Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[Bibbed]

The system is very game changing and we will have to change a lot from how we played in melee tournaments but this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'm not flaming your post, I promise. There's just no way Smash Balls will ever be used in tournament, so I really don't think anyone is going to be adapting to them. This thread itself is more for just the sake of argument. If you took a survey of strictly pro players, I'd be surprised if one of them was in favor of the use of Smash Balls.

 

[NES n00b]

I'm not flaming your post, I promise. There's just no way Smash Balls will every be used in tournament, so I really don't think anyone is going to be adapting to them. This thread itself is more for just the sake of argument. If you took a survey of strictly pro players, I'd be surprised if one of them was in favor of the use of Smash Balls.

I am super pro and I say we keep them since they have pretty colors. End of discussion.

 

[TheKoopaBros.]

I understand that some strategy could into play with breaking the small bash and pulling off a Final Attack most effectively.


... but Samus' Final Smash KO'd Sonic at 58% in the Gamespot interview video. Sonic wasn't even near the edge when it happened; he was firmly planted at the center of the stage.

Then look at Peaches. grab lots of items that heal 5% health, nail your sleeping opponent with a smash before they wake up, and grab even more health while they fly away.



Point is, Final Smashes are MEANT to be game breaking. They're supposed to create turnovers to keep things interesting for casual players wanting more random chaos. That comes at the expense of making how you play otherwise matter for less. In other words, the 70% damage leg-up you worked hard for matters for nothing once a smash ball pops in. Whoever gets that most likely gets the kill (or a free comeback/advance).


That alone is enough to keep them out of the tournament scene. Add to that the random spawing, semi-random trajectory and it's a deal breaker.

This is pretty much my opinion on the issue as well. There's just way too much inconsistancy in strengths and weaknesses of the Final Smashes. People might only play Peach or Marth just because of the advantage the FS item has regardless of the character skill, which I don't agree with.

Casually I'm fine with it.

 

[Yuna]

Well, for starters, you might want to not lie through your teeth about what I've said.

Behold the magic of "Using your own words against you"

I've read everything in the thread, I never said "Because I say so!"

"I told you. Practice and learn how to use them when they're in a good position to be used." - Ok, and this will magically gives us sure-fire ways to combo into Lucario's FS how? Because you said so? Despite anyone who's played the game saying "No, will never happen"?

I never made assumptions, I never said that they sucked at the game or were bad players, I never said that you could make or ensure any attack hits (that's an odd claim you've given to me out of nowhere, given that it's an impossibility).

* "It's not my fault if you can't play Smash Bros. Try a different game if you don't know how to play this one."
* How is it ironic. I see no problem using them effectively, he can't see any way to use them at all. (claiming Lucario's FS can be used effectively)
* Maybe if people just got good at using the "useless" FSs there wouldn't be such of a problem. - Repeatedly claiming you can actually "get good" at using the useless attacks (like Ganondorf's F-tilt could ever be used well)
* It's only "useless" because you haven't gotten good at it.
* So just use them when you can hit people with them - Despite me telling you repeatedly that there is no possible time to use Lucario's FS "when you can hit people with them" unless they're braindead.

And I've told you all along. It's not a matter of a special technique. It's just knowing when to use them properly. That's all I've said the whole time.

This is:
* Assuming there's a "right way" to use them properly despite the fact that you've never played the game yourself.
* Assuming there's a "right way" to use them properly despite the fact that anyone who's played the game disagrees.
* Assuming there's a "right way" to use them properly despite the fact if you just take a friggin look at a video of Lucario's FS, it'll become crystal clear that there is no "way to use it properly".

 

[Crushed]

I did? I wrote out scenarios where it became obvious certain Final Smashes are so useless they can never hit smart players.

Ah yes, there's that word again. Obvious.

Yeah, there is none. Just because you say there is does not mean there is. Shut up and go away, I've lost all patience with you.

None? So, there's no time when the opponent is in range of those Final Smashes. Really? None? For attacks with such long ranges, I'm surprised.

Because you can't read? Explain to me a single scenario where Lucario's FS would hit anyone with a brain.

