Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[Uchiharakiri]

If they are going to be banned from tournaments it should be because of the random aspect they may bring into the match. The logic of banning them because some are better than others is ridiculous though. They are character specific moves and thus are part of the character's moveset. Banning them for this specific reason would be like banning fox's and falco's upsmash from melee because fox's is clearly better.

Another interesting issue with banning smashballs from tournaments would arise if zero suit is not a selectable character. A viable (and cool) character would be removed from tournament play for a completely unrelated purpose.

Ah well that part's easy, if Smashballs are indeed removed from tournament play, let them stay. At least if only for the case of Zamus, meaning if a Smashball does appear, only Samus can go after it and break it open to turn into Zamus, I guess.

 

[SuperMajinLink 287]

Ah well that part's easy, if Smashballs are indeed removed from tournament play, let them stay. At least if only for the case of Zamus, meaning if a Smashball does appear, only Samus can go after it and break it open to turn into Zamus, I guess.

Simply dumb, because 1st, the opposing player would also go for the smash ball because if SAMUS can get the smash ball, then why can't the other player get it as well, it's only fair right? Second, that allows Samus a "free" final smash for her Zero Laser, and yet the opposing player is not allowed to grab the smash ball? Zero Laser has so much edge guarding potential, it's not even funny and yet, the opposing player is not allowed to grab the smash ball simply because we want one more added character for tournament play?

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

How about we have some tournaments with Smash balls, and some without? I'd enter both...

 

[MookieRah]

They are character specific moves and thus are part of the character's moveset. Banning them for this specific reason would be like banning fox's and falco's upsmash from melee because fox's is clearly better.

They vary from person to person but they come from an item. They aren't part of the moveset. I also love how casual people get on their soap boxes and preach about how imbalanced things are, but when someone in the competitive mindset focuses on maintaining balance by getting rid of extraneous factors they are told that balance doesn't matter! Lovely!

Balance is an issue for FS. Even on the competitive level.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Simply dumb, because 1st, the opposing player would also go for the smash ball because if SAMUS can get the smash ball, then why can't the other player get it as well, it's only fair right? Second, that allows Samus a "free" final smash for her Zero Laser, and yet the opposing player is not allowed to grab the smash ball? Zero Laser has so much edge guarding potential, it's not even funny and yet, the opposing player is not allowed to grab the smash ball simply because we want one more added character for tournament play?

No, the opposing player wouldn't go for it, for the simple fact I stated on my last post, only Samus would be allowed to go for it, for only the sole reason that it will allow her to change into Zamus. As for the Zero Laser being used, it can simply be pointed away from a person so as to not damage them and still allow the person to change into Zamus. Keep in your mind before calling anything dumb that this is just an attempt at reasoning some sort of way of allowing someone who may wish to main Zamus to play her in tournaments, no matter how inconvenient or out of the way it may seem; that is, if she really can only be activated by an FS which I don't think is what will happen. If anything I think you'll be able to play as Zamus from the start of a match just like you can do with Zelda/Sheik in Melee.

 

[MookieRah]

If anything I think you'll be able to play as Zamus from the start of a match just like you can do with Zelda/Sheik in Melee.

I hope to god they do this. It would be DUMB otherwise.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

They vary from person to person but they come from an item. They aren't part of the moveset. I also love how casual people get on their soap boxes and preach about how imbalanced things are, but when someone in the competitive mindset focuses on maintaining balance by getting rid of extraneous factors they are told that balance doesn't matter! Lovely!

Balance is an issue for FS. Even on the competitive level.

I have a competitive and casual mindset myself, I do believe FS's would imbalance tournament play specifically; I said that just to make you feel better...<3.

But seriously, I think it might just be a Shiek/Zelda like deal with the choosing of Zamus or Samus, I think Sakurai just wants the character to have a versatility option at hand within the game to turn into their alternate form for a little bit of a mix-up deal, just like he had in mind with Zelda and Shiek in Melee, heck for all we know, Zelda's down B in Brawl will still change her into Shiek and she won't require a FS like Samus to turn into Zamus, but I could be wrong.

