Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[powuh_of_PIE]

Does Diddys sideB go through Zelda's reflector?

I think there's a small window between the invincibility frames and the active frames in which he can go straight in, as well as anything above a certain plane goes right over the hitboxes.

 

[Kataefi]

Yes it can. What pie said

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

nayru's doesn't have much verticle range. if he's high enough it's not even hard to go through it.

 

[Bandit]

If you want to counterpick Diddy, then take him to Norfair. There is no Diddy that wants to play there at all. If you really don't like that, then Brinstar would be another choice. Any place with an uneven ground or several platforms is good. Battlefield is decent, but you would rather him be above you and not the other way around.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Battlefield is good for Diddy, imo.

The close(for a neutral) borders make KO'ing a bit easier and the platforms aren't that bad for the banana game. Yoshi's Island, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise and Lylat are his worst stages more than likey.

Naryu's is good if he's glidetosing into you, but he can Glide Toss > DA and catch the reflected banana and than your doing your laggy reflector and leaving yourself open.

Battlefield is a better stage for Zelda than it is for Diddy though. That much is true.

 

[Bandit]

Diddy is one of those characters that his recovery has only a few options. I completely forgot about rainbow cruise since I try to stay away from it as Zelda. It just seems to hurt me more than anyone else, but with practice, it could be pretty wicked to a character like Diddy.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Raimbow cruise sounds like it could be valiable CP, since it´s always moving and hitting Diddy while he´s charging his ^B could potentially cause a KO... But is it better stage than Norfair or Lylat for example?

 

[Kataefi]

Don't pick Lylat, Diddy can still combo very well there.
Norfair on the other hand is very good!

 

[Bandit]

I don't like Lylat for Zelda. With the stage constantly leaning back and forth, it could lead to some awful recoveries or easy gimps. I think it gives a long plane for Diddy to work with that could allow for him to setup bananas even if he doesn't use them in the normal fashion. Norfair and Rainbow Cruise take bananas nearly out of the equation forcing him to take on Zelda head-on, and we all know how much we want that.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I agree, Lylat could potentially KO Diddy by leaning, but it´s still too good for him. So which is better, Norfair or RC? Cruise stops bananas, but on the other hand Zelda may die unexpected there too. Norfair is just generally better for Zelda than it is to Diddy.

I´d say Norfair is better because it´s easier to kill there, but I´m not too sure.

 

[Kataefi]

What's great is that Diddy needs to take a complete turn in his gameplay style on those stages counterpicked against him, whereas Zelda still fares slightly well on stages counterpicked against her, especially when Sheik's involved. She's very hard to counterpick.

Btw, what is everyone agreeing to regarding the matchup score? I'm saying 55:45 either way, but I'm just not 100% sure yet... I need convincing!

 

[Bandit]

Take Diddy to Norfair under any circumstances unless they ban it. Then you can think about RC.

I would put this favoring Zelda. Anytime Zelda is able to be on a different plane or an uneven plane (which is every stage but FD and to some extent Smashville so just ban FD) she is at an advantage. Diddy's game revolves around the use of the bananas, and once they are taken out, Zelda has a great advantage. I'm going to say 55:45 or 60:40 Zelda.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I also think that it´s Zelda´s advantage. 45:55 sounds good to me since Zelda can defend herself very well when fighting on the ground and Diddy can´t juggle her too well to keep her airborne constantly.

Although in the name of truth I must say that I haven´t fought any real good Diddys, so I might be wrong.

 

[Kataefi]

Definitely not 60:40 Zelda. I could say 55:45, but is that character bias because I main her? There are times when I do really well against Diddy and really badly against him, and it's never consistently one or the other. That's what makes me think 50:50 in my experience, but I don't think that's objective enough.

 

[GodAtHand]

I would say 60-40 Zelda, but I will give a better more educated percentage tomorrow night.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I would say 55:45 Zelda, the momentum shifts pretty dramatically when fighting a Diddy, so either you're owning hard or getting *****. Zelda's **** is harder, but Diddy ***** longer. In the end, though, Zelda's **** cycle offers more kill chances, so I'd give the nod to her.

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

Same here, because Diddy can't abuse his projectiles(not saying nut launcher) while Zelda can and can even reflect his projectiles with nayru's love. She can glide toss his bananas into a smash.

