X is the best sonic.

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Wow. You guys are all a ****ing riot. This is the best semi-sorta flame war I've seen in a while.

lol Mad disrespects and trolls all around.

No you got it all wrong, Sinz and I joke with each other all the time.

 

[Kuraudo]

.... was talkin' about Espy and M2K and all that stuff. XD

 

[ElDominio]

I love Sonic boards. Very orderly and friendly. Great way to improve on everything *pulls out Gnasher* WHO'S NEXT?!??!?!*

 

[-Mars-]

Lol you guys are funny. Like we really care if you guys think X is better than the EC when he takes games off the best player in the world.

LMAO.

 

[Espy Rose]

Wow. You guys are all a ****ing riot. This is the best semi-sorta flame war I've seen in a while.

lol Mad disrespects and trolls all around.

I'm sorry Kuraudo. It's just too easy whenever this happens.
It's like telling me NOT to jump into a giant pool of chocolate, when I LOVE chocolate.

 

[o-Serin-o]

So why is this thread still open? <_<

 

[Sinz]

Because its X.

 

[Chis]

Lol you guys are funny. Like we really care if you guys think X is better than the EC when he takes games off the best player in the world.

LMAO.

Obviously someone missed the OP.

 

[-Mars-]

Obviously someone missed the OP.

Obviously someone can't read because I didn't mention anything about Sonic in my post.

 

[Chis]

I didn't know I mentioned anything about Sonic in my post either.

 

[-Mars-]

The original post talks about x being the best sonic so I don't see what you're getting at here. People in previous posts were talking about X ****** WC tournies and that he should come to the EC.....which is what my post was directed at.

 

[Chis]

Well he did more then take two games off M2K, however fair enough.

 

[JayBee]

I know you don't mention matchup experience here, but i've heard that many times after X ***** things.


But saying things like "Tyrant and DSF are scrubs for losing to a Sonic" is making excuses. Sure it's funny that they lost to a character that we all consider to not be very good. But honestly, that is just a sign of where X is at.

I feel like people get so wrapped up in current Matchup percents and whatnot that they forget there is a game going on and reading and adapting is much more important than who you pick really. (Unless like you said you love Gdorf)

Sure X has an odd playstyle and it does get a bit repetitive, but he's not going to beat top players by simply rolling around the stage mindlessly. He reads, he learns and he punishes.

I'm not saying that every character can be successful, but I think that X is showing that maybe we are not looking at the game correctly. Shaky shows this too with Ness. Maybe being effective isn't about learning all the techs, or trying to play similarly to how other good characters play. People are saying X's "2008 Sonic" is good. While I wouldn't call it that, maybe it shows that Sonic can be effective, just not the way we play him.

You could keep saying that Sonic sucks and Metaknights shouldn't lose to him. Okay, then we'll sit here and twiddle our thumbs as the best Sonic who goes on the boards says we can't beat metaknight. Or we could just ignore the matchups and try to come up with our own way to bait and punish top players.

I have a few things to say after reading a whole mess of pages (goes with this and other commments):

There seems to be evidnce of an underlining problem when it concerns X, his playstyle, and our inability at times to see how it is working IMO. It's like we know the reason, but still dont believe it or do anything about this. I told speed this, but I'll say it again: I'm reevaluating my entire spin dash game lol. It is obvious at this point that me, and other sonics, even after 2 years, haven't mastered the usage of his spins. The main reason: the preception that many people give about them being something that gets people *****, when it probably is just that they are still using them haphazardly.

When Sonic was being built, they lliterally designed his spins to be a major aspect of gameplay, in order to stay true to the games he came from. We know what it can do, but I feel like we clearly didn't spend as much time as we thought, or maybe it isn't sinking through to our gamestyles. The region argument and the matchup argument concerning X's Success is hereby abolished, obviously, if he can play like this for so, so long. I feel like I'm making excuses for my own lack of skill if I was to say this all the time, and id sounds like a broken record hearing it here.

What's most likely going to happen now is this: Many sonic's are going to try to replicate some, or most of his playstyle to prove to them selves if this is legit for them. Honestly this probably should have happened a long time ago. X was already considered a top 3 sonic anyways, but there was still this opinion that he was simply lucky to be in the region he was in, as certian players put less focus on the method of attack, and more attention to the characters he is playing against. Espy, I don't consider Meta his worst matchup, I'll PM you the reasons to that later.

