Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[S2]

The only way I could possibly see them allowed (even then probably not) is in team, where you risk killing your own partner as well. But the tradeoff is that there are 2 opponents and 1 teamate, so in some scenarios it would be worth it to launch a FS that hits everyone.

But 1v1s? Probably not.

Especially at this point in the game. If you haven't played Brawl yet then its hard to comprehend just how powerful these things are. With certain characters, the FS is basically a free kill in 1v1s.

No one is at a high enough level playing Brawl yet where we know if the smashballs add more balance, or simply lobside the characters even more.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

You don't have to be at a high level in Brawl to know that Smash Balls should be turned off in tournaments.

 

[Ub3rB3n]

You don't have to be at a high level in Brawl to know that Smash Balls should be turned off in tournaments.

Yes you do, because no one has perfected the use of them or the avoidance of them.

Its just like when you started off playing smash and you had that friend that would tap a single button the whole time or use 1 move and he/she would own you because you have not gotten use to say the controls. If the people are true pros then they should be able to perfect the action in getting the smash ball and if they do lose to a so called "scrub" well then I doubt they are really "pros".

the smash balls are just another aspect of playing the game, another part that needs to be perfected.

Its actually like playing smash 64 and 5 minutes in, i am banning the use of donkey kong since he has a powerful punch and i just cant get away from it.

Smash balls should be allowed in the game for tournys because it add an extra "mountain" to the game that your going to have to get around.

There has to be some luck involved in the game it makes it that more interesting. Lets play some poker but instead of playing for chips we will just flip over our cards and then we can see what everyone has.

 

[Ub3rB3n]

sorry double post got an error first time >.>

 

[Endless Nightmares]

No. What is there to "perfect"? Get it, press B. Whoa, challenging. They're also just really unbalanced. Some characters have way better Final Smashes than others. Some are nearly impossible to avoid, while others are east to avoid. It's just not worth it.

Lets play some poker but instead of playing for chips we will just flip over our cards and then we can see what everyone has.

Yeah that's basically what you're doing when smash balls are turned on, lol

 

[fishsticks]

Keep in mind that (IIRC) if you get hit while you have the Smash Ball aura, you lose it. Also, if one player goes for the Smash Ball, the other player(s) can continue to attack, therefore either knocking the former away from the Smash Ball or making them lose the aura, as mentioned before.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

As soon as you hit B, you're instantly invincible. Trying to pressure somebody who has a smash aura is just suicidal.

Having said that, some Final Smashes, for the most part, are avoidable. Lucario's for example, can be avoided just by rolling/air dodging back and forth. Others are not. Kirby's final smash is incredibly cheap. You need to be FAAAR away from him if it's to be avoided. And then there's Olimar/Bowser/Falcon etc.

 

[squarez]

I hope not for tournies.

 

[Blackshadow]

It won't be set on for tournaments, no matter how much the noobs-who-won't-ever-go-to-said-tournaments complain.

 

[Yuna]

Can you prove that that would be the best way to play with smash balls on? If one person decided not to camp, do you believe that the other player could effectively camp for long enough for a smash ball to appear and have a bigger advantage than the other player at getting the smash ball?

Because that's what you do when you're waiting for an overpowered item to spawn? Heck, it doesn't have to be constant camping, they'll just have to constantly be looking out for it. And once it appears, all pretense of fighting will be forsaken for rushing it. And once one side has it, the other will be toast.

Ken vs. Azen - High level fighting. Super mindgames. And then Azen gets two FS:es in a row and Ken can never come back.

You pointed out that you had placed well at FC 6 and asked what major tournament Brightside went to and if he placed well... >_>

Again, I never said anything remotely close to "If you place well in tourneys, you must know a lot about the game".

I said (paraphrase) "FS:es will be totally broken in competitive play. I'm not talking about competitive play between you and your brother but between two highly skilled players." whereupon Brightside claimed he was The **** and I was a nobody because "he'd never heard of me".

No one is at a high enough level playing Brawl yet where we know if the smashballs add more balance, or simply lobside the characters even more.

Not true. People just don't listen.

Ever seen Brawl Marth? Powerful stuff. Top Tier. Ever seen Brawl Marth's FS?

 

[Ub3rB3n]

Ever seen Brawl Marth? Powerful stuff. Top Tier. Ever seen Brawl Marth's FS?

marths fs is alright but its not like its hard to dodge

as I said before there are going to be strategies making your way to getting the smash ball, and like you say, marths fs is cheap, well then don't let him get the smash ball easy solution

 

[jamai]

I thought I'd make a rare forum appearance and throw in my two cents as I have some experience with the game.

