Zelda doubles -what can team Zelda + ____ do? (Update notice, now discussing G&W!)

[MrEh]

I'm sorry, but I do know what I'm talking about.

No you don't. I've commented on your post already. Far from nitpicking, your post is filled with lots of statements that are completely untrue.

Why do you even comment on these boards if you think all the characters being discussed are terrible?

Because what's being said is flat out wrong, and I am correcting errors. By your logic, no one should bother posting in the Ganon boards, since Ganon is "terrible."

And a character doesn't have to run into Bullet Seed to get *****.

Yes they do. Ivysaur doesn't **** in any other way.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to hit someone with it.

It's very easy to hit someone with it. Provided they run into you.

And Squirtle does have an amazing aerial game and he can easily combo his moves to rack up damage very quickly.

This is Brawl.

but Charizard is also an offensive powerhouse who can go head to head with Bowser.

That's not a big accomplishment. The fact that Charizard goes EVEN with Bowser shows how bad he is.

He even has an advantage against him

Care to explain?

You say he's bad, so why would you bother playing as him.

Has it occurred to you that people might use characters not because of how good they are, but because they actually like them?

Plus, you must have never seen a PT used properly to make the statements you do about him.

Reflex is good. Pokemon Trainer is not.

But enough. I think it's obvious that neither you nor I will get either of us to change our minds, so we should be mature and end this to let other people give their opinions

My goal isn't to change your mind. I saw mistakes, and I corrected them. It's not good to have misleading information you see. New players might start thinking that PT is actually good.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

When I saw that the last post here was MrEh's (whose new colour is very stylish BTW) I knew that I'd meet either extreme trolling or an argument. It seems it was the latter this time.

I agree and disagree with some points from both of you but let's cut it here. It was good discussion but I have a feeling that it won't give us any more profit if taken further.

 

[Bestiarius]

Sorry, somehow my computer let us post this twice.
At MrEH: Ok, you saw errors in description I made, but let me answer some of the comments you put on my last / this post. I wasn't saying Charizard was as good as Bowser. I was saying his moves can match Bowser's in the area of power. He's strong enough to fight Bowser head-on, rather than, say, hit-and-run over and over like Sonic. You may disagree, but that's fine. We each have a right to our own opinions.

When I said Charizard has an advantage over Bowser, I was stating the matchup results that appear to be agreed upon. There is a matchup discussion on the PT boards about this (and probably on the Bowser boards, too). In fact, at this moment, for no apparent reason, there is a thread devoted to just this matchup and is somewhere around 3 pages long, and it's not part of the stickied matchup thread. I'm surprised it wasn't closed the minute it opened. I think PT's a good character, you don't, that's fine, we'll have to agree to disagree.

You seem to think both Zelda and PT suck, so I was just wondering why you were posting on a board to say how bad they are considering you don't main either. I didn't mean anything like "Nobody should post on the Ganon boards because he sucks." If somebody's a Ganon main, they should post their thoughts about him there. I was just curious why a non-Zelda and non-PT main was posting HERE. The reason I do is because PT used to be my main and continues to remain one of my favorite characters. I was just wondering your reasons. Btw, there are true combos in Brawl. Squirtle has a jab lock and an up-tilt lock. If you don't think there are any combos in Brawl, even though we're talking about Squirtle, try to get out of an IC infinite done by a good IC main. You can't unless they mess up. The same goes for Squirtle's jab lock and u-tilt lock (except those aren't infinite).

But, like I said, since you wanted me to explain that thing about Charizard and Bowser, look it up on either of their forums. There are people much smarter than me with more experience that could help answer your questions. Hope they help.

Ok Half-Split Soul. I'm done now.

 

[KayLo!]

Far from arguing the points being discussed in this argument, what I want to say real quick applies to everyone, although it naturally applies to some people more than others:

Stop. Trolling. The ****ing threads. Seriously, it was funny at one point when the boards weren't being very productive, but we've come a long way with the content of this forum, and the whole "haha, Zelda sucks, and there's nothing you can do about it" attitude is really annoying and has no place in threads where we're trying to accomplish something.

