Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[RDK]

The point is to discourage planking/stalling. If it's DDD vs MK, and MK is stalling out DDD and is winning by 10%, DDD can grab food while MK is stalling so that MK has to fight again and can't just stall out. As for your reference to over-centralizing because of food, that would have merit if it were on high/medium. But, unless one player is planking/stalling a significant amount the effect of the food is negligent.

This is actually interesting; I never thought of it that way.

However I'd much rather leave it up to TO discretion as to how to go about making a call on planking than turning any kind of item on at all.

I said AN aka Atlantic North, not complaining about the SBR here, AN's ruleset is a lot more scrubby.

Oh okay, I wasn't aware that Atlantic North banned D3 inf. and planking.

When you TO do you personally go by AN standards?

 

[D1]

How long have people been arguing over MK?

This is a sign.

Fact.

 

[stingers]

I kind of feel like...my long post...is being ignored

 

[Chuee]

I said AN aka Atlantic North, not complaining about the SBR here, AN's ruleset is a lot more scrubby.

Yet they're the best region.
hmmmm

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is actually interesting; I never thought of it that way.

However I'd much rather leave it up to TO discretion as to how to go about making a call on planking than turning any kind of item on at all.

I hate "reff discretion" a lot more. At least having food on low rewards something worthwhile and doesn't force us to use "TO decision" for in-game rulings.

Oh okay, I wasn't aware that Atlantic North banned D3 inf. and planking.

When you TO do you personally go by AN standards?

Haven't TO'd yet, but the point of my rant was that I'm feeling forced to go by AN standards if I wanna get players, can't really oppose until I've got clout. I might be able to get away with one of the 3, but all 3, no way.

 

[KrazyGlue]

I kind of feel like...my long post...is being ignored

Hold on, I'm responding...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yet they're the best region.
hmmmm

Yea, I take it as consolation. Except that I might be able to place in the money in a melee tournament if everybody wasn't so good.

How long have people been arguing over MK?

This is a sign.

Fact.

Definitely, I remarked on it before.

I kind of feel like...my long post...is being ignored

Welcome to my world.

 

[orange/xd]

wait since when was atlantic north the best region

 

[RDK]

I hate "reff discretion" a lot more. At least having food on low rewards something worthwhile and doesn't force us to use "TO decision" for in-game rulings.

What constitutes excessive stalling is up to the reffs too. It's just hard to have an objective standard about where we draw the line with stall tactics.

 

[Kaffei]

Banning a character is not fair for the people who main the character for actually being the character, not a tool to win.
There's gotta be something else we can do :/

 

[MarKO X]

wait since when was atlantic north the best region

Since Inui said it.

I dunno, pick a national tourney. Check it's results. See what happens.

(if you can prove another region being better than AN with consistent national tourney results, power to you. crews as well maybe...)

 

[MarKO X]

What constitutes excessive stalling is up to the reffs too. It's just hard to have an objective standard about where we draw the line with stall tactics.

So how can you enforce it?

 

[stingers]

Banning a character is not fair for the people who main the character for actually being the character, not a tool to win.
There's gotta be something else we can do :/

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9397705&postcount=1112

read it!

 

[RDK]

Since Inui said it.

I dunno, pick a national tourney. Check it's results. See what happens.

(if you can prove another region being better than AN with consistent national tourney results, power to you. crews as well maybe...)

If anything I would say it's the tri-state area; all the best players right now are from there.

Although I admit the results are a tad skewed since I stopped playing. M2K is lucky I don't take up Brawl again.

So how can you enforce it?

That's up to the TO's.

 

[KrazyGlue]

In the interest of a more interesting meta game, I see two options. Namely, people can't be trusted not to stall the **** out of matches. Which is fine in that they're playing to win, but on the other hand, it's literally killing the metagame...and if we let it continue then Brawl will die in a year or two.

And how long have we been saying this. I bet in a year or two, pro-bans will still be saying "It's gonna die out! In a year or two! Just wait!"

Really I've seen no sign of this stopping.

Just think about Pound 4, and all the stupid stalling **** that happened there. Atomsk/Lee vs. Ling Ling/Excel, M2K/Ally, Ksizl/Ally, etc...the way Brawl is going now is just plain uninteresting. None of us get excited over systematic, deliberate, and unbeatable stalling. If you say you do, you're a liar. I dare you to sit through an 8 minute match of nothing but watching M2K scrooge some ICs on Smashville and tell me that the match grabbed your attention the whole time.

