Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[Dekar173]

thanks alot tho! i got home and practiced that stuff. i couldnt see that much it was useful when you were teaching me then but now i see the awesomeness!! thanks again!

Keep practicing and you'll soon realize that the MK:Diddy mu is 60:40 at least lol ~.~

 

[DanGR]

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Guys... you're not solving anything by making all these threads.

Pro-ban, switch to MK and prove he's lame or w/e like I've been doing. (lolsmashville)

Anti-ban, go... I dunno. Try to find a legitimately bad matchup for MK.

 

[Allied]

Yeah DanGR niether is taking a screenshot of brawl tactical discussion XD

 

[Punishment Divine]

MK's dominance isn't as evident by looking at matchup ratios and theory...

I don't really have an opinion on this anymore but I must say it was upsetting to see all the MK at P4 along with the fact that many great players with their own characters (Atomsk, Ally, PRiDE, Snakeee, Lee, Hunger, Pierce, etc.) are picking up and/or chiefly using MK now.

I would also like to add that people need to stop thinking smash is an actual fighting game and, thus, rules like those set forth by Sirlin cannot always apply.

At this point, I don't care whether he stays or goes but if he went, I wouldn't miss him.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Really good piece of anti-ban propaganda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmm0J6KIwfQ&feature=sub

So, look how gay MK is! Am I right! That D-Air camping! That tornado! That Down SMASH! He can just stay on that platform all day! How broken!

Now look at the ICs. The MK makes ONE TINY MISTAKE. Does he even do this? Not really. He tornado'd. It's just an attack. Maybe it wasn't the best one, but a mistake? Not exactly. What happens next? The MK is CG'd to death.

My point is, we all play a gay game. Yes MK is stupidly good, but so what? IC's kill you from one grab, Snake NEVER ****ING DIES and UTILTS YOUR *** for the kill at like 100% from half way across FD, Diddy shuts down your every move with bananas, Falco CGs and lazers your for 8 minutes, Wario airdodge around platforms for 8 minutes, hell, EVEN Ganon kills around 0% with Dair offstage and like 90% onstage.

MK's advantages are more obvious than everyone else. Is he the best? Probably. Is he really that much better then the second, whoever that is? No.


That's odd. I never post like this. It's just oddly formatted. Hopefully legible?

 

[demonictoonlink]

Double post to clarify: I'm not saying Ganon is even playable. Just making a point... :/

 

[Punishment Divine]

Also to the above, that was a very poorly spaced tornado. What Judge basically did there was dash attack into a ready Lain. Anyone with a basic understanding of how an MK plays ca pivot grab MK out of a badly spaced nado like that.

Not justifying IC grabs but Judge did make a lot of mistakes in that match

 

[HeroMystic]

What we need is a post (maybe a new thread) listing all of the arguments from pro-ban and anti-ban, with clear evidence from both sides, with no sign of bias from the poster. That way, an actual discussion can be done rather than random bickering and Jesus being discovered in this thread.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

While I do think the game would be much better off with MK banned. Even with Pound 4 with four MK's and two Lucario/MK's I don't see it being enough to ban him.

While it may lead into the not stopping the damage fast enough argument, tournament attendance is still going up so I can't really support a pro-ban argument quite yet.

 

[solecalibur]

I dont really understand why people want to wait for the game to die before we make conclusions

 

[Megavitamins]

Popular opinion has Marth going even with DK and losing slightly to Snake. I was stating MY opinion. Neo thinks Marth beats DK. Almost all of us think Marth loses to ROB.

I am different!

Marth beats Rob I think.

 

[Boxob.]

I dont really understand why people want to wait for the game to die before we make conclusions

I don't understand your question.

 

[Dekar173]

I beat the **** out of Chibo with my Marth lol

 

[hunger!]

MK's dominance isn't as evident by looking at matchup ratios and theory...

I don't really have an opinion on this anymore but I must say it was upsetting to see all the MK at P4 along with the fact that many great players with their own characters (Atomsk, Ally, PRiDE, Snakeee, Lee, Hunger, Pierce, etc.) are picking up and/or chiefly using MK now.

I would also like to add that people need to stop thinking smash is an actual fighting game and, thus, rules like those set forth by Sirlin cannot always apply.

