Will there ever be major, non-canon mechanics added to Brawl+?

[Kei_Takaro]

I have a good idea.

Make it so that when attacks clank, it makes a sound effect. That's simple, right?

Can I haz better GFXs too?

 

[leafgreen386]

Guys get back on topic we're talking about WINDBOXES here.

(needs more shield counter windbox)

 

[twiblets]

what would the ness counter be? i would imagine sidesmash is too slow.

 

[[TSON]]

jab3 or PK flash end animation with a WINDBOX

 

[BEES]

Oh? Why are you so close-minded? You're the one who made a thread about new techs in Brawl+. Did you honestly expect that WDing conversation wouldn't find its way here?

I made a thread about new NON-CANON techs in Brawl+, meaning stuff that hasn't been in smash bros before. Wavedashing does not fall under the purview of the topic of discussion. It belongs in another thread.

Why is WDing bad? Tell me, in detail, why it is.

I think there are better things we could add, plain and simple. Wavedashing buffs approach, but I'm just as interested in the follow-up.

What I want is a game where short combos, 3-4 hits maybe, are accessible to everyone with a basic understanding of smash bros who starts to play it. This is enough to keep the gameplay engaging at lower skill levels. And this is why I disagree with some forumgoers' philosophies (such as Kupo) so greatly. In Kupo's ideal game, these combos would only be available to the very top of the top players, and that is a problem in Melee - when you're learning the game, it's pretty much entirely run/outsmart/hit/run/outsmart/hit until you've got a doctorate in JC shine/SHFFL attacks. I want that depth to be there, but for higher levels to be rewarded with longer combos where they were not possible before.

Smash Canceling and Conditional IASA frames on certain attacks would allow this.

For instance - a 3-4 hit string with Falco, maybe Shine/Dair/Utilt/Bair, could become a true combo - Shine/Dair/Usmash/Nair/Dair/Dsmash - and that Dsmash, rather than being the end, sets up a potential tech chase.

I'm guessing you want waveshining back. After all, Fox has JCS again, so HAD would allow him to waveshine. I want that too; that kind of pressure is exactly what the new techs I'm proposing would open up - a game with constant engagement. IASA frames could be added to Fox's shine to facilitate shine-dashing or something.

I think a good example of this gameplay is the metal sonic hack. Metal Sonic's specials are a barrage of constant pressure. gfb/gfb/gfb/gfb/dsmash etc. I've had more fun playing with/against that character in the past week than in most matches before.

 

[CloneHat]

So the 3-4 hit combos are only reserved for the top players in Melee? Run/outsmart/hit, unless you're a pro? Wow. Have you actually played the game recently?

It's not like combos were hard to do, and if you think they have to be made easier for "non-pro" players, that's just ridiculous.

Shine/Dair/Utilt/Bair could be a TRUE combo? It's already is a combo if your opponent doesn't tech, and if they did, is a techchase too much for you?

 

[BEES]

And that's a problem. Too many things are tech chases.

 

[GHNeko]

tech chases need more windboxes

 

[MK26]

inb4 "hay ness, we heard you like windboxes, so we made your down-b knock down so you can have windboxes while you have windboxes"

 

[mofo_]

so is there gonna be windboxes everywhere now in b+?

 

[Sterowent]

what you aren't taking into account, sir, is that low-level smash is a lot different than high lvl.

low level? people don't tech enough. No DI. getup attacks every time. offstage game's either non-existent or too risky for them.

mid lvl? people learn to tech, but they don't think about whether their opponent will follow it because they don't. there might be some DI, but certainly no SDI. there are more grabs now, but most will stick to one grab because of how good it is for 'combos' or whatever. more offstage, but SDs sometimes.

high lvl: people tech...or not. they think about it and their opponent's intentions a lot more. lots of DI, but there's Pro DI (awesome) and SDI. grabs for everything, including mixups and ledgeguarding. offstage is active, lots of gimps and suicide kills.

top lvl: i don't know. i'm not in enough for that.

Edit: so, uh, yeah. lots of fighting games are great because they scale with player skill. there's no need to make a bunch of baseline 'legit' combos because a low-lvl player vs. a low-lvl player already supplies enough human error to allow that.

that's also what's great about cape's set right now! it scales much better with player skill! high lvl play feels high lvl.

 

[NeoTLkid]

re
Anyways, I agree that this thread is going downhill. I think we need to narrow it down and put forth 2 or 3 techniques that we should attempt to rally for. Probably somekind of ground based "dash", the sheild counter and someother one. Feedback?

