Zelda doubles -what can team Zelda + ____ do? (Update notice, now discussing G&W!)

[Half-Split Soul]

I agree with the statement that this team is better played passive. Anyone who's fought a good Pit knows how annoying it is to get past his arrows alone, not to mention that he has fast attacks with enough knockback to reset the spacing. Combine this with Zelda's good smashes and strong moveset and it's very hard to get close to the two, yet alone to stay there.

However, if either one of the characters gets sent away from the other one it's very hard for them to get the momentum back on their side again. They can't support each other nearly as well as many other characters can and neither of them has enough reliable approaches to get past enemies and back to the side of their teammate.

This is why I find this team to be quite easy to crack: it relies heavily on its camping game and once enemies get past that they can effectively keep Pit and Zelda separated and concentrate on fighting them one-by-one in a close range. As neither of the two is well versed for constant close combat situations this basically means they'll be juggled around the stage until they die.

And before I forget, keep in mind that Pit will have problems with MK, G&W, Marth, Wario, Kirby, Olimar, and a bit of Falco, TL, and ROB.

The highlighted ones alone make this team very unreliable, as they're pretty common characters and can alone potentially destroy both Zelda and Pit.



Why isn't there more discussion?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Apologies for the double post but otherwise no-one would notice the update.

Since Pit hasn't gotten any more discussion we're moving on and will come back to him later if need arises. The next character is Captain Falcon who hopefully gets some discussion going on. I'll also invite them to help.

*Goes to inform CF boards*

Edit: Mario summary is also up.

 

[Player-3]

dthrow > lightning kick

nuff said

 

[-Mars-]

I could imagine some pretty cool things off the top of my head. Like say Zelda uses usmash and has both of your opponents trapped in it. I wonder if usmash has a long enough duration for Falcon to get off a Pawnch? In fact Zelda has a lot of long duration moves that might be able to lead into some Pawnches.

Only bad thing about this team is that Zelda isn't a great offensive character and Falcon isn't either. I suppose Zelda could support with Dins a little but this particular team doesn't really strike me as anything exceptional.

 

[Player-3]

maybe on bf or something with a platform, and zelda catches them under it

also falcon is a good offensive character if he can get a hit in... falcons worst problem is getting the hit in and not just getting swatted away

 

[KayLo!]

falcons worst problem is getting the hit in and not just getting swatted away

Uhh, I think another glaring problem is his complete lack of priority and the fact that he falls so fast.... x.o He gets CG'd/combo'd by everything, lol.

Anyway, I'd imagine this team is pretty balls, but I've never played it, so I can't really contribute.

 

[Zeallyx]

Why would you team up with captain falcon in brawl.



Zelda in teams - what can she do when paired with ____? (Discussing Captain Falcon)

Pro's:
-Falcons speed yadayada. Zelda slower yada falcon balances the team yada
- Falcon's throws are good for grab shenanigans
- Falcon can gimp well. Zelda gets the opponent offstage-->falcon gimp = kinda legit I guess.

Cons:
- Falcons overal moveset is lacking. His moves can be shown slightly better in team play than in singles, however, but his moveset is still not good enough to be a legit teammate.
As there are characters with better movesets (MK, snake, DDD, falco, GaW, Wario, and the rest of the brawl cast except ganon), which will be better teammates, Falcon just doesn't cut it as a teammate.

 

[Player-3]

Uhh, I think another glaring problem is his complete lack of priority and the fact that he falls so fast.... x.o He gets CG'd/combo'd by everything, lol.

Anyway, I'd imagine this team is pretty balls, but I've never played it, so I can't really contribute.

its definently his WORST problem, i didnt say it wasnt his only bad problem
;P

his utilt has crazy priority... but its slow and laggy

so zelda usmash > knee, or usmash > stomp > usmash > knee
;D

 

[Darky-Sama]

Falcon is actually a great partner for Zelda from my current knowledge and experience.

Zelda's biggest flaw is getting punished, where having a Captain as a partner can easily prevent punishment. Zelda is a terror on the field with high kill potential, a controlled projectile and considerable priority. Where she has many advantages, her recovery, speed and laggy attacks give her trouble when it comes to punishment.

