Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[JigglyZelda003]

is it possible to DI out of the first hit of his Fsmash and Nayrus?

 

[Brinzy]

I think so. If he swings too fast, the second attack will flat out miss. If he swings too slow, well obviously he's swinging too slow. You should be able to DI enough to kick in that frame 5 Nayru's. I've done it quite a few times myself... but I don't know if my opponent was "doing it right."

 

[-Tempest-]

Yeah. Due to Zelda's floatiness, it's incredibly easy for her to DI out of his Fsmash and punish it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah. I really have to be caught sleeping to be hit by the second hit of his Fsmash.

 

[BRLNK88]

Defensive Zeldas can really make life hell for Tink.
zair is useful, but landing bairs can be tough with Zelda's disjointed smashes.
And with his less than impressive air speed, he can get ***** from a distance by Din's Fire.
The key for Tink is to get Zelda in the air, which is exactly what can make the match-up so difficult.
On the other hand, Zelda is both light and tall, meaning if Tink presses his advantages, he can both string hits together more easily, and get more low percentage kills.

 

[MrEh]

Defensive Zeldas can really make life hell for Tink.
zair is useful, but landing bairs can be tough with Zelda's disjointed smashes.
And with his less than impressive air speed, he can get ***** from a distance by Din's Fire.
The key for Tink is to get Zelda in the air, which is exactly what can make the match-up so difficult.
On the other hand, Zelda is both light and tall, meaning if Tink presses his advantages, he can both string hits together more easily, and get more low percentage kills.

Defensive Zelda is easy.

Just start spamming projectiles. Defense gone.

 

[-Tempest-]

I have to agree with MrEh. Zelda's gotta close in and stay on Toon Link if she wants to win. He can outspace her at mid range with his projectiles and still be safely outside retaliation range.

 

[MrEh]

The thing about Zelda's defense game is that it's pretty bad.

Now I know someone is going to say "LOL ZELDA'S DEFENSE IS GOOD!" That's wrong. Zelda's defense game is good compared to her other attributes, but it's still bad.

Generally, all you have to do is throw out Dins, Fsmash a lot, and Dsmash when you get pressured. If that's the only defense that she has, then that still sucks.


Zelda can't get defensive against any character that outcamps her. Which is pretty much everyone with a projectile. When Zelda is outcamped, her defensive game is moot. As for Toon Link, she has no answer to his spam. She HAS TO APPROACH.

 

[sniperworm]

Zelda can't get defensive against any character that outcamps her. Which is pretty much everyone with a projectile. When Zelda is outcamped, her defensive game is moot. As for Toon Link, she has no answer to his spam. She HAS TO APPROACH.

LIES! Zelda CAN play defensive against people that outcamp her and she doesn't HAVE to approach. She'll just lose after 8 minutes because she'll be at 200% and the opponent will be at 30%...

I honestly feel that Zelda could attempt to camp against TL on some of the larger stages, but in general it's not wise at all.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The thing about Zelda's defense game is that it's pretty bad.

Now I know someone is going to say "LOL ZELDA'S DEFENSE IS GOOD!" That's wrong. Zelda's defense game is good compared to her other attributes, but it's still bad.

Generally, all you have to do is throw out Dins, Fsmash a lot, and Dsmash when you get pressured. If that's the only defense that she has, then that still sucks.


Zelda can't get defensive against any character that outcamps her. Which is pretty much everyone with a projectile. When Zelda is outcamped, her defensive game is moot. As for Toon Link, she has no answer to his spam. She HAS TO APPROACH.

How about spacing close enough that you can't get peppered by projectiles?

Marth technically has the same issue, but he's probably got the best defensive game in the entire game, because for most characters he can get into a blind spot and melee camp, and the opponent is forced to react.

Zelda doesn't really have safe pokes, but she can just stick around and space, so if she's even slightly ahead she becomes very difficult to approach.

Depends on the match-up obviously.

 

[sniperworm]

How about spacing close enough that you can't get peppered by projectiles?

Marth technically has the same issue, but he's probably got the best defensive game in the entire game, because for most characters he can get into a blind spot and melee camp, and the opponent is forced to react.

