrEh]

Just go MK and wreck the little camper. lol

 

[Canvasofgrey]

*Kicks Mr. Eh*

Stupid troll, go back to the horde side!!! D<

Yeah, Sheik is better than Zelda in this match-up, so switch to her and you'll be good. If you're really itchy to play Zelda, then you can't outcamp TL, so it kind of forces you to apporach or keep mid-distance. In my opinion, Mid distance is where you want to be with TL since I think his OoS options are pretty good, and TL doesn't outrange Zelda except in the air I think.

60:40 TL favor

50:50 Even with Sheik/TL

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If you're really itchy to play Zelda, then you can't outcamp TL, so it kind of forces you to apporach or keep mid-distance. In my opinion, Mid distance is where you want to be with TL...

Well, it´s not like there´s even a choice. Zelda just really can´t approach most of the cast reliably, let alone those who excel at camping. It also would be extremely weird for Zelda player to try to get at the close distance for any other reason that to finish the opponent of.

 

[Darkmusician]

MrEh has a point. Any match up that is easier with Sheik you might as well go MK if you're not gonna go Zelda.

And since mostly everyone is saying just use Sheik I guess I'll give what little input I have about the Zelda side.

Bait Toon Link to over extend with his dair. Most TL players on auto pilot will spam it a lot and you get a free hit or grab. This works well if you pretend that you're going to go after him with an up air but pull back and either air dodge or dodge it altogether.

When TL is recovering, time your edge hog such that his up b will go through you and the ledge and above you. There is lag when he takes that last swing and he kinda floats for a split second. If you're quick enough I suggest you jump off the ledge and up air him. Or I suppose if he's not in kill range yet you can do something else. But that will leave him wide open to something.

Most Toon Links are extremely hasty. Because he has the luxury of throwing out attacks over and over take advantage of this by watching how TL spaces. If you are patient and hold your shield chance are you might get some free hits/grabs out of shield.

But yeah usually I prefer to go MK and just gimp his recovery off stage with dairs and fairs since he has very little horizontal on his recovery. Just get him out far enough without his jump and he's gone. Some TLs like to throw stuff at you while recovering. Condition them and punish them for it with either character.

 

[Ochobobo]

If we're talking about using Sheik then we might as well go all the way and use Meta Knight of course, lol

 

[MrEh]

If you do insist on using Zelda...

LEARN TO WALK AND SHIELD. Walk, shield, repeat. Don't give him room to camp.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I would not go pirate ship.

his dair suddenly isn't a suicide... nice

 

[MrEh]

Just keep it to neutrals. Seriously, there's no good counterpick here except Mansion. And that's probably banned.

 

[Kataefi]

Frigate would work well. The first layout goes against his camping somewhat, and of course there's that edge which always forces a bad recovery (and because his one goes predominantly upwards it can be punished somewhat easily). Dsmash from the edge sets this up okay.

The stage flip makes him more conscious of his spacing, so he might halt camping for a bit until the stage repositions itself - making a good time to potentially get closer to him. And the second stage transformation isn't all too bad at all.

 

[Brinzy]

Is PS1 bad for Zelda or something? I think this stage works to limit his spam a bit.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

other than lol ledges i don't think PS1 is bad for her, if not BF its my other neutral for her

 

[sniperworm]

Just keep it to neutrals. Seriously, there's no good counterpick here except Mansion. And that's probably banned.

I maintain that I'd take TL to Castle Siege for the reasons I stated earlier. Of course, I have no actual experience versus Toon Link at Castle Siege, but that's generally the case with all my theoretical counterpicks that I use in tournaments and they seem to work out pretty well for me (so I'll leave it up to ya'll if you want to take my advice or not).

Of course if Mansion was still legal in Hawaii I'd take everyone there, lol.

 

[Darkmusician]

Trying to theorize about stages should not be the focus of dealing with Toon Link. The focus should be on out playing and outhinking him instead of relying on some terrain advantage. Focus on neutrals because in tournament sets the first stage is always on a nuetral and I cannot stress how important it is to get the first win on a neutral regardless of the match up.

 

[sniperworm]

Trying to theorize about stages should not be the focus of dealing with Toon Link. The focus should be on out playing and outhinking him instead of relying on some terrain advantage.

This is so very true.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

... The focus should be on out playing and outhinking him ...

yes, well, as true as that is, it's hardly something you can discuss. You can merely say "outplay and outthink your foe" but, in the end, you haven't really said anything we don't already know.

More specific tactics for dealing with matchup specific problems, ah, that's where the conversation should be focused.