If the game in toruneys is about player skill and adaption, THIS is the reason X wins. Do you know that people STILL sometimes can't tell the difference between our spins in matches? We can shake our heads about that, but I can understand a bit what they mean if the sonic isn't giving them time to really look at him to decipher the difference mid match. and even if they do, how much it affects them when you delay releases, jumpcancel, shield cancel, go into spring ( which has options after that), shield grab, spin dash past all from one stationary stance? Its because he has too many things he can go into, which makes predicitons more difficult, even if those options dont have the force or priority of moves like Snakes Ftilt or Meta's dair. It's too much to process sometimes for players, I suppose.

It is possible that Tyrant and others are more dependant on their characters abilities in order to win than others, but its probably that they need to pay closer attention to X's Sonic specifically and work on that matchup like anyone normally has to do in the first place . Maybe he never gave full respect to the Sonic matchup, and now that he has lost so many times to it, probably will try to finally rectify that. I don't know. Its not like there aren't people who are winning mostly due to the character's ablities. It's just that its disrespectful to say that they are without a shadow of a doubt bad, when everyones has that one matchup that they can't deal with well like they do. And I am at fault for this too

I too love Chocolate. the end.

 

[Player-3]

espy is my best friend


if we had babys.... oh my gooood

 

[Espy Rose]

I love you too, P3.
@Kojin: I'd love to honestly hear why, especially since MK only really needs two moves and a brain to beat us.

 

[Kinzer]

I don't suppose they'd be Down Tilt and Down Taunt, huh papa?

/half-joking. /curious.

 

[RATED]

actually I am not THAT surprised to see a Sonic do things like that actually

People underate sonic, even some of his mainers.

Sonic can punish most things with his speed but he doesnt punish that hard. He have the tools the make the opponent do a mistakes example: the spins cancels stuff. He's hard to gimp and can get out of some bad situations with his Up B.

I know already that you guys know your main so it would be worthless to continue speaking.

btw Good **** X. it would be good to see how X do against Ally.

 

[Tenki]

^

Ally probably knows the Sonic matchup much better.

 

[Trent]

Ally eats Sonics for breakfast with Captain Falcon.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Guess Sonic suffered from Pit syndrome if you ask me.

If he indeed did a "08" on everyone this whole time in the tourney, we really need to look into some things.

......

Can I be a top player too?

 

[Browny]

Except hes been doing an '08' on very good players for a long time now, not just one tourney >_>

 

[Tenki]

He has good spindash rhythm mixups.

That's the #1 thing I'd take from his game. :3

Like, I was seriously caught off-guard watching his timing sometimes XD

@BT:
He 08combo'd M2K.
[u-throw>spring>u-air]

You wanna use that to validate 08 playstyle, or to prove that M2K didn't know the matchup at first? lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

M2K has always been a player who plays very basic.
Seriously, if he doesn't fight the character often enough, of course he'll get gimmicked.

Looked at how poorly he used to do against Diddy and what was because he did not know how to even mess with items!
So no, you shouldn't be impressed.
Factof th matter is, you all should be very weary.
Considering the fact that they lost to tactics that we all know for a fact are poor and are very easily punished is obviously a sign not of an effective style, but of even bothering to learn what tod o against the character.

DSF and Tyrant should not have lost.
M2K shouldn't have gotten hit by HALF the crap that hit him.

Less meat riding.
And yes if he came to EC he'd probably have more difficulty because we learn those matchups ~_^

 

[Browny]

He 08combo'd M2K.
[u-throw>spring>u-air]

You wanna use that to validate 08 playstyle, or to prove that M2K didn't know the matchup at first? lol.

ugh...

So according to you, that is 100% unavoidable. Again, its extremely easy to predict which way people will DI uthrow, its almost always backwards. Add to this MK's horrid airspeed, it will take a fraction of a second to simply take a few steps back before springing. with you rising to MK's height, what guaranteed options does he have to escape it? The Sonic is allowed to predict his movements too you know, why are people hell bent on discounting things because the enemy can avoid it. Wow this just in, you can avoid falcos lasers!

its just a combination of a bad move by m2k and a good prediction by x which allowed this to happen, it wont often but by no means is it impossible against so called 'good players'

 

[Tenki]

He 08combo'd M2K.
[u-throw>spring>u-air]

You wanna use that to validate 08 playstyle, or to prove that M2K didn't know the matchup at first? lol.

ugh...

So according to you, that is 100% unavoidable. Again, its extremely easy to predict which way people will DI uthrow, its almost always backwards. Add to this MK's horrid airspeed, it will take a fraction of a second to simply take a few steps back before springing. with you rising to MK's height, what guaranteed options does he have to escape it? The Sonic is allowed to predict his movements too you know, why are people hell bent on discounting things because the enemy can avoid it. Wow this just in, you can avoid falcos lasers!

its just a combination of a bad move by m2k and a good prediction by x which allowed this to happen, it wont often but by no means is it impossible against so called 'good players'

No idea how you came to the first sentence.