 

[hugofalc]

I also love how casual people get on their soap boxes and preach about how imbalanced things are, but when someone in the competitive mindset focuses on maintaining balance by getting rid of extraneous factors they are told that balance doesn't matter!

I don't know if this portion was directed at me but I really don't see how being a casual or competitive player pertains to the issue I presented in my post nor do I think my post gives any sort of information as to what kind of smash player I currently am; it is just debate. I am simply stating that banning them for any other reason than their potential to imbalance a match through randomness would in my opinion be illogical. I am not taking a stance on whether or not they should be banned as a whole from tournament play yet, because I don't think we can judge their full potential without actually playing the finished game.

 

[MookieRah]

I don't know if this portion was directed at me but I really don't see how being a casual or competitive player pertains to the issue I presented in my post nor do I think my post gives any sort of information as to what kind of smash player I currently am; it is simply debate.

That wasn't aimed at you, I was merely posting how a lot of people are bringing up stuff like: "Since when does the competitive scene care about balance?" and for some reason they think it isn't a valid concern to the competitive scene. They, as a group, tend to be all about balance and are fed up that melee was so unbalanced and what not. It just shows the somewhat hypocrtical nature of the beast.

They do add randomness, but I think moreso than that they add imbalance. I don't have to play the game given the information to realize that.

 

[hugofalc]

That wasn't aimed at you, I was merely posting how a lot of people are bringing up stuff like: "Since when does the competitive scene care about balance?" and for some reason they think it isn't a valid concern to the competitive scene. They, as a group, tend to be all about balance and are fed up that melee was so unbalanced and what not. It just shows the somewhat hypocrtical nature of the beast.

Understood. Balance is the number one issue; but until the game comes out arguing balance potentials seems somewhat useless (althought the videos of the FS's that we have do reinforce your point). The zero suit issue was the main thing I wanted to bring to the table, but I guess we can all just pray that she is selectable from the beginning.

On a less serious note: if Bowser is even close to as awesome as he was in melee he will need his broken final smash to make him viable! /sarcasm

 

[darkNES386]

The one undeniable problem currently is that if Zamus can not be a startable character, her professional tournament fate is tied with the Smash Ball in/out.

The Smash Ball / Final Smash Debate:

These are the MAJOR CATEGORIES that it seems the focus is on:

1. USING THE FINAL SMASH
2. GETTING THE SMASH BALL
3. THE FINAL SMASH IS A MOVE / THE SMASH BALL IS AN ITEM

These are some specific arguments:
1) Character(s) A...B... has a broken FS
2) Character A has a better FS than Character B
3) Character(s) A...B... has a horrible FS

Do we know for sure whether or not certain characters have a broken FS?
-We can speculate for now

Arguments 2 and 3 are pointless. You don't complain about how useful one character's Down B move is in comparison to another character's Down B, final smashes (not smash balls) are character specfic.

GETTING THE SMASH BALL - We know it takes damage and it reacts to attacks. Sometimes it seems to stand still as you hit it and other times it's going across the screen. The question now becomes do both players have an equal chance of acquring the smash ball?

Using your final smash / avoiding another characters final smash
-You could tie this into the fairness of aquiring the smash ball. If you decide both characters have a fair chance... then regardless of what their final smash is... doesn't the one character deserve the right then to use their final smash, regardless of how good or bad it may be? (Also eliminates the compalints about one FS being better or worse than another)

I hope you can tell that right now I'm not taking a stance, I choose to wait until the game comes out.

I would like to think that they had an exciting element to the mix... without rewording what the dojo update this Monday said... it complicates things.

I think we should try and focus more on what we need to access once the game comes out... rather than have a concrete mindset right now. Go ahead and tell me to get off the fence, but I think this is the way to go right now.

 

[BananaNut]

GETTING THE SMASH BALL - The question now becomes do both players have an equal chance of acquring the smash ball?

Yes, they do, each character starts on the same stage at the same time. and if player A beats player B off the screen and gets the smash ball, it's fair, because player A earned control of the feild. If the both are on, then they have the same chance of getting it. If one character is faster than another, so what? It was the players that picked their own characters.