At this point, I don't care whether he stays or goes but if he went, I wouldn't miss him.

lol i ONLY go mk in pools vs D3's. and thats just being lazy cause i dont feel like camping with my main if it's pools. i have many secondaries. mk is not one of them. hes like 13th on my list of characters.

<3 ya divine.

 

[WindMajor]

What we need is a post (maybe a new thread) listing all of the arguments from pro-ban and anti-ban, with clear evidence from both sides, with no sign of bias from the poster. That way, an actual discussion can be done rather than random bickering and Jesus being discovered in this thread.

If Jesus were to be discovered in this thread, I think he would beat Metaknight. But yeah, I agree with what you're saying, but I would just keep it in this thread instead of making a new one. It probably wouldn't even matter though, because the SBR-B most likely isn't going to do anything about us. We would just be wasting our time, except for Jack, since he's practicing for IRL stuff.

I don't understand your question.

It wasn't a question, it was a statement. The poster forgot to put a punctuation mark. Just saying.

 

[Boxob.]

It wasn't a question, it was a statement. The poster forgot to put a punctuation mark. Just saying.

How? It's hardly a statement.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Really good piece of anti-ban propaganda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmm0J6KIwfQ&feature=sub

So, look how gay MK is! Am I right! That D-Air camping! That tornado! That Down SMASH! He can just stay on that platform all day! How broken!

Now look at the ICs. The MK makes ONE TINY MISTAKE. Does he even do this? Not really. He tornado'd. It's just an attack. Maybe it wasn't the best one, but a mistake? Not exactly. What happens next? The MK is CG'd to death.

My point is, we all play a gay game. Yes MK is stupidly good, but so what? IC's kill you from one grab, Snake NEVER ****ING DIES and UTILTS YOUR *** for the kill at like 100% from half way across FD, Diddy shuts down your every move with bananas, Falco CGs and lazers your for 8 minutes, Wario airdodge around platforms for 8 minutes, hell, EVEN Ganon kills around 0% with Dair offstage and like 90% onstage.

MK's advantages are more obvious than everyone else. Is he the best? Probably. Is he really that much better then the second, whoever that is? No.


That's odd. I never post like this. It's just oddly formatted. Hopefully legible?

The pivot grab on the nado was sexy as hell but I think you're own to something IC are broken and they should be banned that CG is bull ****.

 

[BBQ°]

Brawl's metagame should be nothing but Luigi dittos.

Now that's a man's game.

 

[WindMajor]

I dont really understand why people want to wait for the game to die before we make conclusions

How? It's hardly a statement.

It's not a question either.

You know what? Why don't we just drop the grammar talk here? It's not relevant to the main topic, and it's just a plain bad topic to go off-topic with.

Brawl's metagame should be nothing but Falcon dittos.

Now that's a man's game.

Fixed.

 

[DMG]

1 mistake, MK gets *****

1 mistake, IC player gets *****

MK has better tools to avoid the ****

This means MK wins

Done. Good Game.

When talking about IC's vs MK, what people don't seem to realize is that they are seeing things WAY too biased from the IC side. "1 mistake dawg and it's GOOD GAME STOCK!" This is assuming so many things about the matchup, and assuming before knowing is bad.

You assume that the MK players makes the mistake, and then the IC player punishes him perfectly himself without making a mistake. If you want to play Super Theory Brothers, you could say that when MK makes a mistake, the IC player could make a mistake, which the MK player would try to punish but with another mistake, that the IC player could have punished but he again makes a mistake, etc.

Either character can get ***** from a tiny mistake. The question then becomes what character is better at avoiding making those mistakes, with the tools they are given. I think the answer is MK. You can debate either side if you want, I'm not interested in such a thing, but seriously people analyze that matchup from such biased angles that you get anything from 6:4 MK to 6:4 IC's, even when it's clear only 1 of those ratios is correct lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The other question is that in the event that Metaknight DOES make an error. What can the Ice Clmber do to punish it?
more often than not, it isn't with the CG because they need to be in range (which is among the worst if not THE worst).

Metaknights tools are enough in that when he does make a mistake, the punishment that befalls him isn very bad.