Zelda doesn't really have safe pokes, but she can just stick around and space, so if she's even slightly ahead she becomes very difficult to approach.

Depends on the match-up obviously.

The difference is that Marth is fast and has a sword. The speed allows him to reach and maintain that distance for extended periods of time if necessary. The sword gives him the safety he needs while spacing. He also swings in fairly large arcs which provide large hitboxes that allow him to protect himself at almost all angles, in all positions. He can also attack and cancel out many projectiles if someone is brave enough to use them at such a range. His OoS options are quick and have great reach which allows him to punish opposing spacing options that might carry greater range than his own.

Zelda simply doesn't move fast enough on the ground to maintain the optimal distance. Her defensive, spacing move (Fsmash) has enough ending lag to be punished on block/miss. While Zelda's not slow in the air, she loses her high priority, long lasting hitboxes, and inherits huge blind spots. She also lacks the massive disjointedness that a weapon provides (even on the ground). The only move in her entire arsenal that can attempt to mirror the disjoint of a sword is the Fsmash. However, it's slow, poor when trading hits (except the last one), and actually doesn't have much true disjointed range until the ending burst. Zelda's ability to punish opposing spacing options is also extremely limited because her OoS options either lack range or speed.

I'm not saying that your idea is bad (since that's generally how Zelda would be played against someone who can outcamp her). I'm just pointing out that she's greatly inferior to Marth in this aspect (aka she's not that good defensively).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda can't get defensive against any character that outcamps her. Which is pretty much everyone with a projectile. When Zelda is outcamped, her defensive game is moot. As for Toon Link, she has no answer to his spam. She HAS TO APPROACH.

that doesn't make her defensive game BAD. that means that she can't use it against everyone, but if you CAN'T outcamp her then her defensive game is probably going to be enough.

By this logic ANYONE who can't outcamp 75% of the cast has a bad defensive game.

 

[-Tempest-]

Playing defensive against Toon Link isn't the wisest course of action. Limiting his range is the key. Once you get up close, Toon doesn't do so hot, even with his disjointed hitboxes. A lot of his ground arsenal is slow and can be overtaken by Zelda, forcing him to go airborne (and Zelda is good as an anti-air character, right?) or run away.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda does tend to beat toonie up close by boasting more range and quicker attacks at a given range than toonie (I don't think he has anything that can compete with the speed of her Dsmash)

Getting and staying in that range, however, isn't an easy task

 

[-Tempest-]

Getting there: hard.
Staying there: not all that bad.

Toon has very few close range options, none of which are safe.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Getting there: hard.
Staying there: not all that bad.

Toon has very few close range options, none of which are safe.

not so much that think can shake us off... more that zelda tends to knock her foes too far away so that she can't keep spacing.

 

[-Tempest-]

Ah, I understand now. Alright, I'll concede that one.

 

[MrEh]

LIES! Zelda CAN play defensive against people that outcamp her and she doesn't HAVE to approach. She'll just lose after 8 minutes because she'll be at 200% and the opponent will be at 30%..

I lol'ed. ^^

that doesn't make her defensive game BAD.

Her defensive game is bad. Snake has a good defensive game. MK has a good defensive game. Zelda's defensive game is mediocre.

The only reason why a lot of players think it's good is because it's Zelda's best attribute. Too bad her other attributes are just plain bad.

that means that she can't use it against everyone, but if you CAN'T outcamp her then her defensive game is probably going to be enough.

The problem with that is that the character's who can't outcamp Zelda are usually bad to begin with.

By this logic ANYONE who can't outcamp 75% of the cast has a bad defensive game.

No. Because a lot of character's that get outcamped can approach. Marth can get camped by everyone with a projectile, but like SniperWorm said, Marth can approach.

Zelda cannot. She is forced to approach, and with her approach options being so bad, it still puts her in a bad position.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zelda's defensive game is mediocre.
The only reason why a lot of players think it's good is because it's Zelda's best attribute. Too bad her other attributes are just plain bad.

that and Usmash also says bite me to practically every aerial as well.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Though, a lot of the defensive/approaching gameplay of the character is determined by the player's skill, since mind-games, spacing, and all that are the most important factor for those. Judging defensive game and approaching game on pure character aspects is rather shallow.