Yes, Zelda sucks. But saying it over and over ain't gonna change that, and she's still a character in this game worthy of discussion. If you have nothing productive to say other than "you can't do this, Zelda sucks at this, she's useless at this" without providing valid information as to how she might be able to cover her weaknesses or enhance her strengths elsewhere, then do. Not. Post.

MrEh, I feel like you think it's your sworn duty to keep the forum's optimism in check, but you can be realistic without being emo and negative about everything Zelda can do. Is this doubles combination is a good one? I don't know -- probably not, but that's not the point here. The point is that this is the combination being discussed whether you like it or not, so if you don't have something productive to say and can't keep your troll comments to yourself, then just don't post.

As far as I read, Bestiarius came up with some good points about this team. Never did he make it out to be the best team ever -- he just pointed out its versatility, and you really came in and steamrolled over everything he said.

Calm it down, boo. That goes for everybody.

 

[Bestiarius]

Thanks Kaylo! for understanding. Like I said, just my two cents.

What are some other advantages/weaknesses this team would have other than what's already been said?

 

[Kataefi]

MrEh read the PM I sent you. Reply to it or tell me you've read it. This way there will be no misunderstandings on the actions I will take in the future if you persist.

 

[Bestiarius]

Just so I'm clear Kataefi, did I do anything wrong and/or deserve a PM? If so, please send me one so I can prevent myself from doing the same thing in the future.

 

[Kataefi]

No it's alright... you never came to this part of the board knowing what to expect.

If you were consistently coming here and trying to cause trouble, then yes, I'd step in, but none of that applies to you.

 

[Bestiarius]

Sweet.

Ok, back to the discussion! Anybody else got a pair o' pennies for this team?

 

[gantrain05]

i don't see zelda and pkm trainer going very far together, trainer gets gimped pretty hard, footstool squirtle and he's gone, edgehog ivysaur, or just **** charizard cuz he's a big fat target in teams. your best bet would probably be squirtle and comboing up some damage, Utilt comboes to whatever arial u want, and u can chain Utilts to like 40% into Fair > Fair > tech chase into grab lol, squirtle is too fun, i suppose if u need trainer to switch as well you could always stand behind zelda and she can spam dins and Fsmash lol.

 

[MrEh]

If so, please send me one so I can prevent myself from doing the same thing in the future.

Don't worry about it. Neither me or you did anything wrong.

Ok, back to the discussion! Anybody else got a pair o' pennies for this team?

Don't get gimped. When you have a team composed of 5 terrible recoveries, you have to make your stocks count.

Stop. Trolling. The ****ing threads.

Good thing that these boards have a censor on them. Otherwise, we might have see our moderation staff swearing left and right, and that would be very unsightly.

And I wasn't trolling.

Seriously, it was funny at one point when the boards weren't being very productive, but we've come a long way with the content of this forum

What content? All I see is a Spam Social Thread.

There's not even an up-to-date guide for new players. lol

and the whole "haha, Zelda sucks, and there's nothing you can do about it" attitude is really annoying and has no place in threads where we're trying to accomplish something.

Zelda does suck, and there really is nothing you can do about it. That attitude is important because if you see the worst of the situation, you understand the right way to overcome it. How do you overcome it? Simple. There is nothing you can do about your character, so how about improving yourself as a player?

But saying it over and over ain't gonna change that, and she's still a character in this game worthy of discussion.

I have never said that we shouldn't discuss Zelda.

If you have nothing productive to say other than "you can't do this, Zelda sucks at this, she's useless at this"

Every post I made in this topic has been constructive and on topic.

without providing valid information as to how she might be able to cover her weaknesses or enhance her strengths elsewhere, then do. Not. Post.

