Will there ever be major, non-canon mechanics added to Brawl+?

[leafgreen386]

The cutscene better be MK getting killed by every character.

including MK

With windboxes.

obv

 

[[TSON]]

The opening scene should just have everyone lined up and then one of them in the middle has a windbox and makes everyone go flying away.

obv

 

[MK26]

The opening scene should just have everyone lined up and then all of them have multiple windboxes and makes everyone go flying away.

windboxes

fix'd

more like winboxes mirite

mulberry

 

[Untouch]

actually lets just change the name to windboxes +

 

[Rikana]

fix'd

more like winboxes mirite

mulberry windboxes

fix'd

boxes of wind

 

[MK26]

oh right

this isnt marth+ discussion the cool kids' social thread

its windbox central

all in favour of b+ getting more windboxes, say windboxes

 

[GHNeko]

bindwoxes

hurrrr

 

[Sterowent]

Win D. Boxes

 

[BEES]

I'm going to go back and address this because it still bothers me.

what you aren't taking into account, sir, is that low-level smash is a lot different than high lvl. low level? people don't tech enough. No DI. getup attacks every time. offstage game's either non-existent or too risky for them. mid lvl? people learn to tech, but they don't think about whether their opponent will follow it because they don't. there might be some DI, but certainly no SDI. there are more grabs now, but most will stick to one grab because of how good it is for 'combos' or whatever. more offstage, but SDs sometimes. high lvl: people tech...or not. they think about it and their opponent's intentions a lot more. lots of DI, but there's Pro DI (awesome) and SDI. grabs for everything, including mixups and ledgeguarding. offstage is active, lots of gimps and suicide kills. top lvl: i don't know. i'm not in enough for that.

Edit: so, uh, yeah. lots of fighting games are great because they scale with player skill. there's no need to make a bunch of baseline 'legit' combos because a low-lvl player vs. a low-lvl player already supplies enough human error to allow that.

You've misinterpreted 'scaling' to mean 'staying the same', as opposed to 'scaling up'.

What you've described is essentially what I find wrong with the system. The scale of followups does not increase with skill. It stays the same. 3-4 hits at low level, 3-4 hits at high level. 5-6 are exceptional cases. In my opinion, high level play should open up significantly longer followups than that. 10-15 maybe, if you play wisely.

that's also what's great about cape's set right now! it scales much better with player skill! high lvl play feels high lvl.

If you're referring to the current beta... I tried it. It's not that good. The matches are slow as molasses, and significantly more defensive than any previous iteration of Brawl+.

 

[kupo15]

IIRC, kupo jacked up the volume but it sounded horrible to him so idk.

No. I never tried to do that. I am a firm believer that there is no SFX on clanks

Allow projectiles to be thrown at a diagonal. Link would love this.

With windboxes.

obv

And windboxes

 

[GHNeko]

i remember someone turning up SFX on it before and hearing someting bad.

 

[MK26]

somebody just said that only mario has a 'clank' sfx

 

[kupo15]

I think it was Falco400

 

[zephyrnereus]

whats the difference between normal brawl+ and cape's brawl set? where can I find more info?

also, the final smashes should have windboxes as well. then they would be tourney-legal.

 

[[TSON]]

needs more scenic wind with the windboxes mirite

 

[NeoTLkid]

Final Smashes?
how do you do a Final Smash?
Is it new?

....
windboxes

I used to think clashes would make a light chink sound. Guess not though.

 

[CloneHat]

If you're referring to the current beta... I tried it. It's not that good. The matches are slow as molasses, and significantly more defensive than any previous iteration of Brawl+.

Wow dude, did you forget your pac files? There's no reason this build would be ANY slower than before. The combo system was modified, and jumps are actually FASTER.

i remember someone turning up SFX on it before and hearing someting bad.

Yah that was SMK. Sakurai went for realism this time around so the clank sound effect is basically two fists bumping together. GOOD GOING

 

[Krobat]

If you're referring to the current beta... I tried it. It's not that good. The matches are slow as molasses, and significantly more defensive than any previous iteration of Brawl+.

Man you crazy. it's sped-up, tech rolling for many characters is faster, and hitstun is lower. The only mechanic that wasn't a positive speed change was that some moves got more ariel landing lag, I believe. What's slow about it? Are you sure you aren't just playing slowly? :/

How is it more defensive? Because you can recover a little faster? It didn't really break any combos that I know of, just made it so juggling wasn't easy mode. At it's previous setting you could up-air people around like sandbags and generally there was just too much time to follow up starters.

So yeah, if anything it's faster and more offensive... did you notice something I missed?