Lucario knocks his opponent down, and aims the beam at him, and follows him by aiming the beam. I know you think it's impossible for this to happen, but it can. Depending on the level, they may be trapped by the terrain, or roll into the FS by accident. Besides, a 10-second period of invincibility where you're spraying an aimable character-wide death beam doesn't exactly strike me as useless. It could allow Lucario to reach the upper level of a stage, allowing them to escape someone who's good on the ground but bad with upper and aerial attacks, and prepare for a counter attack. There's lots of uses.

No they don't. Some attacks are just useless. Just because it's a fighting game doesn't mean every single attack in the game has a use. Who the hell made use of Ganondorf's F-tilt? Point me towards a single player who's made good use of it consistently instead of randomly lucking out and hitting with it.

I'm sorry, but as long as they can hit opponents and cause damage, they cannot be useless. It is impossible.

.

I'm sorry, but you're still lying about what I said and saying that it's "obvious" that I'm wrong.

 

[SamDvds]

How many people in here arguing this have even competed in more than 2 or 3 melee tournaments? because those who weren't apart of the competitive scene in melee, cant possibly understand the importance of balance and ensuring the results of tournaments should be based on skill not random luck. It sounds to me like some ppl participating in this argument have never even faced pro tourneys, and they're reasoning for ''what is fair in tournaments'' isn't logical if they've never played in one.

*edit* raise your hand if you would be willing to gamble a $15 entry fee on the possibility that you may lose a match to a final smash.

 

[Yuna]

This is pretty much my opinion on the issue as well. There's just way too much inconsistancy in strengths and weaknesses of the Final Smashes. People might only play Peach or Marth just because of the advantage the FS item has regardless of the character skill, which I don't agree with.

Casually I'm fine with it.

Peach's Final Smash sucks. It won't hit players in the air. And when did anyone ever get KO:ed from falling asleep? Peach has no moves that can KO people below 130% so they have to have quite a lot of damage first in order for her to KO them. Heck, the peaches can even be eaten by the opponent if they didn't fall asleep.

It's nowhere near Marth-level.

what game are you playing wimpy brawl? almost everytime iv hit someone with star storm it has killed them there is going to be exceptions if it is a big stage but on general stages there is a high chance of dying when getting hit by 1 and now if you get hit by 1 and then by another bam your done

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2HU_AJbx10Q

05:00 - Barely any knockback whatsoever at 0%. You need a lot of damage to actually KO someone (especially WI DI) off of a PK Storm.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Geez, I said nothing about supporting Smash balls. They break the flow of play, Samus is screwed, and their spawn and break points are too random. I happen to think that some being weaker than others is irrelevant (to the reasons why Smashballs mean nothing in tourney play), and furthermore you're exaggerating their brokeness, to take leaf from your angry bolding.

Marth's FS isn't as nearly as broken as you make it out to be. It can be easily sidestepped, it can even be super armor'd, and god forbid you screw up any combos you make in the air, because if Marth misses in the air he's dead (I've seen videos of all three instances). I think Super Sonic is a bigger threat Smashball wise than Marth is, especially since he can save himself AND turn entire matches around (I have done so myself). But even he has a weakness (ridiculously hard to control and can be spot-dodged easily). I say this not because Smash balls should be relevant but because you're really exaggerating some character's powers.

 

[Yuna]

Ah yes, there's that word again. Obvious.

To anyone with a brain, anyway.

None? So, there's no time when the opponent is in range of those Final Smashes. Really? None? For attacks with such long ranges, I'm surprised.

They can be in range as much as they want to. The startup animation (do you know what that is) is so slow that even if they are in range, if they're at least decent, they'll still have enough time to make it miss.

Lucario knocks his opponent down, and aims the beam at him, and follows him by aiming the beam.

You cannot knock your opponent down and get the beam out fast enough to hit them. It's that slow. You also can't really aim the beam that well. Especially not when it first comes out.

I know you think it's impossible for this to happen, but it can. Depending on the level, they may be trapped by the terrain, or roll into the FS by accident.

Name one such stage. People rolling into FS:es by accident? Is this how you base how good moves are, people rolling into them by accident?!