I've already told you guys a way to cover Zelda's weaknesses. It's called Meta Knight, and I suggest that everyone use it. Here's another piece of advice. It's called practice.

you can be realistic without being emo and negative about everything Zelda can do.

I wasn't even being negative with Zelda in this topic. The only thing I said about Zelda in the last couple of posts was that she'll fail in any team that doesn't have a strong partner. That's not bring negative. That's called stating the obvious.

The point is that this is the combination being discussed whether you like it or not, so if you don't have something productive to say and can't keep your troll comments to yourself, then just don't post.

Again, I haven't been trolling in this topic. Care to check?

Trolling (purposefully instigating, belittling others, or causing trouble)

I have done none of this. None of my responses were written to purposely instigate an angry response, they were written just because I disagreed with a poster. I have not flamed anyone, nor have I said anything off topic or out of line. If I had done any of these things blatantly, I'm sure I would have been infracted heavily for this. But I have not. Probably because I have not broken any rules.

Calm it down, boo.

Stop. Trolling. The ****ing threads.

You too.

 

[-Mars-]

Couple things....well actually a bunch of things


BS is like a frame 4 move, it can interrupt things like Sheiks ftilt lock......landing it necessarily isn't hard.
It's useless in teams however as Ivy using it leaves him completely open to the victims partner.

I think Pokemon Trainer is mid tier. If it wasn't for Ivysaurs recovery sucking balls, PT would be a pretty solid character. Who knows maybe with all of this new transformation stuff w might see Ivy not even being a problem in the future.

I agree that the moderation staff shouldn't swear, but I really feel that the "ZELDA SUXOR" stuff is really uncalled for. I don't care if Zelda isn't that great in Brawl......i'm using her. I'm trying to play her to the best of my capabilities.

 

[KayLo!]

I swear because I know the boards are going to censor me, lol. I know for a fact that MrEh's not five years old.... he's a big boy, he can handle it. I really don't mean any disrespect; if y'all felt that way, I apologize. Cursing is like breathing to me unless I'm at work or talking to a kid. =X

Anyways, MrEh, I'm going to PM you since this really shouldn't be discussed any further here.

****ing *****-*** mother****ers.

 

[MrEh]

I agree that the moderation staff shouldn't swear, but I really feel that the "ZELDA SUXOR" stuff is really uncalled for.

And that's why I haven't been saying things like that.

I don't care if Zelda isn't that great in Brawl......i'm using her. I'm trying to play her to the best of my capabilities

Good. You have the right attitude.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Let's look at this matchup in the context you're likely to see it:
Low tier teams.

who do they have to worry about THERE?


I for one agree with the mods and Marsulas. on the trolling issue. You ARE trolling Eh, and now you're being petulant about it. It's irratating that you have invaded our boards and make it unenjoyable to read threads in which you comment.

 

[-Mars-]

Cursing is like breathing to me unless I'm at work or talking to a kid. =X

*Is a kid*

 

[MrEh]

Hm....care to get back to discussion guys? lol

Let's look at this matchup in the context you're likely to see it:
Low tier teams. who do they have to worry about THERE?

That's if Zelda is even allowed in low tier teams. If she is, then all they really have to worry about is Bowser, Ness, and Ike. So nothing really.


My original post still stands.


Zelda+Squirtle=Don't get gimped
Zelda+Ivysaur=Don't get gimped
Zelda+Charizard=Kill as much things as possible.

 

[Ochobobo]

I'm not sure why you think Bull**** seed to Lightning Kick isn't a good strategy, lol. Even if the other opponent punishes Ivy, you should still be able to land the kick.

 

[MrEh]

I'm not sure why you think Bull**** seed to Lightning Kick isn't a good strategy, lol. Even if the other opponent punishes Ivy, you should still be able to land the kick.

Because it requires Zelda to be nearby Ivysaur most of the time to be able to react and kick in time. Otherwise, Ivysaur is going to be punished. And the opponent could just DI the other way, opposite of Zelda.