Also, about your general topic regarding new universal techs for brawl+, I think you're being over-fanciful. The goal of the project isn't to design a new game but to make brawl more balanced and strategically decentralized for competitive play. At this brawl+ has been successful and continues to deliver. I mean I see that you envision that new mechanics could make it more "intense" but it is already faster and more fluid than its predecessor and doesn't really need to be intensified to the extent you propose, in my opinion.

We really don't need new universal techs anyway, because character specific techs are becoming more emphasized. Have you tried shiek's buffed crawldash? Ness and yoshi have had DJC returned to them, and fox gets SJC back. Check out heavy armor on Bowser's crawl, there's a mechanic that significantly alters play and helps that character without breaking the game. There's an idea going around to have mario's back throw use reverse kg growth, dealing increased knockback to heavy characters. Samus can now bomb-jump cancel. You get the idea.

We can probably rely on this trend to continue, and for CT's to be buffed and new ones implemented as a way to add depth without breaking balance. It also diversifies the cast and gives you more incentive to explore the roster than some new universal tech that anyone can do.

 

[BEES]

Wow dude, did you forget your pac files? There's no reason this build would be ANY slower than before. The combo system was modified, and jumps are actually FASTER.

Combo system? I am unaware of any combo system you refer to. You must be referring to the tech-chase system. It seems similar, although with more emphasis on the teching itself than the DI out of juggling.

How is it more defensive? Because you can recover a little faster? It didn't really break any combos that I know of, just made it so juggling wasn't easy mode. At it's previous setting you could up-air people around like sandbags and generally there was just too much time to follow up starters.

Have you ever fought someone with DI?

 

[some-guy]

Tension wouldn't really work in smash, at least not in the traditional way. Tension was designed to reward players for being aggressive. However, aggressive or defensive moves cannot really be measured the same way in smash, since the game doesn't keep track of if you're facing your opponent (not to mention how screwed up it would be in doubles). The game has no way to determine if you're running away from a foe or if you're running toward them. Sure, you could make it take away tension for spotdodging, airdodging, rolling, or shielding, but these aren't even always used defensively; for example, it's possible to bait an attack by running forward and then dashcanceling into a spotdodge when they go to attack you, which is very much an offensive technique, despite the spotdodge generally being a defensive move. At the same time, rewarding a player for hitting a foe will reward the player just as much for camping (a highly defensive style of play) as it would for going on the full out offense. In fact, to deal with the camping, the opposing player will probably have to use primarily defensive moves such as the shield or airdodge, causing their tension to go down and the camper's tension to go up, the exact opposite of what we want happening. It's just not something you could integrate into the game very well at all.

It could just take a little bit of tension away for shielding and stuff and is there anyway to only make certain attacks build tension or anything? I'll think of something that has a higher chance of working that I didn't think of in 10 seconds later. ;P

 

[CloneHat]

Combo system? I am unaware of any combo system you refer to. You must be referring to the tech-chase system. It seems similar, although with more emphasis on the teching itself than the DI out of juggling.



Have you ever fought someone with DI?

COMBO SYSTEM. As in HITSTUN, and NO AIR DODGE DURING TUMBLE.

*reads rest of post*

Wait, are combos too complicated? Is tech chasing the only thing manageable in this game, as you're limited to only two directions?

Looks like someone can't follow/predict DI and wants to make techs that let him combo more easily.

 

[BEES]

Looks like someone can't follow/predict DI and wants to make techs that let him combo more easily.

This argument doesn't make much sense to me, because if you think about it, a game with ATs that increase the number of hits you can land in succession... still would have the same DI wouldn't it? Once you have an opening to get away, DI still affects gameplay.

I know you're not saying a game with longer combos is inherently less deep. There is objective evidence to the contrary, and personally, I think having longer combos rewards skill more, since the offensive player has a greater choice of followups at their disposal.

I've only proposed techs that increase the speed and pressure of offense. I've only proposed techs that make the game more complex, more difficult to master, so I don't know where your 'easy mode' accusations fit into this, other than a weak sauce excuse to keep things the way they are without any substantiating arguments to back them up.

Krobat has an actual argument against adding new techs. It is, ultimately, just his opinion. But this is just my opinion as well. Ideally the community would be large enough for all of us to get the game we want, but we have better chances of this surviving if we all stick to one competitive hacked game, and that means all our conflicting interests are going to have to find some common ground.

 

[Sterowent]

I'm going to go back and address this because it still bothers me.


You've misinterpreted 'scaling' to mean 'staying the same', as opposed to 'scaling up'.

