Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[stingers]

I can't remember any other time sometime actually ran out the timer by planking/scrooging besides m2k. Of course I know it's bad, but not as bad as everyone is making it out to be.

Ksizl and Dojo have both done it, if you're looking for top level names. M2K is the prime offender.

Top players, time and time again, have been unable to defeat it. If more then the top of the top MKs start learning how to effectively time people out, will it be a problem? It's already being demonstrated at the top of the metagame, and like everything else it will work its way down and mid level players will start doing it too. Nip it in the bud now, before every MK and their mother starts it.

And on the off chance that everyone but the top 3 MKs decide they don't want to do it (LOL, like that'll happen, people play to win, no questions asked, but sure let's be hypothetical), do you want to see the grand finals of every major tourney end in time outs? ...Yeah, I thought so.

 

[Chuee]

If more mks start to plank/srooge then it will really get bad.

 

[Kaffei]

Ksizl and Dojo have both done it, if you're looking for top level names. M2K is the prime offender.

Top players, time and time again, have been unable to defeat it. If more then the top of the top MKs start learning how to effectively time people out, will it be a problem? It's already being demonstrated at the top of the metagame, and like everything else it will work its way down and mid level players will start doing it too. Nip it in the bud now, before every MK and their mother starts it.

And on the off chance that everyone but the top 3 MKs decide they don't want to do it (LOL, like that'll happen, people play to win, no questions asked, but sure let's be hypothetical), do you want to see the grand finals of every major tourney end in time outs? ...Yeah, I thought so.

What would happen if we banned scrooging? Sorry just curious

 

[adumbrodeus]

I can't remember any other time sometime actually ran out the timer by planking/scrooging besides m2k. Of course I know it's bad, but not as bad as everyone is making it out to be.

More because of community pressure then anything else.

I seriously wanna scrooge and event just to make people realize it's an issue.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Elaborate?

And yes I realize the SBR guidelines are a theoretical underpinning; that's why I asked you what you would consider a good criteria for where to draw the line with stall tactics. Leaving it up to TO discretion is an awful way to deal with it, but we can't have MK's hitting you once at the beginning of a match and then planking / scrooging the clock out, and we also can't have unlimited matches, so it's better than nothing at this point.

What I'm suggesting is when an infinite stall is discovered, ban the specific technique.


For example, for scrooging, I'd ban going under the stage (hopefully more precise wording can be found, but for now).


For homing stall, ban hitting stage with homing attack.


IDC ban the technique (since it requires precise input and is easy to see).



So, rather then use an overall criteria, make it specific to the tech,

 

[Orion*]

planking mk is a bad idea

inui tried that **** on me even in the ditto, and i took his stock.

 

[stingers]

What would happen if we banned scrooging? Sorry just curious

Other stalling techniques would reign supreme, the same ones that were bothersome before m2k scrooged meep for the first time. Platform camping, air planking, ledge planking...

People would just bend the rules, there's no solution within the ruleset we currently have. IMO, something drastic is necessary.

 

[Orion*]

Other stalling techniques would reign supreme, the same ones that were bothersome before m2k scrooged meep for the first time. Platform camping, air planking, ledge planking...

People would just bend the rules, there's no solution within the ruleset we currently have. IMO, something drastic is necessary.

platform and air camping arent broken... at all.

 

[xxpatgxx]

Eh, he doesn't deserve to be banned. People like mk, he's great in this game, so people choose him. While his tactics can be gay and such, you're able to pick him just like anyone else. If you choose not to, for whatever reason, that's your perogative.

Just get amazing in this game , so top mks ask to team with you and you have the tactics you hate so much on your side.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

MK should be banned because 1 out of the only 2 that didn't use meta knight at all said so?
Look at the freaking ranking/character list, honestly.

1: ADHD (Diddy)
2: Mew2King (Metaknight)
3: Ally (Snake/Metaknight)
4: KSizzle (Metaknight/Lucario)
5: Shadow_111 (Metaknight)
5: Judge (Metaknight)
7: Havok (Metaknight)
7: Logic (Olimar)
9: Lee Martin (Lucario/Metaknight)
9: Seibrik (Metaknight)

5 out of the top 10 went only meta knight
and
8 out of the top 10 went metaknight as at least secondary.

seriously...