I agree we should have a poll for the other 2, they should have 2 catagories.
Spot 1 is a movement tech.
Spot 2 is an offensive tech
Spot 3 is already a deffensive tech. I.E. shield countering

 

[Doval]

@BEES: Wavedashing has never been canon.

Also I can't believe people are taking Shield countering seriously. It's completely redundant with Powershielding.

 

[zephyrnereus]

windbox is the new wavedash :V

Also, what would be the point with smash cancel? The only use i see it for would be edgeguard mindgames...and free power for lucario players.

 

[twiblets]

im warming to the idea of airdashing. more mobility for aerials, and mixes up the air game generally

 

[zephyrnereus]

i guess airdash could work, and by consecuence, add wavedash to the game. It could work like this: press shield in the air and you dodge. Press shield and a direction and you will dash in that direction about the same speed as the melee dodge, but with momentum. You are vulmerable during the dash, and can only be done once in the air until you touch the ground. If you try do airdash again, you will do a normal dodge.
(add some windboxes and you got a nice AT...)

 

[twiblets]

so would it take the place of a normal DJ

 

[Sterowent]

while i Like the idea of airdashing, i can recognize why it wouldn't feel very sexy.

for one thing, it would probably look a bit clunky. for another, i'd much rather see that be exclusive to megaman chars, really (c'mon, X, show yourself!).

my biggest gripe, though, would be it eliminating some of the great air to ground system smash has. one of the best aspects of the smash series is the constant motion involved and the need to connect both the systems of the air game and ground game. an aerial dash would remove some of that balance, if implemented as has been suggested.

perhaps an interesting notion would be to make it so, if done towards the ground, you get this special momentum, so...

aw, ****.

****! why was WDing such an unbelievably good accident!

FUUUUCK

edit: this was spurred on by a random outting to the ice climber's stage (brawl+, cape's set). so much slipping and sliding.

it's really **** that this technique was already developed and has a stigma attached already. the connection of ground to air is defined by the inclusion of momentum again, but there's no vice versa to this system. you can't get a special dash from air to ground! if there's a motion AT ever included, it really ought to be done from air to ground to keep both systems connected.

rest assured, by the way, that this was an accident. i can't believe i never looked at WDing like this...it's so obvious now.

 

[MK26]

:/

why not just give everybody a ground move that has iasa on hit?

and techjumping

and windboxes

:V

 

[Sterowent]

well, there's already something you can use on the ground that usually leads to the ability to follow up almost immediately.

it's called a throw, har har.

ohh, let's talk more about techjumps...

 

[leafgreen386]

while i Like the idea of airdashing, i can recognize why it wouldn't feel very sexy.

for one thing, it would probably look a bit clunky. for another, i'd much rather see that be exclusive to megaman chars, really (c'mon, X, show yourself!).

my biggest gripe, though, would be it eliminating some of the great air to ground system smash has. one of the best aspects of the smash series is the constant motion involved and the need to connect both the systems of the air game and ground game. an aerial dash would remove some of that balance, if implemented as has been suggested.

perhaps an interesting notion would be to make it so, if done towards the ground, you get this special momentum, so...

aw, ****.

****! why was WDing such an unbelievably good accident!

FUUUUCK

edit: this was spurred on by a random outting to the ice climber's stage (brawl+, cape's set). so much slipping and sliding.

it's really **** that this technique was already developed and has a stigma attached already. the connection of ground to air is defined by the inclusion of momentum again, but there's no vice versa to this system. you can't get a special dash from air to ground! if there's a motion AT ever included, it really ought to be done from air to ground to keep both systems connected.

rest assured, by the way, that this was an accident. i can't believe i never looked at WDing like this...it's so obvious now.

Airdashing with windboxes. Problem solved.

Although to actually be serious, I think that if we wanted to create an air to ground movement tech similar to wavelanding, it might be worth looking back to a fun little thing we stumbled upon a while back while messing with ness DJC... I'm talking about combat rolls, of course. For those that don't recall, basically, it let chars tech without having needed to actually have been in tumble, or even hit for that matter. Of course it would need quite a bit of cleaning up to be implemented. If it could be made so the "combat rolls" lasted a (much) shorter duration and without any invinc without messing up actual techrolls, it would act quite similar to a waveland, although it unfortunately would not have the variable distance like wavelands, so its utility would be less.

...

Which is why we need to give it a windbox.