What you've described is essentially what I find wrong with the system. The scale of followups does not increase with skill. It stays the same. 3-4 hits at low level, 3-4 hits at high level. 5-6 are exceptional cases. In my opinion, high level play should open up significantly longer followups than that. 10-15 maybe, if you play wisely.

i'd agree that, to an extent, there isn't enough room for higher stakes at higher lvl play, but i disagree to the extent those followups should go. 5-6 does sound fantastic to me, above the 2-3 you'd have in an intense fight. that's why i'm in such favor of motion techniques being introduced: they would alleviate from this problem -- as long as they made sure to make the player committed to a direction to prevent abuse.


hey, i just thought of something. as we all know, clanks in this game are kinda ****ty. i propose that clanks cause a sound effect, swords clashing or somethin. hell if i know what's most appropriate. this is simply to notify the players better of what just happened, eheh...clanks are harder to register with that terribly fast cancel animation and ****.

anyway, once a clash happens, the characters are treated as though they've powershielded. in that way, once the animation and sound go off, players will have a chance to do whatever the hell they were going to do beforehand.

Edit: if that's not enough, could adding some sort of hitlag be possible? not much, mind you, just enough to put players on the tip of realization.

not sure if this will centralize some character's games in the air more or not. are there any characters that would have a prob with their ground games and clanks?

 

[ph00tbag]

How is it more defensive? Because you can recover a little faster? It didn't really break any combos that I know of, just made it so juggling wasn't easy mode. At it's previous setting you could up-air people around like sandbags and generally there was just too much time to follow up starters.

So yeah, if anything it's faster and more offensive... did you notice something I missed?

I heard they lowered shieldstun in this build, actually. If there's one way to guarantee that a game is defensive, having low shieldstun is a way to do it.

 

[Sterowent]

they made the heavy attacks have less shield stun. you know, big moves that shouldn't be just thrown out on shields in the first place.

 

[ZacTASTIC]

I thought the idea of a rage combo would be pretty cool, building damage from consecutive hits to encourage more combos...
Would this require a lot of coding or would it be relatively simple? You wouldn't have to code every character, would you?

 

[Dan_X]

I had a nightmare that a windbox killed my family and I, blowing them into an abyssal trench.

Is that normal?

Oh yeah, Shanus, I can't wait for your windbox techs! Windboxes for the win!

 

[Krobat]

Have you ever fought someone with DI?

...Yeah, I have. What's your point? Since your only reply is a vague inference about DI skill, I'm guessing (by the part of my post you quoted) that you mean to disagree with me about the brokenness of juggling in RC1.

Have you ever fought a decent ness user in that build? If you have, you know that when you are traveling nearly straight up, in HITSTUN, DI is not sufficient to alter your trajectory enough to save you from being nailed a few times by a fast, observant opponent with the right moves and physics.

Anyway, you still haven't illustrated how this build can be slower and more defensive. Can you explain that a bit further? Perhaps you find the NADT makes play more sluggish? buuut.... NADT is literally a defensive nerf. No auto sweetspot on side-b's could also be considered a defensive nerf since it makes it harder to access ledge invulnerability, making bad recovery more likely to be punished. Also, I forgot to mention ugrav is increased, so you have faster jumps in addition to faster techrolls and faster recovery from hits. Where is the slowness and defensiveness coming from?

I maintain that's it's in fact the opposite, faster and more offensive.

Ideally the community would be large enough for all of us to get the game we want, but we have better chances of this surviving if we all stick to one competitive hacked game, and that means all our conflicting interests are going to have to find some common ground.

I agree with you on this. Ironically, this is what I feel is wrong with your idea of more "fighting game" esque mechanics in Brawl+. Implementing these would probably alienate many players and fracture the Brawl hacking community into isolated denominations that all play different versions of the game.

Also, melee doesn't have glide toss, RAR, boost smash, crawldash... I don't think you can pivot grab either. I might be wrong about that though.

Melee doesn't have reverse falcon punch either. It's clearly an inferior game.

 

[mofo_]

hows the shield countering coming along?

@rage combo/stephen colbert its possible w/ PSA.
See: Beast Ganon

 

[BEES]

...Yeah, I have. What's your point? Since your only reply is a vague inference about DI skill, I'm guessing (by the part of my post you quoted) that you mean to disagree with me about the brokenness of juggling in RC1.

Have you ever fought a decent ness user in that build? If you have, you know that when you are traveling nearly straight up, in HITSTUN, DI is not sufficient to alter your trajectory enough to save you from being nailed a few times by a fast, observant opponent with the right moves and physics.

