Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[DMG]

Grab Release to Dair can be SDI'd into the stage I thought, and if not Wario can DJ and try to recover (although obviously not if he has no DJ).

I dunno, I think Wario has a small edge. I played Mocha and even though he got 2 grab release to LK's (none of them were at Killing %'s luckily), I still won by a pretty fair margin. Dtilt Locks are easily avoided, just shield after you get hit by a Dtilt that doesn't trip and if they Dtilt your shield you can punish it (OR you can SDI the Dtilts to land behind her lol). If they go for a grab, u can spotdodge and etc for their other close up options.

Zelda has some issues getting down safely, Wario mauls here like a Bear once he gets her airborne lol. He also can harass her while she recovers pretty well. On the ground, she has some pretty decent range and some godly priority, but the priority she gets on Fsmash and Usmash comes at the price of a lot of commitment. All Wario has to do is let the bait get taken and punish. I honestly find her tilts more annoying than her smashes (Mostly Ftilt and then Utilt), but even those aren't really that bad, just surprising at times.

I dunno, maybe I need to play some more Zelda's but I really don't see it being worse than 50:50 for Wario. Biggest issue I see is that He really kills her fast while she struggles to land a kill move during the entire match.

 

[Kataefi]

Ah I see! I think they do go roughly even. The bike jump sets up for din's > uair / utilt / usmash which are all killers.

Zelda shouldn't really be dtilting your shield, because that can be punished. But once in the lock it's harder to SDI out of, but still possible. Dtilt also trips and sets up for Utilt, and works even better against smaller characters like wario.

I think the matchup is just a case of getting through her priority and finding openings. She's not that bad in the air. I can Fw down to the ground if that helps, and her airdodge is quite good. Also, LKs unexpectedly sweetspot in this position :? (for me anyways ^^)

 

[DMG]

Ah I see! I think they do go roughly even. The bike jump sets up for din's > uair / utilt / usmash which are all killers.

Trust me it is very hard to hit Wario with Din's fire, he's only gonna get hit if he uses Bike after you have initiated Din's fire, and that is assuming you aren't too far away and that he isn't too high/low when he uses his Bike. The problem with it though is that it actually helps his recovery if he just takes the hit, making it hard for you to actually gimp him by hitting him. U would almost have a better chance aiming the Din's fire around him to scare him instead of trying to actually hit him.

Zelda shouldn't really be dtilting your shield, because that can be punished. But once in the lock it's harder to SDI out of, but still possible. Dtilt also trips and sets up for Utilt, and works even better against smaller characters like Wario.

I meant once a Dtilt that doesn't trip actually hits Wario, he can just shield (So say you hit him once, it trips, then you hit him again and it doesn't, he can then shield after that 2nd Dtilt). If you go for another Dtilt AT THAT point, that's where you would hit his shield. If you were to go for a grab then, he could spotdodge.

I think the matchup is just a case of getting through her priority and finding openings. She's not that bad in the air. I can Fw down to the ground if that helps, and her airdodge is quite good. Also, LKs unexpectedly sweetspot in this position :? (for me anyways ^^)

Her Airdodge is ok, but her maneuverability sucks in the air. I can follow you for a bit while you airdoge and wait for it to expire. If she was a bit more mobile, it would be a pain to follow her, but she is kinda sluggish trying to change momentum. As for FW, that still leaves you quite a bit open unless you win the guessing game (using it at the center of the stage is harder to punish than nearer one of the edges obviously). And LK does sweetspot sometimes, but if he is at the right range his Clap will outrange anything you can use to strike below.

 

[Villi]

Wario can just be all over her. It's so gross. lol@ maul her like a Bear. ... and the clap. utfiuyf

Wario brings up valid points. He's harder to edge guard than most, but not near impossible like G&W or MK. It still requires a big brain fart for him to die by anything but a high percent KO or lightning kick.

Beware the half-waft. >.< When does that come into effect?

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah Zelda's air speed is awful. I think her saving grace lies in her priority for this match. I think bike jump still sets up for usmash or uair though because it's height.

Also jab spam is good against SH approaches by wario when she's on the ground.

 

[DMG]

Beware the half-waft. >.< When does that come into effect?

Well technically a half waft is after 55 seconds I think, but it grows stronger each second. Near it's maximum potential (which is actually a second before it turns into a full waft), it kills Mario from the center of FD at around 50% without DI... That is pretty scary lol.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Yeah Zelda's air speed is awful. I think her saving grace lies in her priority for this match. I think bike jump still sets up for usmash or uair though because it's height.