It's always possible. But it's not something that you should fish for.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm not sure why you think Bull**** seed to Lightning Kick isn't a good strategy, lol. Even if the other opponent punishes Ivy, you should still be able to land the kick.

what if the person punishing Ivy is, say, IKE
D: !!!

 

[MrEh]

what if the person punishing Ivy is, say, IKE
D: !!!

Then Ivysaur can have fun blasting off into the stratosphere.


If you're fishing for something like a Bullet Seed--->LK, just be careful if your opponent's team has something like Bowser, Ike, or Ness on it. Ivysaur won't like an Fsmash from any of the three. Nor will she like a PT2 from Ness.

 

[Ochobobo]

Yeah that's true. If you manage to kill the BulletSeed-victim with Zelda, and get Ivysaur killed in the process, even though both teams lost a life, it's not exactly even. Since Zelda's suddenly on top of someone, after getting that Lightning Kick. lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Then Ivysaur can have fun blasting off into the stratosphere.


If you're fishing for something like a Bullet Seed--->LK, just be careful if your opponent's team has something like Bowser, Ike, or Ness on it. Ivysaur won't like an Fsmash from any of the three. Nor will she like a PT2 from Ness.

I think he has time to avoid PKT2

 

[Ochobobo]

I think he has time to avoid PKT2

Ness's fsmash woulda been bad too. lol

 

[MrEh]

I think he has time to avoid PKT2

She has enough time to avoid if Ness is far away. But if Ness is close, he can just smack her with a tippered bat instead. And that HURTS. (Tippered bats have a crapload of knockback)

 

[Ochobobo]

She has enough time to avoid if Ness is far away. But if Ness is close, he can just smack her with a tippered bat instead. And that HURTS. (Tippered bats have a crapload of knockback)

Ivysaur's a girl?

 

[MrEh]

Ivysaur's a girl?

A lot of people think she is.

In the actual games, some Pokemon look different depending on their gender. Ivysaur is not one of these Pokemon though, but female Venasaur have seeds in their flowers, while the male does not.

Since Ivysaur is 100% Bullet Seed in this game, I'm guessing it's female.


Even without the seed thing, I always thought she was a girl. Sexy I guess.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I always thought dude... I mena in the games any ivy can learn bullet seed.

and if Ivy DOES have time to sheild, PKT2 is easy to punish by sheild.

 

[MrEh]

and if Ivy DOES have time to sheild, PKT2 is easy to punish by sheild.

Remember that when Ivysaur drops his Bullet Seed, the character that was originally trapped can hit Ivysaur too.

If I were in Ivysaur's position, I'd run.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hopefully zelda would be there by then, but I understand your point

 

[sasook]

Remember that when Ivysaur drops his Bullet Seed, the character that was originally trapped can hit Ivysaur too.

If I were in Ivysaur's position, I'd run.

I'm not fully sure about teams, but I was talking to the PT boards about this the other day. They said in 1v1s, they know most people try to aerial after bullet seed is dropped, so much to the point that they expect it nearly every time and just shieldgrab.

 

[AzNfinesse]

Here's my analysis on this team (haven't done one of these in awhile):

This team is extremely volatile and unpredictable. It requires coordination and adaptation skills to the highest level it's almost unfathomable. In order to do this properly, you have to break down PT into 3 separate characters (duh)

Squirtle:
Obviously the most awesome pokemon of the three transformations. Excellent aerial skills and a suprising ability to kill via Fair and Fsmash. Squirtle is a pretty well balanced character offensively. Unfortunately, Squirtle is one of the lightest characters in the game, thus making it difficult to pull off those kills if played too recklessly.

Squirtle + Zelda:
When doing this team and my teammate was using Squirtle, I almost saw a slight remnance of Luigi in this combination. So long as Squirtle controls the air, and zelda plays support from the ground, and they don't run into each other, this works excellent. There are a lot of requirements for this team. Like how it is when zelda teams with any light character, you must be 100% aware of your partner, and vice versa. Zelda can really screw Squirtle over with a mistimed Usmash or Uair.