I have been playing the game a lot since the release and we started like all would-be brawlers with smashes on. We kept them on for a couple of days but like all brawlers I know of thusfar, they were just too obnoxious, seemingly random and game dominating and they were taken off. We put them back on a couple of times to give them another shot but they'd just end up off again.

I thought I'd share my personal thoughts on what drove us away from them. Keep in mind this is just our impression and nothing more.

1) They seem to appear in random places at random times. Obviously huge problems with this such as them appearing just when you kill your opponent, giving you a great chance to get a two stock lead. Even if one of these are true (them appearing at a set place or at a set time), they'd both have to be set to avoid the randomness which they don't appear to be.

2) We couldn't find too many patterns to the trajectories they take when getting hit or otherwise. They can move really quickly in one direction at times and stay in place at others. Sometimes you'll hit them and they'll fly straight into your opponent on the other end of the level.

3) Some final smashes just don't seem as good as others (Jigglypuff, DK, Peach, Dedede). As previously stated some seem to be too situational while others can almost always yield an instant advantage that appears to be equal or in some cases even greater than the situational ones. This just becomes another part of character balance if these characters turn out to be really good otherwise, but if they don't (they don't seem to) then they are only going to hinder some weakers characters more while strengthening some of the most popular at the moment (Marth, Spacies, Pit),

4) They actually aren't that fun. They are too potent and overbearing and while the rush for them can be interesting it just feels like it's taking away from the heart of the game and is just too distracting. Not to mention the smash ball makes the rest of the battle feel not as important, especially if you didn't get the smash ball for a seemingly random reason. It can put a huge damper on the actual battle.

All in all it really isn't looking good if our little group was any indicator. They seem to be pretty bad in serious 1v1s and I am betting 90% of the people who are defending them currently are going to have them off within a week of playing the game. It's one of those things that are just really obvious when you get hands on experience. Other items on? Maybe. Smash balls on? Doubtful. We started groaning after the first day when a smash ball would appear, especially when they decided matches by appearing on the wrong side or staying too high up for characters with poor jumps to reach them, or shooting across the level to your opponent even though you're sure you just hit it the other direcetion, or appearing right when you get smashed into a star ko, or playing a character like Dedede and cheering because you just dealt 20% damage meanwhile your opponent has ko'd you the last 25 times he got the smash ball with Wolf, Snake, Pit or Sonic.

Once again, just our opinion here but once you're on the butt end of a smash ball's aleatory a few times too many you may may share it really quickly.

 

[Yuna]

marths fs is alright but its not like its hard to dodge

as I said before there are going to be strategies making your way to getting the smash ball, and like you say, marths fs is cheap, well then don't let him get the smash ball easy solution

1) It's not that easy to dodge if you're in the air/stuck in a move/getting combod into it.
2) It's not cheap. It's game breaking.
3) You cannot solve the brokenness that is Marth's FS by saying "Just stop him from getting it every time". It's like giving Peach a one in 10 chance of pulling a Bob-omb (which you can combo it and will 1 Hit KO you) from Down B and saying that the solution is to simply never give her enough time to pull turnips.

I thought I'd make a rare forum appearance and throw in my two cents as I have some experience with the game.

[snipped]

I don't know who you are but you're smexy.

 

[ArgentStew]

Anyone know the amount of damage it takes to break the Smash Ball? If it's completely random, I can see it being banned pretty easily... Otherwise, it's entirely plausible to be used in tournament play, particularly as a source of balance for some characters, which we really didn't see much of in Melee...

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

I don't really like playing with them, but I would like to know how much damage they take to break open also.

 

[webrunner]

I keep hearing from pro players all these things about how 'random' and 'unfair' smash balls are, but I've never seen a single video which did anything but highlight how fair they are in terms of being able to get one. I've never seen a single video where one player got a smash ball due to unfair reasons. I have yet to see any proof that "he won just because he got a smash ball so it's unfair" is a coherent argument. It's like saying "he won just because he hit the other guy off the stage so it's unfair". The only times I've ever seen one player have a smash-ball-getting advantage were:
1. When they just killed the other guy, but when they respawn they have a few seconds of invincibility, which is enough to knock the ball out of them
2. On huge stages, which aren't tourney-legal anyway

From what I've seen in videos, and I admit this might be wrong, but It'd be nice if it is to see some proof, it's just not possible to get far enough away from someone for long enough to be able to grab a smash ball before the other person has a chance to get back and hit it themselves. And it's only the LAST hit on the smash ball that ever counts, so it doesnt matter who gets to the ball first. Again, I've never seen anyone get the smash ball for a "random reason" and I would like an example of this happening, they're fundamentally different then normal items in this regard.