Besides, a 10-second period of invincibility where you're spraying an aimable character-wide death beam doesn't exactly strike me as useless. It could allow Lucario to reach the upper level of a stage, allowing them to escape someone who's good on the ground but bad with upper and aerial attacks, and prepare for a counter attack. There's lots of uses.

Not very aimable. Very slow to move. Not 10 seconds. Lucario also lags afterwards, it's not a setup for anything.

I'm sorry, but as long as they can hit opponents and cause damage, they cannot be useless. It is impossible.

The thing is that they'll never hit anyone good unless they screw up royally, as opposed to Marth's which can be comboed into from 7 or so of his moves.

How good was Ganondorf's Up-Tilt in Melee (and now in Brawl)? That's right, useless because it never hits anyone unless they're stupid or make a colossal mistake.

I'm sorry, but you're still lying about what I said and saying that it's "obvious" that I'm wrong.

I haven't lied about what you said. I just quoted you saying the exact same things.

It's only obvious to those who use their brains.

 

[Team Giza]

If you took a survey of strictly pro players, I'd be surprised if one of them was in favor of the use of Smash Balls.

Well DUH. Cause they are used to the game being without any sort of item. Of coarse they would want it to play sorta similarly to melee in tournaments.

How many people in here arguing this have even competed in more than 2 or 3 melee tournaments? because those who weren't apart of the competitive scene in melee, cant possibly understand the importance of balance and ensuring the results of tournaments should be based on skill not random luck. It sounds to me like some ppl participating in this argument have never even faced pro tourneys, and they're reasoning for ''what is fair in tournaments'' isn't logical if they've never played in one.

I've played in quite a few local smash tournaments. Though I have actually been attending them less and less since they have been moving farther north and that they have banned the ice climber's grab infinite which gives me less of a reason to go.

*edit* raise your hand if you would be willing to gamble a $15 entry fee on the possibility that you may lose a match to a final smash.

*raises hand* As of now I have not seen it be bad enough. I think they are very game controllingly powerful but I do not think it is time for us to ban them universally unless we are sure there is no way to find away around this and play matches are played with some sort of consistency in the winner.

 

[Yuna]

Marth's FS isn't as nearly as broken as you make it out to be. It can be easily sidestepped, it can even be super armor'd, and god forbid you screw up any combos you make in the air, because if Marth misses in the air he's dead (I've seen videos of all three instances). I think Super Sonic is a bigger threat Smashball wise than Marth is, especially since he can save himself AND turn entire matches around (I have done so myself). But even he has a weakness (ridiculously hard to control and can be spot-dodged easily). I say this not because Smash balls should be relevant but because you're really exaggerating some character's powers.

1) You cannot spotdodge if you're getting comboed into it.
2) You cannot spotdodge in the air (meaning you can never be in the air within range of a grounded Marth). Your airdodge has startup frames.
3) Smart players don't spam it in the air and KO themselves.
4) Super Sonic does not 1 Hit KO you. He needs to actually get some damage up first.

When I say it's broken, I'm talking about what if a good player is wielding Marth, not a bad to mediocre one who doesn't even know how to use him or his Final Smash properly and who immediately uses their FS the minute the opponent is even remotely within range.

What is your counter to Fair to FS? D-tilt to FS? U-tilt to FS? Jab to FS? Dair to FS? F-tilt to FS? Nair to FS? (dependant on character, percentage and position but those are all valid combos).

Then we have Link and Toon Link who even have projectiles to combo into their FS:es.

 

[Crushed]

Okay Yuna, you know what? Fine. You have your security blanket. If anyone ever beats you with a Final Smash like that, they must have been a cheater. In the same fantasy world where I said I knew how to make attacks hit their targets, and where I talked about comboing into things, and all of the other imaginary statements you think I made.

You might want to get some psychiatric help about that. You seem to have anger issues about people coming to different conclusions as you do, or thinking differently than you, or not agreeing that you're 100% right about everything based on two weeks worth of playing a game.

 

[TheKoopaBros.]

Peach's Final Smash sucks. It won't hit players in the air. And when did anyone ever get KO:ed from falling asleep? Peach has no moves that can KO people below 130% so they have to have quite a lot of damage first in order for her to KO them. Heck, the peaches can even be eaten by the opponent if they didn't fall asleep.

