Zelda Appreciation Thread

[Luthien]

Zelda's arrows could possibly be faster. Unlike Link, they aren't really, you know, physical. She just kind of formed them in her hand while pulling the bowstring.

One difference I can think of is he arrows having an aura or curvy trajectory like Mewtwo's standard B. Considering they're pretty much magic, I wouldn't expect them to act like Link's.

The strange thing about Din's Fire is that it isn't truly a projectile. It isn't reflectable nor does it do damage until you ignite it, so it's completely harmless while it follows its path. Perhaps a neat buff they could add is making it damaging or giving it knockback as the fireball travels. Kind of like FLUDD, and you can push the characters with the fireball so they're forced to be in the area when it ignites.

The point I'm trying to make is, we can't have Zelda's light arrows too much like Pit's. Pit's arrows are magical. They also form magically from his wrist. We also can't have Zelda's light arrows too much like Link's. We can't have them take forever, but we have to have them take a while.

This is because all of Zelda's magical moves (except for up-smash) take a long time to start up; this said, one really fast magical move falls out of place with her character. Too slow, and she'll get punished; too fast, and it will either be too much like Pit's (which, as I've pointed out, makes no sense), or just not make sense with Zelda in general. Finding a middle ground is pretty much impossible.

By the way, that's a kick-*** Din's Fire idea.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Everyone can agree that Din's need something. Even if Din's is faster to execute and possibly packs more punch, in principle Snake's Missile Launcher is just a better move than Din's. Way more control over the projectile, and Snake can shield-cancel the attack if needed.

Zelda already has fast magic attacks. Usmash, fair, and bair were the prime examples of Melee. And Zelda was fairly fast as drawing the bow and setting an arrow in the situations that called for her doing it, but aiming was slower. If Zelda had direct control of the arrow's angle before firing (straight shot, no curving), that in itself is enough to put it in a league of its own. This move wouldn't need to be super fast to be effective, and doesn't need to be super slow to keep it balanced.

 

[blink777]

And Zelda was fairly fast as drawing the bow and setting an arrow in the situations that called for her doing it, but aiming was slower.

Against all real life bow logic...

If Zelda had direct control of the arrow's angle before firing (straight shot, no curving), that in itself is enough to put it in a league of its own.

I was really hoping that either Link or Pit would be able to do this in Brawl (Link's arrow aiming in Soul Calibur was just too much fun), so I guess Zelda's (currently) our last chance of seeing some real aiming.

And while I'm here, is it just me, or are the posts in the Zelda forum much easier to stomach than those in the Peach forum? I can barely bring myself to mod the posts there.

lmao!!

 

[Luthien]

Everyone can agree that Din's need something. Even if Din's is faster to execute and possibly packs more punch, in principle Snake's Missile Launcher is just a better move than Din's. Way more control over the projectile, and Snake can shield-cancel the attack if needed.

Zelda already has fast magic attacks. Usmash, fair, and bair were the prime examples of Melee. And Zelda was fairly fast as drawing the bow and setting an arrow in the situations that called for her doing it, but aiming was slower. If Zelda had direct control of the arrow's angle before firing (straight shot, no curving), that in itself is enough to put it in a league of its own. This move wouldn't need to be super fast to be effective, and doesn't need to be super slow to keep it balanced.

Maybe you can now Shield cancel out on Din's Fire now too. Only an update can tell. But yeah, it is by princilple of the move itself the worst 'projectile' in the game.

And yeah, I knew that fast move thing would come back and bite me in the butt. But still, I'm trying to base my ideas on what Nintendo's likely to do. Do I want light arrows to be the best move in the game? Yes. Will it be, based on how Zelda's been represented thus far? Probably not.

I'm trying to think like a move-creator-person (don't know what to call him/her/them) would, by comparing that move (which has already been used twice) with the two other characters similar moves, and creating differences. I'm saying that although a fast draw/choose the angle/stun arrow would both be awesome and make sense, it may not happen based on what the person who is in charge's ideas and what's been done before.

For example: fast draw. Does it make sense? Yes. That's a good thing; this makes they WANT to put that into the move because it makes sense. Has it been used before? Yes. That's a bad thing: they probably don't want to create clone moves (*cough*anymore*cough*). The fact that they don't want a move to be too much like the other will override the fact that it would make sense.

I think. I'm not one of those people, so I wouldn't know, but I'm guessing that's what they're looking for.