Captain Falcon (in contrast) has lagless attacks, high mobility on both the ground and in the air, and he can easily come to a Zelda user's aid whenever it's possible that she could be punished. In teams, the way I see it, Captain Falcon is a character that should play the role of the "Get the **** off my partner" support character. He should be prepared to help Zelda if shes about to be punished, and ready to follow up whatever attack she performs with an aerial.

Luckily, thanks to the Captain's great mobility, that isn't much of a problem to do every now and then once he pressures the opponent he's focusing on far enough away.


Another note, they both have excellent Knee of Justice // Critical Heel set-ups with their down throws as well, considering it doesn't provide much knockback like other attacks in their moveset.

 

[Jtails]

Ness/Lucas and Zelda. my original doubles partner dmt have gotten top 3's and top 8's at many tournaments in NY using this combination. dins fire heals while hurting opponents from a safe distance.
Lucas and Ness deal great damage to compliment zelda. killing mk's isnt too hard either. B throw, or up smash.

sorry for being off topic. lolz i guess falcon is cool.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Anyway, I'd imagine this team is pretty balls, but I've never played it, so I can't really contribute.

From my experiences it's not actually as horrible as you'd think. Of course it'll get completely wrecked by any of the higher tier characters but in low tiers it can actually hold its own against many other teams.

Other than what Darky-Sama already said this team actually has quite a lot killing power in its posession. They both have powerful sweetspotted aerials and spikes (Falcon's is actually useful too), smash attacks with considerable knockback and some other finishers in their arsenal (yes, I'm talking about Falcon Punch).

This team also has a pretty good spacing game with Falcon's speed and Zelda's spacing tools.


However, I'm thinking about the stages. To efficiently work together they'd need rather much space and something to help get around Falcon's bad priority and Zelda's weaknesses. With these limitations, how many actual counterpicks would there be, if any?

 

[zeldspazz]

What do you know, I just finished my doubles highlight vid. Perhaps take a look and comment on the practicality of some of the combos? Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOFD3DICWco

I know there's more than just Zelda, and I apologize for that. Seriously though, who needs MK when you have a Falcon Pawnch?

Isnt this a video of how awesome a good Zelda and good Captain Falcon can work together?

Usmash->knee seems to happen a lot.

 

[DTP]

I've decided to start using Zelda more at tournies now. Zelda used to be my star doubles character and I kinda miss it xD

 

[Darky-Sama]

Zelda's moderate Dtilt Lock also proves valuable for setting up a quick smash attack from Captain Falcon, or even a well spaced Falcon Punch- - just so Zelda doesn't get hit as well. This team has a lot of potential, it just all relies if the Falcon knows how to follow up and punish with accurate timing.

Quite a few times, me and my partner have even pulled off a Dtilt Lock -> Raptor Boost -> Critical Heel FAIR. Strict on timing, however. Zelda has to be going into the air by the time Falcon's Raptor Boost is lifting the opponent out of their grounded state. Again, somewhat situational, but it's not necessarily hard to perform if you have the timing down.

Now, the biggest factor here that I forgot to mention in the above post is Zelda is more of a ground based character, where Falcon owns the air. If Zelda was to pressure an opponent off the stage (unless the opponent is within spiking range), Captain Falcon should be the one to "ALWAYS" go off the stage to punish recoveries.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

So, should we move on or is someone still going to post about Falcon? I don't want this thread to be needlessly waiting for posts that'll never be posted.

 

[zeldspazz]

I wouldnt mind moving on. Its your call really though.

 

[Darkmusician]

Can we get back to discussing S or A tier partners?

 

[KayLo!]

Can we get back to discussing S or A tier partners?

I think the focus switched to low tiers since Zelda's really more suited for low tier tournaments.

Just a shot in the dark, though, I could be wrong. I just know if I mained a top/high tier (ohwaitido), I..... would not want Zelda as a doubles partner, lol. People always force me to go Pikachu. *cries*

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Can we get back to discussing S or A tier partners?

Sure thing, we'll need to talk about every character at some point anyway. The order we do that doesn't really matter to me, its much more important to focus on analyzing the teams well.

Also, in case anyone was wondering, I'll try to find enough time this weekend to write more summaries and organize the OPs into more readable and clear form.

The next character is the very top of tier list, the almighty Metaknight. Discussion go!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

it's a brilliant team. I hate to admit it, but it is.

metaknight wracks damage like a mofo and is fast enough to keep foes focused on him so they'll often be forced into zelda's smashes, aerials or Din's.