It's nowhere near Marth-level.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=2HU_AJbx10Q

05:00 - Barely any knockback whatsoever at 0%. You need a lot of damage to actually KO someone (especially WI DI) off of a PK Storm.

Still if you can connect you can easily recover all your health and have a good chance of KO'ing people at the right percents. I forgot about Peach's reduced knockback.

It may have been a bad example but I meant that a lot of FS could be heavily abused, and others would be almost useless.

 

[Yuna]

I still don't see that as a game breaking aspect. It just changes it up a bit. Who cares if you are constantly looking for the smash ball too appear? It just becomes part of the game.

You know the smash ball will appear randomly and thus you will always want to stay at a certain distance from the opponent so he is never too much closer to the smash ball than you. The smash ball takes multiple hits as well so you should be able to catch up to you opponent before they break it and would be able to punish them after they attack/break the smashball but before they can use their final smash thus having the ability to knock it out of them.

Is it game changing? Hell yes. Is it something you are going to base a lot of your game around? Hell yes. Is it something random enough to cause a ban around? I don't think it seems like it is. The system is very game changing and we will have to change a lot from how we played in melee tournaments but this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Yeah, and then there's the random aspect that it might spawn while the opponent is absolutely incapable of preventing you to get to it.

And the fact that certain FS:es are useles, the majority of them are mediocre and a select few are so good they break the game.

 

[Egret]

Okay Yuna, you know what? Fine. You have your security blanket. If anyone ever beats you with a Final Smash like that, they must have been a cheater. In the same fantasy world where I said I knew how to make attacks hit their targets, and where I talked about comboing into things, and all of the other imaginary statements you think I made.

You might want to get some psychiatric help about that. You seem to have anger issues about people coming to different conclusions as you do, or thinking differently than you, or not agreeing that you're 100% right about everything based on two weeks worth of playing a game.

good arguements thar....

Seriously though, the fact that you didn't mention comboing into FS doesn't make it impossible. And your second paragraph is just silly.

 

[Yuna]

Okay Yuna, you know what? Fine. You have your security blanket. If anyone ever beats you with a Final Smash like that, they must have been a cheater. In the same fantasy world where I said I knew how to make attacks hit their targets, and where I talked about comboing into things, and all of the other imaginary statements you think I made.

The problem is not that it can be done. The problem is that only a select few characters can do it while others cannot do anything remotely as good. This is so unbalanced it's next to impossible to win unless you play one of the select few who can do it.

Do you have any grasp of balance? It's not a balanced game if only 2-3 out of 35 characters are remotely playable if you want to win!

You might want to get some psychiatric help about that. You seem to have anger issues about people coming to different conclusions as you do, or thinking differently than you, or not agreeing that you're 100% right about everything based on two weeks worth of playing a game.

I hate stupidity. You seem incapable of grasping simple concepts such as "How to aim", "How to hit", "How to combo" and "Balance".

You also seem incapable of accepting that you have never played the game and that virtually any player who's played the game agrees with me, FS:es should not be on in tournaments, be they casual or competitive players.

You also seem incapable of ever pontificating, explaining your arguments. Instead you just say "You can do it! I'm sure of it! I won't go into detail about it. If you can't figure it out yourself, you're a bad player."

 

[Teeb147]

After playing alot, Im opposed to smash balls, they arent meant for competitive play.

 

[MookieRah]

@Crushed
Dude, seriously. There is virtually no situation where Lucario's FS would work. There is enough time before the attack starts that even if they were knocked down or what have you, they would still be able to get away from the blast. It's simply not a good FS. Yeah, every once in a blue moon you *might* hit this magical circumstance that allows it to be used, but that won't be enough. Overall it's a rather garbage FS that doesn't help much, and there are others with incredibly amazing FS's that can destroy stocks.

You seemingly don't want to accept the fact that some FS's just aren't good. Why is it so hard for you to realize this?

 

[Team Giza]

Yeah, and then there's the random aspect that it might spawn while the opponent is absolutely incapable of preventing you to get to it.

Well then you don't get caught in that situation. Do items still spawn on somewhat of a timer like in melee? If so, if the time is approaching for an item like a smash ball to appear you can do whatever it takes to not be put in the situation when you cannot stop then.