I just wanted to point out to BT an example of the "08" that went on, specifically one case of success.

Anyone have vids of games 3-5 of their set?

 

[Espy Rose]

3-5 were also uploaded to Youtube on the same day as 1-2.

@DJ: I swear, you suffer from blind optimism.
@SL: I doubt that he can still deal with bananas.

 

[Browny]

I meant avoidable lol >_<

and I linked all the vids in the video thread

@DJ: I swear, you suffer from blind optimism.

Its not optimism... Its just arguing aginst you guys effectively johning for the other player. God forbid the reason X hit them with it was because he predicted their DI and followed up perfectly, predicting their movements again and spacing the uair well. No its always because the other player 'didnt know the matchup'.

 

[B.A.M.]

Im not suprised X did what he did. He is a top level player; his buffering is top notch. He reads and punishes like a beast. Its funny because alot of Sonic mainers are confused as to why X's techs work when all hes doing is down b and spin dashes. As Sonic mainers you should all know the myriad of options we get from those two moves. Its like saying im getting punished for walking but he doesnt. Theres so much you can do from spin dashes that most Sonics dont do. Majority of sonics are pretty set it what they are going to do, the moment they spin-dash. They never act AND react while using spin-dash. O and alot Sonics cancel freakin slow as hell. its okay to cancel slow sometimes as far as mixup goes but quicker cancels into buffered actions aid sonic game tremendously.

Espy, even if sonic's worst matchup is MK; i believe its 60:40 at worst. Straight up your style gets crapped on by MK. Its a shame because majority of the players on this board follow your style; which is why X's techniques make absolutely no sense to the majority of players here.

All the sonics here need to re evaluate their styles, and check out things for themselves. Dont just play a certain way because of the influence of the boards. Go figure ish out urselves. You can say all you want about style vs character. Ultimately the character has to have some decent options for his style to even stand a chance. Im sure you all saw things X failed to punish, theres more for us all to learn. Sonic isnt great, but he sure as hell isnt as bad as others portray him to be. Learn to punish properly; half the sonics here would be come instantly better if they knew how to truly punish with sonic instead of sitting in shield because you been told you have nothing but bad priority.

Dont even know why im writing this. Espy loves his trollin. I guess this was directed to the others. Good ish X; you always been solid. Just know BAM always believed lol. now step your swag up; ur still missin ish son. Hit me up when u come back 2 Cali

 

[JayBee]

M2K should play Sonic. There. I said it.


I'll PM you later today Espy. not gonna post here because that's off topic ( like this matters in this kind of thread, but still...)

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Im not suprised X did what he did. He is a top level player; his buffering is top notch. He reads and punishes like a beast. Its funny because alot of Sonic mainers are confused as to why X's techs work when all hes doing is down b and spin dashes. As Sonic mainers you should all know the myriad of options we get from those two moves. Its like saying im getting punished for walking but he doesnt. Theres so much you can do from spin dashes that most Sonics dont do. Majority of sonics are pretty set it what they are going to do, the moment they spin-dash. They never act AND react while using spin-dash. O and alot Sonics cancel freakin slow as hell. its okay to cancel slow sometimes as far as mixup goes but quicker cancels into buffered actions aid sonic game tremendously.

Espy, even if sonic's worst matchup is MK; i believe its 60:40 at worst. Straight up your style gets crapped on by MK. Its a shame because majority of the players on this board follow your style; which is why X's techniques make absolutely no sense to the majority of players here.

All the sonics here need to re evaluate their styles, and check out things for themselves. Dont just play a certain way because of the influence of the boards. Go figure ish out urselves. You can say all you want about style vs character. Ultimately the character has to have some decent options for his style to even stand a chance. Im sure you all saw things X failed to punish, theres more for us all to learn. Sonic isnt great, but he sure as hell isnt as bad as others portray him to be. Learn to punish properly; half the sonics here would be come instantly better if they knew how to truly punish with sonic instead of sitting in shield because you been told you have nothing but bad priority.

Dont even know why im writing this. Espy loves his trollin. I guess this was directed to the others. Good ish X; you always been solid. Just know BAM always believed lol. now step your swag up; ur still missin ish son. Hit me up when u come back 2 Cali

welp, when i was chillin in the sonic xat people in there were looking at his vids. As i continued to watch i kept insisting that X was using his spins as a means to not only keep momentum, but also as a means to space his attacks. tbh i dont think any sonic here is gonna true figure out Xs sonic unless they look past their own sonic style.