 

[etecoon]

Probably not, but I'm not going to outright say no. I haven't seen any MK with good banana control either.

dojo is pretty good with them from what I've seen, but MK as a character is mediocre at dealing with items, an MK player can definitely improve the MU by learning to use items better, but it's not going to break the MU to be worse than 45:55 IMO, diddy is built to work with items and he controls where they spawn




and maybe just my perspective but I've found MK vs IC's to be a pretty easy matchup, even back when I split time between MK and snake pretty evenly I actually did better with MK and snake is supposed to hard counter them(not so IMO). I don't consider IC's to be one of MK's worst matchups really

 

[ADHD]

Most Diddy players think is is even or in MKs favor (tie in poll), most MKs think it is a tie matchup, slightly more think it is in MK's favor than Diddy's. All the high-ranking players with the exception of Mew2King think it is even or in MKs favor.




ADHD, you are to Diddy what Ally is to Snake. MKs dominance has grown and has continued to grow. You know why it's so weird that the top tier characters all seem to have closer matchups with MK?

To put this in perspective:

-virtually every character in the game has a hard counter that requires a ridiculous amount of preperation and style change to even compete with. Characters lower on the tier list like Luigi, ROB, Peach and the like, and characters higher on the tier list like Falco, ICs, and D3, can all hard counter someone or be hard countered.

-Every other character has "close matchups" pretty much throughout top tier to mid tier. Random characters just seem to go even with characters even though they're much lower on the tier list

-Metaknight is far and away the most common character at all levels of play, and has more wins, top 2s, top 3s, top 5s, top 8s, and top 32s than anyone else in the game. Hell, most of the characters combined can't touch his statistics.



So if you haven't figured it out, Metaknight made the tier list. Despite the fact that all these other top tier characters have bad matchups, the characters that beat them don't show up in tournament anymore. They get taken out pretty early by MK, so you get the closer matchups at the top of the tier list.




Also, I did surprisingly well against Mew2King with Diddy yesterday in both doubles and singles.








I don't play Diddy.

Diddy kong is really ****ing beastly, metaknight had no influence on his soon-to-be third position on the tier list.

 

[Pierce7d]

You mean second, right? Wyatt, come over and play tomorrow!!! I have an inexplicable urge to **** your Peach some more.

Also, I have mostly withdrawn from this thread. Too many trolls.

Lastly, people are forgetting that ICs have some pretty bad MUs like Snake, ROB, I hear Lucas, etc. MK does not suffer this way.

In all other examples, the best character generally did not have a positive MU with over 30 other characters in their game, and those characters having very diverse playstyles.

Melee Fox is NOT better than MK in practice. He dies because he gets gimped. He has a very, clear, exploitable weakness, despite his amazing strengths. Jiggs is stupidly light. Falco is like Fox, Marth doesn't have the same level of blitzing pressure and safety, and has a decent, but linear recovery, and no amazing reliable kill moves on characters he can't CG.

MK doesn't rely on CG, because he has combos, in a game with no combos, and pressure, in a game with no shield stun. His has range, and transcendant priority, and when he needs REAL priority, he turns into a tornado, which M2k consistantly shield stabs my Falco's full shield with. It's the best tech chase in the game, in a game with tripping, and pops you into the air, which lets you use to to juggle over and over, and is combined with his Uair, which hits on two and ends on 13.

He also can fly, in a game where the objective is ring out. I'd like to point out that Jiggs in Melee can also virtually fly, and she took top two in Melee.

Also, he can FLY! Did I mention he can FLY. Flying is broken as ****. Give any single character in the game TWO more jumps and watch them never reach below B tier in this game. Even GANONDORF WOULD BE B TIER WITH 4 JUMPS, NO LIE.

 

[etecoon]

lucas sounds very puzzling, is ROB really that bad? I've heard better IC players say that their biggest problems are really just MK and snake, and as I said, I wouldn't be surprised if MK is actually worse for them than snake

 

[Black Marf]

MK does not suffer this way.

Of course not. MK's only suffering comes from being loathed by the community.

Poor guy.

 

[Pierce7d]

You mean second, right? Wyatt, come over and play tomorrow!!! I have an inexplicable urge to **** your Peach some more.

Also, I have mostly withdrawn from this thread. Too many trolls.

Lastly, people are forgetting that ICs have some pretty bad MUs like Snake, ROB, I hear Lucas, etc. MK does not suffer this way.