 

[Kaffei]

Eh, he doesn't deserve to be banned. People like mk, he's great in this game, so people choose him. While his tactics can be gay and such, you're able to pick him just like anyone else. If you choose not to, for whatever reason, that's your perogative.

Just get amazing in this game , so top mks ask to team with you and you have the tactics you hate so much on your side.

I like this post.

MK should be banned because 1 out of the only 2 that didn't use meta knight at all said so?
Look at the freaking ranking/character list, honestly.

1: ADHD (Diddy)
2: Mew2King (Metaknight)
3: Ally (Snake/Metaknight)
4: KSizzle (Metaknight/Lucario)
5: Shadow_111 (Metaknight)
5: Judge (Metaknight)
7: Havok (Metaknight)
7: Logic (Olimar)
9: Lee Martin (Lucario/Metaknight)
9: Seibrik (Metaknight)

5 out of the top 10 went only meta knight
and
8 out of the top 10 went metaknight as at least secondary.

seriously...

Or maybe people should stop QQing and get better with different high tiers.

 

[stingers]

there are characters who are completely shut down by it, you have to admit. if you look at the top of the metagame - dojo beat larry with it on bf, and larry is considered the 2nd best on the west coast behind tyrant (as well as an MK slayer). plank vs. dapuffster is a great example between mid to high level players. it happens at all levels, but people just...ignore it, because there's no way you could create a rule against it.

 

[•Col•]

For homing stall, ban hitting stage with homing attack.

You don't have to ban hitting the stage with homing attack, because just freaking look at the name.... Homing STALLING... It's a form of stalling, very similiar to the trick Peach had in Melee where she could continually use her Peach Bomber attack against the wall of a stage (like on Yoshi's Island) so many characters could not reach her. Besides, homing stalling is just stupid to try, because if the opponent starts side stepping, the homing attack won't lock onto a target, and Sonic will be shot down into the death zone.

Banning going under the stage is just stupid as well.... Because it is still a valid tactic for certain characters to recover, like Rob and Pit, not just MK.

 

[stingers]

There are solid anti-scrooging rules...here's the one I'm using at my tournament

- Any character is only allowed to go under the stage once. After flying under the stage, they are not allowed to do so again until they have STOOD on the stage (not ledge grabbed).

Scrooging is the only stalling tactic that really is easy to rule against.

Before anyone says it, sure, they could fly under the stage, jump up and touch the stage for a second and fly back again, but they're still putting themselves out in the open, so it's something.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You don't have to ban hitting the stage with homing attack, because just freaking look at the name.... Homing STALLING... It's a form of stalling, very similiar to the trick Peach had in Melee where she could continually use her Peach Bomber attack against the wall of a stage (like on Yoshi's Island) so many characters could not reach her. Besides, homing stalling is just stupid to try, because if the opponent starts side stepping, the homing attack won't lock onto a target, and Sonic will be shot down into the death zone.

Banning going under the stage is just stupid as well.... Because it is still a valid tactic for certain characters to recover, like Rob and Pit, not just MK.

I've heard it stated that it will go to the stage with proper positioning.


As far as going under the stage, is or is not infinite stalling a greater concern? We banned IDC in spite of possible legimate uses for the technique for the same reason.

 

[Kaffei]

Other stalling techniques would reign supreme, the same ones that were bothersome before m2k scrooged meep for the first time. Platform camping, air planking, ledge planking...

People would just bend the rules, there's no solution within the ruleset we currently have. IMO, something drastic is necessary.

Why don't we just ban those for MK then

 

[stingers]

Sure, make a rock solid rule that bans those for MK, quantifying exactly when you cross the line from defensive play into planking/stalling/what have you, that doesn't require anyone to judge whether the event is actually happening or not...and I'm sure it'd be implemented.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

you coooooouuuuuuld, just change metaknight so hes not ********, use the sd loader thing that's being used for B+ with a just metaknight hacked version.

take his gay away >.>

 

[Showmeyourmoves71]

How about we split the tournaments in half: one half will have all the characters, while the other half will have every character EXCEPT metaknight. Then we wait and see...

 

[RDK]

you coooooouuuuuuld, just change metaknight so hes not ********, use the sd loader thing that's being used for B+ with a just metaknight hacked version.

take his gay away >.>

As great as Brawl+ and Project M are, hacked consoles will never be the tournament standard.