And the fact that certain FS:es are useles, the majority of them are mediocre and a select few are so good they break the game.

Balance has nothing to do with competitive play. Look at Street Fighter 3 Third Strike and Marvel vs Capcom 2. Horrible balance throughout the characters, great competitive scene.
---
I don't think anyone is going to read my last post since it was on the end of the page and those ones never seen to be responded to
---

If you took a survey of strictly pro players, I'd be surprised if one of them was in favor of the use of Smash Balls.

Well DUH. Cause they are used to the game being without any sort of item. Of coarse they would want it to play sorta similarly to melee in tournaments. Not even because they want to win, they are just used to it and think thats how all competitive smash must be played... but this isn't necessarily true.

How many people in here arguing this have even competed in more than 2 or 3 melee tournaments? because those who weren't apart of the competitive scene in melee, cant possibly understand the importance of balance and ensuring the results of tournaments should be based on skill not random luck. It sounds to me like some ppl participating in this argument have never even faced pro tourneys, and they're reasoning for ''what is fair in tournaments'' isn't logical if they've never played in one.

I've played in quite a few local smash tournaments. Though I have actually been attending them less and less since they have been moving farther north and that they have banned the ice climber's grab infinite which gives me less of a reason to go.

*edit* raise your hand if you would be willing to gamble a $15 entry fee on the possibility that you may lose a match to a final smash.

*raises hand* As of now I have not seen it be bad enough. I think they are very game controllingly powerful but I do not think it is time for us to ban them universally unless we are sure there is no way to find away around this and play matches are played with some sort of consistency in the winner.

 

[Yuna]

@Crushed
Dude, seriously. There is virtually no situation where Lucario's FS would work. There is enough time before the attack starts that even if they were knocked down or what have you, they would still be able to get away from the blast. It's simply not a good FS. Yeah, every once in a blue moon you *might* hit this magical circumstance that allows it to be used, but that won't be enough. Overall it's a rather garbage FS that doesn't help much, and there are others with incredibly amazing FS's that can destroy stocks.

You seemingly don't want to accept the fact that some FS's just aren't good. Why is it so hard for you to realize this?

Hi, Mookie! *waves*

Question: Did you read through the last 5 pages? Please do. It'll be an... interesting read.

 

[NES n00b]

Hi, Mookie! *waves*

Question: Did you read through the last 5 pages? Please do. It'll be an... interesting read.

You can't talk to Mookie that way!!!!!

You have to get appointments and stuff. I should know.

Edit: plus, you have to bow down to his awesomeness and praise his good dudenesss.

 

[MookieRah]

@Yuna
I have, and it makes my head hurt :-(.

@NES N00b
LOL "good dudeness" XD.

 

[Nuvia]

To anyone with a brain, anyway.

It's only obvious to those who use their brains.

Okay Yuna, you know what? Fine. You have your security blanket. If anyone ever beats you with a Final Smash like that, they must have been a cheater. In the same fantasy world where I said I knew how to make attacks hit their targets, and where I talked about comboing into things, and all of the other imaginary statements you think I made.

You know, it's rather childish that you two have to resort to personal insults to make your arguments.

 

[Bibbed]

I don't think anyone is going to read my last post since it was on the end of the page and those ones never seen to be responded to

A lot of posters (including myself) have it set to 40 posts per page, so it was quite visible. And competitive players have the most experience so they would know best, which is why their opinions should be valued above other, less experienced ones.

 

[Yuna]

Well then you don't get caught in that situation. Do items still spawn on somewhat of a timer like in melee? If so, if the time is approaching for an item like a smash ball to appear you can do whatever it takes to not be put in the situation when you cannot stop then.

You cannot help it if the Smash Ball spawns above your opponent and not you. Even if you're on the lookout for it.

Balance has nothing to do with competitive play. Look at Street Fighter 3 Third Strike and Marvel vs Capcom 2. Horrible balance throughout the characters, great competitive scene.

