Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[NinjaLink]

I aint goin that far unless its a major. Otherwise ur buying my tickets.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Go fight DMG and come back and say Zelda has an advantage , he will rock your world big time.

if he's that good. I'm sure he will. I'm sure an equally good captain falcon would rock my world as well... but does that mean anything? not really.

aside from experience with warios telling me zelda has the advantage, I can't think of any reason she WOULDN'T have the advantage.

once we're done with Wario, BTW, let's do Luigi. he's the only charcter left who I think might have an advantage on zelda.

 

[Kataefi]

Luigi? Advantage? USmash is the bane of him! I always thought she had a solid advantage on him. Oh well we'll save it for later

 

[DMG]

Go fight DMG and come back and say Zelda has an advantage , he will rock your world big time.

Don't go around saying that.... ever again. I don't want meatriders near me period. Saying I am good is one thing, but ugh.

But I've heard DMG is amazing - is this a testament to his skill or Wario's? If he were to use Zelda equally as good how would the matchup play?

I would be down with 50:50 - but I think Zelda has the priority to actually stop the majority of his approaches, and she may eventually get a grab release in there, so at best in the matchup it could be 55:45 Zelda

It's a testament to my skill probably, I dunno Zelda is not my type of character.

I think ur meatridin a bit too much :-\


Sorry that theres not many good zeldas and i dont recall any being in texas that i kno of.

Yes he is/was, I hate it. I don't mind talking to people or getting asked questions, but I hate it when someone just drops my name and says "DMG is OMFG awesome so and so can;t beat him blah blah blah". :/

I really don't play the game much (mostly only at the actual tournament now), and actually for Zelda the first Decent Zelda I played was Mocha. That was my first time doing that matchup in a serious set, and I haven't done it again since. Just ask him though, I probably didn't look clueless or inexperienced when we played.

I dunno, I just get matchups really well even if I barely play against that character.

Understatement. He's more than amazing. He's ********. I thought I fought good Wario's before, but not until I met him. He knows how to read opponents really well. I tried to use her priority a lot when we fought, but Wario's air momentum is so fast that with his crazy DI and airdodging all over the place, I really just couldn't reach him. I definitely got a few grab releases on him, but other than that he was still able to punish a lot of what I was trying to accomplish. When it comes to pinacle of Metagames, a better Zelda would be able to think better and be able to punish those approaches more, but in all respect I think Wario has potential to be too fast for Zelda to be able to keep up with sometimes.

@Ninjalink : At HOBO11, I was the only Zelda there.. =D

EDIT: I know I'm not the best Zelda out here, but I do believe I know her a lot though to know quite a few of her matchups. We definitely need more people to try out this. It could be that we don't have enough good matches with each other.

Yeah you were the only Zelda there. And yes I watched some of your other matches after we played and people were impressed.

if he's that good. I'm sure he will. I'm sure an equally good captain falcon would rock my world as well... but does that mean anything? not really.

aside from experience with warios telling me zelda has the advantage, I can't think of any reason she WOULDN'T have the advantage.

once we're done with Wario, BTW, let's do Luigi. he's the only charcter left who I think might have an advantage on zelda.

She has trouble killing unless she gets a grab-LK, she has a lot of commitment on her smashes leaving her vulnerable if Wario baits her or even airdodges through her, and she has a bit of trouble in the air. Couple that with how Well Wario kills, survives, and how he can back off when he needs to, Zelda is gonna have a hard time making him sit still and landing key moves when she needs to.

Most characters have range/priority over Wario, if you just based his matchups on that he would be low tier lol. He works his way inside people's range and beasts them close up. Doesn't matter if you have a priority wall if Wario can airdodge through it or step aside briefly.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Sorry DMG, I wont meatride you again, Sometimes people like it, sometimes not. I know better, thanks for clarifying. No hard feelings?

I'd still put it at 50:50, Bite does go through LK/Nair and I believe Ftilt as well, but lemme test that one more.

 

[Kataefi]

Which LK? She has 2... And I think one of them can go through. 50:50 is reasonable... but can I fight for a 55:45 matchup simply because a Zelda of equal knowledge of the matchup shouldn't be falling for baits so easily. She's not as committed to her smashes as you might think, her jab has started to show use in protecting against SH approaches and it has zero cooldown on the next move.

The only smash she truly is committed is her USmash. FSmash lasts long but is generally very safe.

I'd be willing to fight any UK warios if you have any?