Which is sad because hacked Brawl is such a better game than Brawl in every respect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxA9jHvfWPc

 

[Kaffei]

Sure, make a rock solid rule that bans those for MK, quantifying exactly when you cross the line from defensive play into planking/stalling/what have you, that doesn't require anyone to judge whether the event is actually happening or not...and I'm sure it'd be implemented.

-Doesn't understand-

>_<

 

[Big-Cat]

As great as Brawl+ and Project M are, hacked consoles will never be the tournament standard.

Which is sad because hacked Brawl is such a better game than Brawl in every respect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxA9jHvfWPc

While I see L-Canceling unnecessary (is there a time where you DON'T want to do it?), I may have to get myself a used Brawl disc and start playing this instead.

 

[RDK]

While I see L-Canceling unnecessary (is there a time where you DON'T want to do it?), I may have to get myself a used Brawl disc and start playing this instead.

L-cancelling and the like just increases the tech skill required to play the game. It creates depth and makes the overall game less casual and more appealing to better players.

It also increases the gap between n00bs and players who are dedicated and skilled.

 

[stingers]

Basically Kaffei, can you think of a rule that bans stalling techniques for only MK that can't be bended?

A rule like "IDC is banned" is rock solid, you know you're not allowed to extend your dimensional cape, and if you do you lose the match. Something like that, to ban stalling with Meta Knight

 

[MarKO X]

-Doesn't understand-

>_<

in other words...

it's a thin line between extended defensive position and stalling.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

MK should be banned because 1 out of the only 2 that didn't use meta knight at all said so?
Look at the freaking ranking/character list, honestly.

1: ADHD (Diddy)
2: Mew2King (Metaknight)
3: Ally (Snake/Metaknight)
4: KSizzle (Metaknight/Lucario)
5: Shadow_111 (Metaknight)
5: Judge (Metaknight)
7: Havok (Metaknight)
7: Logic (Olimar)
9: Lee Martin (Lucario/Metaknight)
9: Seibrik (Metaknight)

5 out of the top 10 went only meta knight
and
8 out of the top 10 went metaknight as at least secondary.

seriously...

Funny, I don't see Lain and Ninjalink there even though they placed the exact same as Lee and Seibrik.
Blatantly skewing statistics much? There's no such thing as "top 10" in a Brawl tourney bracket.

 

[Hylian]

there are characters who are completely shut down by it, you have to admit. if you look at the top of the metagame - dojo beat larry with it on bf, and larry is considered the 2nd best on the west coast behind tyrant (as well as an MK slayer). plank vs. dapuffster is a great example between mid to high level players. it happens at all levels, but people just...ignore it, because there's no way you could create a rule against it.

The next time Dojo/Larry played in tournament at Active Gamers Dojo won 2-0 without air camping at all and it wasn't as close. He just aircamped the first time because he had no idea what to do.

 

[Big-Cat]

L-cancelling and the like just increases the tech skill required to play the game. It creates depth and makes the overall game less casual and more appealing to better players.

It also increases the gap between n00bs and players who are dedicated and skilled.

But like the penalty for doing techs early, it's an unnecessary difficulty. I'd rather see skill in applying techniques that are easy to learn (like an air dash idea I have in mind), and I don't see this any more than just a indicator that you have good timing.

 

[•Col•]

Basically Kaffei, can you think of a rule that bans stalling techniques for only MK that can't be bended?

A rule like "IDC is banned" is rock solid, you know you're not allowed to extend your dimensional cape, and if you do you lose the match. Something like that, to ban stalling with Meta Knight

Funny you say that it's rock solid, considering people still extend the Dimensional Cape without any repercussions.

 

[stingers]

The next time Dojo/Larry played in tournament at Active Gamers Dojo won 2-0 without air camping at all and it wasn't as close. He just aircamped the first time because he had no idea what to do.

That's good for Dojo...he won a matchup he didn't know with a broken tactic

Funny you say that it's rock solid, considering people still extend the Dimensional Cape without any repercussions.

Hmm? If they get caught, then they lose the match. If they don't get caught, that's completely 100% the fault of the opponent, not any unclear rules.