Using your final smash / avoiding another characters final smash
-You could tie this into the fairness of aquiring the smash ball. If you decide both characters have a fair chance... then regardless of what their final smash is... doesn't the one character deserve the right then to use their final smash, regardless of how good or bad it may be? (Also eliminates the compalints about one FS being better or worse than another)

Yup, it's pretty much what you mentioned, tieing it into the fairness of the original smash ball.

What I'm basically trying to say here, is that smashballs are fair, if you control the feild, you have a better chance of getting the smash ball, besides, you can beat the smash ball out of your opponents anyway.

 

[geemann2236]

A Smash Ball is an item, and items are banned from tournament play. So sorry, Smash Balls are NOT going to be in tournaments. At least, I hope they aren't. Luck would take a lot of fun out of the game, which is why there should not be Smash Balls.

 

[NES n00b]

No, you would want to balance the game out as much as possible without touching characters. So point 3 is pretty valid. That is why some stages are banned. . . . . . . .

 

[Someguy13]

I think Smash Balls use less luck than people seem to think. The fact that they move around the stage takes alot of the luck out of it because the person nearest might not get it. It kinda adds more tactics to the game because you have to decide to go after the smash ball or go after the guy going after the smash ball. And once he gets it do you try to beat it out of him or run. I also think that Final Smashes could be a kind of balence (example good character=bad FS, Bad character=good FS, Medium character=medium FS).

 

[NES n00b]

I think Smash Balls use less luck than people seem to think. The fact that they move around the stage takes alot of the luck out of it because the person nearest might not get it. It kinda adds more tactics to the game because you have to decide to go after the smash ball or go after the guy going after the smash ball. And once he gets it do you try to beat it out of him or run. I also think that Final Smashes could be a kind of balence (example good character=bad FS, Bad character=good FS, Medium character=medium FS).

We have been over this. FSes are not balanced. . . . .why would DK get the worst FS while Metaknight gets a good one?

The other things you talk about are pretty good, but really, it would just replace the subtle aspects of combat when the smash ball arrives. It would turn into control of the area around the Smash Ball instead of the middle of the stage and when someone has the smash ball, it would be sorta as if they had a stitch face or bo-omb.

 

[Someguy13]

We have been over this. FSes are not balanced. . . . .why would DK get the worst FS while Metaknight gets a good one?

The other things you talk about are pretty good, but really, it would just replace the subtle aspects of combat when the smash ball arrives. It would turn into control of the area around the Smash Ball instead of the middle of the stage and when someone has the smash ball, it would be sorta as if they had a stitch face or bo-omb.

Think about Meta-knight for a sec. Where does he have problems? Finishing people off. What does his FS do? Finishes them. Also I dont think DKs is so bad. I saw a video where he sent out a huge shock wave that had a good range and did pretty good knock back (the link currently eludes me but I'll keep looking) I think it mentioned in his FS update something like "what happens if you press A in time to the beat" so I just assumed it was the huge shock wave.

 

[Replacement100]

Think about this. Samus vs. Fox. Both have 1 stock, though Samus is at 110% while fox is only at 17%. Samus has a charged blast ready, but is getting combo'd with drill kicks, jabs, grabs and other aerials. It seems hopeless for Samus but then she gets in an u-tilt, which sends Fox a short distance off the stage. He's recovering when WHOOM, in comes a Smash Ball! Samus charged blasts it, the screen goes dark and BAM!

This may have already been said, but things can get MUCH worse.

For example, if one character is on high enough damage, and a smash ball appears, the other would produce a high knockback attack (which would most likely be easier to force upon a non-resisting character (they're getting the smash ball, not fighting.)), and could knock them out.
The character then gets the smash ball, quite likely KO'ing the character again easily.

Then amplify it to Peach-ish proportions.

Peach (even if on moderate damage) produces a high knockback attack on say, Fox - knocking him out. She then takes the recently spawned smash ball. Holding it, she manages to get Fox to a percentage and position where she is able to KO him with a fully charged smash attack, she may sustain damage, but who cares (as long as she keeps the smash ball). She Final Smashes, KOing Fox, and replenishing a large amount of health. Fox is now 2 stock down, and Peach is on low damage, if not fully renewed.