EDIT:: Utilt trades with practically everything and Wario's no exception. If he's at relatively high percents (120+-%) it may kill him outright.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Eh, I dunno, Whatever Phantom says, 50:50 just seems so good though, And remember, its 90:10(In Wario's favor) if the Wario can do the bike launch tech, and the Zelda loves to spam Fsmash at him (Semi-joke)

50:50, 55:45, whatever Phantom says, I'll side either one, but its not 60:40, not in the least.

Also, the bike glitch, its like being hit by a Home Run Bat, so thats why it oneshots so greatly but its very very very situational.

 

[Kataefi]

Is phantom your board dictactor? :? /joke ^^

Also... LM a good counterpick? What other options are there? Zelda's to take him to no slopes???? how does this glitch actually work?

 

[MorphedChaos]

Basically how the glitch works, When wario is going up into wheele position on a slope, if he is hit, he gains an enormous burst of speed, which gives him the KO potential of a Home Run Bat, and makes him jump so high that he takes a very long time (30+ seconds) to come down. If you somehow manage to survive, it also hits from anywhere to 30-80 damage. Its situational, and very few Warios know how to do it, but yeah, thats how you do it. If you go on a stage with a slope, watch out! And he can do this on minor slopes like the ones on Yoshi's island, or the tilting of Lylat.

 

[Kataefi]

I thought you were joking! it sounded like you were being all melodramatic when you talked about how it hits hard like the homerun bat and all this and that ^^ but now I humbly believe you! Sorry =(

Definitely no slopes then. Though din's strikes wario out of the bike regardless from afar (or doesn't it? *goes and tests*)

 

[MorphedChaos]

I can grab you a video of Wario doing this if you want proof XD, but just don't camp out on the slopes is all, and you have no worries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuyf219KbfQ is a video link.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

She has trouble killing unless she gets a grab-LK, she has a lot of commitment on her smashes leaving her vulnerable if Wario baits her or even airdodges through her, and she has a bit of trouble in the air. Couple that with how Well Wario kills, survives, and how he can back off when he needs to, Zelda is gonna have a hard time making him sit still and landing key moves when she needs to.

Most characters have range/priority over Wario, if you just based his matchups on that he would be low tier lol. He works his way inside people's range and beasts them close up. Doesn't matter if you have a priority wall if Wario can airdodge through it or step aside briefly.

okay... even wario's really good airdodge does not outlast zelda's Usmash, and none of his aerials outprioritize it.

Zelda's Fsmash might be committed, but it has a lot of range and not too much cooldown. as long as zelda spaced right with it, wario cannot sidestep -> counter it because he doesn't have anything that'll cover the range between he and zelda fast enough.

Zelda's Dsmash... well that's just too fast. and it's not used the same way anyway.

Wario's bite.... when will he use it.... really? Against zelda that is. Zelda won't be approaching so he's gotta get close enough to use it on her if she's grounded and it will not beat out utilt, usmash, fsmash, Din's, nayru's, farore's or her grab. I know that much. I'm also pretty sure that it won't beat out her dsmash or ftilt if they are properly spaced, but that's iffier and I don't think she'd be using them anyway.

in the air, I don't think it'll beat out anything if she's hitting with the tip of its range because she has so many disjoints.... however, her lightning kicks won't sweetspot unless she gets close enough for bite to grab... even then, sweetspotted lightning kicks do over 20 damage, making them worth trading.

Zelda just doesn't let people close to her very easily. they have to be able to force zelda to approach or be able to reliably get inside of her to beat her. Wario can do neither. he can't force her to approach with anything in his repetoir and he can only get inside of her if he's baiting her. So what if Zelda is easier to kill than zelda, it doesn't mean much when she's being a lot more productive in actually connecting with attacks.

The bike tech doesn't even bear mentioning really. First off, Zelda prefers flat stages in many instances anyway, and even when she doesn't, she's normally going to knock wario off the bike with din's, which he can't do anything about.

I'm not really sure what WOULD be a good stage for the matchup. I can't really think of anything to gimp wario against us, maybe wario mains could provide some insight. I think battlefield normally plays out well for us, but Mansion would probably be even better because it'll limit wario's approach options even more.

 

[Mocha19]

I was probably meatridin' DMG quite a bit myself, so sorry about that.

But he is correct, that was the first time in HOBO history that he's probably played a decent Zelda. And I know that was the first time I played a good Wario, so I imagine both of us had basic knowledge of the matchup at best, so neither of us really had the advantage outside of our own skills.