Zelda's kill power is so extreme that, once MK has put much damage on enemies at all, Zelda can finish them easily. And MK should gve pause to anyone trying to edgeguard you, lest they get edgeguarded themselves.

it's a VERY good team.

I played it once in friendlies with Inui and we went undefeated. it wasn't even close. I also think Zelda got every kill just because she's so f***ing strong.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If he is doing nado you can din. Same with the Side B move and it wont interrupt his move.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Character Roles:

Zelda: Stock Tanking. Punishing opponent if Meta Knight gets locked.

Meta Knight: Everything else.


Any objections?

Nah, I'm just kidding. That would make things too easy.

 

[Kataefi]

I think it was snakeee who told me on the chat about a trick where MK can scoop everyone up in the tornado and Zelda can simply din's at it to get everyone inside. MK should go unharmed.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I think it was snakeee who told me on the chat about a trick where MK can scoop everyone up in the tornado and Zelda can simply din's at it to get everyone inside. MK should go unharmed.

Thats correct.
Space Din's Fire above the tornado where people are locked, they get harmed. Meta Knight doesn't. Or there's a part of the tornado you can hit that injures them, but Meta Knight's tornado gets canceled without him taking damage. It's a very useful strategy.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I actually normally let Inui just smash attack me along with my foe when I was zelda. it normally put us both right next to each other in the air and Zelda always managed to get a power aerial for the finish.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I actually normally let Inui just smash attack me along with my foe when I was zelda. it normally put us both right next to each other in the air and Zelda always managed to get a power aerial for the finish.

You've gotta be careful what character you're being smashed into the air with though. If it's someone like Luigi, whipping out a Critical Heel before a Neutral Air is pretty much a shot in the dark.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

that much is true.

I think it was normally space animals.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Yeah, Space Animals, you shouldn't have as much trouble hitting around. Fox's neutral air, maybe. But I don't see many people using his neutral air for DI purposes.

 

[TKD]

Zelda is very fun to team with. Zelda can camp behind MK, while MK tries to keep people away from her so she can >B the opposing team. If someone gets through MK, Zelda can just hit them. Maybe MK can bthrow into Zelda's utilt if they're close...in short, Zelda camps and MK attacks or keeps people away from her.

The point is that Zelda+MK is very fun and probably my favorite team, but I don't know if it works.

 

[Darky-Sama]

TKD is right.

Zelda should be a supportive punisher that racks up damage while Meta Knight keeps the opponents off of her with his wall of priority. Zelda isn't completely helpless herself since she has so much priority and situational attacks if anyone gets close to her, so it's really a fairly decent team. Each can hold their own, even though Meta Knight should be the most offensive character, while Zelda is a stock tanker and projectile punisher.

Also, has anyone else ever noticed how well Meta Knights do on teams when they feel like they should be defending their partner? It makes it feel more like a three on one because the Meta Knight goes all out to keep their partner safe. Most Meta Knight's get completely loco on ya.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Okay, stage tactics! Would it be better to support the neutral stages so that MK can... well be MK without interruptions or would the better idea be to go into the CP stages to make use of stage hazards?

I personally support going to neutrals as Zelda isn't the most adapting character making her have a hard time on many CP stages. I also think this team is strong enough to survive relying purely on its own strenghts.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

neutrals are definitely best. Though CPs with limited gimmicks work well too.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I would say... a stage like Halberd or Smashville would be good. You'll want the stage to be medium sized so Zelda can stay away, while Meta Knight can be in the crossfire. You wouldn't want to be too far away from the Meta Knight in case you need to assist or punish, but Zelda shouldn't be right in the middle of it all either.


Battle Halberd would keep Zelda alternating between the part of the stage that flies around the Halberd itself, and on when they you actually land on the ship about 45 seconds to a minute into the stage. When you reach that area, Zelda should have the freedom and mobility to go where she pleases. Until then, Zelda could keep opponents at bay with smash attacks and other forms of offense while Meta Knight does his own thing at racking up damage on the opponents.

Smashville. Speaks for itself. A flat stage, one platform. Meta Knight has the freedom he needs, Zelda has her own. It isn't difficult for a Meta Knight to control ANY stage, and since this one has a formidable air space, Meta Knight can own there.