Just that is enough to condemn smash balls, in my opinion. Sure, the numbers may not add up and I may be overestimating Peaches' KO ability, and her Final Smash, but it's definitely on the table.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Now, take the first scenario. Is it better to let the other opponent chase the smash ball, and attack them while they're distracted, or go for it, and risk being picked on? This may sound like it's adding more strategy, but it's just taking away from the fighting skill of players.

Now think, if the character who first runs for the Smash Ball can sustain potentially high damage, why would a character run for it (especially if their attempts to break it will likely be interrupted brutally - with no Final Smash to make up for it)? This will likely result in Smash-Ball-Standoffs (I'm totally coining that term) - Both characters continue to fight, as neither wants to risk the damage done if they run to break the Smash Ball.

And eventually, (I'm not sure if this has already been said) characters will be rated on their capability to take, and hold a Smash Ball, if they are allowed in tournaments. Let's say we have Character A, poor aerial moves, poor jumping ability, a.k.a poor capability to break a Smash Ball. Then we have Character B. High aerial damage, great ability to stay in the air. Character B has a much better chance of obtaining, and using a Final Smash. If the Smash is anything less than horrible, Character B will be unusable against this character.

The capability to hold a smash ball is less significant, for most characters. However some, such as Mario and Samus will need a great holding capability to use theirs. If either are combo'd easily, they lose the possibility of a Final Smash (most likely), and still have the damage they took while obtaining the Smash Ball (see first paragraph under the dashed line - while characters obtain a smash ball, they will likely sustain high damage.)

 

[Knight-errant]

This may have already been said, but things can get MUCH worse.

For example, if one character is on high enough damage, and a smash ball appears, the other would produce a high knockback attack (which would most likely be easier to force upon a non-resisting character (they're getting the smash ball, not fighting.)), and could knock them out.
The character then gets the smash ball, quite likely KO'ing the character again easily.

In the last sentence there you say "easily." You're assuming that just because they have a smash ball they can automatically win, which is incorrect. Most of the Final Smashes need the opposing character to at least have some percent before it will kill them, which will mean some racking-up-percentage-skill on the Smash-Ball-Holder's part. Secondly, FS's are not auto-kills, they require skill to achieve the desired results.

Then amplify it to Peach-ish proportions.

Peach (even if on moderate damage) produces a high knockback attack on say, Fox - knocking him out. She then takes the recently spawned smash ball. Holding it, she manages to get Fox to a percentage and position where she is able to KO him with a fully charged smash attack,

Notice what you said there: "She manages to get..." She managed that by skill and smart playing. There are some important steps:
1. acquire smash ball
2. Get opponents percentage high enough
3. Work the battle so that you AND your opponent are in the right position for you to pull off the FS
4. The opponent is either hit OR dodges the smash.
You're glazing over steps 2 and 3, which are very important steps that require skill on the part of the player holding the smash ball. They have to not only accomplish those steps, but they have to do so without the smash ball getting knocked out of them.

The capability to hold a smash ball is less significant, for most characters. However some, such as Mario and Samus will need a great holding capability to use theirs. If either are combo'd easily, they lose the possibility of a Final Smash (most likely), and still have the damage they took while obtaining the Smash Ball (see first paragraph under the dashed line - while characters obtain a smash ball, they will likely sustain high damage.)

This is all part of the strategy. Should I go for the smash ball, or should it not? If I do, it might yield some high damage on my opponent...or if I screw up it might yield high damage for me. And this comes up all the time during current matches! If you're playing someone you always have multiple choices on how you'll act. Should you edgeguard by jumping off and attacking, just standing on the edge ready to react, or by edgehogging? If you jump off you might catch your opponent off-guard, but you also might get smacked back unexpectedly by them and be killed yourself. If you just stand there, you leave them more options, but it's safer. And finally if you edge-hog, they might just up-b above you, depending on their height, so that your edgehog was ineffective.

You can actually use the smash ball as a mind game even. Pretend to go for the ball, and then when they come to attack you...you attack them instead of the smash ball! It also might present some interesting situations...such as: do you edgeguard your opponent, or get the smash ball that just spawned? The possiblities are both numerous and exciting.