 

[Browny]

uhuh....

so hes keeping momentum by sitting still at the edge of the stage charging downb?

lol

 

[JayBee]

This is usually what I see people do to a sonic player charging down B who doesn't immediately let it go. Remember that the general responce to the spin dash strategy is to wait a good distance away and punish.

1) they prepare thier standard spacing to counter any immediate spindash (usually they first put thier shield up, ready to spotdodge or punish Oos when the attack connects)

2) If the sonic hasn't released by then, they tend to drop the shield and it gets harder to anticipate the attack since the expected time of release. (1-2 seconds after charge from what I've noticed) didn't happen) Usually they aren't patient enough to wait there regardless, because hold shield makes it weaker, limiting the possibilty of OoS options (you need to not get hit out of your shield duh) The most common responce from the opponent is to attempt to inch forward in an attempt to force the sonic to release it haphazardly. Alas, this is also a fake that sonic need not to go for.

3) IF sonic is still charging (5 seconds or more) the opponent almost always then attempts to become more proactive against sonic, hoping to strike before the release. What happens many times, is that the lag that sonic can punish reveals itself, OR what happens most of the time, Sonic releases and hits the opponent before they truly make up thier mind.

This is because all players stick to patterns of offence and defense, when they have the moves to do so safely and consistantly (marths for example will always be short hopping throwing out aerials in search of the quick responces from sonic, while they tend to walk more when actual mid-game processing is involved.)

I think most of the time when X is hitting them with those spins, he is catching them off gaurd as they are shifting thier strategies midgame. In all honesty, many options to use against a sonic, while good, have high priority n such, still require reaction time. So unless they are already a good distance away and set defensively, they are more like to get hit by the dash, or simply miss due to its speed, and less likely to properly punish all of sonic's spin dash followups.

At least this is my analysis of the scenario, for as long as I've watched it happen...

 

[Dark 3nergy]

hes building momentum!!!!1!


























and possibly mind gaming

 

[~TBS~]

Re-evaluate my style? You best believe I did when i saw that stuff.

All I do is stand still. Thats it, i camp. Time out. Play defensively. Because Vex told me i should play that way, and i listened. Sure, i'll still spincancel but not super crazy like, and i cant bring myself to spring dair. I just dont do any flashy stuff because...well, i dont feel comfortable doin it. Once i get a string of attacks going, i just follow up. But wont that mean i have pressuring issues? Wont one be trying too hard to focus on their own little show other than winning? X doesnt...he just does it and its freakin amazing.

I dont know about that Bam, not "a mojority" here plays like Espy. Every sonic plays different...or at least thats what i think. Like i explained, im super defensive. I run away. Eh, i dont know what to do anymore lol. Getting timed out by Lucario and not beating mk is annoying...so is 9th place. I cant go aggro because i just dont understand how to. I guess its up to me to figure that out huh...bleh. =/

/rant

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Watching this reminds me of my Sonic.

Dude use spins very wisely, as mentioned before, it helps your momentum. The spins are there for a reason, learn to fight with them.

 

[Kinzer]

Re-evaluate my style? You best believe I did when i saw that stuff.

All I do is stand still. Thats it, i camp. Time out. Play defensively. Because Vex told me i should play that way, and i listened. Sure, i'll still spincancel but not super crazy like, and i cant bring myself to spring dair. I just dont do any flashy stuff because...well, i dont feel comfortable doin it. Once i get a string of attacks going, i just follow up. But wont that mean i have pressuring issues? Wont one be trying too hard to focus on their own little show other than winning? X doesnt...he just does it and its freakin amazing.

I dont know about that Bam, not "a mojority" here plays like Espy. Every sonic plays different...or at least thats what i think. Like i explained, im super defensive. I run away. Eh, i dont know what to do anymore lol. Getting timed out by Lucario and not beating mk is annoying...so is 9th place. I cant go aggro because i just dont understand how to. I guess its up to me to figure that out huh...bleh. =/

/rant

Speed, get Kita to help you download Hisoutensoku and pick up Reisen like me.

You'll either learn to play offensively (because Reisen is not a defensive character at all), or you will continue to suck until otherwise (like me); because as mentioned earlier Reisen's strength lies in her pressuring. She's like Sonic where she is average at best in everything else but excels when she puts on the close-range assault.