In all other examples, the best character generally did not have a positive MU with over 30 other characters in their game, and those characters having very diverse playstyles.

Melee Fox is NOT better than MK in practice. He dies because he gets gimped. He has a very, clear, exploitable weakness, despite his amazing strengths. Jiggs is stupidly light. Falco is like Fox, Marth doesn't have the same level of blitzing pressure and safety, and has a decent, but linear recovery, and no amazing reliable kill moves on characters he can't CG.

MK doesn't rely on CG, because he has combos, in a game with no combos, and pressure, in a game with no shield stun. His has range, and transcendant priority, and when he needs REAL priority, he turns into a tornado, which M2k consistantly shield stabs my Falco's full shield with. It's the best tech chase in the game, in a game with tripping, and pops you into the air, which lets you use to to juggle over and over, and is combined with his Uair, which hits on two and ends on 13.

He also can fly, in a game where the objective is ring out. I'd like to point out that Jiggs in Melee can also virtually fly, and she took top two in Melee.

Also, he can FLY! Did I mention he can FLY. Flying is broken as ****. Give any single character in the game TWO more jumps and watch them never reach below B tier in this game. Even GANONDORF WOULD BE B TIER WITH 4 JUMPS, NO LIE.

Quoted for edit

EDIT: Maybe not Ganon, but DEFINITELY EVERY OTHER CHARACTER, INCLUDING FALCON AND LINK.

 

[BRnaT]

Well you are pretty solid against MK, it's true. You should try fighting against Eternal Conflict. Maybe your opinion will change after that.

 

[etecoon]

if ganon had 5 jumps and some good horizontal mobility he'd actually be pretty ****ing scary, his aerials are actually decent/good sometimes, he's just like, ******** awful on the ground and he can't really stay in the air either

 

[Kuraudo]

Nothing much else I can say or contribute to either side.

Except just ban MK.

Until then, I'll keep fighting them.

 

[Lionman]

Well you are pretty solid against MK, it's true. You should try fighting against Eternal Conflict. Maybe your opinion will change after that.

Eternal Conflict ***** everything

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I'm pretty sure no one's really disputing the MK ban anymore, so this thread is just

 

[solecalibur]

I'm pretty sure no one's really disputing the MK ban anymore, so this thread is just

like all long threads were gonna go off topic for 2 -3 pages every so often then get back on subject

 

[Requiem]

Is this bull**** seriously still going on?

 

[Overswarm]

Diddy kong is really ****ing beastly, metaknight had no influence on his soon-to-be third position on the tier list.

No, ADHD is beastly. Diddy's dominance has come about due to him having one of the best matchups in the game vs. MK. Diddy doesn't have many bad matchups coming to him in bracket because they don't make it there. If MK were banned, you'd have a much harder time I'd imagine.... hell, you're the only Diddy really going crazy right now. The others are just "good Diddy mains", and "others" is a small number.

Is this bull**** seriously still going on?

Never stopped, actually.

 

[Kuraudo]

Is this bull**** seriously still going on?

It'll never stop until either

A.) Meta Knight gets banned/soft-banned
B.) The SBR puts their foot down on this kinda thing
C.) Brawl kicks the bucket and becomes as small as Smash 64 is.

The correct answer here, is A.)

Spoiler

inb4imo

 

[Eddie G]

Well said, Pierce. It can't be put any more clear cut than that. Of course, those who still don't want to believe it will just scoff it off and continue to read from their predetermined checklist of ban criteria.

 

[swordgard]

Lastly, people are forgetting that ICs have some pretty bad MUs like Snake, ROB, I hear Lucas, etc. MK does not suffer this way.

Ics only have even or better matchups : )

 

[etecoon]

It'll never stop until either

A.) Meta Knight gets banned/soft-banned
B.) The SBR puts their foot down on this kinda thing
C.) Brawl kicks the bucket and becomes as small as Smash 64 is.

The correct answer here, is A.)

Spoiler

inb4imo

a soft ban can't work in the US, we care not for honor, only money : )

debate over MK will never end btw, he almost definitely won't be banned, and if he did get banned, people would argue over that too. people like to argue.

 

[Kuraudo]

This world doesn't belong to the dreamers, I guess. Oh well, I said I'd cope regardless, and win. And that's what I plan on doing.