Also jab spam is good against SH approaches by wario when she's on the ground.

At least she has it better than :

• Samus
• Lucario
• Ness, Mario
• Solid Snake
• Toon Link, Ike
• Pikachu, Peach
• R.O.B, Pit, Fox, Falco
• Ganondorf
• Kirby
• Sheik
• Olimar
• Diddy Kong
• Link
• Meta Knight
• Ivysaur, Ice Climbers
• Luigi
• King Dedede

And a question, how often does Wario mains use D-smash?

 

[Kataefi]

That is good! Do you guys time yourselves in a match?

You sure showed me royal =O Didn't know that many people were slower than her!

 

[DMG]

At least she has it better than :

• Samus
• Lucario
• Ness, Mario
• Solid Snake
• Toon Link, Ike
• Pikachu, Peach
• R.O.B, Pit, Fox, Falco
• Ganondorf
• Kirby
• Sheik
• Olimar
• Diddy Kong
• Link
• Meta Knight
• Ivysaur, Ice Climbers
• Luigi
• King Dedede

And a question, how often does Wario mains use D-smash?

Is that list about pure horizontal speed in one direction, or is it on their ability to change momentum in the air?

Also, for Dsmash we rarely use it unless we predict a spotdodge or we want a long lasting move to punish airdodges. That or we mess up and do Dsmash for no reason lol.

That is good! Do you guys time yourselves in a match?

Internal Timer and also the 8 minute timer helps.

 

[PhantomX]

I use Dsmash for excessive rollers, or occasionally throw it in at higher percents. Last tournament I went to I used it a whopping one time (and it got me the win for a round XD). Anything you attempt after our bikejump will only hit us if we're being ******** and can't dodge. Unless you can chase offstage our recovery is perfect, lol.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Air speed is the rate a character can move left or right while in mid-air. Air speed, along with falling speed, are factors in how far a character can recover.

Note that several characters with lower air speeds have ways of increasing their speeds (e.g. Meta Knight can glide, Luigi can use Green Missile, etc.)

10misconceptions

 

[Villi]

I don't there's a list for changing direction, but Zelda's isn't half bad. I can't see it from a Wario perspective, tho. How does she compare to characters who aren't Jiggz or Wario?

 

[Brinzy]

We encounter early that Ness' aerial game is pretty good >_> As such, most Nesses will play the majority of the battle in the air. What you should know to avoid getting smacked around is that you have something to stop it : U-smash Usmash will almost always override Ness aerials with its amazing priority BUT don't stay calm, Ness can still take you out of it by spacing himself out of Usmash range. There are 2 aerials of which you should stay alert : Bair and Fair.

Add nair to this list.

Nair
1. His fastest aerial
2. Good knockback
3. Can be used twice in a single shorthop, so don't try to punish the first

What's the deal with those 2? Well :​

• • Back Air :​

1. Very strong knockback​
2. Decent speed​
3. Nice range?​

• • Forward Air :​

1. Too much range ​
2. Approaching tool​
3. Decent Speed​
4. Multi-hit​

So one is the kill move and the other cannot be shield grabbed >_> unless they space it badly Just be careful of those 2 and don't try to U-smash them OoS unless the Ness player has bad spacing. Once again Zelda's amazing air speed saves her from being air harassed Ness is 3 positions lower than our princess as you can see here. Also note that Uair beats his Dair, Nair does it too, F-tilt too ( hit the foot with your hand) U-tilt will trade (I think), Dair beats Uair and your Bair will trade with his (confirmation needed). Don't stay in the air for too long

- utilt will beat every single one of Ness's aerials but fair
- Usmash will beat every single one of Ness's aerials but a properly spaced fair
- uair will beat every aerial except for fair, but that's odd positioning anyway
- nair can beat his nair, but it's not really recommended to use nair to try and beat out any of his aerials
- bairs will trade. So will fair vs. bair.