 

[blink777]

But do you think that combining these ideas (fast draw, angling, and stun) would make the move different enough from the exsisting bows? But then, I smell overpowered like bad kitty litter *thinks of an aimable Falco Blaster and shudders*.

By the way, Middle-Earth representation FTW @ Luthien.

 

[Luthien]

But do you think that combining these ideas (fast draw, angling, and stun) would make the move different enough from the exsisting bows? But then, I smell overpowered like bad kitty litter *thinks of an aimable Falco Blaster and shudders*.

By the way, Middle-Earth representation FTW @ Luthien.

Yes, but you see, combining those factors would give Zelda a good move. We couldn't have THAT.

Oh, and I love you now, Blink. Anything Tolkien owns.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

As long as Zelda lacks the ability to close gaps on her own (in Melee she's owned hard by campers), there's no way this could be broken.

 

[Drake3]

Maybe we're focusing too much on Light Arrows. It seems that Pit has taken pretty much everything that could've been used by them: Fast, Energy Based, Awesome etc.

Why not just give her a generic beam of light? A generic chargeable beam of light maybe? Or she could just wave her hand a sparkles could shoot out. In case you didn't notice, this is me wanting a spammable projectile attack that doesn't require thought or precision timing. Din's Fire has its uses, but to give a magic based character one projectile is stupid. In every game in the history of anything, mages stand in the back and throw out devastating spells. This is why they're so frail. Zelda got the latter part, so why not the former.

 

[Luthien]

As long as Zelda lacks the ability to close gaps on her own (in Melee she's owned hard by campers), there's no way this could be broken.

I don't recal saying it would be broken. I said it would be good. I'm really saying that too many things get in the way. In order(ish):

First: Sheik would have to be shoved elsewhere.
Second: Light arrows would have to be selected to be the move to replace Sheik.
Third: The people making the moves would actually have to know how hard it is for Zelda to counter camping (she can't).
Fourth: They would have to actually put said factors into the light arrows.

There are other things, but I'm saying that the chances of light arrows actually being in the game and being useful aren't so great.

 

[blink777]

Dang Luthien, that's terribly depressing but I've gotta say your arguments are looking like the most plausible. I think I could be completely fine with Drake's spammy-generic-beam-of-light proposal, but there's just something so inherently awesome about Elven princesses kicking *** with weapons (note my earlier idea for her to have her Rapier as an alternate moveset) that the lack of light arrows would hurt something fierce.

 

[Luthien]

Maybe we're focusing too much on Light Arrows. It seems that Pit has taken pretty much everything that could've been used by them: Fast, Energy Based, Awesome etc.

Why not just give her a generic beam of light? A generic chargeable beam of light maybe? Or she could just wave her hand a sparkles could shoot out. In case you didn't notice, this is me wanting a spammable projectile attack that doesn't require thought or precision timing. Din's Fire has its uses, but to give a magic based character one projectile is stupid. In every game in the history of anything, mages stand in the back and throw out devastating spells. This is why they're so frail. Zelda got the latter part, so why not the former.

This is a good idea (in fact, there are many out there), but some of them probably won't happen because of the second step I mentioned: the people who make the moves have to actually think of it. I can only pray that for some odd reason they've looked at SWF and discovered which characters have what problems and why. But yes, I've heard the beam idea before and there are some things you'd have to specify. Would it stun like Mewtwo's down-b, or would it have high knockback? Or would it do high damage with little knockback? Or what about the sparkles; a bunch of little hit's that occur almost at the same time, like Sheik's needles? The list goes on.

Even then, the pessimist inside me knows that even if we discuss this, it has little or no effect on what's going to happen to Zelda's moves (at this point in time anyway; if some people have been searching this forum for ideas, it's far too late to start over). Oh well, it's still fun!

 

[blink777]

Oh well, it's still fun!

Heck yeah! It's a whole lot more fun than thinking about how tonights update is so NOT going to be about Zelda.

 

[HipsterKid]

I had no idea that my thread would eventually be revived. Meh, it was only a matter of time.

Nonetheless, as much of a Sheik activist I used to be, I think I've finally gotten over Sheik. Zelda, and Zelda only, is my main. No more Sheik. Don't get me wrong, I like her and all but I'm starting to like the idea of light arrows more than Sheik. I think I've come up with this basis.

For Brawl, I wouldn't mind if Sheik was replaced if she was replaced by Light Arrows only. I don't accept Rapier nor magic sparkles as a good idea yet. I could later on but I'd rather have Sheik. :/

Midna for Brawl. :/

 

[Luthien]

Heck yeah! It's a whole lot more fun than thinking about how tonights update is so NOT going to be about Zelda.

