Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[salaboB]

Exactly, and then it falls into the category of changing the game. It's a completely different game now, one that is alien to the original. I.E., overcentralizing.

That is not what overcentralizing means. You're redefining it to suit what you want.

Someone could completely ignore the food and do just fine, by punishing the other player who might get greedy and go for food that was a bad idea to go for. No playstyles except the degenerate ones that people don't like (Planking and scrooging, notably) would be significantly impacted.

It would notably not become all about collecting the food, and therefore not be overcentralized.

 

[stingers]

err, you act like it's hard to tornado through uairs. I did it quite a bit to gimr at pound4, (he was the only ICs I had in tourney and when I played lain in friendlies he just wanted a bunch of mk dittos and mk vs. snake, no ics for me ) but when you see them jump at you and you're on a platform, you just tornado and you'll win. if they dont get hit, you move somewhere else. it's really, really easy. maybe I just need to play better ICs...

But how does that restrict planking? If a Smash ball comes, MK can just fly around and get it. Then plank more. If there are throwing items, MK can just scrooge. I know this is theory crafting, but it still.

fuuuuuuuuuuuu.
Ok how about MK must touch the ground every 10 seconds and can't go off stage for another 10 seconds.

First off, read the Items Standard Play thread, Smash Balls aren't even legal

And why 10 seconds? Why not 11? Why not 9? Why does creating a limit on touching the ground and going offstage stop MK from stalling you out?

 

[Hylian]

err, you act like it's hard to tornado through uairs. I did it quite a bit to gimr at pound4, (he was the only ICs I had in tourney and when I played lain in friendlies he just wanted a bunch of mk dittos and mk vs. snake, no ics for me ) but when you see them jump at you and you're on a platform, you just tornado and you'll win. if they dont get hit, you move somewhere else. it's really, really easy. maybe I just need to play better ICs...

You realize that MK's nado won't pull in IC's if just the Uair hits right? It's disjointed. You have to do it perfectly, if you miss I can punish you anywhere you go, I know this from experience. I guess it sort of depends on the stage, SV is harder to punish than BF. But even if you do hit ic's with nado they can smash-di up and dair out only taking 2-3% and dealing you over 20%.

It's not a good trade for MK. MK does much better being aggressive and spacing well while trying to kill nana, rather than giving ic's tons of time to rack up damage and get grabs.

 

[Kaffei]

err, you act like it's hard to tornado through uairs. I did it quite a bit to gimr at pound4, (he was the only ICs I had in tourney and when I played lain in friendlies he just wanted a bunch of mk dittos and mk vs. snake, no ics for me ) but when you see them jump at you and you're on a platform, you just tornado and you'll win. if they dont get hit, you move somewhere else. it's really, really easy. maybe I just need to play better ICs...



First off, read the Items Standard Play thread, Smash Balls aren't even legal

And why 10 seconds? Why not 11? Why not 9? Why does creating a limit on touching the ground and going offstage stop MK from stalling you out?

Oh. Could you link it to me? :x
10 seconds, I don't know. It seems like a reasonable enough time for MK to actually get hit.
What if only MK is banned from flying under stages

 

[DMG]

After hitting with Tornado, he could move sideways where Dair from IC's would miss, or where you hit the side of tornado and it just kinda clashes with it. Dair is one thing but it's something the MK player can bait pretty hard once he gets you in.

 

[stingers]

yeah dair doesn't really work well tbqh, keeping all characters with dairs like that against the sides of the nado is just second nature...my friend mains gaw so I'm really used to it personally

and on BF specifically (where I played 2 matches vs gimr) when you're on a platform and ics sh uair you, their heads still get caught by the tornado if you do it at platform level. or maybe he was full hopping every time? it always seemed to work for me "maybe I just need better IC practice"

 

[MarKO X]

Oh. Could you link it to me? :x
10 seconds, I don't know. It seems like a reasonable enough time for MK to actually get hit.
What if only MK is banned from flying under stages

Except, this is not basketball, where we have a shot clock, or in this case, a plank clock or a stall clock.