Ness' ground game is decent but effective His bat serves as a nice KO move and can reflect projectiles (but not Din's ) , the Yo-yo is now buffed up and kicking butt, his d-tilt is very fast and racks up damage the same way too, his other tilts are also very fast and his jab comes out in frame 2 as explained here. He is actually pretty fast on the ground more than in the air but don't worry, Zelda has the upper hand here You can punish him nicely here with Lightning kicks OoS, D-smash and stuff. Your F-smash will outrange a lot of what he can do and it also outspeeds Ness' F-smash by 4 frames woot! Take that bat When he's charging his Yo-yo don't come near him, you'll only damage yourself unless you want to try something risky like LKing his big head The safest alternative is to use Din's Fire. For his d-tilt DI away from him, you'll eat 2-3 at best, F-tilt....lol XD Just D-smash him OoS, U-tilt just Nair when returning to ground at low percents, we don't want to get KOed.

- His jab comes out on frame 3
- generally speaking, when he's on the ground, he'll be triyng to use SH aerials vs. Zelda. This is because the majority of his ground moves are, to say the least, bad. If he's running or making short dashes, expect a dash attack or an Usmash. Shield both and punish with ftilt or Dsmash, depending on how spaced out he is.
- Fsmash will outrange dash attack... it's true.
- dtilt can trip you, so look out. On the other hand, at lower damages, you can use YOUR dtilt right on him because it has very, very low hitstun. DIing out is safest, but at low damages, go for the dtilt anyway, or even the Dsmash
- Don't attempt to nair him on the way down from his utilt. It's disjointed and will hit Zelda. Just focus on landing.
- A Ness that spends any decent amount of time on the ground is trying to grab you. The only thing you really need to sheild is Usmash and dash attack. Spotdodging works for most of his moves and it also takes out his grab, which can then be punished easily by Dsmash.
- Overall, his ground game is NOT good. Usmash and dash attack are really his most potent moves for quickly closing space and attacking. Dsmash has decent range, but you can see it coming. If he's not facing you, expect Dsmash. Just stay out of range of everything else and you won't have to deal with his ground moves much at all.

AKA Back Throw A lot of his throws carry KO potential within so you better have good spacing if you wish to live. Don't use D-smash past 80% as an attack, mainly use it as a OoS option or if you really want to use it then be sure to hit only with the boot. Don't U-smash his shield randomly, use it for aerial attacks and approaches, F-smash has enough shield pushback but still space it correctly. Same goes with for tilts, be specially careful with U-tilt and Nayru's Love, aside from that you shouldn't have problems.

- 80% is too early to be worrying about it unless you're near the edge (but DIing up still saves Zelda). Wait until about 110% to worry about B-throw. As a matter of fact, once you hit this %, Ness players tend to become a lot EASIER because a lot of them are looking to b-throw you. Start spotdodging more, but try to not fall for anything. There isn't much Ness can do otherwise to fool you into spotdodging, so it shouldn't be too hard to dodge his attempts to grab you all the time. Watch out for pivot grabs. Stay alert in general.
- F-throw and D-throw are his most used throws, depending on the opponent. DI away from Ness if he uses D-throw and DI up if he uses F-throw. He will not be able to get a guaranteed follow-up. Ever.

Self explanatory.....



Just kidding

PK Flash, PK Fire and PK Thunder. All with a purpose, all with a bother >_<
​

• PK Flash​

PK Flash main purpose is to edgeguard due to its horrendous lag. Given Zelda's recovery, you should really worry about this one since Ness' can just wait until Zelda reappears to detonate it Luckily Din's Fire can get faster to Ness than PK Flash can get to us. But the safest choice is without doubt Nayru's Love, who knows, maybe you'll get lucky and get Ness into the explosion range

- Definitely seek to reflect this on Ness whenever possible. It is not expected and you're pretty much completely safe.
- Let's say you're low and he's using PK Flash. First off, use Nayru's at least once to stall, as Farore's should get you to where you need to go. Usually, by the time you see the move coming out and you Nayru's, it won't be detonating until you're gone or you're on the ledge. As a matter of fact...
- ALWAYS aim for the edge. Do not try to land anywhere else because PK Flash can reach Zelda in time thanks to her lag. If Ness starts PK Flash a bit late, warping into him can work, but he can cancel it whenever he wants, so this is really a dire option that should only be used when you can't get the edge. Also, he'll detonate it over himself to protect from Farore's, so don't fall for this.
​

• PK Fire

PK Fire is used by Ness as a combo starter or as a set up for one of his kill moves, most notably grabs.
The best5 thing to do here is to reflect it ^_^ Even if you get trapped in it, you can use Nayru's Love and it'll become yours, preventing Ness from getting close to you.