 

[MrEh]

Though, a lot of the defensive/approaching gameplay of the character is determined by the player's skill

Of course. Player skill.

Mindgames and such should never be factored into matchup discussions, since they are based upon the individual player, and not their character.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Of course. Player skill.

Mindgames and such should never be factored into matchup discussions, since they are based upon the individual player, and not their character.

unless, of course, you're character is incapable of mindgames. Then it should be noted that you can't even attempt to use them.

But I'm at a loss for a single character so shallow.

 

[MrEh]

unless, of course, you're character is incapable of mindgames. Then it should be noted that you can't even attempt to use them.

But I'm at a loss for a single character so shallow.

Every character is capable of utilizing mindgames, but the thing is that some characters are better suited for it then others. In general, the more options you have, the more potential you have to trick your opponent in such a way.

It doesn't matter though. Mindgames are based on player ability, and should not even be mentioned in matchup discussions.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Every character is capable of utilizing mindgames, but the thing is that some characters are better suited for it then others. In general, the more options you have, the more potential you have to trick your opponent in such a way.

It doesn't matter though. Mindgames are based on player ability, and should not even be mentioned in matchup discussions.

I don't know if I'd say they have NO place.

mindgames are the only reason zelda doesn't **** sonic: she can stop ANY approach of his, but he has so many options that he can trick her into predicting the wrong approach. It's not like the zelda will forevermore be tricked by sonic, but she will be from time to time.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

But I'm at a loss for a single character so shallow.

"I am **** w/o work"


but shouldn't we move back to the matchup now or move on?

 

[adumbrodeus]

The difference is that Marth is fast and has a sword. The speed allows him to reach and maintain that distance for extended periods of time if necessary. The sword gives him the safety he needs while spacing. He also swings in fairly large arcs which provide large hitboxes that allow him to protect himself at almost all angles, in all positions. He can also attack and cancel out many projectiles if someone is brave enough to use them at such a range. His OoS options are quick and have great reach which allows him to punish opposing spacing options that might carry greater range than his own.

Zelda simply doesn't move fast enough on the ground to maintain the optimal distance. Her defensive, spacing move (Fsmash) has enough ending lag to be punished on block/miss. While Zelda's not slow in the air, she loses her high priority, long lasting hitboxes, and inherits huge blind spots. She also lacks the massive disjointedness that a weapon provides (even on the ground). The only move in her entire arsenal that can attempt to mirror the disjoint of a sword is the Fsmash. However, it's slow, poor when trading hits (except the last one), and actually doesn't have much true disjointed range until the ending burst. Zelda's ability to punish opposing spacing options is also extremely limited because her OoS options either lack range or speed.

I'm not saying that your idea is bad (since that's generally how Zelda would be played against someone who can outcamp her). I'm just pointing out that she's greatly inferior to Marth in this aspect (aka she's not that good defensively).

Of course, I know that Marth is better at it, check out the little icon on the bottom. I know a great deal about both characters.


Marth was merely an illustration of the approach that Zelda has to take.


But that doesn't mean that Zelda isn't good at it. Sure she's not a "I've got 60-40s against most of the cast" defensive game, but she's still pretty good at it, and can definitely make approaching a chore if she's ahead.

Though again, one of the major differences between her and Marth is that Marth can force a reaction.

No. Because a lot of character's that get outcamped can approach. Marth can get camped by everyone with a projectile, but like SniperWorm said, Marth can approach.

Zelda cannot. She is forced to approach, and with her approach options being so bad, it still puts her in a bad position.

He didn't say anything about approaching AT ALL, neither did I. We were talking about Marth's DEFENSIVE GAME, not his offensive game (he does have a good rushdown game, but that's besides the point).


See, this is illustrative of a fundamental disconnect, there's not just projectile spacing versus melee range, most projectiles have BLIND SPOTS where they become unsafe, and usually characters with projectiles don't have safe melee attacks/grabs that cover their entire blind spot.


Marth can rushdown, but he's generally far better at taking that total blind spot and exploiting it, generally by camping at the tip of his melee range where he's completely safe. This causes shield pressure and forces a reaction. Enter Marth's amazing defensive game.