Sadly true. Let's blame someone who clearly isn't responsible for that. *Blames sister. Gets slapped.*

So, back on topic. What does everyone think? Light arrows? Rays? Rapier? Light needle-thingies-of-doom? I like all of them. Someone pursuade me.

 

[blink777]

So, back on topic. What does everyone think? Light arrows? Rays? Rapier? Light needle-thingies-of-doom? I like all of them. Someone pursuade me.

Most desired: Light arrows
Still cool: Light rays/beam
Can live with: Light needle-thingies-of-doom (could really, really like it if it turned out to be as useful as suggested)
More likely: Sheik
Most likely: Something ridiculously disappointing

Gah... I'm getting overly bitter over Zelda.

 

[Stiputation]

Most desired: Light arrows
Still cool: Light rays/beam
Can live with: Light needle-thingies-of-doom (could really, really like it if it turned out to be as useful as suggested)
More likely: Sheik
Most likely: Something ridiculously disappointing

Gah... I'm getting overly bitter over Zelda.

I highly agree, a half a year without a Zelda update? I swear, if it’s just a re-designed version of Sheik I will be extremely pissed off.
All that waiting and anticipation for nothing.
I swear it’s just like waiting for a pokemon in the grass or something.

But my most desired moved would definitely be Light Arrows. I seriously think that should be her DownB. I can envision it so well not looking like Pit's. But depicting it will be immensely hard. Here goes:

"Imagine Zelda on Corenia, using a DownB of Light Arrows. I ball of light magically appears in her hand (quickly) and an arrow appears along with it. Humor me, the arrows are golden and have a spiffy design on them that looks rather...Zelda ish. However, Zelda is not firing the arrows the exact same way Pit and Link are firing theirs. She is firing them SIDEWAYS. As the arrow is being released it leaves a faint golden trail along with it. The wind from the Corenia blows Zelda's hair along with the special stance that the dress comes with as well."

Weather this should be a charge up attack is beyond me. But I do think that it should be spammable. This.... would seriously be a dream come true. As for her Final Smash should either be possessed Zelda or the goddesses or Hyrule. Either one is livable and highly wanted but possessed Zelda seems much more likely.

This..... is my fantasy.

 

[Cless]

Why would Light Arrows be down b when every other shooting projectile in the game is neutral b? If they did give her Light Arrows, they'd be neutral b and Nayru's Love would be down b.

Also, whether.

 

[blink777]

Ooooo... and she could be standing up properly (rather than the dang kneeling thing everyone and their mother... you know, I'm just going to stop right there). I had always pictured her firing with her bow vertically, but I'm totally down with some angled/horizontal hold'age after your description (schmexy Legolas firing anyone?)

 

[Stiputation]

Why would Light Arrows be down b when every other shooting projectile in the game is neutral b? If they did give her Light Arrows, they'd be neutral b and Nayru's Love would be down b.

Also, whether.

Whos to say that Light Arrows won't be her NeutralB.
With all this waiting, something big has to be in store!

 

[TheLake]

Well said i actually have very high hopes for zelda! (Then again thats probably just the zelda mainer in me talking :D)

But as far as apperance and costumes zelda pawns all (Yeah even YOU classic wario...not so much dark link though that is just tooo bad ace!) and all this waiting is getting to me too...

But I'll say its gonna be worth it. I dont care if im wrong i just wanna be one of the zelda followers who believed lol

 

[Luthien]

I'm leaning towards the ray of light now, because it's being ignored.

I was thinking that it could shoot out about half the distance of Final Destination, looking like it did in OoT. Also, building on Drake3's long range idea, it would stun longer the farther away the opponent is from her when caught in the beam (I know it would make more sense for it to be stronger the closer they are to Zelda, but I want a powerful long-range move). Also, it would have no/little knockback and little damage. So, in other words, a simple immobilizer.

I have no idea how it would apply to edgeguarding. Suggestions, please.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

But do you think that combining these ideas (fast draw, angling, and stun) would make the move different enough from the exsisting bows? But then, I smell overpowered like bad kitty litter *thinks of an aimable Falco Blaster and shudders*.

My last post was in response to this. Zelda doesn't have a terrific offense like Falco, SHL is gone, and this move could be designed to be safe only at reasonably long ranges.