As for Marth, I don't think anyone's really sure where on the tier list he's going to stand.. people say he plays the same but in videos he seems significantly worse in every respect. And his Final Smash is one of the only few non-transformation ones that can SD.

Whether the FSes are better than the others, this is obviously true in a lot of situations, but there are characters that have low-quality FSes and high-quality non-FS play, and vice versa. Lucas's FS isn't that good in a 1on1 setting but PK Thunder is great for actually getting a smash ball, so it sort of evens out.

 

[Yuna]

I keep hearing from pro players all these things about how 'random' and 'unfair' smash balls are, but I've never seen a single video which did anything but highlight how fair they are in terms of being able to get one. I've never seen a single video where one player got a smash ball due to unfair reasons.

Read through the last few pages... please.

It's not balanced just because they're available to everyone. It's random because the item spawns at random times, random intervalls and in random places.

I have yet to see any proof that "he won just because he got a smash ball so it's unfair" is a coherent argument. It's like saying "he won just because he hit the other guy off the stage so it's unfair". The only times I've ever seen one player have a smash-ball-getting advantage were:
1. When they just killed the other guy, but when they respawn they have a few seconds of invincibility, which is enough to knock the ball out of them
2. On huge stages, which aren't tourney-legal anyway

Because certain Final Smashes are just way too good they break the game. Competitive play will revolve around playing one out of 3-4 characters (out of 35) to even stand a chance to win if Smash Balls are on!

1. Yeah, you see, how come in Melee (and Brawl), people can manage to, you know, not get hit while the opponent is invincible? It's called mingames, running around and dodging. You also can't knock it out of them with weak attacks, so you'll have to somehow be able to run up to them and whack them with a smash or really strong aerial (or more than one move) for that.
2. So the solution is "If your opponent gets a Smash Ball, run and hide"? What if you're behind on stocks and percentage? You'll lose if the time runs out. Also, ever heard of the opponent pursuing you if you run away?

From what I've seen in videos, and I admit this might be wrong, but It'd be nice if it is to see some proof, it's just not possible to get far enough away from someone for long enough to be able to grab a smash ball before the other person has a chance to get back and hit it themselves. And it's only the LAST hit on the smash ball that ever counts, so it doesnt matter who gets to the ball first. Again, I've never seen anyone get the smash ball for a "random reason" and I would like an example of this happening, they're fundamentally different then normal items in this regard.[/quote]
Smash Ball spawns while the opponent is getting Star KO:ed. Marth grabs it, the opponent now faces another instant loss of stock. Random, unfair, unbalanced.

It doesn't matter if some characters have a much easier time getting the Smash ball. In fact, that makes it even more unbalanced. Also, the Smash Ball will apparently fly in random directions upon spawning and getting hit. Even if you hit away from your opponent, it could still simply fly towards your opponent for reasons unknown.

The crux of the matter is also mostly about what happens once someone gets a Final Smash? If they're Marth, Link or Toon Link, they win. If they're Mario, no biggie. That's where it becomes so unbalanced and gamebreaking we'll all be forced into playing Marth or someone else with a Top Tier FS as they appear so very often even on the lowest setting.

As for Marth, I don't think anyone's really sure where on the tier list he's going to stand.. people say he plays the same but in videos he seems significantly worse in every respect. And his Final Smash is one of the only few non-transformation ones that can SD.

Everyone else is worse in every aspect. Marth's just been barely nerfed, which makes him Top Tier Material! And then he's got that Final Smash!

He can only SD with it if he uses it in the air. Even if he's standing right next to the ledge, as long as he's on the ground, he'll stop once he reaches the edge. Only stupid players would SD using Marth's FS.

Whether the FSes are better than the others, this is obviously true in a lot of situations, but there are characters that have low-quality FSes and high-quality non-FS play, and vice versa. Lucas's FS isn't that good in a 1on1 setting but PK Thunder is great for actually getting a smash ball, so it sort of evens out.

And then there are characters like Marth who have high quality non-FS play (wow, what a catchy term) and a broken Final Smash. The competitive scene will devolve into everyone playing Marth or losing badly.