See, the smash ball just presents us players with even more decisions and strategies to use against our opponent...or fall victim to ourselves. It makes the game that much deeper, and I think it's cool.

On a final note: sorry, I'm not trying to pick on you Replacement, you just happened to have the most recent post that had to do with the "anti-smash ball" side of the debate. Feel free to disagree with me; I'd like to see if there were any arguments I had that aren't valid or if you had some new arguments that I didn't think of.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Faster characters will, barring random chance, have an advantage in getting to the Smash Ball first. Characters with good vertical movement or flying characters will also have an advantage. Any way you cut it, some characters will be put at a huge disadvantage in the battle for the smash ball, especially in 1v1 situations, just as fast characters have an advantage in items play. This alone is enough of a reason to forgo final smashes for tourney play, and I doubt many tourney players would really argue that. It always kills me how much people who have nothing to do with the tournament scene seem to care about what goes on in tournament play.

The alternative to this scenario is that every character has an equal chance of getting the Smash Ball because its movement around the stage is random. This is even worse! Dress it up however you like, but it just isn't fair that one character gets an ultra powerful attack, which could easily be the deciding factor in a match, by random chance when the Smash Ball spawns right over their head or randomly at an opportune time for the other player. You can say "If you are skilled you will be able to get the ball first!" all you want, but that's absolute BS. Like it or not, even if you are are much more skilled than your opponent, there will usually be times when you get knocked off the ledge and have to recover. If the smash ball appears near your opponent at those times, you have no control over who gets it.

To sum it up simply-- Smash Balls will be banned for the same reasons that all items are banned.

 

[Yeroc]

I agree with everything posted above by Knight-errant. Well said.

Edit 2: Penguins, I've been a part of the foundation of the Southeast's tournament scene since the middle of 2003, yet I'm very pro-items, provided they don't prove game breaking like exploding capsules did. I'm still of the opinion that that was the only competitive drawback to item play: everything else was "item-johnning" to me.

 

[WastingPenguins]

I agree with everything posted above by Knight-errant. Well said.

Edit 2: Penguins, I've been a part of the foundation of the Southeast's tournament scene since the middle of 2003, yet I'm very pro-items, provided they don't prove game breaking like exploding capsules did. I'm still of the opinion that that was the only competitive drawback to item play: everything else was "item-johnning" to me.

Congratulations on being an anomaly.

 

[Yeroc]

I know this. I feel I'm usually well liked for it by people who know me.

 

[Barnacules]

This argument can be solved by using simple math.
Given: Items=Banned Smash Ball=Item

Therefore, using the transitive property, Smash Ball=Banned.

OK, but enough of me being an ***. Items were banned because they added randomness to the match, making skill, which is what the tournament was supposed to be about, less important. Smash Balls will definitely add luck as has been said multiple times in this thread. They move in random directions with no coherent pattern whatsoever. You can cry, "They will add tactical depth to the game!" all you want, but it's never going to be true. Sorry.

 

[Someguy13]

Faster characters will, barring random chance, have an advantage in getting to the Smash Ball first. Characters with good vertical movement or flying characters will also have an advantage. Any way you cut it, some characters will be put at a huge disadvantage in the battle for the smash ball, especially in 1v1 situations, just as fast characters have an advantage in items play. This alone is enough of a reason to forgo final smashes for tourney play, and I doubt many tourney players would really argue that. It always kills me how much people who have nothing to do with the tournament scene seem to care about what goes on in tournament play.

The alternative to this scenario is that every character has an equal chance of getting the Smash Ball because its movement around the stage is random. This is even worse! Dress it up however you like, but it just isn't fair that one character gets an ultra powerful attack, which could easily be the deciding factor in a match, by random chance when the Smash Ball spawns right over their head or randomly at an opportune time for the other player. You can say "If you are skilled you will be able to get the ball first!" all you want, but that's absolute BS. Like it or not, even if you are are much more skilled than your opponent, there will usually be times when you get knocked off the ledge and have to recover. If the smash ball appears near your opponent at those times, you have no control over who gets it.

To sum it up simply-- Smash Balls will be banned for the same reasons that all items are banned.