How could you time it? What's the difference between 9.9 and 10.3 seconds?

Banning MK from going under stages is basically saying, "Yeah, MK is pretty broken. Let's limit him as much as possible so that he can be playable in tournaments."

At that point, you're better off using the BBrawl version of MK.

 

[Hylian]

After hitting with Tornado, he could move sideways where Dair from IC's would miss, or where you hit the side of tornado and it just kinda clashes with it. Dair is one thing but it's something the MK player can bait pretty hard once he gets you in.

Doesn't work. Ic's just pop out the side and under and have time to punish MK.

yeah dair doesn't really work well tbqh, keeping all characters with dairs like that against the sides of the nado is just second nature...my friend mains gaw so I'm really used to it personally

GW has a delay before he starts going down after dair, IC's is considerably faster and they can do it to mk's nado consistently especially considering there is two hitbox's doing it.

and on BF specifically (where I played 2 matches vs gimr) when you're on a platform and ics sh uair you, their heads still get caught by the tornado if you do it at platform level. or maybe he was full hopping every time? it always seemed to work for me "maybe I just need better IC practice"

He was on the top platform. Side platforms are super punishable with blizzard.

 

[Kaffei]

Except, this is not basketball, where we have a shot clock, or in this case, a plank clock or a stall clock.

How could you time it? What's the difference between 9.9 and 10.3 seconds?

Banning MK from going under stages is basically saying, "Yeah, MK is pretty broken. Let's limit him as much as possible so that he can be playable in tournaments."

At that point, you're better off using the BBrawl version of MK.

We could have a judge with a timer or something.. But yeah it's a silly idea you're right.


I don't know. Help me guys

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If MK is not broken then stop artificially limiting him and let him reign. If he needs to be artificially limited, then ban him. It's really that simple.

 

[stingers]

I get what you're saying, but you should apply that sort of logic to everything. jiggs and peach are "artificially limited" in Melee through rising pound/rising bomber bans, but why ban their whole character when you can just limit the small broken parts?

unfortunately, MK has too many ways to get around the rules that people try and put in place for him...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

L-cancelling and the like just increases the tech skill required to play the game. It creates depth and makes the overall game less casual and more appealing to better players.

It also increases the gap between n00bs and players who are dedicated and skilled.

This also doesn't sell well from an economical stand point.

Creating large gaps and forcing huge amounts of tech skill can really turn players off.

Sure this creates a good competitive game, but many people will have a hard time getting into it unless they go out hard core learning it.

 

[Justblaze647]

Tornado is pretty outrageous

and by tornado, I mean spam

 

[Kaffei]

I get what you're saying, but you should apply that sort of logic to everything. jiggs and peach are "artificially limited" in Melee through rising pound/rising bomber bans, but why ban their whole character when you can just limit the small broken parts?

unfortunately, MK has too many ways to get around the rules that people try and put in place for him...

Well, victory is his destiny, after all.

 

[•Col•]

Hmm? If they get caught, then they lose the match. If they don't get caught, that's completely 100% the fault of the opponent, not any unclear rules.

I distinctly remember M2k using in a tournament some time last year against Dojo. M2k was on the ledge and Dojo kept pressuring him, so he dropped from the ledge and jumped up and used the extended dimensional cape to get onto the stage safely. And no, sorry, I looked for 45 minutes and couldn't find the video. I believe it may have been taken down, because.... Well, you know how M2k feels about videos of himself...

And just to be sure, I asked a friend if he remembered anything about it, and he told me the same thing; that M2k used it in a match against Dojo.

 

[stingers]

@Colaya, obviously, Dojo didn't report it to the officials or anything, because it's clearly banned in the ruleset.

If it's not reported, what can the TOs do? I mean, the blame lies solely on Dojo there.