 

[PK-ow!]

In the end, though, Zelda's **** cycle offers more kill chances, so I'd give the nod to her.

Sigged.

I'm with taking Diddy to Norfair over Rainbow Cruise. On Cruise he can still himself randomly gimp you when the ground is unfriendly. Norfair's lava favours star KOs and the whole stage isn't given to combos or move strings.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'll give zelda maybe 55:45 but no more.

as for stages:
-Battlefield and Norfair seem best
(diddy's banana game is pretty MEH on BF and he gains little to no other advantages from it. not a bad stage for diddy, but a good one for zelda)
(norfair's the other way around, nothing special for zelda but bad for diddy.)

Raibow cruise and lylat are bad for both of us, yoshi's island and smashville are pretty neutral. FD is better for diddy and we BOTH play well on luigi's mansion.

that's all I got for now

 

[deepseadiva]

IT IS TIME ZELDAS.

Peach is discussing Zelda for our weekly discussion. Feel free to teleport over.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178193&page=88

Along with counterpick discussion!
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194857

Current discussion says 50:50 with possible chance of 55:45 Peach's favor.

 

[GodAtHand]

My final answer is 55-45 Zelda. Nayru's really does work wonders in this battle and getting hold of the bananas is key, you can even hold them for a while just to stop him from getting another one out. And Zelda's glide toss is really good, she can't combo with the naners as well as diddy, but she can set up for a kill and basically make him very very scared.

Diddy's sideB seems like it can go through Nayru's when we tested it, so thats one thing Diddy has going for him especially if he fakes a banana through forcing a Nayru's and then sideB grabs. The grab worked better than the sideB kick. It really seemed to get through Nayru's quiet easily.

Again to repeat what has already been said, both characters have **** cycles and Zelda is just a better rapist. Zelda can live a lot longer in this battle than I initially suspected so that helps too.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Diddy's **** cycle is all different. IMO, Zelda just kills alot better. Good killing + Good Range and throw in a reflector for good measure.

She's tough, that's for **** sure. Stupid sparkly stuff...

Zelda can live a lot longer in this battle than I initially suspected so that helps too.

I've got to learn to save my kill moves.

 

[Kataefi]

Actually I've had a turn of heart as well. I really do think it's Zelda's advantage, possibly even as far as 60:40. I was playing some decent diddys and really knew how to take them on. Bananas can be reflected or spotdodged, I found spotdodging easier. Diddy normally threw the banana and dived straight in for a throw or attack. I'd spotdodge to nayru's to throw him off course, which worked wonders!

And yes he will kill you later if he doesn't save his kill moves, whereas Zelda never has to worry about killing. She'll kill him at far lower percents than vice versa. There recoveries are both highly telegraphed also, and Zelda gets a free din's on certain ocassions when he's recovering, possibly even a dair. If he's recovering high I'd be more aggressive edgeguarding.

So yeah I'm agreeing to 55:45 Zelda ^^

 

[Bandit]

I just would like everyone to know I am going to keep a shortlist of the match-ups in the Zelda Community Center.

Good work on the match-up thread so far. I am simply adding to features to the center and your thread is linked in there.

For Diddy, I said 55-45 or 60-40 and I would be very accepting of 55-45. As what has been said, this match-up is no pushover, but it seems to have the slight edge to Zelda.

I know the Diddy topic is coming to a close soon, so I would like to suggest we open up Dedede and Toon Link again to get a rating for the match-ups. I have read the toon link discussion, and it didn't really get too far, but I have a fair amount of experience against a solid toon link and would put the match-up at 60-40 Zelda. Hopefully at the next tourney I am going to (this saturday), I will be able to play Lobos to get his opinion on the match-up and face the best toon link in MD/VA.

As far as Dedede goes, while it his Bair is boss in this matchup, he has too many faults on the ground that Zelda can take advantage of to have the favor in this match. I put it at 55:45 Zelda as I had a recent experience against a Dedede mainer. I didn't lose a match though they were all really close. His biggest problem was once he got knocked off the stage that he had no way of safely getting back as I would challenge him off the stage or punish him if he recovered onto the stage.

Both of these match-ups lean towards Zelda, and I think the ratings should show this.