Sometimes in a fighting game, you get nailed a few times. Sometimes your opponent has guaranteed followups, providing they have the skill to land them. Part of the strategy in hardcore fighters is choosing your moves to increase the number of followups you can get. I have absolutely no problem with that.

I do apologize for the comment about DI though. That was uncalled for on my part.

Anyway, you still haven't illustrated how this build can be slower and more defensive. Can you explain that a bit further? Perhaps you find the NADT makes play more sluggish? buuut.... NADT is literally a defensive nerf. No auto sweetspot on side-b's could also be considered a defensive nerf since it makes it harder to access ledge invulnerability, making bad recovery more likely to be punished. Also, I forgot to mention ugrav is increased, so you have faster jumps in addition to faster techrolls and faster recovery from hits. Where is the slowness and defensiveness coming from?

The game is out of proportion with its environment. Landing 3 hits is now a process that takes you clear across a stage, and there just isn't enough room to supplement longer strings except for rare circumstances. I feel this also reduces the variety of followups you can make. I will admit I played the set for about 30 minutes with a small amount of characters before switching back, because everyone else got bored. But the impression I got was that damage accumulated more slowly and stocks last longer. I will revisit the codeset, but I suspect my time with Brawl+ is drawing to an end.

I agree with you on this. Ironically, this is what I feel is wrong with your idea of more "fighting game" esque mechanics in Brawl+. Implementing these would probably alienate many players and fracture the Brawl hacking community into isolated denominations that all play different versions of the game.

I think a game with only 2-3 hit combos will have a harder time attracting Brawl players than a game with longer ones. Why bother at that point, if you already play Brawl? Brawl has stuff in that neighborhood, and you don't have to hack a wii to play it.

Also, melee doesn't have glide toss, RAR, boost smash, crawldash... I don't think you can pivot grab either. I might be wrong about that though.

Melee doesn't have reverse falcon punch either. It's clearly an inferior game.

Oh, joy.

 

[Rudra]

...

Also, melee doesn't have glide toss, RAR, boost smash, crawldash... I don't think you can pivot grab either. I might be wrong about that though.

Melee doesn't have reverse falcon punch either. It's clearly an inferior game.

Are you serious? Lacking those doesnt make Melee inferior in any way.

 

[Alphatron]

Are you serious? Lacking those doesnt make Melee inferior in any way.

Sarcasm and such.

 

[ph00tbag]

they made the heavy attacks have less shield stun. you know, big moves that shouldn't be just thrown out on shields in the first place.

I'm not sure I follow. If a move shouldn't be thrown out on shield, it shouldn't be thrown out on shield. If some character is made of fast moves with high shield damage, I can see how you'd want to give them a bit more risk to their moveset, but why can't the game just balance itself in this regard?

 

[JCaesar]

The problem was that a lot of powerful moves were completely safe on block, and you were just stuck in your shield forever from the ludicrous amount of shieldstun. Now you can't just throw them out willy-nilly, you actually have to space them well if you want them to be safe.

 

[Alphatron]

So long as Bowser fsmash is still safe on shield, I'm good.

 

[ph00tbag]

The problem was that a lot of powerful moves were completely safe on block, and you were just stuck in your shield forever from the ludicrous amount of shieldstun. Now you can't just throw them out willy-nilly, you actually have to space them well if you want them to be safe.

Well, a lot of powerful moves with high start-up, but low cool-down and high power should be safe on block, because there's no reason to be hit by one on shield unless you've been tricked or are just not very smart. If it's got low start-up, lots of power, but high cooldown, and you somehow managed to up sheildstun until it was safe on block, then I agree it should be changed, but I find it hard to believe that that's the case.

 

[Alphatron]

^Wario fsmash?

But that doesn't matter since shieldstun wasn't lowered in the beta, but was increased.

Bumping due to discussion and shanus' post.

 

[BEES]

This thread got off topic. I think it should return to the addition of meaningful ATs to Brawl+.

Will this happen? I contend that it probably will not. Judging from the responses in the thread. While many were positive, other than Shanus's very vague post which could be nothing, it seems the idea does not resonate with any of the important players in the B+ sandbox.

So perhaps it is the domain of another hacking project. The question is: which one? Nobody has ever tried to make a codeset with universal ATs, and nobody appears to be planning to. Brawl- might, but I'm a bit skeptical they're in it for anything other than chuckles.

Should a new hacking project take this up maybe? You would think there would be some demand for it.

 

[Alphatron]

Got an idea. Aerial grabs. Not sure if this is possible, but it is possible to grab/hold chars in the air(Bowser, DK).

With PSA, you can perform ground animations in the air, so why not? Just choose the most suitable animations for every character.

 

[MK26]

how would that work for cahracters with zairs?