Faster characters are normaly weaker so it will take them longer to open the smash ball. As I have said before a Final Smash is not an instant KO and anything but undogeable. By the looks of things it seems like many of them must be comboed into to be used as well as they could be. Also please explane how it moving around the stage is worse than it staying in one place. Staying in one place gives the faster characters an advantage but the movement and the fact that it has hit points gives the advantage to no one. Fast characters can keep up but it takes longer to open. Slow characters cant keep up as well but it dosent take as many hits to open.

 

[gigasteve]

It is an awesome part of having fun, but NO NO for professional.

 

[Micheloxx]

I think this stange powerful and cra**y ball should be banned, just imagine a match between M2K and chu dat, ok, umm, for example, Chu is winning in the last stock, got 20percent and M2k got 160 percent, and the balls start to fly around all the stage, and M2k takes it, and kills chu.. what do u say? i dont think it should be added in tourneys, exept if is a item on touney or a rule that says: Smash ball is acepted, or something like that. But for me it shouldnt be acepted..

Of course, lets play the game first and see what happens..

 

[Someguy13]

I think this stange powerful and cra**y ball should be banned, just imagine a match between M2K and chu dat, ok, umm, for example, Chu is winning in the last stock, got 20percent and M2k got 160 percent, and the balls start to fly around all the stage, and M2k takes it, and kills chu.. what do u say? i dont think it should be added in tourneys, exept if is a item on touney or a rule that says: Smash ball is acepted, or something like that. But for me it shouldnt be acepted..

Of course, lets play the game first and see what happens..

I dont think we've seen a Final smash that could kill at 20%.

 

[ricydafrog]

anyone who says we shouldn't have smash balls in should just go back to mellee
of course we should use them in tournaments
-hops away

 

[Keige]

I think only Pity Final Smashes should be left in. If you're down by 3 stock, I think you deserve a FS.

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

I dont care either way this game will own... so will tournies,...

and...^

I think only Pity Final Smashes should be left in. If you're down by 3 stock, I think you deserve a FS.

agreed for one reason... anyone who can take a three stock lead on you, will be able to avoid the FS all together or have enough stocks to take a hit or too... so it dosn't matter.

 

[gigasteve]

I dont care either way this game will own... so will tournies,...

and...^


agreed for one reason... anyone who can take a three stock lead on you, will be able to avoid the FS all together or have enough stocks to take a hit or too... so it dosn't matter.

Sounds like a plan... But can you switch pity's and SB's seperately?

 

[Micheloxx]

I dont think we've seen a Final smash that could kill at 20%.

umm, yeap but thers FS that could hit u a 80 percent hit..

and the idea is that everyone likes to pla brawl.. And i dont have to play melee 4ever just because i prefer to play without a smash ball..

 

[Micheloxx]

sry double post..

 

[verditude]

I dont think we've seen a Final smash that could kill at 20%.

Meta Knight's might be able to, if you hit them high enough in the air.

 

[joeysmash]

Sorry to burst this threads bubble, but maybe we should just wait to the games final relise.

 

[MajinSweet]

A lot of people seem to be looking at this the wrong way, saying things like "So and so has a really good final smash and that person doesn't--unbalanced!" Melee was very unbalanced with horribly bad characters and godly ones, it didn't seem to hinder the competitive scene. Not to mention certain character with great final smashes may need to rely on that final smash. Maybe Peach isn't all that great of a character anymore, but her final smash makes up for it. For all we know, the final smashed may be a way to actually balance the characters. We won't know for sure until we actually see them used in a competitive nature. So the only real answer is test them, test them and test them some more.

 

[matthewmilad]

At real official ones like the Melee scene? No way, of course not. For random nub tournies that are bound to come up, yes, definitely. Kinda like there are some nub tournies that have Teams with Team Attack off, I bet there will be some rare occasion Smash Ball Tournies.

 

[autobzooty]

probably not, but i wish people would use more crazy **** in tournaments. if you ask me wavedashing and other glitches/exploits should be banned from tournaments, not something like Smash Balls that will actually make things interesting.

 

[killbeast301]

uh-oh. prepare to be flamed.