Airdodging and air movement wasn't the only thing that made that match either. And I think we should take this next thing into account even a little bit in our matchup discussions. The ability to DI Zelda's attacks. Every time I actually hit him with a Fsmash, he DI'd out of it and immediately punished me out of the ending lag unless I rolled away in little time. I believe when DI'd up out of it, he can immediately Dair her or Bite her.

And that was when I was trying to kill him. I swear he even DI'd Usmash a few times too. I may overexaggerating it. but I think the ability to be able to DI Zelda's attacks changes the matchup quite a bit and can be troubling. I trust he knew about Usmash and Utilt too, but I'm assuming most players would surely know to try their best to avoid those attacks. It was really hard for me to get in close enough to hit him with anything on the ground because he was in the air most of the time.

I think this should be 50:50, but I also think more of our Zelda's should play more Wario's as well. I'll go with whatever everyone else wants as well, but if I ever get back in competitive play, I'll definitely be careful of this matchup.

EDIT : It also seems that this particular matchup has us in more disarray than all of the other matchups we've discussed so far. I hope this doesn't start anything.. =[

 

[MorphedChaos]

Go 50:50, and both sides are happy XD

LM is the best stage for Zelda until Wario destroys the stage, so don't let him

 

[Kataefi]

I agree!... I always say though that a match based on baiting is bordering on player skill / character ability. If Wario manages to bait me as Zelda, is that Zelda's fault, or is it mine?

It's one of those matches where the more her players encounter Wario, the more they'll know what to expect in the matchup in terms of baits, making it harder for him.

 

[Villi]

Wario's baiting is as much a character advantage to him as it is to Jiggz and I believe it's valid -- at the very least for the purpose of the Zelda match up. I'm not surprised Mocha's Zelda had trouble catching DMG's Wario as his aerial speed is faster than Zelda's run. o.O

 

[DMG]

Long Post :0​

okay... even wario's really good airdodge does not outlast zelda's Usmash, and none of his aerials outprioritize it.

I've gone through Zelda's Usmash, to the other side, and Fsmashed. I've also DI'd out of it, and whoever says it is easy they are lying lol.

Zelda's Fsmash might be committed, but it has a lot of range and not too much cooldown. as long as zelda spaced right with it, wario cannot sidestep -> counter it because he doesn't have anything that'll cover the range between he and zelda fast enough.

It is extremely hard to properly space Fsmash against Wario, usually when you do get the right range he will just back off anyways (or if they have a DJ they just jump over and Dair). He can Side step it close up if he is shielding and sidesteps to avoid the last few hitboxes.

Wario's bite.... when will he use it.... really? Against zelda that is.

Whenever he is close and predicts a spotdodge, airdodge, or if he falls on top of you with it. Mostly up close.

Zelda just doesn't let people close to her very easily. they have to be able to force zelda to approach or be able to reliably get inside of her to beat her. Wario can do neither. he can't force her to approach with anything in his repetoir and he can only get inside of her if he's baiting her. So what if Zelda is easier to kill than zelda, it doesn't mean much when she's being a lot more productive in actually connecting with attacks.

The bike tech doesn't even bear mentioning really. First off, Zelda prefers flat stages in many instances anyway, and even when she doesn't, she's normally going to knock wario off the bike with din's, which he can't do anything about.

Zelda does have to approach if Wario gets a lead and chooses to camp. That and when Wario does break past Zelda's wall of priority, he usually can string at least another attack or put you under immense pressure where you have to make decisions almost beforehand ESPECIALLY when he props you up in the air. Zelda, when she does hit Wario, can't really follow up on it. She really just kinda knocks him away and waits for him to come back.

And yes, that Bike stuff is USUALLY not worth mentioning. I deem it unworthy to talk about it as a valid technique that SOMEHOW affects the matchup when it doesn't lol.

Morphed, U must really love that Bike Glitch lol... U've posted about it everywhere that you can do it on slopes perfectly and all that.

I'm not really sure what WOULD be a good stage for the matchup. I can't really think of anything to gimp wario against us, maybe wario mains could provide some insight. I think battlefield normally plays out well for us, but Mansion would probably be even better because it'll limit wario's approach options even more.

LM is ok, it will gives you nightmares if Wario decides to camp. If he does and you are forced to tear down the house, then you just gave him a bigger FD basically.

I would take him maybe to some place weird if it is allowed like Distant Planet or Mario Circuit lol. If those aren't allowed, then I dunno.

I was probably meatridin' DMG quite a bit myself, so sorry about that.

Lol but you weren't going around telling people I would beat them bad and stuff.