 

[Earthbenderjump5]

fs idea.
its kind of dumb. no really and wrong but here i go.

she uses the orcania of time to make all the oppents babys. (of course they all look the same because they would have to make different characters) then she kills um.
but it would be kind of wrong to do that.

 

[Ryudo_Sama]

fs idea.
its kind of dumb. no really and wrong but here i go.

she uses the orcania of time to make all the oppents babys. (of course they all look the same because they would have to make different characters) then she kills um.
but it would be kind of wrong to do that.

Yeah, that would be a bit over the line.. But maybe she can slow down time, and everything is slower expect her of course.

 

[Luthien]

Yeah, that would be a bit over the line.. But maybe she can slow down time, and everything is slower expect her of course.

TP Zelda using the Ocarina of Time... doesn't that make just as much sense as her turning into Sheik? *Insert arguement about Sheik in Brawl that lasts forever here* But, I've gotta tell you, I'd rather see that than watch her FS turn her into Sheik...

@RyokoYaksa: Yes, I get your post now. Sorry, my brain was dead long before I finished posting last night. Zelda needs a good offense, so light arrows are the perfect thing for that. The question is, do the ones who design her moves know/care?

 

[Zelda_Sheik]

I believe that they don't care about TP Zelda using attacks from Ocarina of time . If Zelda has a TP look, why would her attacks be from Ocarina of time. I don't think that they care of this because if they did, Farore's wind, Din's fire, Nayru's Love and her transformation of Sheik would also be out. So she would have 4 new attacks. I hope that is not Possesed Zelda her final smash. I am stronger 'cause I'm possesed?

 

[Luthien]

I believe that they don't care about TP Zelda using attacks from Ocarina of time . If Zelda has a TP look, why would her attacks be from Ocarina of time. I don't think that they care of this because if they did, Farore's wind, Din's fire, Nayru's Love and her transformation of Sheik would also be out. So she would have 4 new attacks. I hope that is not Possesed Zelda her final smash. I am stronger 'cause I'm possesed?

Yes, they may not care. But then again, they might. Who ACTUALLY knows? Nobody. I like to think that they've drawn a line somewhere, but to be perfectly honest, I have no clue.

About the Din, Naryu, and Farore move things, there are some things that Nintendo knows that they can get away with (meaning, they know that those moves COULD make sense), and some things that they can't. Sheik: nobody has any idea. Ocarina of Time: That's the title of the other GAME. I think that's just a little TOO blunt to go with. But, I could be wrong. We won't know until 9:04 a.m. Feb. 10th.

 

[Zelda_Sheik]

Hahaha. That is true. He seems like he has completely forgot about Zelda or/and Sheik.
And about your signature, lol !

 

[Luthien]

Ooooo... and she could be standing up properly (rather than the dang kneeling thing everyone and their mother... you know, I'm just going to stop right there). I had always pictured her firing with her bow vertically, but I'm totally down with some angled/horizontal hold'age after your description (schmexy Legolas firing anyone?)

Yeah, if Zelda has a bow, I would need to be at a 45ish degree angle to make it different from Pit's/Link's. Not to mention it would look totaly hot.

@ Zelda_Sheik: I think it's a cliffhanger. There's no way he's forgotten. He just knows that he's got us in the palm of his hand every morning at 1:00 a.m. (during Christmas Break anyway ). And yes, I know my sig is totally awesome.

 

[HipsterKid]

Well, I've just come up with this idea. It still includes Sheik as Zelda's transformation however it is a lot more easy to deal with.

Okay, for the first thing, they take off the "Hold A to transform to Sheik at the beginning of the battle" thing. That way you HAVE to start the battle as Zelda.

Okay, with that, there is no ignoring Zelda. Now on to the actual transformation. How about they have it to where it takes about 3 seconds to turn into Sheik and vice versa. Now I know that is horrible lag but it works out. If someone who is wanting to use Sheik tries using it at the beginning of the battle, then they will have to suffer the consequences of getting a beating and possibly not even transforming at all. As for the Sheik users who Zelda to get back to the stage, they would have to suffer from the consequences of the lag of the transformation and might not even get to teleporting before they die. And, if they really do end up getting back to the stage, they have to play as Zelda to make it through the match, since the transformation takes so long.

If you think about it, Zelda users can just use Zelda without a problem, Sheik users HAVE to get some play time as Zelda (other than just Farore's wind), and each one can still get their own Final Smash.

Of course, you'd still have to admit to sacrificing that down B attack but it's a way to save a character slot, to keep the transformation unique, and to give Zelda that spot in the limelight.