Ban scrooging? Oh, well then he counterpicks FD next time and planks the ledge.

Ledge grab rules? Oh, he'll just go to back SV and platform camp him the whole time. He bans SV? Oh, he'll just pick one of his many other campable stages, like Rainbow Cruise, or Battlefield, or Brinstar, or Delfino or Halberd...there's no way to stop it. And let the metagame continue to evolve in the direction we are already watching it go towards and I can guarantee you that Brawl will be dead within a year, 2 at max.

You make it sound like this is what happens EVERY SINGLE MATCH. When the fact is M2K for the most part just flat out beats people. You make it sound like every match M2K enters, he does one mach tornado then camps out the other 7:50:00. And you also make it sound like it works every time.

And yeah... brawl is not going to die. That's just a fearmongering slogan that lacks any base in fact.

If you don't see a problem, you sincerely lack foresight. There has been enough precedent set already that what I said cannot be called baseless conjecture. There have been too many times where the Brawl Community has said, "Oh, just let the metagame evolve and it'll all work out in the end." Anyone with this mindset is supporting the death of the game, because we all know now what an evolved metagame looks like. Barring some extremely convenient glitch being found that will rid us of these problems, we need to act now. Here are the two options I PERSONALLY (!!) see. If you have any other ideas, please share them. If one of your other ideas is to do nothing, then just don't say it, because it's not working.

Again, throw in some fearmongering propaganda. "Supporting the death of the game"? Really?

* 1. Legalize items and keep MK
Why do I think that items are the solution to the problem? Take a look at Jack Kieser's Items Standard Play thread to look at what they currently consider legal items.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675

(Sandbag) (Food) (Warp Star) (Bunny Hood) (Beam Sword) (Lip’s Stick) (Star Rod) (Super Scope) (Fire Flower) (Motion Sensor Bomb) (Freezie) (Smoke Ball) (Pitfall) (Mr. Saturn) (Green Shell) (Banana Peel) (Franklin Badge) (Screw Attack)

With the following items available as Counterpick items (read the thread if you're confused about the idea of Counterpicking items):
(Assist Trophy) (Dragoon) (Metal Box) (Home-Run Bat) (Hammer) (Ray Gun) (Cracker Launcher) (Gooey Bomb) (Hothead) (Spring) (Unira)

Now, considering just the items on random. How could these items collectively change the metagame enough that MK's Planking isn't an issue? Instead of going through them one by one, just look at them enough to see how many of them can be used to SAFELY combat 1. A character on the ledge, 2. A character in the air, and 3. A character under the stage.

The only major problem there is #3, none of those items can effectively combat a character under the stage. Of course, through the beauty of Counterpick items, Hotheads (or Dragoons, maybe) become situational but effective anti-scrooging options. However, this all relies on random spawn, right? Of course, but you have to consider that merely by stalling in a manner that prevents you from reaching them, there's a 99% chance that they're also giving up the opportunity to grab an item before you. This actually gives decisive, fullproof ramifications to avoiding combat on or off the stage. And I'll leave it at that.

Items are an interesting idea... I wouldn't make them a requirement but item tournies are kind of interesting and add a strategic element. They would also, of course, set a random element as well, which I don't like. So I wouldn't put it in the SBR recommended ruleset, but I wouldn't mind seeing a few item tournies.

What puzzles me is if people are SO worried about stalling, why don't they just vouch for the clock to be turned off? Matches rarely go for 8 minutes unless there's clock stalling involved, and without a timer that wouldn't be an issue.

* 2. Ban MK and leave things the way they are
This has been debated to hell and back, and you all have an opinion on it. I'll just ask you to consider what you've already read in this post, and I'll remind you that MK is the only problem character that has ways of getting around the ledge grab rule. Pit and Charizard can both glide (making scrooging possible), but neither of them have safe recovery options outside of that, making it riskier (I'd argue that Pit's Up B isn't considered safe when you're dealing with being off the stage 100% of the time). Kirby and Jigglypuff are the only characters besides MK that can really air camp (Pit and Charizard both have 3, IIRC, which doesn't really give them enough airtime to safely camp the way MK can), however, they don't have the safety that MK has during the eventual retreat back down to earth that makes MK's air camping so dangerous.