- There are times when it's good to reflect and times when you need to DI out. Ness players like to use this so they can get a free dair on Zelda. Try to DI out because if you're caught in the center of it, Nayru's will not come out in time. If you KNOW he's trying to grab you, Nayru's the whole thing. If you're not sure, it's usually best to just eat the dair because that's probably not going to kill you as opposed to anything else he has. Nayru's and the PK Fire pillar will protect from everything else, so don't worry about those
- If Ness is calmly waiting for you to return from being knocked off stage, he is usually waiting to PK Fire you. Just dodge it.
-

• PK Thunder

PK Thunder may be actually the best of his projectiles because it's fully controllable, has a special kind of knockback and also grants Ness another attack, the uber powerful PKT 1 that will start killing you around 20%....if HE can land it Once again our reflector serves a nice purpose here, Din's Fire is another alternative as well as Fair and Bair. For PKT 1 just F-smash him out of it or even Nayru's Love his butt Be wary that since PK Thunder is fully controllable Ness' mains like to maneuver with it to mindgame you Just run out of his range and start spamming Din's or if you're close to him use your Dash attack of your Forward Smash. Also PKT 1 will be used as Ness primary recovery, the downside is that this leaves Ness really vulnerable ;0 Just jump in there and Dair his big head or the PK thunder, but to be safe use Din's Fire from onstage and practice so that you only hit the PK thunder while Ness falls to his doom

- PKT1 is the string of electricity. PKT2 is Ness blasting himself off
- Reflecting it can work out for you, but don't be fooled into getting hit by the tail
- Airdodge and move away from him. It's really not going to keep you in the air for that long.
- When being edgeguarded with this, you have to take gambles. This move can protect the edge (though not from a sweetspot with Farore's), it can protect Ness, it can be sent after you, or it can even force you to be hit by PKT2. The best thing to do is to warp onto the edge as always, but if you can warp into Ness BEFORE he hits himself with PKT1, then do that.
- If Ness is out of range of Din's and if it isn't safe to go out and hit him (or in other words, if he's recovering from below the stage), just wait at the edge, listen to the move start up, wait a split second, and when he's yelling, edgehog. Just walk off the stage and move Zelda towards the edge to quickly grab it.
- Hitting Ness with Din's as he's blasting off will cut the distance it can travel and it'll slow him a bit. You could actually hit him with Din's and edgehog him... if you're fast enough.

This is what prevents Zelda from getting the advantage here Ness' PSI Magnet will absorb any energy based attack that comes within its range and Din's Fire enters that category. But don't worry, that doesn't means Din's won't be used at all, actually Din's can be used quite a lot in here ^__^ There are a lot of moments where Ness' can't respond nor fend himself, that's when you'll use it AND in comparison with Lucas' PSI Magnet, Ness' animation seems quite slow so sometimes Din's Fire will override it. You can also bait him into taking out to punish him or while he's recovering to make him lose height

- PSI Magnet is the most overrated move in this fight. Just don't use Din's from afar. You can be at a distance where Din's will hit but the Ness won't be able to react to it with PSI Magnet because he'll be too busy trying to play defensive with his aerials.
- If you play a Ness who knows that Din's can cancel out PKT1 when recovering, he'll usually use PSI Magnet when he's level with the stage. You can predict this ahead of time and get an easy aerial on him, OR you can just stand back and not use Din's and just edgehog him later.
-Don't let PSI Magnet ruin anything for you. It is not that great of a move.

Finally once again another short summary :



Your mindset :

• Stay grounded (critically important)
• Use Din's smartly
• Exploit your range
• Play with his projectiles ^__^

Conclusion: Fight in the ground, use your reflector a lot and gimp Ness :bigthumbu

Discussion from post : #66 to #90
​

Useful threads for the matchup :

• Ness' Frame Data
• Super Smash Bros. Brawl air speed rankings

Match : VS

Match-up : 50:50

Recommended Stage

​

Yoshi's Island in the spotlight because:​

• It hinders his projectile and combo game
• Close blast zones
• Aids Zelda poking properties
• Screws up his recovery Shy guys FTW!

So as we can see the terrain here destroys his PK Fire given the trajectory he sends it at, diagonal duh! Zelda can poke extremely well here with the platform above her and chase Ness to some extent. Shy guys can intercept his PK Thunder in an attempt of recovery A nice stage overall, just take in account that when trying to warp from below the stage in an attempt to recover with Farore's Wind tilt the control stick COMPLETELY vertical, otherwise Zelda won't move anywhere and get KOed, also avoid using Din's Fire on the ledges, you'll slip


- Avoid Pirate Ship and Delfino's Plaza. In short, they help Ness and hurt you. It'll turn into an advantage for him.