There is also the Water Gun to consider with this combination (much like Mario's F.L.U.D.D.) Squirtle can use it the same way a Mario player would use it teaming with Zelda (push opponents into Zelda's Usmash/Fsmash/Uair, Push Zelda into opponents while she charges up an Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, or prepares to Utilt. There are many possibilities with Water Gun, so this should definitely be put into the consideration.

Ivysaur:
Bullet Seed. That's all there is to it. Ivysaur is 100% damage dealer. Ivysaur also has some abilities to bait opponents into making the wrong move and going into the air (Razor Leaf, Bair, Nair, etc.) Ivysaur's recovery skills as a tether is probably the second best (being right behing ZSS). Not to mention Ivysaur does have a pretty decent air game and amazing out-of-nowhere kill moves (Usmash, Uair, Dair, Fsmash). Ivysaur is a balanced Killer in this aspect.

Ivysaur + Zelda:
This team would be great. Ivysaur takes on one opponent and Bullet Seeds away, while Zelda uses her ground control skills to protect Ivysaur as long as possible until that kill percent is available, then Zelda follows up with a Uair or Fair or Bair. However, there is that recovery issue. Although Ivysaur's tether recovery is pretty decent, it's still a tether recovery, which is gimpable. Zelda's FW is extremely gimpable, so this brings up some serious issues if both teammates are over the edge. Just be careful not to gimp your teammate. Overall the best combination of the three transformations in my opinion.

Charizard:
Obviously the strongest of the three. Flamethrower is an excellent damage racker if Charizard can set up properly, and Rock Smash is just plain wtfpwn. On top of that, Charizard probably has the easiest kill move to connect of the three (Dthrow) so long as it's fresh. Charizard also has a glide recovery (although nowhere near as good as MK's or Pit's) along with his UpB. Charizard is the powerhouse, hands down.

Charizard + Zelda:
Now this is a beastly killing combination. Leave the damage dealing to Charizard and the stock tanking/finishing kills to Zelda. Now here is the first problem: Charizard is fat. Charizard is a prime target for Zelda's LK's, Uairs, Usmashes, and Fsmashes. Now here is the second problem: Zelda is anorexic. One Rock Smash or Fsmash from Charizard, and Zelda is pretty much doomed. Both players need to be 100% aware of the placement of their teammate. Spacing and timing play a huge role in this combination. If this can be worked out, this can be a quick kill if used at the beginning of the match.

Another issue that comes with teaming with PT is the fatigue issue with the pokemon. If your teammate for some strange reason needs to switch out, Zelda needs to protect him.

Overall, my personal opinion when teaming with PT is make sure he uses either Ivysaur/Charizard first. This can help lead to a quick kill. It is definitely a viable team combination, but make sure both teammates have plenty of practice with each other before entering any tournaments.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Okay, it's time to move on. Were going to do Pit now 'cause I hate his arrows (and because there were no other suggestions.)

The figh discussion is on!

 

[zeldspazz]

Well, this team's major flaw I think would be a team that has a Game and Watch, since both character's projectiles are energy based. Plus the 25:75 matchups against Zelda, but w/e Its also a fairly light team, but Pit is almost impossible to gimp so thats not a huge problem.

I think Zelda would have to support with Dins and do a lot of the KOing, since Pit cant support with arrows for obvious reasons. Pit cant kill easily, his only moves really would be dsmash and side-b (since I tihnk most Pits use fsmash for racking damage)

Im not sure about any advanced stuff, thats just the basic rundown I think.

 

[Kataefi]

Side b won't kill at all zeldspazz... I think you mean sweetspot bair. Pits like to refresh their movesets with quick pokes and lots of arrows if they ever do use a kill move prematurely.

Let's try and get the pit mains

 

[Admiral Pit]

As usual, I don;t got the experience, but let's see what I could think of based on the 2 characters.

What kind of team is Zelda + Pit?