But he is correct, that was the first time in HOBO history that he's probably played a decent Zelda. And I know that was the first time I played a good Wario, so I imagine both of us had basic knowledge of the matchup at best, so neither of us really had the advantage outside of our own skills.

Yes. Although we both picked up stuff after experimenting the first round (that sounds sooo wrong lmao).

Airdodging and air movement wasn't the only thing that made that match either. And I think we should take this next thing into account even a little bit in our matchup discussions. The ability to DI Zelda's attacks. Every time I actually hit him with a Fsmash, he DI'd out of it and immediately punished me out of the ending lag unless I rolled away in little time. I believe when DI'd up out of it, he can immediately Dair her or Bite her.

And that was when I was trying to kill him. I swear he even DI'd Usmash a few times too. I may overexaggerating it. but I think the ability to be able to DI Zelda's attacks changes the matchup quite a bit and can be troubling. I trust he knew about Usmash and Utilt too, but I'm assuming most players would surely know to try their best to avoid those attacks. It was really hard for me to get in close enough to hit him with anything on the ground because he was in the air most of the time.

Yeah DI up I can Fair, Nair, Dair sorta, and Chomp. I can also Waft but I was afraid that after I DI'd out that I would drop enough trying to do the Waft that one of your hitboxes would cancel it.

I did SDI Usmash a few times, but dear lord it was hard lol. As for using DI on her attacks in general, it works and unfortunately does make Wario a tad harder to kill since when you do finally get that Usmash or Fsmash he can SDI it. That and since he is in the air, sometimes really high in the air, Zelda just has to wait for him to get lower before she can kill him. And that can be hard if he stays up there all day.

I think this should be 50:50, but I also think more of our Zelda's should play more Wario's as well. I'll go with whatever everyone else wants as well, but if I ever get back in competitive play, I'll definitely be careful of this matchup.

EDIT : It also seems that this particular matchup has us in more disarray than all of the other matchups we've discussed so far. I hope this doesn't start anything.. =[

Yes I should take a Nationwide tour and go play all the Zelda's. Actually that would be fun, a nationwide trip lol.

Yeah, no disarray people, especially you Wario followers/worshipers.

Wario's baiting is as much a character advantage to him as it is to Jiggz and I believe it's valid -- at the very least for the purpose of the Zelda match up. I'm not surprised Mocha's Zelda had trouble catching DMG's Wario as his aerial speed is faster than Zelda's run. o.O

Yeah u can kinda run circles around her in the air literally lol.

 

[MorphedChaos]

DMG, I love the bike glitch, because I can do it regularly now, and on Corneria, I can do it without being hit, but its more like getting hit with a pokeball for its knockback >.>

 

[Kataefi]

But she won't solely be using FSmash and USmash for the kill. Those + nair are her only SDIable attacks. But there are plenty of other kill moves.

 

[Mocha19]

True, but they're all really slow with the exception of Dsmash. And using those against a fast opponent like Wario in the air isn't very safe unless you really can bait him into them. Dsmash kills were the only ones that I got. Not to mention, he was able to SDI her other moves in order to not die so easily. I was just using those moves for reference to state that it's hard than most people think to get a kill on a constantly DI'ing opponent. It's really hard to get a grab too.

Wario's also one of those few characters that have the potential to recover high above the stage and with his ability to move fast in the air, depending on what stage, he has a good chance at making it past an edge-guarding Zelda.

EDIT : If we get to DK anytime soon, I wanna talk about that matchup too. It should be fun.

 

[RoyalBlood]

How viable is the grab release > LK technique? D: Wario can get annoying to KO >_>

Update : Peach added D: The image is too big >_>

 

[Villi]

If you land a grab, and there's no platform for him to land on and guard, the lightning kick is 100%.

 

[Mocha19]

The lightning kick out of the grab is pretty easy to get. Getting the grab to do it is another story. =P

 

[Kataefi]

omg your summaries are so funny! very nice read. Does that make mine void or can I still do mine? so I have a sense of purpose >.> lmao!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If you land a grab, and there's no platform for him to land on and guard, the lightning kick is 100%.

depending on distance from a blast zone. I think it can kill as early as 60% even with good DI, but is survivable up to pretty high double digits if the blast zone is far away and it's DI'd correctly.

getting that much damage on wario is not hard and zelda has a large enough grab range that she should be grabbing him at least a couple of times a match. it makes a nice reversal if a wario is trying to falling bite you or dair you. a quick pivot grab will tend to do it.