Hope this helps.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Oh, don't take Wario to any stage with a slant unless you have a death-wish, Bike through your Fsmash or Usmash while doing a Wheele on a hill means you get oneshotted from 0% to death. Not to mention Wario jumps so high that it'll take at least a minute for him to come back down....

 

[RoyalBlood]

OMG Thank you so much ^__^ I'll update tomorrow Pushy brother + Psycho parents = >_>

Keep on the Wario discussion ;o

 

[Mocha19]

This is another fun match that I liked whenever I played. I used to think Zelda had the advantage, but then Dr. Mario Guy ***** my *** at HOBO 11. Very good Wario. I think it's pretty even and just depends on how well one player can read the other. Stage should probably be Luigi's..

 

[MorphedChaos]

Yes to Luigis, It messes up Wario's Airgame, DO NOT pick ANYTHING with a slant unless you have a death wish, and FD +BF are very good stages for Wario. Halberd is decent for Wario to, as he can get a grounded Uclap from half the stage, and whats really interesting, a Dthrow infinite on Zelda on one very special part of Halberd. (Its the same place as the Halberd Infinite, but its very very hard to get the positioning, and Zelda can escape around 82%)

It might not be an infinite, but it looked like it to me, as I could constantly regrab Zelda. Even Boost to a Fsmash or Waft. (Don't rely on it at all though.)

Luigi's is the best stage for Zelda, do anything else, and Wario has you, besides maybe Norfar, but then I don't play Norfar enough to know the matchup there.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I'd say zelda has a slight advantage

 

[Kataefi]

I think it's her priority that ultimately wins out, but Wario is a tricky tricky customer. I love fighting him! If he can bait that USmash and then move in for the kill, he'll have an easier time.

I would say slight advantage to Zelda at best, but Wario can very easily turn it around. Can I update 55:45 for my chart for now guys? Or is it too early? It's always subject to change ^^

 

[DMG]

I'd say zelda has a slight advantage

Lol I posted a ton of insight and you say Zelda has the advantage in 1 sentence? Lol.

K Fiction U got my attention. I'm listening. Why does she have the advantage?

Although for me I would push this as either 50:50 or 55:55 Wario. The Stages are usually better for Wario as well, but that's minor.

 

[Kataefi]

Royal I've added an in depth summary about king dedede so link that when you do his writeup! Also... I'll do ness next and just try and go into more detail with what you said! (but I don't really know the matchup that well. I try and get someone to write it in more depth)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

man.. I'm far too busy and far to tired to write much about this matchup for now. But I know that everal of my friends play wario and they now REFUSE to play wario against my zelda. they say it's not even fun anymore because she's so freaking annoying for them to fight with him.

the tactics they normally use just plain don't work. they can't poke because of her massive range, they can't bike against her because she has so many options for beating it. aerial approaches tend to get beaten by usmash unless they baited something.

Wario HAS kill moves, but he shouldn't be getting in a position to use them near as often. they normally rely on getting out an Fsmash whenever they are close, but that gets beaten out bu Zelda's Dsmash and it has less range than most of her repetoir if she's spacing well.

Essentially, if he's not inside her head and baiting mistakes, he doesn't win. his range is SO bad compared to zeldas that it's not funny. he's got aerial mobility, and all around better aerials, but they don't have much range, so he really doesn't have portection from zelda's aerial game either. wario's uair is something I wouldn't take my dair against, but wario's other aerials aren't frightening enough to stop me from trading a lighning kick with them... or winning out with a uair.

Wario is extremely vulnerable to grab releases. I can normally follow up with an easy lightning kick, or fake out into some kind of smash.

his bike approach is normally reliable, but not against zelda. we beat it in a variety of ways and can beat it out just as easily when he's recovering with it.

his chomp is NOT threatening given zelda's range and disjoints, she can knock him out of it with no problem.

wario's heavy, but zelda wracks up damage quite satisfactorily and KOs respectably well given grab release lightning kicks or other lighting kicks..... or just by the virtue of half of her moveset being kill moves.


really I see this as 60:40 Zelda. no more than 65:35, but no way it's even.