Anyway, I hope that people read this and give a serious opinion on what I just said. I'm writing this purely in hopes of a better Brawl metagame, because nobody likes the one we're facing today. Thanks.

You're right, it's been debated to hell and back so I'm not even gonna say anything.


-----------------------------


Sorry if I was a bit harsh...

No hard feelings

 

[WindMajor]

I kind of feel like...my long post...is being ignored

I've seen a lot of the better arguments in this thread go ignored. Don't worry, it's okay.

 

[Chuee]

wait since when was atlantic north the best region

Since the beginning of brawl. They had m2k to start with and even with him leaving they're still the best.

 

[Orion*]

assuming scrooging/planking is banned, why does it matter if you get timed out?
as long as characters have options to win if they make the correct bait/read, then i dont see why its such a huge problem. its not a fool proof strategy at all, its just boring and people get agitated A lot when they lose to it.


btw. items for a side event at a tournament sounds legit fun.

 

[stingers]

What puzzles me is if people are SO worried about stalling, why don't they just vouch for the clock to be turned off? Matches rarely go for 8 minutes unless there's clock stalling involved, and without a timer that wouldn't be an issue.

Tournaments can't last all night, basically. This just becomes a battle of the wills and say this happened in the grand finals of some major tournament. Would you get off your ledge and risk losing $1000, or play it safe and make them come to you?

You make it sound like this is what happens EVERY SINGLE MATCH. When the fact is M2K for the most part just flat out beats people. You make it sound like every match M2K enters, he does one mach tornado then camps out the other 7:50:00. And you also make it sound like it works every time.

Of course, M2K flat out beats the vast majority of people, because he's better than the vast majority of people. Of course, when the time comes he finds someone he's equal with (or loses to, maybe)...uh-oh, there goes the scrooging (meep), or just plain stalling (gnes at winterfest, ally at pound, etc...)

 

[MarKO X]

turning off the clock doesn't guarantee a lack of stalling.

turning off the clock PLUS a ledge grab rule and a no-scrooging rule... now that might be able to make things "interesting"... if that's what you're looking for... but I still think a ruleset like that (no clock, ledge grab, no-scrooging) is flawed somehow... i just wouldn't know how.

 

[WindMajor]

What puzzles me is if people are SO worried about stalling, why don't they just vouch for the clock to be turned off? Matches rarely go for 8 minutes unless there's clock stalling involved, and without a timer that wouldn't be an issue.

I've thought of this for a while, but if this were the case, then technically, if I could, I would plank, scrooge, and air camp until the venue closes.

 

[Kaffei]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9397705&postcount=1112

read it!

I already read it, and I like the items idea, but a lot of people will disagree.
I'd rather ban Tornado than ban Meta Knight himself..

 

[RDK]

Items are an interesting idea... I wouldn't make them a requirement but item tournies are kind of interesting and add a strategic element. They would also, of course, set a random element as well, which I don't like. So I wouldn't put it in the SBR recommended ruleset, but I wouldn't mind seeing a few item tournies.

What puzzles me is if people are SO worried about stalling, why don't they just vouch for the clock to be turned off? Matches rarely go for 8 minutes unless there's clock stalling involved, and without a timer that wouldn't be an issue.

It has to do with time management. Tournies would go 2 or 3 days if every match was untimed.

Plus if someone decides to plank it out during an untimed match you still have to draw a line.

Since the beginning of brawl. They had m2k to start with and even with him leaving they're still the best.

Ummm.....lol M2K is from Jersey.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What constitutes excessive stalling is up to the reffs too. It's just hard to have an objective standard about where we draw the line with stall tactics.

Point by point ban of stall tactics as they're discovered is what I advocate.


Homing stall ban, ban of going under the stage, we'll figure out specific actions and address them. Excessive stalling as defined in the SBR ruleset is a theoretical underpinning, NOT a hard and fast rule.

 

[stingers]

Kaffei, Everyone that's said something since I've posted that longass post has agreed in some way with items. Of course, most people just ignored it but that doesn't change the fact that there hasn't been any vehement opposition to my items proposal yet.

 

[Kaffei]

Kaffei, Everyone that's said something since I've posted that longass post has agreed in some way with items. Of course, most people just ignored it but that doesn't change the fact that there hasn't been any vehement opposition to my items proposal yet.

That is true.

 

[Scidadle]

MK is dumb.

If he were banned the game would be a lot better.