However, as good as this is, it's not something I think you can rely on getting ridiculously early KOs for us. still, it's something to consider that helps us.

wario can give us some trouble when he gets us in the air, and he's got a lot more surviveablility, but, really, Zelda has the upper hand on the ground and, where will most of the battle be faught?

Like I said. this isn't a big advantage for zelda, but it feels like the match is pretty clearly in our hands.

somewhere between the ranges of 65 and 55 our advantage. I'd say 60 was best, but I wouldn't hate the other two possibilities.

 

[Villi]

I was talking about success rate out of a grab release. :3 It is difficult to actually land a grab though.

Wario can survive passed 70% being kicked from the edge if his DI is absolutely fabulous.

 

[Mocha19]

omg your summaries are so funny! very nice read. Does that make mine void or can I still do mine? so I have a sense of purpose >.> lmao!

Ouch.. =[

10ouchies

 

[MrEh]

The Lightning Kick grab release is kind of negligible though.

Wario is hard to grab. Very hard to grab.


Trust me, I'm a Bowser main. Grab releases are all Bowser has on Wario, and it's total hell for him just to land the grab. Zelda, like Bowser, does not have a spectacular grab range, so it's not something you can easily exploit.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The Lightning Kick grab release is kind of negligible though.

Wario is hard to grab. Very hard to grab.


Trust me, I'm a Bowser main. Grab releases are all Bowser has on Wario, and it's total hell for him just to land the grab. Zelda, like Bowser, does not have a spectacular grab range, so it's not something you can easily exploit.

Zelda has really good grab range <.<

 

[Bandit]

As far as a stage, I would have to assume FD or Smashville would be good counters because of the lack of platforms to keep the grab release in play all the time.

Zelda's grab is slow, but the range is great. She has options to get a grab; we just don't use them much since most characters there isn't much use for them.

 

[DarkThundah]

DM and Myself are willing to take that challenge

Yeah, way to represent!

 

[DMG]

depending on distance from a blast zone. I think it can kill as early as 60% even with good DI, but is survivable up to pretty high double digits if the blast zone is far away and it's DI'd correctly.

getting that much damage on wario is not hard and zelda has a large enough grab range that she should be grabbing him at least a couple of times a match. it makes a nice reversal if a wario is trying to falling bite you or dair you. a quick pivot grab will tend to do it.

However, as good as this is, it's not something I think you can rely on getting ridiculously early KOs for us. still, it's something to consider that helps us.

wario can give us some trouble when he gets us in the air, and he's got a lot more surviveablility, but, really, Zelda has the upper hand on the ground and, where will most of the battle be faught?

Like I said. this isn't a big advantage for zelda, but it feels like the match is pretty clearly in our hands.

somewhere between the ranges of 65 and 55 our advantage. I'd say 60 was best, but I wouldn't hate the other two possibilities.

I survived a fresh one past 90% somewhat near the edge. :0

Zelda should only be able to grab Wario if he:

1. Doesn't realize ahead of time that his approach won't work and yet still goes on with it.

2. He does an aerial and doesn't fast fall/retreat right and he gets landing lag.

Getting damage on Wario IS hard because he is hard to hit. He's not just hard to kill, he's hard to hit with anything.

Also, a lot of the match will be Zelda on the ground and Wario in the air. Obviously you outrange him on the ground, but he doesn't fight there much. U can't force him to fight on your terms, he controls the flow of battle 95% of the time. So Zelda's main advantage on outranging him on the ground is devalued some since she doesn't have an airgame that would make him want to stay on the ground much.

Also, if we wanna talk about maximum potential, Wario could easily camp/run with a % lead. Zelda's airgame is far from superb, she runs slower than he moves in the air, and he can just dodge Din's Fire relatively easy. Wario wins. GG all he has to do is approach in her vicinity, poke safely, and continue moving around. :0

I was talking about success rate out of a grab release. :3 It is difficult to actually land a grab though.

Wario can survive passed 70% being kicked from the edge if his DI is absolutely fabulous.

If there are no platforms, all you need is good enough timing to sweetspot the kick.

The Lightning Kick grab release is kind of negligible though.

Wario is hard to grab. Very hard to grab.


Trust me, I'm a Bowser main. Grab releases are all Bowser has on Wario, and it's total hell for him just to land the grab. Zelda, like Bowser, does not have a spectacular grab range, so it's not something you can easily exploit.

<3 MrEh.

As far as a stage, I would have to assume FD or Smashville would be good counters because of the lack of platforms to keep the grab release in play all the time.