(and that's a short post )

 

[PhantomX]

From what you described, the Warios you're playing are terrible. If their "usual tactics" involve biking and fsmash whenever they're close, they're far from being good.

And you can bite Zelda out of anything that isn't uptilt/upsmash/upair. I've eaten midair lightning kicks and nairs. I say go ahead and edit it to be 55:45 Zelda. DMG says otherwise, but he tends to forget that he's just better than almost everyone else around here, lol.

 

[MorphedChaos]

From what you described, the Warios you're playing are terrible. If their "usual tactics" involve biking and fsmash whenever they're close, they're far from being good.

And you can bite Zelda out of anything that isn't uptilt/upsmash/upair. I've eaten midair lightning kicks and nairs. I say go ahead and edit it to be 55:45 Zelda. DMG says otherwise, but he tends to forget that he's just better than almost everyone else around here, lol.

Well, if we go by Yuna's definition of Character charts, DMG is who we listen to, as character matchups are "At the height of the Metagame" (Hate yuna sooo much.) So I'd agree with DMG, 50:50

Oh, Question Zelda mainers, do you have a disadvantage to anyone?

 

[GreyFox86]

Lol hey PhantomX we should play before FS5.

And I've played against decent Wario's and won half of the time.

His bike and bite aren't that big of a problem to get around. I find his Nair to be annoying. But other than that, I would say 60:40 Zelda

EDIT: @Chaos: In terms of characters, it would be Olimar, G&W, and Marth.

 

[Takumaru]

Olimar, G&W, Toon link... a few others that slip my mind at the moment. But about biting her out of lighting kicks, I don't think you can bite her out of B-air because it's hit-box extends well outside of her foot.

Question for you wario players: don't the invincibility frames on fsmash make it easier to kill zelda? Yeah it's easy for us to say that if zelda spaces right he shouldn't get close enough but his fsmash will break through anything zelda can throw out as long as he starts it before she starts her attack. I could be wrong though.

 

[Mocha19]

I don't know.. DMG's Wario = pretty **** scary.. I'd go with him on this one.. Crazy DI ftw on Wario's part. He really knows what he's talking about. 50:50 if you ask me.

And GreyFox, I've noticed you have Sudai under your money match list and I talked to him about it, but he doesn't remember making that deal with you.. Should there be something I should remind him of for you? LOL..

EDIT: Snake can also be pretty bad for Zelda. And I guess we haven't discussed Lucas enough, but I've never had a problem with him before, so I don't think him. DK can sometimes be a hassle.

 

[PhantomX]

DMG may be at the height of the metagame, but are there any Zeldas that measure up to him? That's where the innate problem of taking his word at face value lies.

And relying on our super armor frames is not something we can do, as it's near impossible to time it. Sure they help from time to time, as do any invince/SA frames, lol.

Greyfox, we're playing like, as soon as I get there, I'll be hungry for lunch (j/k XD) [what Warios have you vsed?]

You may be right about bair... but I'm usually not attempting to bite a retreating Zelda, so I can't really tell you, lol.

 

[DMG]

And you can bite Zelda out of anything that isn't uptilt/upsmash/upair. I've eaten midair lightning kicks and nairs. I say go ahead and edit it to be 55:45 Zelda. DMG says otherwise, but he tends to forget that he's just better than almost everyone else around here, lol.

Yeah I've chomped some funny stuff on Zelda, but it's more like abusing grab priority the Chomp has so that it trades hits with the Lightning Kick close up.

Question for you wario players: don't the invincibility frames on fsmash make it easier to kill zelda? Yeah it's easy for us to say that if zelda spaces right he shouldn't get close enough but his fsmash will break through anything zelda can throw out as long as he starts it before she starts her attack. I could be wrong though.

It's not invincibility frames, just Super Armor. What it can do though is go through any of Zelda's moves as long as his Super Armor frames match up when he get's hit. If he hits her sooner than she attacks, then he just beats her out like any regular move. If he gets hit at the right time, he will take Zelda's attack and then pretty much counter it with Fsmash.

I don't know.. DMG's Wario = pretty **** scary.. I'd go with him on this one.. Crazy DI ftw on Wario's part. He really knows what he's talking about. 50:50 if you ask me.

Ty, but you forgot about my rampant/trademark airdodging lol.

 

[Mocha19]

Ty, but you forgot about my rampant/trademark airdodging lol.