Just cause he's dumb

 

[KrazyGlue]

Tournaments can't last all night, basically. This just becomes a battle of the wills and say this happened in the grand finals of some major tournament. Would you get off your ledge and risk losing $1000, or play it safe and make them come to you?

Ah, true.

Of course, M2K flat out beats the vast majority of people, because he's better than the vast majority of people. Of course, when the time comes he finds someone he's equal with (or loses to, maybe)...uh-oh, there goes the scrooging (meep), or just plain stalling (gnes at winterfest, ally at pound, etc...)

Yeah, I have seen a few examples of that... Even happened in one of the finals games at pound against ADHD. Still, I'd like to think there could be an effective ruleset to counter that as opposed to just banning the character. Like you've said, kirby can pull off the same tactics almost as well. Although it's not quite as successful, if someone is really that hungry for money I'm sure a good Kirby or Jiggz player could master the tactic.

 

[Kaffei]

MK is dumb.

If he were banned the game would be a lot better.

Just cause he's dumb

Psh have you watched the show? He knows like everything.

 

[Chuee]

MK is dumb.

If he were banned the game would be a lot better.

Just cause he's dumb

mk is stupid. Lets ban

 

[Orion*]

Point by point ban of stall tactics as they're discovered is what I advocate.

if theyre beatable. WHY ban stall tactics. thats my issue

 

[stingers]

Although it's not quite as successful, if someone is really that hungry for money I'm sure a good Kirby or Jiggz player could master the tactic.

That's the kicker. Basically, none of them are nearly as safe as Meta when they try to stall the match out. No disjoints, no glide, terrible options once they're out of jumps (compared to MK's "All of my specials are recovery moves")...they just aren't good at it like Meta is.

 

[Chuee]

Why ban them when they rarely ever happen.

 

[RDK]

Ah, true.




Yeah, I have seen a few examples of that... Even happened in one of the finals games at pound against ADHD. Still, I'd like to think there could be an effective ruleset to counter that as opposed to just banning the character. Like you've said, kirby can pull off the same tactics almost as well. Although it's not quite as successful, if someone is really that hungry for money I'm sure a good Kirby or Jiggz player could master the tactic.

Actually I would go as far to say that it's just as effective with Kirby as it is with MK. You'd be surprised how easy it is to do with him; try it sometime.

The only problem is that there aren't nearly as many Kirby players as there are MK players. Plus Kirby has disadvantageous matchups, one of them being MK.

So in a plank fight MK would probably win.

 

[stingers]

Why ban them when they rarely ever happen.

Because they happen.
And there are many publicized examples of this happening at the top level, with top players being unable to defeat it.

Are you trolling?

 

[Kaffei]

mk is stupid. Lets ban

:'(

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Since Inui said it.

I dunno, pick a national tourney. Check it's results. See what happens.

(if you can prove another region being better than AN with consistent national tourney results, power to you. crews as well maybe...)

According to Alphazealot genesis has been the only real national because it had competition from everywhere and AN didn't seem to do that hot there everything looked even to me.

Whobo maybe the only other one since it had midwest south AN AS and the west cost but no ally. He is from canada but still no ally sounds bad

I think AN only seems like the best because they have more chances to play M2K ally but theres really a lot of people from every region that can beat them not just ksizzle and adhd.

edit: has anyone ever actually been banned for stalling? i always see the reason being planking

 

[RDK]

Point by point ban of stall tactics as they're discovered is what I advocate.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Elaborate?

And yes I realize the SBR guidelines are a theoretical underpinning; that's why I asked you what you would consider a good criteria for where to draw the line with stall tactics. Leaving it up to TO discretion is an awful way to deal with it, but we can't have MK's hitting you once at the beginning of a match and then planking / scrooging the clock out, and we also can't have unlimited matches, so it's better than nothing at this point.

Arturio, planking is an extension of stalling.

 

[adumbrodeus]

if theyre beatable. WHY ban stall tactics. thats my issue

The way our ruleset defines stalling it's only stalling if it's not beatable, otherwise it's some form of defensive play, usually camping.

 

[Chuee]

Because they happen.
And there are many publicized examples of this happening at the top level, with top players being unable to defeat it.

Are you trolling?

I can't remember any other time sometime actually ran out the timer by planking/scrooging besides m2k. Of course I know it's bad, but not as bad as everyone is making it out to be.