How large is the MvC2 scene? Not that big. And the two games are hardly comparable to Marth with a Final Smash. The game literally devolves into everyone having to play Marth in order to have even a remote chance of winning if FS:es are turned on. In 3rd Strike (I do not play MvC2), at least the Top Tiers have matchups that are 5-5 or 4-5 that are outside of the Top Tier. Marth would be unchallenged in God Tier. Competitive Brawling would be all about everyone playing Marth (and possibly Toon Link and Link if they can find good non-FS use for them anywhere near Marth's level).

*raises hand* As of now I have not seen it be bad enough. I think they are very game controllingly powerful but I do not think it is time for us to ban them universally unless we are sure there is no way to find away around this and play matches are played with some sort of consistency in the winner.

Have you played the game? Experienced how certain FS:es overshadow others and break the game? Seen or experienced how good Marth is already without an FS?

 

[Taekmkm]

There should be Warnings given if I see "From what I've seen" as their play experience.

 

[Ub3rB3n]

Peach's Final Smash sucks. It won't hit players in the air. And when did anyone ever get KO:ed from falling asleep? Peach has no moves that can KO people below 130% so they have to have quite a lot of damage first in order for her to KO them. Heck, the peaches can even be eaten by the opponent if they didn't fall asleep.

It's nowhere near Marth-level.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=2HU_AJbx10Q

05:00 - Barely any knockback whatsoever at 0%. You need a lot of damage to actually KO someone (especially WI DI) off of a PK Storm.

that was most obvious a scuff, just like the new aspact that brawl has added you can get scuffed but you will not get affected, when you actually hit someone with it, it does major damage.

Have you actually played brawl...

 

[Yuna]

You know, it's rather childish that you two have to resort to personal insults to make your arguments.

I was civil for a good 6 pages... where he ignored all of my arguments in favour of "I say it can be done, so all your arguments are invalid" and where he also said that I am a bad Smash player because I can't work out a strategy he claims exists (that doesn't actually exist).

So, yeah, my patience ran out. Can you blame me?

 

[NES n00b]

A pretty good point

No U!!!!!! Your dumb.

So yeah, FSes would make the game really imbalanced, a more campy affair, and they have random elements to them. Denying this is like denying you are terrible at Melee, because you know you are.

Edit: Though Crushed was really annoying. >_< I would insult much faster than Yuna for sure lol.

 

[MookieRah]

You know, it's rather childish that you two have to resort to personal insults to make your arguments.

Have you seen what Crushed has been saying? He has been arguing against Yuna for about 5 pages with no substance, and only recently just argued "hypothetical situations." The guy is amazingly frustrating, and I'm surprised at how long Yuna kept from making personal insults for this long.

Thick headed and ignorant individuals shouldn't be a part of a serious discussion of any sort. I recommend just ignoring them from here on out, even if it is so tempting to beat them with the logic stick.

 

[Yuna]

that was most obvious a scuff, just like the new aspact that brawl has added you can get scuffed but you will not get affected, when you actually hit someone with it, it does major damage.

Oh, you mean, sweetspot vs. non-sweetspot? Trust me, a sweetspotted PK Storm will not KO someone at 20% unless they're already off the stage. Certain other FS:es will.

Additionally, PK Storm cannot be comboed into, is easily dodgable and rollable (you even see the casual players in the video do it) and, hey, how about simply running of the stage and repeatedly edgehogging for invincibility/rolling off the stage if you need extra invincibility?

It's nowhere near as good as, say, Link's.

Have you actually played brawl...

Yes, have you?

 

[Yuna]

Have you seen what Crushed has been saying? He has been arguing against Yuna for about 5 pages with no substance, and only recently just argued "hypothetical situations." The guy is amazingly frustrating, and I'm surprised at how long Yuna kept from making personal insults for this long.

Thick headed and ignorant individuals shouldn't be a part of a serious discussion of any sort. I recommend just ignoring them from here on out, even if it is so tempting to beat them with the logic stick.

Thank you, Mookie-chan. Have some blueberry pie :D.

 

[Nuvia]

Can you blame me?

I suppose not. Though personally I wouldn't carry on an internet argument for that long.

 

[NES n00b]

Double post goodness?

You can see vids of people dodging Ness' and Lucas' FS without a problem. Why we arguing about how useful that FS is? It is terrible for 1vs1. End of discussion.