 

[blink777]

I think that perpetuates the problem of people only using one of the two, rather than fixing it. If it's so hard to switch, once you get the character you like, why switch around to the other?

 

[Cless]

Plus it just makes the entire character worse.

 

[Luthien]

Well, I've just come up with this idea. It still includes Sheik as Zelda's transformation however it is a lot more easy to deal with.

Okay, for the first thing, they take off the "Hold A to transform to Sheik at the beginning of the battle" thing. That way you HAVE to start the battle as Zelda.

Okay, with that, there is no ignoring Zelda. Now on to the actual transformation. How about they have it to where it takes about 3 seconds to turn into Sheik and vice versa. Now I know that is horrible lag but it works out. If someone who is wanting to use Sheik tries using it at the beginning of the battle, then they will have to suffer the consequences of getting a beating and possibly not even transforming at all. As for the Sheik users who Zelda to get back to the stage, they would have to suffer from the consequences of the lag of the transformation and might not even get to teleporting before they die. And, if they really do end up getting back to the stage, they have to play as Zelda to make it through the match, since the transformation takes so long.

If you think about it, Zelda users can just use Zelda without a problem, Sheik users HAVE to get some play time as Zelda (other than just Farore's wind), and each one can still get their own Final Smash.

Of course, you'd still have to admit to sacrificing that down B attack but it's a way to save a character slot, to keep the transformation unique, and to give Zelda that spot in the limelight.

Hmm. That ideas gonna make some people angry. I think that a better approach would be to have the player WANT to use both, not force them to use both. Because, let's face it: it doesn't matter how good something is, if you try to force it on people, they will instinctively react negatively.

The problem with the Zelda/Sheik relationship was that anything Zelda could do, Sheik could do better. The developers of the game tried to make it so that Zelda would be better for some situations, and Sheik would be better for others. The only problem was, they made it so that Sheik was good for all situations (pretty much). The challenge for them was to make it so that you COULD win a match with only one of the two, but to make it far easier if you switched mid-battle. They couldn't meet those expectations at that point in time. Nor do I think they can do so now, unless they revolutionize either Zelda's or Sheik's gameplay.

I'll work from the start: no immediate switch? I don't think this will help much. There are going to be situations where it's better to use Sheik than Zelda in Brawl. What you really want is a balance.

About the lag thing, one of the reasons people DIDN'T switch was because it took so much time. Making more lag would hinder more than help; the people who for some reason use both anyway get screwed, and Sheik users lose the match.

So what you really want is to have balance created, without modifying Sheik/Zelda's moveset or attributes, correct? This is just how I interprited it.

 

[HipsterKid]

I think that perpetuates the problem of people only using one of the two, rather than fixing it. If it's so hard to switch, once you get the character you like, why switch around to the other?

Well think of it like this.

A Sheik user is fighting, I don't know, a Falco. Falco knocks Sheik of the stage so far that the only way the Sheik user is going to get back is through using Farore's Wind, right? So the Sheik transforms and uses Farore's Wind. Zelda now makes it back to the stage, however, since the transformation takes too long and if used will more than likely result in death, the Sheik player has to play as Zelda, at least until Falco dies. Because, you and I both know, that in a tournament, a Sheik user would probably rather transform than die. And with Zelda's possible buffs, there isn't really anything stopping them from staying as Zelda for a bit.

I know, it does have it's setbacks but it's a good way for Sheik users to get used to playing Zelda. As for Zelda users, they don't have to worry about the lag of transform. Of course, Zelda users wouldn't get used to playing Sheik but Sheik already did have her time in the spotlight.


EDIT: I guess you're right Luthien. It does have kind of a lot of setbacks. And yes, I'm trying to find a way to balance it out. I'm not doing too good with it but the Zelda/Sheik mainer in me is kind of forcing me to try something. It was worth the shot though.

 

[Luthien]

Well think of it like this.

A Sheik user is fighting, I don't know, a Falco. Falco knocks Sheik of the stage so far that the only way the Sheik user is going to get back is through using Farore's Wind, right? So the Sheik transforms and uses Farore's Wind. Zelda now makes it back to the stage, however, since the transformation takes too long and if used will more than likely result in death, the Sheik player has to play as Zelda, at least until Falco dies. Because, you and I both know, that in a tournament, a Sheik user would probably rather transform than die. And with Zelda's possible buffs, there isn't really anything stopping them from staying as Zelda for a bit.