This would seem to be more Defensive than Offensive, Pit himself is already more defensive than offensive (depending on the Pit's style), and Zelda would seem defensive a bit, too, with her reflector and projectile.
The team would be more Passive, but may lean to Semi-Passive/Semi-Aggressive too. Just remember that both of them have projectiles and reflectors.


What roles two the two have in the team?

The basic thing to consider in 2v2 battles is what role every character has. Possible roles could for example be:

* Finisher: Zelda can KO faster which would make her the better finisher, but Pit is great at Edgeguarding, and gimping about half the roster. Pit can be classified here if the opponents are off stage.

* Damage racker: Pit would be classified here with his multi-hit attacks and pretty decent attack speed. Pit can rack up damage while Zelda can keep some of her KO moves fresh.

* Supporter: Both characters can fit here at times.
-Pit already has one of the better projectiles in the game, and being able to control the projectile can help Pit support Zelda whenever Zelda is in close-combat.
-Zelda can support with some Din's Fire at long range. As long as the Pit is aware of the Din's fire, and at the same time, pressure his opponent in close-combat, Zelda should be able to strike the opponents from long range without hurting Pit.

* Stock holder: Pit would have to fit here, for not only is he a bit heavier, but he also has a much better recovery. He's also superb at Ledgecamping, simply a good amount of Defensive needs.

* Spacing master: A Pit that spaces with F-airs and shoots arrows would win here. Actually, idk how Zelda can space, since I haven't used her in a long time.

* Multitasker: Pit has an okay offense, weakened by his bad melee range, but has a better defense. His capability of good support from a long distance and good edgeguarding also make him a good multitasker.
Zelda would be the better KOing character, better range, and some okay defense of her own.

This division is not to be taken too strictly as it´s not unusual for the characters to have traits from multiple of these playstyles, but they work as a nice directory.


What can the two do to support each other?

I need to see a decent Zelda matchup chart, and I should be able to provide more inpit in this area.


What problems does the team have?

Well, I can't say much here, yet without the Zelda matchup thread information, but I would think that the team would have Marth Problems. Pit already has a disadvantage against him, and they probably would be outranged by Marth, and broken MK, with some other moves as well. I believe Zelda hates G&W like Pit does.
Again, I can't say much. without some Zelda matchup data.


Is there something special that should be noted about the team?

Pit and Zelda would make a pretty nice Edgeguarding team, with Zelda's fireballs and Pit's arrows out there. I still can't say much here. I just need more Zelda info.


1.3 Ending words
I can't give a rating yet without some Zelda matchup data, and I can probably sum up most of it later on with that data.

Just give me that Zelda matchup thing, and I'll be able to provide more stuff.
And before I forget, keep in mind that Pit will have problems with MK, G&W, Marth, Wario, Kirby, Olimar, and a bit of Falco, TL, and ROB.

EDIT: I will either edit this post or make a newly updated one after I get a viewing of the Zelda matchup thing, and other stuff.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

do you think it would be especially helpfull if the Zelda was also well versed in sheik? or is Pit/Zelda a good enough team that pit/sheik wouldn't help much

 

[zeldspazz]

Side b won't kill at all zeldspazz... I think you mean sweetspot bair. Pits like to refresh their movesets with quick pokes and lots of arrows if they ever do use a kill move prematurely.

Let's try and get the pit mains

No lol Kata, you misunderstood me. I meant she would support Pit with Dins Fire, and also be doing a lot of the Koing, I wasnt saying that side-b would kill

 

[Kataefi]

It's... late here, sorry spazz!

Admiral you might like this for your viewing pleasure: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240002

It's very incomplete for the time being.

 

[Admiral Pit]

It's... late here, sorry spazz!

Admiral you might like this for your viewing pleasure: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240002

It's very incomplete for the time being.

I already saw that, but it really isn't complete, which would help me determine a few more things if it was complete. I may need round-offs on the character ratios by experienced Zelda players.