 

[some-guy]

This might be a dumb idea, but me and some of my friends were thinking about if there was a combo counter that appears when you combo somebody kinda like in a normal fighting game. I dunno if it's possible, and it isn't an AT, but it sounds kinda cool. :o
But AT wise-ish, what about a tension guage that lets you cancel attacks by pushing shield or something in the middle of an attack when it gets filled enough kinda like in Guilty Gear? Again, if it's possible, just saying what I just thought of. xD

 

[leafgreen386]

Tension wouldn't really work in smash, at least not in the traditional way. Tension was designed to reward players for being aggressive. However, aggressive or defensive moves cannot really be measured the same way in smash, since the game doesn't keep track of if you're facing your opponent (not to mention how screwed up it would be in doubles). The game has no way to determine if you're running away from a foe or if you're running toward them. Sure, you could make it take away tension for spotdodging, airdodging, rolling, or shielding, but these aren't even always used defensively; for example, it's possible to bait an attack by running forward and then dashcanceling into a spotdodge when they go to attack you, which is very much an offensive technique, despite the spotdodge generally being a defensive move. At the same time, rewarding a player for hitting a foe will reward the player just as much for camping (a highly defensive style of play) as it would for going on the full out offense. In fact, to deal with the camping, the opposing player will probably have to use primarily defensive moves such as the shield or airdodge, causing their tension to go down and the camper's tension to go up, the exact opposite of what we want happening. It's just not something you could integrate into the game very well at all.

Also, there is a combo counter when you play already. It's called training mode. You'll notice a lot of the "combos" you do there don't actually register as combos. It really wouldn't add that much to the game, especially since the really impressive stuff you see in matches actually isn't a true combo. I think a combo counter in brawl+ would actually detract from it.

PS. windboxes

 

[GHNeko]

No. it would add hype.

Get a 2 hit combo. You get sakurai saying "EXTRAWWDINAREE"
3 hit combo. "HE IS ENTERTAINER!!"
4 hit combo. Sakurai Laughs.
5 hit combo. Sakurai says, "WINDBOXES!!!"


i know i'd be trying to get 3 hit and 5 hit combos all the time.

 

[BEES]

For the record, I like wavedashing and if it were in the game, I wouldn't mind. Certainly would make Luigi more fun. I could actually see its inclusion in B+ as a good thing for Melee's competitive scene in the long run. I never tried HAD, but I assume the buffer system would make the timing significantly easier to wavedash than Melee. New players could pick it up relatively quickly, apply it to their strategies, and that would make it easier for them to transition to the strict Melee physics if they ever wanted to try that game.

However, there is still the stigma to worry about. Fear the stigma.

And again this thread is not about wavedashing. It's about windboxes.

 

[TL?]

Idea: Keep current airdodge, but make standing shield and down diagonals do a wavedash/slide sort of thing.

 

[Untouch]

I think I found out how to flip a character around.

There's only one problem though.

It's a variab;e because sarukai is like that :3

 

[GHNeko]

Sakkuurraaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

 

[shanus]

I'm going to shake this thread up at some point this week :D

 

[Untouch]

Apparantly sakurai thought it was a good idea to build the code into marth's down b.

 

[MK26]

MAKE IT NOW SHANUS

SHOW US YOUR NEW WINDBOX TECH

P.S. Sterowent, get in the game, i already made that joke

 

[shanus]

MAKE IT NOW SHANUS

SHOW US YOUR NEW WINDBOX TECH

P.S. Sterowent, get in the game, i already made that joke

Just wait for the trailer

 

[MK26]

and P.P.S., Shanus you need to get a new brawl+ clip for your sig

and respond to my PMs moar

and such

Mulberry Tree

 

[Untouch]

You know it has to be epic if it has a trailer.

 

[shanus]

MK, in response to your PM, yes i would use it.


Untouch, yes it is


HypeM

 

[GHNeko]

how many windboxes does it have!?

 

[Sterowent]

****, i'm like a knock knock comedian. there's nothin wrong with, uh, reusing good material.

and woah...i'll be watching for the cinematic, yeah.
brawl+ with a CGI OPENING OF ITS OWN

someday...

 

[JCaesar]

Mad clues up in here.

 

[Sterowent]

Mad clues up in here.

is...everybody getting...

PSI Mag?

 

[Untouch]

****, i'm like a knock knock comedian. there's nothin wrong with, uh, reusing good material.

and woah...i'll be watching for the cinematic, yeah.
brawl+ with a CGI OPENING OF ITS OWN

someday...

The cutscene better be MK getting killed by every character.

including MK