Zelda doesn't really have safe pokes (well, f-smash, but that's match-up dependent), but by simply being ahead, she can force an approach and react like Marth. Also, depending on the match-up, Din's fire can sometime force an approach.


So yea, there's a definite difference between "approaching" which means you're both in attack range, and "spacing so projectiles or unless" which is self-explanatory, and "poking" which is basically melee projectile camping.

edit:

It doesn't matter though. Mindgames are based on player ability, and should not even be mentioned in matchup discussions.

So, you're telling me that if you have to make a one pixel spacing mistake in order to make your move punishable versus a spacing mistake equivalent to about the length of the hitbox of Ganon's warlock punch, it's totally player ability and doesn't have an effect on the match-up? The fact that it takes a great deal more of a mistake to be hit by an Ike F-smash then to be grabbed by DDD as DK is irrelevant to the match-up?

I'm sorry, but no, different characters have different mindgames potential which magnify the standing average mindgames victories that happen on both sides of a match at the top of the metagame and their degrees.

This effect on match-ups is quantifiable and I previously discussed a frame-work for it in tactical.

The fact that people ignored mindgames potential for long is part of the disconnect between what the match-ups are technically and tournament results, and as I always say, if on paper is different then in fact, get a better paper.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Of course. Player skill.

Mindgames and such should never be factored into matchup discussions, since they are based upon the individual player, and not their character.

Well, I mean, I'm not talking about match-up. I'm just talking about the whole defensive/approaching topic, which shouldn't really be discussed in match-ups in the first place except for some characters who base themselves around being a fortress or whatever.

 

[Kataefi]

I'm going to ask you all kindly to get back on topic of this thread and start coming up with summaries to the Zelda vs Toon Link matchup.

We can argue all this after we've completed our matchup discussions so we can determine a new framework or whatever for when we do rediscussions. Either that or if the need desperately arises, you can take this to PMs.

If this topic continues to derail into general matchup discussions (which should be discussed in tactical) rather than Zelda specific, then I'm going to be handing out warnings.

Zelda vs Toon Link

- He can camp hard... but how will get the final blow on her?
- Is there a range in which din's can possibly fight back against the spam? I know there's a range where it can sometimes explode during the lag of the opponent's projectiles.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm going to ask you all kindly to get back on topic of this thread and start coming up with summaries to the Zelda vs Toon Link matchup.

We can argue all this after we've completed our matchup discussions so we can determine a new framework or whatever for when we do rediscussions. Either that or if the need desperately arises, you can take this to PMs.

If this topic continues to derail into general matchup discussions (which should be discussed in tactical) rather than Zelda specific, then I'm going to be handing out warnings.

Zelda vs Toon Link

- He can camp hard... but how will get the final blow on her?
- Is there a range in which din's can possibly fight back against the spam? I know there's a range where it can sometimes explode during the lag of the opponent's projectiles.

I've never actually seen agood toon link "camp"

per se.

I see them all use projectiles strategically to poke, create openings, disrupt or interrupt an offense.

 

[Kataefi]

How would you deal with each individual item from his camp game btw? I was thinking about this and thought, instead of thinking of his camp game as a whole, it might be easier to deconstruct and react differently depending on what he pulls out.

For example I'm thinking bombs can be caught with SHAD.... and the boomerang -- could we possibly Nayru's its return to toon link... I havn't tested this myself, but would it make it Zelda's boomerang as it zones in on Toon Link.

The arrows IMO are easy to dodge but... he can autocancel them I believe. As for Zair, is it possible for Zelda to duck under SH ones?

 

[GodAtHand]

For example I'm thinking bombs can be caught with SHAD.... and the boomerang -- could we possibly Nayru's its return to toon link... I havn't tested this myself, but would it make it Zelda's boomerang as it zones in on Toon Link.

The arrows IMO are easy to dodge but... he can autocancel them I believe. As for Zair, is it possible for Zelda to duck under SH ones?