 

[Darkmusician]

yes, well, as true as that is, it's hardly something you can discuss. You can merely say "outplay and outthink your foe" but, in the end, you haven't really said anything we don't already know.

More specific tactics for dealing with matchup specific problems, ah, that's where the conversation should be focused.

Which is why I listed several specific points earlier. And if everyone really "already knew" how to out think and out play people, then there wouldn't be half as much useless theory craft in the first place.

The fact remains that playing smart is the best solution to the majority of Zelda's match up problems and not stages or some flashy tech cancel w/e. Stages and techs are just the tip of ice berg. And like I said I listed several specific examples on ways to out smart and get an advantage on Toon Link. And they are not theory. They are legitimate tactics that are worth remembering.

So stop stop saying that I'm not being specific or that I'm bringing up something that isn't discussable. Because I have and it is.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

You guys need to take a chill pill.

Stage discussion is a viable part of the discussion, but in terms of match-up, you rely strictly on a suppose neutral playing field where there is no real stage advantage. That's what makes the point of the match-up.

However, Stage discussion is very important too, while it's not part of the match-ups, it's still necessary to know since you're going to lose sooner or later, so picking the right counterstage is the remedy for that. While winning the first match is important, you also have to counter it since the opponent will most likely secure a a win on the 2nd round with a counterpick. Always be perpared in that case.

 

[Brinzy]

Ok, since stage discussion is apparently not as important as "playing smart", then let's just play smart and beat everyone and we should be perfectly fine, right?

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

While the two characters are of course the most important parts of a matchup discussion, a proper counterpick can really change fundamental elements of the matchup. The stage discussion thread (coming soon, guys! ^ ^)is a better place for general stage discussion, but matchup-specific stage discussion should not be excluded from a matchup discussion.

 

[Smith]

I'd honestly say the match is 60:40 Toon Link's favor. We can out camp you, space your sweetspot aerials with zair. Though you have power and were light, Your light too.


Just off the top of my head.

 

[Darkmusician]

Ok, since stage discussion is apparently not as important as "playing smart", then let's just play smart and beat everyone and we should be perfectly fine, right?

I don't particularly care if you take my advice or not, but I speak from experience, trial and error. I wouldn't say anything unless I felt that it's something that needs to be heard and I always try to be as specific and as realistic as possible. I've talked with SniperWorm about counter picks and they make a huge difference especially when chosen based on the opponents playstyle as well as their characters. It's good for getting momentum in the set or regaining it if you need to. And of course it is also good for making use of the hazards, movements and terrain to fluster your opponent. I myself was counterpicked at SBHMX and it almost took me out of my game. So I am not discrediting the power of counters. I agree that counters are important and make up a big deal of our meta game, but at the core of everything it's how you think, react and adapt that will get you through tournaments.

Instead of just throwing out random stage suggestions I suggest that we go one stage at a time and discuss it in detail so that the thinking is more organized. But please do not underestimate the power of trapping, conditioning and reading.

You don't have to listen to what I have to say, but don't waste space with sarcastic remarks.

 

[-Tempest-]

Zelda v. Toon Link:

Zelda's got the edge in kill power. She's a walking weapon. However, Toon Link's agility allows him to maneuver around them. He can outspace with Zair and projectile spam until he has to come in for the kill. Usmash, Uair, and Fair are fairly dependable kill moves, but to utilize them, he has to enter Zelda's space. Zelda's no slouch in damage racking, and her plethora of kill moves means that she will typically always have a fresh kill. Toon has setups into his killmoves, but I don't know how well they work on Zelda, due to her floaty-ness.

 

[Darkmusician]

Yeah Toon Link is good at moving in and out with disjointed hitboxes. You have to bait Toon Link into over extending. Again baiting him into using dair is a good choice since most ToonLinks find it hard to not go for.

The zair can be seen coming most of the time if you're patient enough. Don't be fooled into over extending yourself. Toon Link can jump at you and pull back before using the zair.

 

[-Tempest-]

Actually, baiting a Dair is a lot harder than it looks. Toons have developed several setups for spikes and won't go for it without setting them up.

 

[Darkmusician]

Actually, baiting a Dair is a lot harder than it looks. Toons have developed several setups for spikes and won't go for it without setting them up.

It's true that at higher levels of play TL won't spam the dair at every chance. Baiting the dair is more player specific. You can just take that for what it's worth. It's definitely a move to punish if you can get it wiff though.

 

[-Tempest-]

It's true that at higher levels of play TL won't spam the dair at every chance. Baiting the dair is more player specific. You can just take that for what it's worth. It's definitely a move to punish if you can get it wiff though.

Definitely. If a Toon whiffs a Dair, it won't end well for them.