If you're not willing to pick up a new game, then let me tell you why I think you have problems here and now.

Being Hellbent on camping and timing out people with Sonic is not the direct cause of your losses. It could be a myriad from there:

You may just not be camping correctly.

It may not be working is because you focus way too much on doing it and you forget that Sonic has other ways of going about things.

The other character may be able to deal with your camping and/or outcamps you.

I could go on, but the reasons may not be relevant or mean anything.

I usually have this problem myself when playing against Lucario for example. If I cannot get around his defenses, I will keep getting walled and I will eventually lose. The problem with this matchup is that Lucario has at least one answer to every of your approach, so if something is working against a good player it will not work for long. On top of that, his attacks are as strong as yours at first, and are the most punishing moves in this game if he is allowed to live long enough, in this case it only becomes more problematic trying to predict what he will do and force some kind of reaction to get him to attack and then leave a spot open for counter attack.

The matchup is certainly not unwinnable though (as far as I know up to this point in time), you just have to concentrate on being a much better player, being able to adapt when needed, and work on forcing your opponents to commit.

...Now that I look at it, playing Hisoutensoku and playing Reisen may not help you that much since she can really only do a few things, and not so much being able to do everything and make you think about what options are best for the moment. Still, I think if anything it may help with your excessive camping problem. Besides, I guess she plays like Sonic in the sense that she can still do everything, just not to the same degree as some other characters like Yuyuko for example; even if Yuyuko's melee pressure game is still nothing like that of a perfect Reisen's.

Edit: As for Meta Knight, you are on your own. I am not confident that my advice would help in any way concerning that flying @#$%er.

 

[Espy Rose]

This is usually what I see people do to a sonic player charging down B who doesn't immediately let it go. Remember that the general responce to the spin dash strategy is to wait a good distance away and punish.

1) they prepare thier standard spacing to counter any immediate spindash (usually they first put thier shield up, ready to spotdodge or punish Oos when the attack connects)

2) If the sonic hasn't released by then, they tend to drop the shield and it gets harder to anticipate the attack since the expected time of release. (1-2 seconds after charge from what I've noticed) didn't happen) Usually they aren't patient enough to wait there regardless, because hold shield makes it weaker, limiting the possibilty of OoS options (you need to not get hit out of your shield duh) The most common responce from the opponent is to attempt to inch forward in an attempt to force the sonic to release it haphazardly. Alas, this is also a fake that sonic need not to go for.

3) IF sonic is still charging (5 seconds or more) the opponent almost always then attempts to become more proactive against sonic, hoping to strike before the release. What happens many times, is that the lag that sonic can punish reveals itself, OR what happens most of the time, Sonic releases and hits the opponent before they truly make up thier mind.

Funny. Two of those three things are exactly what DOESN'T happen down here.
They drop the shield, then run away, because that's what you're supposed to do.

 

[Kuraudo]

I took Dojo to the last stock at fair percent.

Am I good, guys? .......... guys?


I've always followed my own way when it comes to playing Sonic. You all can try to replicate all you want, but I've simply taken techniques and approaches capable with Sonic (even 2008 Spin Dash & Spin Charge), and ran with them. I make this character my own.

 

[Espy Rose]

^^^^^^^^^^

Copypasta'ing X's strategy will only lead to failure. I guarantee it.
If you really want it, make a variant. Implement his style, and make it your own through subtle changes.

 

[Kuraudo]

^^^^^^^^^^

Following up, if you just Spin Dash/Spin Charge spam, if you rise up out of it like a lot have the tendency to do, you are easily punished by a back air or something if the opponent shielded through your approaches too.

This is why things such as an triple aerial spin charge into the shield/opponent were found. As well as Spinshot behind opponents into a back air to help secure crossing up behind them. Or even a simple dash attack. And don't forget SH-UAir OoS in close-quarters situations. Poking characters such as MK's DAir camping with timed UAirs inbetween are great too.

See? I'm just listing off my options, making them my own.

UThrow > Spring > UAir still works for me. Most of it being on either bad DI, and waiting for my opponent to air dodge and then whipping out UAir. There is one problem with this though. Spring chasing an opponent who could easily kill you up there (MK? Prime example. you overshoot and you're the one eating his UAir, DAir, or even a Tornado (epic set-up counter right there if they conveniently catch you. high-risk, good pay off to beat everything the Sonic has))

It's why for those that DI my UThrow, things evolved for me and I prefer using to spring chase with a BAir. Same result of a kill if they don't DI horizontally, less danger.

So many different things. Your weaknesses and strengths are all the same, but it's how you use them that counts.