Oh gosh how could I forget? I swear you can airdodge through all of the Usmash hits. So crazy.. lol

 

[NinjaLink]

DMG may be at the height of the metagame, but are there any Zeldas that measure up to him? That's where the innate problem of taking his word at face value lies.

DM and Myself are willing to take that challenge

 

[MrEh]

DM and Myself are willing to take that challenge

Played DM again today. He's still totally crazy with Zelda.

But yeah, DM is ****.

 

[MorphedChaos]

DMG, I need to VS you sometime so I can learn how to be better with Wario, just lost to a TL over and over (got him down to about late 70s in his last stock before I died though.) Need to learn the airdodge more XD.

 

[Sudai]

GreyFox, I had our MM written down so it's all good. XD

There's a reason I write them down.

Shut up, yes I search my name.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well, if we go by Yuna's definition of Character charts, DMG is who we listen to, as character matchups are "At the height of the Metagame" (Hate yuna sooo much.) So I'd agree with DMG, 50:50

Oh, Question Zelda mainers, do you have a disadvantage to anyone?

well of course, and no they don't bike when they are close. and, no, I don't think that's how the normal matchup would go. They are not BAD warios either. they might not be the best, but they aren't bad and the matchup plays for me like 80:20 so I'd assume it can't be THAT different overall.

plain and simple zelda just beats out most of what wario can do. Wario really doesn't have any of the qualities that normally scare zelda.


as for whether or not zelda has bad matchups,

Game and Watch, Toon Link, Olimar, Peach, Marth, Snake, Meta Knight, Ike and Wolf come to mind (though Ike and Wolf aren't really all that terrible)

She does have bad matchups, wario just isn't one of them. 9 disadvanataged matchups in a cast of mid 30s seems pretty reasonable too.

 

[MorphedChaos]

well of course, and no they don't bike when they are close. and, no, I don't think that's how the normal matchup would go. They are not BAD warios either. they might not be the best, but they aren't bad and the matchup plays for me like 80:20 so I'd assume it can't be THAT different overall.

plain and simple zelda just beats out most of what wario can do. Wario really doesn't have any of the qualities that normally scare zelda.


as for whether or not zelda has bad matchups,

Game and Watch, Toon Link, Olimar, Peach, Marth, Snake, Meta Knight, Ike and Wolf come to mind (though Ike and Wolf aren't really all that terrible)

She does have bad matchups, wario just isn't one of them. 9 disadvanataged matchups in a cast of mid 30s seems pretty reasonable too.

Go fight DMG and come back and say Zelda has an advantage , he will rock your world big time.

 

[Kataefi]

But I've heard DMG is amazing - is this a testament to his skill or Wario's? If he were to use Zelda equally as good how would the matchup play?

I would be down with 50:50 - but I think Zelda has the priority to actually stop the majority of his approaches, and she may eventually get a grab release in there, so at best in the matchup it could be 55:45 Zelda

 

[NinjaLink]

Go fight DMG and come back and say Zelda has an advantage , he will rock your world big time.

I think ur meatridin a bit too much :-\


Sorry that theres not many good zeldas and i dont recall any being in texas that i kno of.

 

[Mocha19]

But I've heard DMG is amazing - is this a testament to his skill or Wario's? If he were to use Zelda equally as good how would the matchup play?

I would be down with 50:50 - but I think Zelda has the priority to actually stop the majority of his approaches, and she may eventually get a grab release in there, so at best in the matchup it could be 55:45 Zelda

Understatement. He's more than amazing. He's ********. I thought I fought good Wario's before, but not until I met him. He knows how to read opponents really well. I tried to use her priority a lot when we fought, but Wario's air momentum is so fast that with his crazy DI and airdodging all over the place, I really just couldn't reach him. I definitely got a few grab releases on him, but other than that he was still able to punish a lot of what I was trying to accomplish. When it comes to pinacle of Metagames, a better Zelda would be able to think better and be able to punish those approaches more, but in all respect I think Wario has potential to be too fast for Zelda to be able to keep up with sometimes.

@Ninjalink : At HOBO11, I was the only Zelda there.. =D

EDIT: I know I'm not the best Zelda out here, but I do believe I know her a lot though to know quite a few of her matchups. We definitely need more people to try out this. It could be that we don't have enough good matches with each other.

 

[PhantomX]

NL vs DMG would be amazing. Come down to one of our tournaments using all your tourney winnings, NL