 

[Jael Irish]

Yuna has the patience of a saint, i gave up 4 pages ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TZnl2OHQWg&feature=related this video of sonic is where my head is at right now

 

[Team Giza]

You cannot help it if the Smash Ball spawns above your opponent and not you. Even if you're on the lookout for it.

Well that depends on character specifics and stage specifics. Which are finer details that will need to be gone into later with how powerful those final smashes are on those kinds of stages.

How large is the MvC2 scene? Not that big. And the two games are hardly comparable to Marth with a Final Smash. The game literally devolves into everyone having to play Marth in order to have even a remote chance of winning if FS:es are turned on.

3rd/4th largest competitive fighting game community in the United States. Its numbers right under Third Strikes. In most competitive MvC2 matches you will find at least one of the characters in the team being one of the 4 top tiers.

In 3rd Strike (I do not play MvC2), at least the Top Tiers have matchups that are 5-5 or 4-5 that are outside of the Top Tier. Marth would be unchallenged in God Tier. Competitive Brawling would be all about everyone playing Marth (and possibly Toon Link and Link if they can find good non-FS use for them anywhere near Marth's level).

Well for not I cannot argue with this well since I have not been able to view character specific problems. But if it is true that you can side step, superarmor or airdodge to avoid marth's final smash what is the problem?

Have you played the game? Experienced how certain FS:es overshadow others and break the game? Seen or experienced how good Marth is already without an FS?

I've seen how powerful Marth's final smash is. I have seen how much better it is in comparison to other characters. I have seen that he is a very good character without a final smash. But I still don't think it has been tested enough to find avoiding strategies and better ways to just stop him from getting the smash ball. Until we know 100%, possibly with a few weeks of tournament results, that he is going to break the game with Smash balls on than its not time to ban.

 

[Ijuka]

Okay Yuna, you know what? Fine. You have your security blanket. If anyone ever beats you with a Final Smash like that, they must have been a cheater. In the same fantasy world where I said I knew how to make attacks hit their targets, and where I talked about comboing into things, and all of the other imaginary statements you think I made.

You might want to get some psychiatric help about that. You seem to have anger issues about people coming to different conclusions as you do, or thinking differently than you, or not agreeing that you're 100% right about everything based on two weeks worth of playing a game.

First of all, Crushed, from you, I get the impression that you have played Melee for roughly 4 seconds at your local children's daycare.

You obviously know nothing about the game, or how the tournament play functions, yes it's OBVIOUS. If you don't think it is, tell me how it isn't?

You apparently think that timing will make every crappy move good, right? Warlock punch in Melee will hit an opponent while they are running at you, if you time it so that it hits when they are close. Is that how you think? And there's NO WAY that the opponent is smart enough to SEE the start up and run away?

"There just is an use for it" yes. There might be. When jigglypuff falls asleep for example. But hey...


1. A sure kill on 1 or more opponents, comboable from everything

2. A ****ty laggy slow FS that you're better with without. Lucario's normal moves are better than his FS.

How's it balanced?


And now, Crushed, please comment on the ARGUMENTS, not about some tiny little things like "omg I didnt say exactly that!!!", that doesn't matter AT ALL!

You're just saying that because you know you're beaten, and try to turn the attention away from it, so now... Please, give us an scenario of how you can hit with Lucario's FS? That you've actually tested in Brawl, please. Not just "I think this might work", because with your brain, and especially the lack of it, your thinking won't do any good for any of us.


Also, Yuna has played Melee for years, also has played Brawl.

You have apparently touched Melee once or twice, never been to a tournament, and are aged roughly 4-6 years old. One year here or there.

So who of you has more credit, anyway?


Crushed, please use Lucario's FS against people playing SSBB/SSBM competively, make a scenario where it will actually be useful, and post a video of it, explaining in detail how you made it useful.

Alternatively, go study hard to try to get into elementary school.

*temp ban for flaming*

 

[Ijuka]

Okay Yuna, you know what? Fine. You have your security blanket. If anyone ever beats you with a Final Smash like that, they must have been a cheater. In the same fantasy world where I said I knew how to make attacks hit their targets, and where I talked about comboing into things, and all of the other imaginary statements you think I made.