 

[Hylian]

I distinctly remember M2k using in a tournament some time last year against Dojo. M2k was on the ledge and Dojo kept pressuring him, so he dropped from the ledge and jumped up and used the extended dimensional cape to get onto the stage safely. And no, sorry, I looked for 45 minutes and couldn't find the video. I believe it may have been taken down, because.... Well, you know how M2k feels about videos of himself...

And just to be sure, I asked a friend if he remembered anything about it, and he told me the same thing; that M2k used it in a match against Dojo.

Yeah, none of us noticed it there for some reason but we noticed in the video :/.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If MK is not broken then stop artificially limiting him and let him reign. If he needs to be artificially limited, then ban him. It's really that simple.

(unban planking)

 

[Hylian]

@Colaya, obviously, Dojo didn't report it to the officials or anything, because it's clearly banned in the ruleset.

If it's not reported, what can the TOs do? I mean, the blame lies solely on Dojo there.

It was in the grand finals right after dojo 3-0ed M2K the first set. Everyone in the venue was watching and no one noticed including the TO.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I get what you're saying, but you should apply that sort of logic to everything. jiggs and peach are "artificially limited" in Melee through rising pound/rising bomber bans, but why ban their whole character when you can just limit the small broken parts?

unfortunately, MK has too many ways to get around the rules that people try and put in place for him...

An example of a ban that is OK is something like:

"Use of the infinite dimensional cape glitch is banned." This is clear and consise. It is easy to tell when this is being performed and only affects a limited amount of characters (in this case, one).

Another example of a good ban:

"MK and Pit may only fly under the stage one time without touching the ground."

An example of a bad ban is something like:

"Players may only grab the ledge X times in a single game" or "MK may only grab the ledge X times in a single game." These bans do not single out certain moves or techniques, but basic game mecahnics and do so in a way that potentially prohibits natural gameplay (although you probably wouldn't). Saying "players may not glide under the stage" is fine, saying "players may not grab the ledge X times" is not. See the difference?

 

[Kitamerby]

I still want to see what happens if everyone in the tournament decides to use IDC at the exact same time on every TV.

 

[•Col•]

Yeah, none of us noticed it there for some reason but we noticed in the video :/.

Gahhhh, seriously? No one could tell right then? To be honest, with all the people there, I think someone there would have at least SUSPECTED it, as it was almost twice the distance of the normal Dimensional Cape... <_<

But who has the balls to call M2k out on something like that?

 

[stingers]

It sucks that nobody noticed, like really I feel for you...and Dojo because he could've gotten a free win there We were just saying that the rule itself is rock solid, and it's up to the players to make sure that it's enforced

@Supermodel, I literally used the first 2 examples proving the exact same thing already in this thread I'm not stupid...

 

[Kaffei]

Another example of a good ban:

"MK and Pit may only fly under the stage one time without touching the ground."

So can this work or no

 

[stingers]

Lol, yeah that'd work Kaffei, I said that 50 posts ago here...http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9398965&postcount=1173

Unfortunately that only stops Scrooging

 

[Palpi]

"If I can do it you can too!"

Adhd + home wealth success kit logic.

<3

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It sucks that nobody noticed, like really I feel for you...and Dojo because he could've gotten a free win there We were just saying that the rule itself is rock solid, and it's up to the players to make sure that it's enforced

@Supermodel, I literally used the first 2 examples proving the exact same thing already in this thread I'm not stupid...

I don't think you are.

Anyhow, I agree with DMG that certain criteria is needed. I propose:

"If rules must be made for a character that stop him or her from performing basic game mechanics (that is, things every character is capable of doing) then they are bannable." Basically, if MK circumvent can playing matches (avoid combat for the most part or all-together) by using something that isn't specific to the character (and thus bannable without affecting some other aspect of gameplay) then he or she is within ban criteria.

 

[Kaffei]

Lol, yeah that'd work Kaffei, I said that 50 posts ago here...http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9398965&postcount=1173

Unfortunately that only stops Scrooging

But isn't scrooging the main problem for time outs? So it would be a really good rule.. wouldn't it

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The only reason I don't count Planking and Scrooging for MK is because ultimately I believe they fall under something that is already banned.