In all honesty I HAVE camped a good toon Link before. If you can time your jumps to dodge two of his projectiles and get hit by the third while aiming a Din's you will do more damage to him than him to you. You just have to learn his pattern, then make sure you know when its changed. Well.. maybe that wasn't outcamping but it made him think more about spamming projectile which created some good openings.

I don't recommend Nayru's on the arrows because they usually disappear before they get back to him... The best projectile to Nayru's is the boomerang.

Bombs can be caught of course but the chances aren't that great... but if you do, it should provide you with a glide toss to close the distance between you two.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

and the boomerang -- could we possibly Nayru's its return to toon link... I havn't tested this myself, but would it make it Zelda's boomerang as it zones in on Toon Link.

I´m not 100 % sure about this, but I think NL works on returning boomerang. It could be pretty dangerous move to pull of though since the cooldown is so tremendous and returning boomerang does very little damage.

And in my experience the arrows are actually pretty hard/annoying... they can be used in approach with autocanceled shorthops and stop Zelda´s smash based defence game very efficiently.

Spoiler

Edit: GodAtHand has 666 posts... scary...

 

[sniperworm]

How would you deal with each individual item from his camp game btw? I was thinking about this and thought, instead of thinking of his camp game as a whole, it might be easier to deconstruct and react differently depending on what he pulls out.

For example I'm thinking bombs can be caught with SHAD.... and the boomerang -- could we possibly Nayru's its return to toon link... I havn't tested this myself, but would it make it Zelda's boomerang as it zones in on Toon Link.

The arrows IMO are easy to dodge but... he can autocancel them I believe. As for Zair, is it possible for Zelda to duck under SH ones?

Bombs can be caught just like any other item. From my experience though, they usually throw them so they hit the ground near your feet so you can't reflect/catch them.

We should be able to reflect the boomerang on the return trip. Perhaps you're suggesting doing an early Naryu's and allowing the end of the reflecting frames to reflect the boomerang? I would also imagine that we could Dtilt the boomerang to cancel it out.

Arrows actually aren't too bad because they can give you opportunities to approach alongside a Din's Fire (just Din's glide into an arrow while angling the Din's Fire) if you so choose. It's difficult for him to use arrows to approach because they always have lag after he shoots one (so you could possibly dash attack under SH ones and quickdraw arrows have post lag so he can't really follow them up unless he's really close). That being said, his arrows are by far the most common projectile and will most likely build the majority of the damage against us.

Because he can Zair from an airdodge, it's really difficult to safely hit TL. Zair is also his best actual approach since it cancels when he lands.

As far as TL getting the kill, I think that's where they make mistakes really. I feel that TL should never really stop with the "camping" since he'll build up a damage advantage. He can then just wait out the clock (still throwing stuff at us obviously) until we make a mistake trying to approach and then kill us. When they try to come in and force a kill is when they start to get beat up.

 

[MrEh]

Wall of text

M'kay.

- He can camp hard... but how will get the final blow on her?

Once Zelda get's to obscenely high percents, a simple Usmash would do it. If you wiff anything, then you're going to get "EEH YAH!" smacked.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Nayru's Love & Shield while running towards him gets them discouraged.

If he's approaching with arrows chances are that he'll get him by them before he does another move. (Nayru's Love)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I burn most of his projectiles with Din's personally.

 

[FIERCE]

Not really a big tip but I find that when you shield Toon Link's b-air you can retaliate with an U-Tilt out of sheild which will pretty much always connect & send him flying. Since I find the U-tilt difficult to utilize in normal play (unless after a d-tilt) this matchup is the one where I abuse it the most. (& din's fire on his projectiles is nice as well)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If you think you can get into tink's mind, I find I like it when he's right above me (unless he's holding a bomb)

because I can normally land a uair or at least a Usmash.

 

[_clinton]

Hey...Zelda mains...please take your shiny gold triangle piece and put it to use in this thread dealing with a character that is pretty much canonwise a "god" that has bed wetting issues and has the nickname stubby legs...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229697

The idea of this thread is to take + things you may have on Ness and what Ness may do to try and get around them...it isn't a match up thread because I say it isn't...but whatever...treat it as you want...

 

[RoyalBlood]

So ratio? Stages? Move on?

We should keep the discussion going or finish already.