I know, it does have it's setbacks but it's a good way for Sheik users to get used to playing Zelda. As for Zelda users, they don't have to worry about the lag of transform. Of course, Zelda users wouldn't get used to playing Sheik but Sheik already did have her time in the spotlight.

Zelda's getting buffed. This is clear. She's faster, and that's pretty much all she needs at this point: speed. This should improve her popularity as it is. You don't need to force Sheik players to stay as Zelda; they might on their own anyway.

Example: one of my good friends uses Sheik for the majority and fights as Zelda if her opponent's either found a pattern of hers or if something is going horribly wrong.

Don't forget the if the Zelda player want's to transform into Sheik. For examle, sometimes I fair the enemy of stage and switch to Sheik to edgeguard.

We're supposed to be supporting the transform idea by making it better. It seems like you've abandoned it by making it worse (not an accusation or anything). And that's understandable. It was so crappy in Melee that may in fact be the only option if something hasn't been changed.

But it seems to me something has.

 

[Stiputation]

The way I see it is, if Zelda and Sheik didn't have to worry about balancing each other out, they could BOTH be better characters.
Think about it, Zelda needs speed, Sheik doesn't. If Zelda's speed increases and Sheik's stays the same, you've already got a problem right there. Simply because if the designers want the two to balance each other out, if the speed is the same, it isn't exactly balanced at all! People would automatically pick Sheik because shes cooler. Zelda and Sheik are two very different characters, your comparing a quick ninja like character with a slow powerhouse. It is these little niches that make the transformation gimmick so hard to pull off, and its unlikely that they will be able to perfect it in Brawl.


While, if they were separate, they could both have different stats and you would be able to choose which character you would like to play as based on them.

 

[Luthien]

The way I see it is, if Zelda and Sheik didn't have to worry about balancing each other out, they could BOTH be better characters.
Think about it, Zelda needs speed, Sheik doesn't. If Zelda's speed increases and Sheik's stays the same, you've already got a problem right there. Simply because if the designers want the two to balance each other out, if the speed is the same, it isn't exactly balanced and people would automatically pick Sheik because shes cooler. It is these little niches that make the transformation gimmick so hard to pull off. and its unlikely that they will be able to perfect it in Brawl.

Yes indeed. Thank you, Stiputation. I was thinking that, but I couldn't put it in words, y'know?

Could someone, I don't know, make a chart of all the solutions suggested with pros/cons etcetera? I'm way too lazy, but if we want to sort this out, we'd need that kind of organization. Of course, if I were to do it, it would take all afternoon...

 

[Ryudo_Sama]

If Zelda is not going to have Sheik in her moveset or Final Smash, then she needs to be heavily rebuffed.

 

[-spAzn-]

If Zelda is not going to have Sheik in her moveset or Final Smash, then she needs to be heavily rebuffed.

Yeah she does. If Sheik's gone leaving Zelda the same would just be a total kill for her. There's no doubt in my mind that Zelda has been buffed even with the inclusion of Sheik.

As for the whole transformation thing yeah I agree with Stipulation problems will occur when trying to balance them. If you make one strong you have to make the other a little weaker same with speed one faster one slower though as we've seen that really didn't really work in Melee. And if you have two very strong and speedy characters merged into one that's not balance that's an unstoppable powerhouse. Then there's making both equally strong and the same speed then you sorta have two half characters. Though I suppose then the whole switching could come into play but still I don't want to do that. Anyway I dunno this whole Zelda/Sheik thing is driving me crazy.

 

[Luthien]

Yeah she does. If Sheik's gone leaving Zelda the same would just be a total kill for her. There's no doubt in my mind that Zelda has been buffed even with the inclusion of Sheik.

As for the whole transformation thing yeah I agree with Stipulation problems will occur when trying to balance them. If you make one strong you have to make the other a little weaker same with speed one faster one slower though as we've seen that really didn't really work in Melee. And if you have two very strong and speedy characters merged into one that's not balance that's an unstoppable powerhouse. Then there's making both equally strong and the same speed then you sorta have two half characters. Though I suppose then the whole switching could come into play but still. Anyway I dunno this whole Zelda/Sheik thing is driving me crazy.

Well, you've covered three-quarters of it. Nintendo was simply trying to do too many things at once with the Down-b move.

They had to make Zelda/and Sheik weak enough to depend on each other and need to switch to survive.

On the other hand, they had to make them strong enough to be able to win on their own as well, in case you wouldn't have a chance to switch mid-battle.

So, Zelda is the result of the first part, and Sheik is a result of the second. Here comes the chaos.