Stalling.

 

[Kaffei]

The only reason I don't count Planking and Scrooging for MK is because ultimately I believe they fall under something that is already banned.

Stalling.

But people still do it; I don't get it. Is it because they can just say they were playing defensively like stingers said

 

[MarKO X]

So can this work or no

probably not.
all that means is I have to under the stage, plank the ledge, hit the ground as soon as I get an opening to do so, then I can go under the stage again. not nearly as bad, but bad regardless.

 

[stingers]

Scrooging is actually the least of all the problems for time outs, the only really big time it's been used was M2K vs. Meep back at...whatever tourney that was at. Meep just made a big deal out of it (note: not saying he shouldn't have, just saying he did) so we all know about it.

If there wasn't an easy way to stop it then it'd be a much bigger problem, but Scrooging is obviously already defined seeing as how we gave a definition to the term "Scrooging", and because there is a solution to it, we can put things in place to ban it.

Stalling, however...there's a fine fine line between defensive play and stalling, and that's why there's no way to really ban it, unless we want to just play Super Smash Bros Judo and require you to approach at all times.

 

[Lareit]

I find it amusing how many rules and stages are created/banned simply to accommodate a character undisputed as being the best character in the game. The same character that has no disadvantage towards him in either stage or rival character.

And that he hasn't been banned simply to clean the game up and make it more interesting(never mind balance) is quite the amusing spectacle. Truly it speak leagues for the integrity of most players as well as the true motive of greed instead of competition that plagues tournaments.

 

[Kaffei]

Omfg this is annoying.

Okay, well MK can only stall> time out if he has the lead.. right? So why doesn't the other person get a lead first.

Btw stalling irl http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#/video/video.php?v=1327568793077&ref=nf

^ why is that not banned irl

 

[Kitamerby]

I'd hate to fight King Dedede in a judo match.

 

[Big-Cat]

I find it amusing how many rules and stages are created/banned simply to accommodate a character undisputed as being the best character in the game. The same character that has no disadvantage towards him in either stage or rival character.

And that he hasn't been banned simply to clean the game up and make it more interesting(never mind balance) is quite the amusing spectacle. Truly it speak leagues for the integrity of most players as well as the true motive of greed instead of competition that plagues tournaments.

I find it amusing that this is constantly mentioned, yet it's hardly ever addressed.

 

[MarKO X]

Omfg this is annoying.

Okay, well MK can only stall> time out if he has the lead.. right? So why doesn't the other person get a lead first.

Btw stalling irl http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#/video/video.php?v=1327568793077&ref=nf

^ why is that not banned irl

I can't see that video...

thing with MK is... he also has some of the best offensive options in the game, don't you agree?

Also, if you have the lead, you're probably easier to gimp to MK than MK to you, don't you agree?

 

[Kaffei]

I can't see that video...

thing with MK is... he also has some of the best offensive options in the game, don't you agree?

Also, if you have the lead, you're probably easier to gimp to MK than MK to you, don't you agree?

Agreed; The video is just a guy dribbling the ball and timing out so his team won. I think he had uh shot thingy where he stands at the middle or whatever, but he just stalled lol.

What if we remove the timer? Then there would be no time outs, right?

 

[Lareit]

Agreed; The video is just a guy dribbling the ball and timing out so his team won. I think he had uh shot thingy where he stands at the middle or whatever, but he just stalled lol.

What if we remove the timer? Then there would be no time outs, right?

If it's basketball you speak of, they have a shot clock, designed to force the team to shoot the ball. Designed specifically so a team with a lead doesn't just sit in the middle of the court and pass if back and forth the rest of the game.

And Kaffie, that's a interesting proposal but there are two issues.

It's another rule being created simply because of MetaKnights continued existence and it almost ensures tournaments would run noticeably later.

 

[stingers]

@kaffei: tournaments would last forever. literally