Final Destination, well... if you want to rely solely on Meta Knight. That's his perfect stage. No platforms, flat area. Head-to-head Meta Knight ****** action and awesome air space. Zelda can easily punish with Din's Fire and own characters as they recover with her aerials. Faroe's Wind helps her get around a large stage like Final Destination without getting in Meta Knight's way too. Always a good stage if you have MK as your partner.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

It's starting to look we're done with MK. I'll update this soon and then edit this post.

Edit: Our next discussion will be about G&W. Feel free to start whenever you're ready.

So, bucket anyone?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Battle Halberd .

what stage is that?

So, bucket anyone?

w/ 3 side orders of well casted firballs.

wouldn't Zelda be stock tank again so G@W can eat all her firballs? also G@W can assist zelda on recovery if hes nearby w/o an accidental "lol oops, you died." i haven't played with this team for a long time though.

 

[Darky-Sama]

BATTLESHIP HALBERD*.

My bad, I hadn't slept at all when I posted that stuff. Typos.


But the G&W discussion next? Great.
This one should be interesting.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

buckets of glory?

 

[Darky-Sama]

Bucket + Din's Fire = Win.
Zelda's Upsmash -> G&W Side+B = Win.
Two characters with decent - high killing potential = Win.

Team "I have a Neutral Air and C-stick" is pretty pro, amirite?

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

I'm SURE I'll be the first person to mention this, but, Fireball + Bucket = Win,
Blatantly obvious suggestion aside, G&W is my main & Zelda is one of my secondaries, so, I have a pretty good idea of what these two can do together.

G&W Makes a generally good teammate for everyone, but he is a good match for Zelda. The main job of the G&W player though, would have to be keeping Zelda from getting doubleteamed. The most important thing this team would need to work out is making sure that G&W catches all the fireballs and doesn't get exploded by them.

1) Zelda Side B > G&W Down B (Obvious tactic is obvious)
2) G&W Nair > Zelda Bair/Fair G&W catches them in a disjointed hitbox above himself and racks up damage while Zelda delivers the kill.
3) Zelda Dtilt > G&W Bucket/Judgment/Fsmash/Usmash/Dsmash (Zelda Trips them, G&W takes immediate advantage of it)
4) Zelda Dtilt > G&W Bair > Zelda Dtilt > G&W Bair (Testing needed) (Theoretically, could trap them in a damage racking combo, but... unsure if it works. I need to find another competent local Zelda/G&W to test it.)
5) Zelda Usmash > G&W Bair (Damage racking says "Hi.")
6) G&W Uair on a helpless opponent > Zelda Fair/Bair/Uair (G&W can keep a helpless opponent off the stage indeffinately with his Uair, and, if he knows what he's doing, keep them generally stationary.)
7) G&W Uair momentum cancel protecting Zelda from getting knocked off the stage (The puff stops horizontal momentum.)
8_) G&W Up B to reset Zelda's Up B in the event a ledge guard. (G&W can usually return safely with just his up B. This runs the risk of stage spiking the Zelda though, but hey, you were dead anyways.)
9) Zelda Fsmash > G&W Usmash (This might not kill only fatties, or, people on Jungle Japes)
10) Zelda Dsmash > G&W anysmash (Zelda Knocks them towards G&W, G&W ends them)
11) G&W B to reset failed Zelda recovery (Sausage is tasty and deals very little damage and will reset the Up B)
12) G&W Nair > Zelda Side B (G&W catches them in the fish bowl and then pulls out the bucket before Din's Fire goes off)

On the downside of this team though, we've got the fact that both of these characters are light. Game & Watch is VERY light, he's hardly above "Puffball" light. Bucket Breaking helps this lightness, but, an important thing to note: He can't bucket break with a full bucket. If G&W gets in the way of Zelda's smashes, or vice versa, expect someone to go flying.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

4) Zelda Dtilt > G&W Bair > Zelda Dtilt > G&W Bair (Testing needed) (Theoretically, could trap them in a damage racking combo, but... unsure if it works. I need to find another competent local Zelda/G&W to test it.)

That doesn't really work because they can just SDI out of G&W's Bair, even though there's still a chance you can U-smash them with Zelda to end the combo.



What do you think about the stages? This team consists, as stated, from two very light characters with good killing potential so which one should you focus on: big or small stages? The advantage of favoring the big stages would be to make them live longer, especially G&W with his bucket braking. On the other hand, small stages would give them earlier kills and possibly help them achive victory before getting killed themselves. Would this be a risk worth taking?