Before you reply to this, please read through the last 5 pages as we've already covered all of this... repeatedly.

 

[Talvi]

You people just forget that the smashball is an item. THe only difference it's just instead of, say, a Legendary Pokemon, or a non-broken hammer, you get an ability unique to your character. So what? It's still random power that appears around there and favours randomly to a player. So it reduces the amount of skill required, favoring randomness. Smashballs can't be allowed in competitive play.

 

[Yuna]

You people just forget that the smashball is an item. THe only difference it's just instead of, say, a Legendary Pokemon, or a non-broken hammer, you get an ability unique to your character. So what? It's still random power that appears around there and favours randomly to a player. So it reduces the amount of skill required, favoring randomness. Smashballs can't be allowed in competitive play.

You see, I've personally had to say this, I don't know, 12 times already. People just don't listen.

 

[Xyro77]

Trust me, they wont be allowed. too many FS are unavoidable.

 

[webrunner]

Read through the last few pages... please.

It's not balanced just because they're available to everyone. It's random because the item spawns at random times, random intervals and in random places.

Again, this gets said a lot, but I have never seen any proof that the spawn location of a smash ball has any affect on the game whatsoever other than people saying "it just does", that's all I'm asking for, an explanation of this point. Regardless of any other reasons you have, I just haven't yet heard a coherent argument as to how where a smash ball spawns matters the same way that it does, say, for a hammer. Whoever gets to a hammer first has the advantage. Whoever gets to a smash ball first does not.

The arguments end up going like this:

"IT spawns in random places!"
"So?"
"So.. it spawns in RANDOM PLACES!"
"And?"
"It.. SPAWNS in RANDOM places!"

I don't care if people ban smash balls or not, I just want the reasons to be clear and make sense. The first thing people always say is that they can spawn next to your opponent.

For what it's worth, I agree with banning items in tournaments. I think it's a shame that it has to be done, but it's too big of a random factor in the game.

But for smash balls.. basically we have the following issues, right?

1. They spawn at random locations
2. They spawn at random times
3. They move randomly
4. Some are more powerful than others


Nobody's yet explained why 1) matters. 2) i can see a problem but only rarely. 3) i'm not completely convinced of.. they move erratically but I've never seen a video where they moved in a way that really seemed unexpected.. i think there's something else at work. 4) is an issue of character balance, which is something that probably wont be fully understood for months. I don't doubt that Marth's FS is great, but is it enough to ban final smashes?

 

[A New Challenger]

I HAVEN'T ACTUALLY PLAYED THE GAME YET.

Your wall of text seemed to have sprung a leak or two, but I fix'd it for you there, son.

 

[Yuna]

webrunner: Nobody's yet explained why [randomness] matters [in competitive play].

Your post failed here (among many places, it just failed cataclysmically here). I shall now ignore all of your future posts unless I find you've actually learned to employ logical thinking.

 

[flyinfilipino]

@webrunner: Random spawning items are looked down upon in tournaments because they might benefit/hurt one player more than another.

 

[Yuna]

@webrunner: Random spawning items are looked down upon in tournaments because they might benefit/hurt one player more than another.

That's not it. They're looked down upon because they're random. I can be beating you into a pulp, though, without any input from my input or myself (hence nobody did anything "deserve it" or was able to do anything to "prevent it"), an overpowered item spawns right next to my opponent. He picks it up and he's immediately got the advantage.

 

[flyinfilipino]

That's not it. They're looked down upon because they're random. I can be beating you into a pulp, though, without any input from my input or myself (hence nobody did anything "deserve it" or was able to do anything to "prevent it"), an overpowered item spawns right next to my opponent. He picks it up and he's immediately got the advantage.

And because they're random, they can benefit one player more than the other. Uh huh...

 

[Gedennnnn]

You people just forget that the smashball is an item. THe only difference it's just instead of, say, a Legendary Pokemon, or a non-broken hammer, you get an ability unique to your character. So what? It's still random power that appears around there and favours randomly to a player. So it reduces the amount of skill required, favoring randomness. Smashballs can't be allowed in competitive play.

When you go to hit it has to be hit more than once to get it, and it floats around aimlessly not favoring one player more than it does another. When you attack the smash ball its goes flying in the direction you hit it also. It will be allowed in competitive play because its a form of balance to characters and it itself its pretty balanced on how you get it. If anything you have to have a lot more skill than the other player to get the smash ball before them. It's like banning a hyper combo from MvC2. If you earn the item you should get to use it.