 

[Kataefi]

Definitely bandit! Good stuff so far!
Zelda definitely has a solid advantage against d3, simply because his base means of dealing damage (the chaingrab) is nullified via Zelda's weight and also his smashes just cannot compete with hers. Zelda's smashes have the knockback and damage of a heavy hitter but come out insanely fast. There's certainly other advantages too. I thought we all agreed to 60:40 back in the sheik thread.

I'm not too sure about TLink.
Also, I feel Zelda has a slight advantage over lucario and a larger one at that against Falco. We should discuss those in the higher tiers very soon! =D

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

to reopen my opinions on the matchups:

DDD v. Zelda: 60:40-65:35 Zelda's favour

Toon Link: 55:45-65:35 Toon Link's favour.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

to reopen my opinions on the matchups:

DDD v. Zelda: 60:40-65:35 Zelda's favour

Toon Link: 55:45-65:35 Toon Link's favour.

Zelda v. DDD 60-40
Zelda v. T.link (not experienced enough to judge)

 

[Bandit]

Toon Link Match-Up Board

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182155

There is another match-up thread but it hasn't been updated since June (and has toon link as an advantage in all but 2 match-ups in the game... yeah, I don't think so).

Their thread was leaning 60-40 Zelda.

Match-up #4: Princess Zelda

Character Overview:
Whilst her alter ego (Sheik) went from one of the best characters in Melee to bottom of mid tier in Brawl, Zelda received a significant boost that makes her the more usable of the Zelda/Sheik combination. Widely considered by many as one of the 'untapped' characters in Brawl, her powers lie in her Smashes and unique projectile in Din’s Fire.

Toon Link’s Advantages/Strategies
- Smash DI’ing out of her multi hit attacks is essential (Usmash, Fsmash are the main ones)
- Short hop airdodge Zelda’s Dins Fire. Of course be unpredictable with it, and cancel the dodge with zair when you begin to get in range
- Zair is your friend, especially when trying to approach, outrange and for general spacing
- Bair works great against Zelda, but it can get predictable. Mix it up with some Nair > Arrow Cancel action
- Predict her recovery and punish. Make sure to space it though, since it has a hitbox around her
- CP’s: Rainbow Cruise, Delfino Square and Lylat Cruise

Toon Link Disadvantages/What to look out for
- Use projectiles with caution, as Zelda can reflect them
- Zelda’s smashes seem to out prioritize and range your aerials (bar zair) and smashes, so be careful when trying to use them
- Zelda likes to use her Smashes out of shield and take advantage of their range and priority
- Zelda has way more kill power then TL and you are likely to die at lower percents
- Her aerials can all kill (except nair)
- Predict which moves she is likely to use, i.e. if you are above her, expect an Uair or Usmash. If you are to the side, expect a lightning kick, etc
- All of her "A" attacks KO at reasonable damages except Dtilt, Nair and Jab
- Dtilt can combo into other things
- Her Up-B has invincibility frames when she is Invisible
- Ban: Luigi’s Mansion (or else you’ll lose, seriously), Battlefield

Overall:
Zelda can stop Toon Link's projectile game, force you to approach and usually punish you for it. She has a plethora of kill moves at her disposable and TL dies so low it isn't funny. Zelda has the advantage 60:40

***

Again, the score seemed like the general consensus (or Sonic the Hedgedawgs, you decide)

I have to agree with this. Toon Link lacks the killing power to keep up with Zelda. He may be able to rack up damage well, but he still has to get inside to kill you and we are dominant when he comes in. The only one of his aerials you should be aware of is his Dair, but if you shield it (goes through Usmash) then you can punish him on the bounce.

 

[Kataefi]

I agree it's in Zelda's advantage. She outranges everything he has. His bair WoP doesn't work against her because of USmash. His smashes have terrible range in comparison to hers. She can dtilt lock him well which can ko him just over 100% if she combos into Utilt.

The only advantage I see TLink having is his projectile game, but most of which can be reflected easily. It's not like his projectiles are fast.

But I don't think I know enough about TLink to make a good assumption, and I understand he's a very solid character.. So I would lean more towards 55:45 Zelda.

But instead of talking about matchups like this we should focus on them one at a time ^^ I reckon we should clear up dedede finally, then toon link, and then move on to some others.