Zelda's grab is slow, but the range is great. She has options to get a grab; we just don't use them much since most characters there isn't much use for them.

Say no to Smashville; that floating platform will screw you up most likely if you do happen to grab him at a higher % (since he can break when he wants to and land on the platform.)

 

[RoyalBlood]

And the low ceiling is even worse VS Wario....U-air >_>

Pokemon Stadium 2 seems nice except I faced a really good Wario there and got mindgamed horribly ;_;

Oh well ^_^

omg your summaries are so funny! very nice read. Does that make mine void or can I still do mine? so I have a sense of purpose >.> lmao!

But I'm counting on you! D:

 

[MorphedChaos]

The Lightning Kick grab release is kind of negligible though.

Wario is hard to grab. Very hard to grab.


Trust me, I'm a Bowser main. Grab releases are all Bowser has on Wario, and it's total hell for him just to land the grab. Zelda, like Bowser, does not have a spectacular grab range, so it's not something you can easily exploit.

<3 MrEh, he'll probably get me to pick up Bowser as a secondary.

Yes, Wario is VERY VERY hard to grab, D3 is the character with the best chance to grab Wario due to his grab range, which I know for a fact Zelda does not have. Thats why the matchup is so bad for Wario vs D3, D3's ability to grab Wario out of any areal if timed right, unless the Wario DI's perfectly. Zelda has none of this, so you don't have the grab to LK advantage like D3 has the Grab to Utilt, so thats why you don't have an advantage vs Wario. (Not to mention D3's CG, and Halberd Infinite)

Also, I think Bowser has a better grab range then Zelda, so its even harder for Zelda to grab Wario.

Of course Wario mains are rare, so you don't need to worry too much about them.

And yes, Wario can survive a fresh LK from the edge of FD at 80% with perfect DI and bike stopping. (Airdodge to Bike, it stops all momentum.)

 

[Kataefi]

Nope Zelda has a better grab range than bowser =) Her pivot grab is also quite good.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Like I said, Good luck grabbing him, Even as D3 I still have a hard time grabbing a good Wario, and D3 was my previous main. Wario is the hardest to grab, but suffers the most from it XD

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda's grab is only subpar because of it's speed. it actually has fantastic range. I wouldn't be surprised if it had more horizontal range than DDD's but I really have no idea there.(though DDD's obviously would have much more useable speed)

I would NOT recomend pokemon stadium 2 for the matchup in ANY circumstance. Stadium 2 CLEARLY favours charcters who spend more time in the air than on the ground and that's wario this matchup... in fact, it's almost never zelda. Besides, Stadium 2 is banned often because of how dramatic the stage trasnformations are.

And wario does not control even close to 95% of the match. I mean, you're a wario main, so of course you'd say that, but, while Zelda can't force wario to stay gronded, he has JUST as hard a time forcing her airborne and, no, normally he won't be able to string things together to keep her there.

most of the match will be faught with wario in the air and zelda on the ground and, frankly, zelda's groundgame beats out wario's air game. True, he can bait, but that really doesn't have much bearing on the matchup. why? well because how does that have to do with the characters? that is akin to saing that, while metaknight beats out captain falcon's approaches, if falcon baits him, he can punish metaknight and that makes the matchup even. I KNOW the example is a bit extreme because wario's air speed makes him a pretty good baiter and zelda's attacks are more commited than metaknight's, but, all in all, if you aren't baiting zelda, you AREN'T winning this matchup. she beats you out of the water and you need to trick her to win. Unlike peach, you don't have an easy, reliable, uncounterable poke that can punish us if we get baited and won't harm you if we don't. If you fail at baiting us, you eat damage. end of story.

Wario can kill zelda at lower damages than she can kill him for the most part, but, again, unless baited, wario will have a hell of a time trying to land a finishing blow on us. You can claim that, at the top of their metagame, warios will be able to bait zelda easily, but the same principle applies both ways insofar that, at the top of their metagame, zeldas will be much harder to bait. So it comes down to, realistically, you will bait some, but you will fail at baiting more often. Simple probability dictates this. If zelda is in your head, you won't bait her. if you are in zelda's head, you will. and if neither is in the other's head, normally you won't succede at baiting. due to this, zelda WILL wrack up damge on wario more quickly than he will wrack up damage on her. Also, while zelda can be killed at lower damages, wario has a hard enough time landing a kill move that Zelda will tend to land the kill move first. besides, a lot of his kill moves are punishable if they don't connect.