 

[Yuna]

When you go to hit it has to be hit more than once to get it, and it floats around aimlessly not favoring one player more than it does another. When you attack the smash ball its goes flying in the direction you hit it also. It will be allowed in competitive play because its a form of balance to characters and it itself its pretty balanced on how you get it. If anything you have to have a lot more skill than the other player to get the smash ball before them. It's like banning a hyper combo from MvC2. If you earn the item you should get to use it.

For the love of puppies. It sometimes flies in a random direction and not the one you hit it in, some characters have a much easier time getting it (even though their blows might not be the strongest), which is unbalanced.

Some characters need less hits to grab it while others are just too fast for certain characters to be able to beat them to the Smash Ball. Certain characters are also exceptionally well at keeping their opponents at bay (away from the Smash Ball) while also whacking it to grab it. People with projectiles have a clear advantage as you can grab it simply by hitting it with a projectile.

And the problem is not how you get it, the problem is that once you get it, it's overpowered and gamebreaking for some and useless for others. Lucario will almost never hit with his and Marth can combo into his One Hit KO-move.

It's also random because it spawn in a random spot. You're on the other side of the stage, it spawns next to me, I hit it three times before you can get close enough to stop me. Or I hit it once so it flies behind me, then keep you away from it and hit it again and grab it.

Or you're currently recovery because I sent you flying. While you're doing this, a Smash Ball spawns next to me. I manage to grab it before you make it back and can stop me. You're now facing a Final Smash.

Or, you're dying of a Star KO (takes time). Meanwhile, a Smash Ball spawns above me. I grab it before you have enough time to respawn, get off the platform and stop me.

Likely scenarios that will most probably occur quite frequently that will be entirely random- and luckbased that will break competitive play.

This has all been said again and again already.

I urge all future posters in this thread: Read through the old posts before posting anything "new" as chances are, what you're posting has probably already been argued, sometimes to death.

 

[Bibbed]

After reading through most of this thread, it's pretty apparent that people who played Melee competitively (tournament) agree that Smash Balls are unfair and those didn't (typically) think they should be on. I'm all for the sake of argument, but the competitive players are far and away going to have a better idea of what is and is not fair. Personally, I think it's so obvious that they should be turned off that it's barely worth discussing, but I do appreciate Yuna (among others) trying to reason with those for the use of Smash Balls, rather than just ignoring them like 99% of the competitive community will do.

 

[yoshi_fan]

But, why not ban marth. he is looking game-breaking without and with smash balls...

Aniway, items were banned because of the explosive crates, not because of the random factor.

Anyway, i hoped to TRY this new feature before BANNING it. Is it too hard?

Let's try it in a tournament or two and THEN we make a decision, shall we?

 

[Yuna]

But, why not ban marth. he is looking game-breaking without and with smash balls...

Because without the Final Smash, he's not gamebreaking. He'll surely be Top Tier, sure. But there'll still be characters able to beat him both among the other Top Tiers and below.

Aniway, items were banned because of the explosive crates, not because of the random factor.

Explosive containers was one of the reasons. Albeit the largest reason, there were also the fact that some items are way too overpowered (hence they had to be banned) and the fact that they spawn randomly, giving a clear advantage for no risk or effort at random. A player could go through a match being the superior player but should all the good items spawn next to his opponent, he'd still be at a clear disadvantage.

Anyway, i hoped to TRY this new feature before BANNING it. Is it too hard?

Guess who've tried it.

Let's try it in a tournament or two and THEN we make a decision, shall we?

Why should we? Should we not just test it out during controlled forms, determine whether or not it's way too broken to be allowed and then leave it at that? Not everything has to be tested out in tournaments first to determine whether or not they have to be banned.

Or are you saying we should try having all Brawl stages on in tournaments first before banning any?
Some FS:es are so broken it's obvious to anyone who's a competitive player that they have to be banned.

 

[Crushed]

Maybe if people just got good at using the "useless" FSs there wouldn't be such of a problem.

 

[HeroAnri]

i dont get what part of "no items in tournuments" you dont understand

 

[Yuna]

Maybe if people just got good at using the "useless" FSs there wouldn't be such of a problem.

You cannot "get good" at using something useless. We're not aguing a match where Ken's using Peach's FS vs. a n00b spamming Marth's FS.

We're talking about hypothetical tournament matches between two highly competitive players. No matter how good a player is, he can never negate the gap between Marth's FS and, say, Lucario's FS.