 

[Kaffei]

Basically Kaffei, can you think of a rule that bans stalling techniques for only MK that can't be bended?

A rule like "IDC is banned" is rock solid, you know you're not allowed to extend your dimensional cape, and if you do you lose the match. Something like that, to ban stalling with Meta Knight

What about... You can't time out on purpose to win.
o-o

 

[stingers]

What about... You can't time out on purpose to win.
o-o

Lol, yeah, see? It's not that easy, which is exactly why something has to be done -,-

 

[theunabletable]

@Hylian: Larry's better at the MK matchup now.

I think it'd be a really close match now.

 

[Hylian]

That's good for Dojo...he won a matchup he didn't know with a broken tactic


Hmm? If they get caught, then they lose the match. If they don't get caught, that's completely 100% the fault of the opponent, not any unclear rules.

The point was he did better without air camping because air campings not broken. That's one of the reasons you see IC's beating mk's a lot, because they try to aircamp ic's and it doesn't work at all lol.

 

[Kaffei]

Lol, yeah, see? It's not that easy, which is exactly why something has to be done -,-

But does that work? I mean "no timing out on purpose to win"

 

[MarKO X]

What about... You can't time out on purpose to win.
o-o

What about... you can't tell if a match timed out on purpose or not.

One can argue that he wanted to approach, but didn't have a safe opportunity to do so, and thus waited for an opportunity that never came.

You know, when you're in the lead in a timed game, you're not obligated to approach your opponent.

 

[stingers]

But does that work? I mean "no timing out on purpose to win"

Err, no, not at all >.> All the dude has to say was "I didn't mean to time him out, I was just taking a defensive position and he didn't approach me."

@Hylian, I've seen ICs get platform camped many, many times. Air planking only works when the MK has the option of having a platform to go back to...really, Air and Platform camping are really the same thing (I guess it's special on SV, but whatever, **** that stage anyway :embarrass). And about the Dojo example, you said he learned the matchup, right? Of course he's gonna do better...and it's far easier to win without timing someone out if you know the matchup because MK is stupid like that, the thing is you can coast to victory without knowing a thing about the matchup with a universal tactic that hardly any characters have any answer to.

 

[Kaffei]

What about... you can't tell if a match timed out on purpose or not.

One can argue that he wanted to approach, but didn't have a safe opportunity to do so, and thus waited for an opportunity that never came.

You know, when you're in the lead in a timed game, you're not obligated to approach your opponent.

Oh, right.

Ugh this is hard. More ideas plzzz..uh.... What if we banned gay stages for MK.. but that's like all of them right

 

[stingers]

Kaffei, if you think of any rules that can be implemented short of banning the character, you'll be the first to do so.

The only option I can think of without banning the character is just changing the default settings, ie. Items Standard Play.

 

[Kaffei]

Kaffei, if you think of any rules that can be implemented short of banning the character, you'll be the first to do so.

The only option I can think of without banning the character is just changing the default settings, ie. Items Standard Play.

But how does that restrict planking? If a Smash ball comes, MK can just fly around and get it. Then plank more. If there are throwing items, MK can just scrooge. I know this is theory crafting, but it still.

fuuuuuuuuuuuu.
Ok how about MK must touch the ground every 10 seconds and can't go off stage for another 10 seconds.

 

[Hylian]

Err, no, not at all >.> All the dude has to say was "I didn't mean to time him out, I was just taking a defensive position and he didn't approach me."

@Hylian, I've seen ICs get platform camped many, many times. Air planking only works when the MK has the option of having a platform to go back to...really, Air and Platform camping are really the same thing (I guess it's special on SV, but whatever, **** that stage anyway :embarrass). And about the Dojo example, you said he learned the matchup, right? Of course he's gonna do better...and it's far easier to win without timing someone out if you know the matchup because MK is stupid like that, the thing is you can coast to victory without knowing a thing about the matchup with a universal tactic that hardly any characters have any answer to.

Have you seen me/lain/meep get platform camped? It's generally not a good idea unless you REALLY know what you are doing with mk and can bait uair well into nado and even then it's risky. IC's uair does like 21% and combos into itself, aircamping gives ics tons of oppertunities to gain the % lead and then just camp under a platform where it becomes very hard for mk to get past the walls. I've beaten many mk's like this, including dojo.