It won't be a blow out no matter what, but, quite simply, zelda SHOULD be killing wario first every life. even if she barely lives into his next life, she's still winning most of the matches until he can change momentum... and even if he DOES get momentum, it's not like his defensive game is exceptionally threatening all things considered.

yes, it's winnable for him but, no, it's not easy. Zelda should win, but it's not a sure thing. that sounds like the definition og a 60:40 matchup. IT's like all of zelda's matchups really. Zelda is frail and is punishable if she gets sloppy. really, she is. For this reason, it's never THAT hard to kill her if she's letting you hit her so it seems like she should have worse matchups than she does. But, really, at top levels, she shouldn't BE sloppy. her advantage comes from being difficult to hit because all of her range and priority. and I'm sure wario can infiltrate that, but it seems to me like the wario mains here are assuming that Zelda will be way sloppier than she should be.

Be patient, don't expose yourself to punishment and be sure to pay attention to the matchup, don't let him start baining you and it's your matchup to lose. Zelda's got the advantage here. it's how large the advantage is that's the question.

in wario's fairness, he's very difficult to finish off, he's strong, he's mildly difficult to hit (very dificult to hit for someone with his parameters) and he baits better than the average character. that makes him a better charcter than zelda as far as from a purely comparitive standpoint. But Brawl is a game of options. Zelda's tactics limit wario's options. he still has options, so the matchup CAN'T be that bad, but because zelda limits his options enough, I can't see the match as even.

like I said. I see it as 60:40. I'm not obstinant though, if it seems more plausible, I'd be fine with 55:45... it's just... whenever the wario mains try to suggest that it's a better matchup than that... their reasoning seems like. they are severely underestimating zelda rather than surprising me with something I didn't know/give enough credit to.

 

[DMG]

Zelda's grab is only subpar because of it's speed. it actually has fantastic range. I wouldn't be surprised if it had more horizontal range than DDD's but I really have no idea there.(though DDD's obviously would have much more useable speed)

I would NOT recomend pokemon stadium 2 for the matchup in ANY circumstance. Stadium 2 CLEARLY favours charcters who spend more time in the air than on the ground and that's wario this matchup... in fact, it's almost never zelda. Besides, Stadium 2 is banned often because of how dramatic the stage trasnformations are.

And wario does not control even close to 95% of the match. I mean, you're a wario main, so of course you'd say that, but, while Zelda can't force wario to stay gronded, he has JUST as hard a time forcing her airborne and, no, normally he won't be able to string things together to keep her there.

It does not have more range than Dedede's. She has trouble grabbing Wario because every character has trouble grabbing Wario. He's slippery lol.

PS2 is banned, lol @ who recommended that.

Wario controls the flow of battle... Don't believe me? He chooses how/when he approaches, he forces Zelda to come to him when he gets a lead, he forces you to make decisions in the air, he is the one doing most of the stuff. Zelda isn't even really fighting Wario as much as she is trying to keep him away. Since she is no queen at approaching, she is hoping to keep Wario away and land some hits on him when he approaches since she herself can't approach very well. That's a pretty defensive role for a character to take in a battle.

He forces her airborne quite easily, most of his aerials knock her off the ground. Dair combos into Fsmash at lower %'s, Fast Falled Claps, Nair, and even Bair lol (although Fair does keep you in the air and I can use that after Dair.)

Wario doesn't send her straight up necessarily, but when he hits she is usually sent into the air, which is bad.

most of the match will be faught with wario in the air and zelda on the ground and, frankly, zelda's groundgame beats out wario's air game. True, he can bait, but that really doesn't have much bearing on the matchup. why? well because how does that have to do with the characters? that is akin to saing that, while metaknight beats out captain falcon's approaches, if falcon baits him, he can punish metaknight and that makes the matchup even. I KNOW the example is a bit extreme because wario's air speed makes him a pretty good baiter and zelda's attacks are more commited than metaknight's, but, all in all, if you aren't baiting zelda, you AREN'T winning this matchup. she beats you out of the water and you need to trick her to win. Unlike peach, you don't have an easy, reliable, uncounterable poke that can punish us if we get baited and won't harm you if we don't. If you fail at baiting us, you eat damage. end of story.