There's no possible way to "become good" at using Lucario's FS because it's so very easily dodged.

 

[Crushed]

You cannot "get good" at using something useless. We're not aguing a match where Ken's using Peach's FS vs. a n00b spamming Marth's FS.

We're talking about hypothetical tournament matches between two highly competitive players. No matter how good a player is, he can never negate the gap between Marth's FS and, say, Lucario's FS.

There's no possible way to "become good" at using Lucario's FS because it's so very easily dodged.

It's only "useless" because you haven't gotten good at it.

 

[Jael Irish]

It's only "useless" because you haven't gotten good at it.

Have you been to a tournament...EVER?

Have you ever played against an actual decent smash player...?

Take the advice from people who have A) Played the game and B) Been to tournaments

 

[Crushed]

Have you been to a tournament...EVER?

Have you ever played against an actual decent smash player...?

Take the advice from people who have A) Played the game and B) Been to tournaments

And they should try to practice getting good at it before calling it "impossible" and jumping up and down screaming that it cannot be done in any conceivable way.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Even is it obvious, items were going to be obviously banned from tournaments, but they stilll were tried. It's not like 100$, only, try it in a tournament or two. Even side tournaments at major tournaments.

Try it, and then decide.

(And ban marth from these tournaments also)

 

[Jael Irish]

Nobody is saying smashballs are just the most ******** thing in the game, thats not whats going on here. Its not an argument about whats fun and whats not, its a discussion about what is best for the play of competitive tournaments, thats all.

Not every competitive player wants them out, but its really not what you want its whats for the best of competitive play, and for the best to happen I'm afraid to tell you but smashballs just have to go.

One of my own theories (thats all it is right now) is, it will not be conductive to competitive play, how you ask? Combos are effective because they add up to % and eventually knock a player out, thats the object right, but if you add in a smashball i honestly don't see how I would need an ultra combo when i could just learn how to beat you until a smashball arrives and eventually take it from you and kick your *** with a landmaster. Its a completely different game when you add in something like a smashball, people play different, the one vs one pure skill just will not feel the same, people will be more worried about what happens when a floating orb of godlyness appears on the screen.

 

[Yuna]

It's only "useless" because you haven't gotten good at it.

Let's see... we have Lucario's which takes 2 seconds to start, so it won't ever surprise anyone. You have all the time in the world to run away to a spot where it won't hit you.

It's a giant beam which, once it starts, gives you enough time to, even if it goes straight at you, jump away. You can easily jump, double jump and then Up B out of the way. It's virtually impossible to hit with Lucario's Final Smash if your opponent is any good at all.

Lucas' and Ness' Final Smashes also take a long time to activate. A bunch of PK Thunder Thingies rain down from the sky. They're large, but slow and the gaps between each one is so huge you can literally stand on the same spot and have them all miss. Even if you're hit, you'll only take nominal damage (like, 15-20%) and almost no knockback whatsoever.

Peach's Final Smash only puts enemies that are on the stage to sleep. It won't even put enemies that are hanging on the ledge to sleep. Once she activates it, immediately jump, double jump and then Up B. If you're really close to her, the FS will also dish out 49%. If you're not close to her, you'll only get 10% of damage. Afterwards, there'll even be peaches out for you to eat if you didn't fall asleep. And even if you do fall asleep, it's not that much of a biggie because there's no possible way Peach can KO a grounded character below 130%. So if you're in the range of 0-110%, yeah, nothing to worry about, at all.

Mario's fireball inflicts approximately a maximum of 30-40% of damage and won't KO you 'til you have around 140% and even then you can probably smash DI out of it since it just pushes you off the stage.

Snake's isn't that hard to dodge since it's so slow (each round he fires).

Should I go on? These have no magical setups, no way to randomly KO people at 0% or even at 50% and they cannot be comboed into. They're next to useless, especially if your opponent is any good.

Even is it obvious, items were going to be obviously banned from tournaments, but they stilll were tried. It's not like 100$, only, try it in a tournament or two. Even side tournaments at major tournaments.

Try it, and then decide.

(And ban marth from these tournaments also)

It wasn't so obvious back then. Remember, this was years ago when the Smash community was largely scrubby and n00by. We've learned and grown now with 6+ years of Melee. We've come to learn what balance and fairness means and we've grown to limit anything that relies on luck or imbalances the game.

And FS are extremely obviously overpowered and imbalanced (and quasi-random).