 

[Bandit]

I only kept talking TL because he was the only character people seem to be disagreeing on. Sonic is basing his numbers from TL off a WiFi match (which admittedly was laggy and therefore unusable in this instance) and one match against one of the best TL's in which he killed himself. Generally, it seems that most people have this in Zelda's favor.

With Dedede, I think it is just a matter of picking the number. I think we all agree it is in our favor, but how much so depends on the what the community thinks.

 

[GodAtHand]

We should probably declare Diddy's matchup over and start talking d3 now.

I haven't heard any apposing arguments to our slight advantage in that matchup, so either end it or perhaps I (or someone else) will go ask the Diddy mains what they think...

Edit: Actually they were already discussing and no one has said that they think it's Diddy's matchup. So someone make it official

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

... Sonic is basing his numbers from TL off a WiFi match (which admittedly was laggy and therefore unusable in this instance) and one match against one of the best TL's in which he killed himself...

well, at the time those were my most recent matches. since then and before then I have fought other toon links and I have no reason to change my thoughts about it. it's tough matchup for zelda. toon link might have to change up his game a little so that hecan get around zelda... but he can do it, and once he does zelda has less ability to get around that. Zelda's just not versitile enough to deal with TL very well if he knows what he's doing. Maybe my oponents are better than me and the matchup is really closer to even... but I can't see how this is zelda's advantage and certainly not 60:40.

DDD is too statistically good <_< I know we counter everything he does but he's so **** good stat wise that we might have to settle for 60:40 instead of 70:30

 

[Kataefi]

I'm going to be bold and say it's 65:35 against D3 simply because:

- Chaingrab doesn't work.
- Hard to rack up damage against Zelda because her ground game outspeeds his by a mile, has almost identical knockback with a stronger DSmash and USmash. He has a great grab no doubt, but she's very resilent to being grabbed in the first place with an amazing spotdodge to DSmash or Nayru's. Or she can FSmash to outrange his grab range and push him further back.
- His recovery kills him vs Zelda. LKs are easy to connect, Uairs are easy to connect, even Dairs are easier. His literally a sitting duck and it's Zelda's game to lose in this area of the matchup. Other way around, she's much harder to kill when recovering because of his awful air speed, his laggy aerials (minus bair), plus her invisibility frames to go through him. He might as well wait on the stage and FSmash, but it's so slow she can just about shield in time after the FW lag.
- Dedede is heavy, but LKs and Uair are heavy hitters. He'll be living to about 110-130% against Zelda, which is not what he's used to.
- Oh, and din's is actually useful for once. It goes through waddle dees, harasses Dedede like no other character (due to slow dash speed and aerial movement in general).

The only thing Dedede has on Zelda is his jab and ftilt. He can't go aerial because of USmash and Uair (which outprioritises his dair), and his bair wall of pain is nullified by a hypen USmash if she times it right.

I haven't played any American Dedede's, but I'm very confident in my ability to beat them over here ^^

EDIT: Also, I could settle for 70:30. It doesn't matter if D3's good stat wise, she counters everything he has and is far more likely to win if she plays her cards right. It's her game to lose.

 

[Kaffei]

I'm going to be bold and say it's 65:35 against D3 simply because:

- Chaingrab doesn't work.
- Hard to rack up damage against Zelda because her ground game outspeeds his by a mile, has almost identical knockback with a stronger DSmash and USmash. He has a great grab no doubt, but she's very resilent to being grabbed in the first place with an amazing spotdodge to DSmash or Nayru's. Or she can FSmash to outrange his grab range and push him further back.
- His recovery kills him vs Zelda. LKs are easy to connect, Uairs are easy to connect, even Dairs are easier. His literally a sitting duck and it's Zelda's game to lose in this area of the matchup. Other way around, she's much harder to kill when recovering because of his awful air speed, his laggy aerials (minus bair), plus her invisibility frames to go through him. He might as well wait on the stage and FSmash, but it's so slow she can just about shield in time after the FW lag.
- Dedede is heavy, but LKs and Uair are heavy hitters. He'll be living to about 110-130% against Zelda, which is not what he's used to.
- Oh, and din's is actually useful for once. It goes through waddle dees, harasses Dedede like no other character (due to slow dash speed and aerial movement in general).