You might want to get some psychiatric help about that. You seem to have anger issues about people coming to different conclusions as you do, or thinking differently than you, or not agreeing that you're 100% right about everything based on two weeks worth of playing a game.

First of all, Crushed, from you, I get the impression that you have played Melee for roughly 4 seconds at your local children's daycare.

You obviously know nothing about the game, or how the tournament play functions, yes it's OBVIOUS. If you don't think it is, tell me how it isn't?

You apparently think that timing will make every crappy move good, right? Warlock punch in Melee will hit an opponent while they are running at you, if you time it so that it hits when they are close. Is that how you think? And there's NO WAY that the opponent is smart enough to SEE the start up and run away?

"There just is an use for it" yes. There might be. When jigglypuff falls asleep for example. But hey...


1. A sure kill on 1 or more opponents, comboable from everything

2. A ****ty laggy slow FS that you're better with without. Lucario's normal moves are better than his FS.

How's it balanced?


And now, Crushed, please comment on the ARGUMENTS, not about some tiny little things like "omg I didnt say exactly that!!!", that doesn't matter AT ALL!

You're just saying that because you know you're beaten, and try to turn the attention away from it, so now... Please, give us an scenario of how you can hit with Lucario's FS? That you've actually tested in Brawl, please. Not just "I think this might work", because with your brain, and especially the lack of it, your thinking won't do any good for any of us.


Also, Yuna has played Melee for years, also has played Brawl.

You have apparently touched Melee once or twice, never been to a tournament, and are aged roughly 4-6 years old. One year here or there.

So who of you has more credit, anyway?


Crushed, please use Lucario's FS against people playing SSBB/SSBM competively, make a scenario where it will actually be useful, and post a video of it, explaining in detail how you made it useful.

Alternatively, go study hard to try to get into elementary school.

*temp ban for flaming*

 

[Yuna]

Yuna has the patience of a saint, i gave up 4 pages ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TZnl2OHQWg&feature=related this video of sonic is where my head is at right now

Is that a quasi-Rick Roll?

 

[Ijuka]

Okay Yuna, you know what? Fine. You have your security blanket. If anyone ever beats you with a Final Smash like that, they must have been a cheater. In the same fantasy world where I said I knew how to make attacks hit their targets, and where I talked about comboing into things, and all of the other imaginary statements you think I made.

You might want to get some psychiatric help about that. You seem to have anger issues about people coming to different conclusions as you do, or thinking differently than you, or not agreeing that you're 100% right about everything based on two weeks worth of playing a game.

First of all, Crushed, from you, I get the impression that you have played Melee for roughly 4 seconds at your local children's daycare.

You obviously know nothing about the game, or how the tournament play functions, yes it's OBVIOUS. If you don't think it is, tell me how it isn't?

You apparently think that timing will make every crappy move good, right? Warlock punch in Melee will hit an opponent while they are running at you, if you time it so that it hits when they are close. Is that how you think? And there's NO WAY that the opponent is smart enough to SEE the start up and run away?

"There just is an use for it" yes. There might be. When jigglypuff falls asleep for example. But hey...


1. A sure kill on 1 or more opponents, comboable from everything

2. A ****ty laggy slow FS that you're better with without. Lucario's normal moves are better than his FS.

How's it balanced?


And now, Crushed, please comment on the ARGUMENTS, not about some tiny little things like "omg I didnt say exactly that!!!", that doesn't matter AT ALL!

You're just saying that because you know you're beaten, and try to turn the attention away from it, so now... Please, give us an scenario of how you can hit with Lucario's FS? That you've actually tested in Brawl, please. Not just "I think this might work", because with your brain, and especially the lack of it, your thinking won't do any good for any of us.


Also, Yuna has played Melee for years, also has played Brawl.

You have apparently touched Melee once or twice, never been to a tournament, and are aged roughly 4-6 years old. One year here or there.

So who of you has more credit, anyway?


Crushed, please use Lucario's FS against people playing SSBB/SSBM competively, make a scenario where it will actually be useful, and post a video of it, explaining in detail how you made it useful.

Alternatively, go study hard to try to get into elementary school.

*temp ban for flaming*