Wario can kill zelda at lower damages than she can kill him for the most part, but, again, unless baited, wario will have a hell of a time trying to land a finishing blow on us. You can claim that, at the top of their metagame, warios will be able to bait zelda easily, but the same principle applies both ways insofar that, at the top of their metagame, zeldas will be much harder to bait. So it comes down to, realistically, you will bait some, but you will fail at baiting more often. Simple probability dictates this. If zelda is in your head, you won't bait her. if you are in zelda's head, you will. and if neither is in the other's head, normally you won't succede at baiting. due to this, zelda WILL wrack up damge on wario more quickly than he will wrack up damage on her. Also, while zelda can be killed at lower damages, wario has a hard enough time landing a kill move that Zelda will tend to land the kill move first. besides, a lot of his kill moves are punishable if they don't connect.

It won't be a blow out no matter what, but, quite simply, zelda SHOULD be killing wario first every life. even if she barely lives into his next life, she's still winning most of the matches until he can change momentum... and even if he DOES get momentum, it's not like his defensive game is exceptionally threatening all things considered.

She beats his game IN RANGE, range does not dictate everything in a matchup. We don't just have to bait you, we can also just mix it up and come straight at you. One approach we can come and airdodge behind you, one we can back off, one we can just flat out go for Dair or an attack, we can DJ, etc. He can land next to you and go for a grab/Smash/spotdodge/shieldgrab/etc. It's a fairly diverse pool of options for Wario that her range just is not the complete solution for. AND, even if you do guess right Wario usually has the mobility to just step away.

Wario is heavier, recovers better, and kills quicker. Why should he die first? Especially if he can SDI a lot of her moves to live well longer than he should?

yes, it's winnable for him but, no, it's not easy. Zelda should win, but it's not a sure thing. that sounds like the definition og a 60:40 matchup. IT's like all of zelda's matchups really. Zelda is frail and is punishable if she gets sloppy. really, she is. For this reason, it's never THAT hard to kill her if she's letting you hit her so it seems like she should have worse matchups than she does. But, really, at top levels, she shouldn't BE sloppy. her advantage comes from being difficult to hit because all of her range and priority. and I'm sure wario can infiltrate that, but it seems to me like the wario mains here are assuming that Zelda will be way sloppier than she should be.

Be patient, don't expose yourself to punishment and be sure to pay attention to the matchup, don't let him start baining you and it's your matchup to lose. Zelda's got the advantage here. it's how large the advantage is that's the question.

in wario's fairness, he's very difficult to finish off, he's strong, he's mildly difficult to hit (very dificult to hit for someone with his parameters) and he baits better than the average character. that makes him a better charcter than zelda as far as from a purely comparitive standpoint. But Brawl is a game of options. Zelda's tactics limit wario's options. he still has options, so the matchup CAN'T be that bad, but because zelda limits his options enough, I can't see the match as even.

If Zelda was really that good at the top level, she would be up the tier list. Plain and simple. Wario gets infinited... INFINITED by characters and he is higher than her... He has less range and priority than most of the cast and he is higher than her... He's a good character because of how safe he is and because of how berserk he can get once he gets just a single opening.

Wario never wins on range or priority, he wins because he has better options than most of the cast when in close combat 90% of the time. The campiest characters in Brawl have trouble with him because of how well he can get in close and work his magic. Zelda is no exception.

like I said. I see it as 60:40. I'm not obstinant though, if it seems more plausible, I'd be fine with 55:45... it's just... whenever the wario mains try to suggest that it's a better matchup than that... their reasoning seems like. they are severely underestimating zelda rather than surprising me with something I didn't know/give enough credit to.

Zelda has the advantage in range/priority. Name something else she has the advantage in. Kill power? Recovery? Damage? Weight? Speed? Wario wins in just about everything else. That's why I find it hard to see her having an advantage based on mostly range and priority, unless there is something else about her that I am missing.




Also, I don't want my comments to sound negative. I just have some points I wanted to address. Ty

 

[PhantomX]

The problem isn't us underestimating Zelda, it's everyone underestimating Wario. The people that can grab us most easily are those that have an air or ground speed/range good enough to chase us with, and that force us to shield on the ground [as opposed to spotdodge or roll away] (Marth and Watch and Sonic come to mind). Zelda can't keep up, we will NEVER be in a position to get grabbed without making a mistake.

 

[DMG]

The problem isn't us underestimating Zelda, it's everyone underestimating Wario. The people that can grab us most easily are those that have an air or ground speed/range good enough to chase us with, and that force us to shield on the ground [as opposed to spotdodge or roll away] (Marth and Watch and Sonic come to mind). Zelda can't keep up, we will NEVER be in a position to get grabbed without making a mistake.

Well I would never say never, but it is very hard for her to grab us.