The only thing Dedede has on Zelda is his jab and ftilt. He can't go aerial because of USmash and Uair (which outprioritises his dair), and his bair wall of pain is nullified by a hypen USmash if she times it right.

I haven't played any American Dedede's, but I'm very confident in my ability to beat them over here ^^

EDIT: Also, I could settle for 70:30. It doesn't matter if D3's good stat wise, she counters everything he has and is far more likely to win if she plays her cards right. It's her game to lose.

I know this is kind of off topic, but what are the cases for Ganon vs Zelda?

I know this person who plays a Ganon & he always beats me when I play Zelda. However, I beat him a few times with Toon Link.
Ganon's D-air is so annoying.. It can be 2comboed & deals MASSIVE damage, not to mention how easily it spikes.

Maybe I just suck? lol. @_@

 

[Kataefi]

If a Zelda really understands the matchup well, she should be able to beat him. I believe she's quite a good counter against him. Din's harasses him, she completely outprioritises, outspeeds and outranges him with FSmash, DSmash and Dtilt are faster than ALL of his moves.

Ganon is like a poor man's Ike with a few neat tricks, but if you really understand the matchup and space well, you can punish his ridiculously laggy and unsafe moves. =D

I think you're losing because you're underestimating? Or lack of matchup knowledge? Either way, whenever I face a Captain Falcon, Ganon or other lower tier character, I automatically assume I'm going to win, but that kind of attitude is what puts me at a close call with them, whereas with higher tiers, I feel I need to work harder and really push myself to space better and use better options. It's just matchup mentality... never hold back against a low tier just because they're low tier, because they can certainly surprise you.

 

[Kataefi]

Oops, double post. Ignore =)

 

[GodAtHand]

I know this is kind of off topic, but what are the cases for Ganon vs Zelda?

I know this person who plays a Ganon & he always beats me when I play Zelda. However, I beat him a few times with Toon Link.
Ganon's D-air is so annoying.. It can be 2comboed & deals MASSIVE damage, not to mention how easily it spikes.

Maybe I just suck? lol. @_@

We really haven't talked about that match-up, I think because everyone thinks its very heavily in Zelda's favor. Such a slow and rather large character shouldn't be a problem for Zelda.

every time he is going to side b you, you could lightning kick him if you are quick and precise, but a simple forward smash should stop him. Actually just about everything he does you should be able to stop him from doing with one or more of Zelda's moves. D-air is just something you shouldn't be getting hit by, at least not much. Shouldn't you be able to up-smash before he does that anyways? Unless you are recovering... which you could just make sure to recover high.

If its still difficult you have Sheik as a back-up.

 

[Kaffei]

If a Zelda really understands the matchup well, she should be able to beat him. I believe she's quite a good counter against him. Din's harasses him, she completely outprioritises, outspeeds and outranges him with FSmash, DSmash and Dtilt are faster than ALL of his moves.

Ganon is like a poor man's Ike with a few neat tricks, but if you really understand the matchup and space well, you can punish his ridiculously laggy and unsafe moves. =D

I think you're losing because you're underestimating? Or lack of matchup knowledge? Either way, whenever I face a Captain Falcon, Ganon or other lower tier character, I automatically assume I'm going to win, but that kind of attitude is what puts me at a close call with them, whereas with higher tiers, I feel I need to work harder and really push myself to space better and use better options. It's just matchup mentality... never hold back against a low tier just because they're low tier, because they can certainly surprise you.

Yeah, that totally happens to me. When I first fought him, I thought "this shouldn't be TOO hard." I was wrooooooooonnnnnnng. LOLOL.

There's one thing he does which lets him get very close to me: he bounces around dairing, but sometimes it's unpredictable, & I fall for it = die die die.

Does Zelda's Usmash > his dair when he's above me? The two moves I usually use to space myself are Dsmash & Nayru's, but those don't reach Ganon when his feet are right next to Zelda's boobs. >.>

 

[Kaffei]

The Ganon player also does a chain of side-Bs, & I don't know how to get out of them.
It's not like I can DI when I'm flat on the ground.
The only thing I found useful was mind gaming him so he would miss the side b.

By the way, I suck BAD with Shiek. T.T

 

[GodAtHand]

Well you have like... 4 options when getting up. Ground attack, roll left, roll right, or stand. Just make sure to not be predictable.