why is the timer 8 minutes?

[Varist]

A specialized ruleset maybe

4 minutes (the fast tier)

v ANY except
v ANY except
v ANY except
v ANY except

5 minutes
v ANY except (or just the fast tier)
v ANY except (or just the fast tier)
v ANY except (the fast tier)

6 minutes
v -- -- -- -- -- -- (the fast tier)

etc. It could be made like the big square matchup chart is.

The first reaction to a list like this is "no one's going to ****ing memorize this this is too complicated" but when you main a character like, say, marth, you only have to know your own ****. It's like being expected to know IC's glitches so you don't "accidentally" use them in tournament.

So if I go to a tournament as marth all I have to know is "My matches against all characters are going to be 6 minutes, except when I have to play the spacies, falcon and pika. Then it's 5."

Character mains will have to remember anywhere from 1 to 8 exceptions but it would be second nature after a month or two. smashers already have a gargantuan archive of knowledge they keep up with. there better be room for more in there

hopefully the timer matchup chart would only come into effect in the top 8 or whatever

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

unfortunately varist, your list blows a lot

 

[Varist]

unfortunately shut the **** up i don't play every matchup in the game

 

[Bones0]

Can anyone give a reason why having more time than necessary on the clock is a bad thing?

 

[Varist]

because then the clock is meaningless, until you get two players who want to win no matter what and camp like ******s, and then you just watched a gay match for 8 minutes instead of 5 or 6 or 7. and there was no hype until after the first 7 minutes, instead of (with a shaved clock), the first 4 minutes.

 

[Shadic]

If you want shorter matches, lower the stock count. Then you can lower the clock as well.

I'd rather have 2% of matches go to 8-minute time rather than 20-40% of matches go to 6 minute time.

 

[Froggy]

because then the clock is meaningless, until you get two players who want to win no matter what and camp like ******s, and then you just watched a gay match for 8 minutes instead of 5 or 6 or 7. and there was no hype until after the first 7 minutes, instead of (with a shaved clock), the first 4 minutes.

What you're describing is relevant for less than 1% of matches. And therefore it is an irrelevant point. We'll lose more than we gain by reducing the timer. There is no need for floaty matchups to go to time when they could have ended properly with the current timer.

 

[RFrizzle]

If timing out becomes legitimately viable. I quit. I dont wanna catch ******.

 

[Youngling]

Dont fix something that isn't broken.

/thread

 

[EPsilon933]

What's really broken is the middle of the top edge of the screen. I hate having stuff clog up my screen. Let's get rid of the timer

 

[Mahie]

You can't play on Yoshi's without a timer.

 

[EPsilon933]

No johns, learn to count in your head

 

[PB&J]

You can't play on Yoshi's without a timer.

you can just look at the elephant(or whatever animal that is) in the back to see when the cloud is coming.

Back to the lowering the time:

I say people try it out @ some local tournies and see what happens

 

[LLDL]

It is not difficulty to body another spacie on dreamland in about a minute or two. It doesn't have to be long and dragged out.

 

[Bones0]

because then the clock is meaningless, until you get two players who want to win no matter what and camp like ******s, and then you just watched a gay match for 8 minutes instead of 5 or 6 or 7. and there was no hype until after the first 7 minutes, instead of (with a shaved clock), the first 4 minutes.

Why does the clock have to mean something? It would mean even more if we just switched to Time matches and got rid of stocks. That's essentially what it does anyway. As far as having to watch more camping, you could, idk, NOT WATCH THE VIDEO? derp

 

[DerfMidWest]

This should not be about the entertainment factor.

There is absolutely no reason to change the timer.
As it is, it prevents matches from being too long (this is for TOs), while allowing enough time for the majority of MUs to be played.
It shouldn't be a threatening thing in most matches.

 

[RFrizzle]

Bones, I'm gonna be really disappointed if I ever meet you and you're not doctor house.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Nah he looks like a mini Dr.PP.

 

[Bones0]

Bones, I'm gonna be really disappointed if I ever meet you and you're not doctor house.

I'm heavily considering getting a cheap cane and white doctor coat for tournaments.

Nah he looks like a mini Dr.PP.

Mini? I think I am taller, actually. Maybe that's just my ego. lol >.>

So yeah, get it straight. Dr. PP is a mini Bones (who is a mini Dr. House [who is just Hugh Laurie in disguise {or is he? (probably)})]).

 

[DerfMidWest]

Mini as in you still PPjr.

 

[ShroudedOne]

you can just look at the elephant(or whatever animal that is) in the back to see when the cloud is coming.

No, you can't. The elephant is off-sync from the cloud. So it could be at the same point at two different instances of the match, and Randall would be in two different places.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Different matchups have different timers

Also let's make it so every matchup has its own special stage list just for it so we can make every matchup fair and balanced coverage. And let's make every character with infinites have a different percent they can go to before it's called stalling. So Fox can only wallshine to 120, and Ice Climbers can only handoff to 80, and Sheik can't CG after 110. Also everyone has to die if their shield breaks to make it fair for Jigglypuff. But not on the last stock. If you break your shield on the last stock you have to play a 2 minute coin match to decide the winner.

Let's make our ruleset as ******** as we can.

In 3d fighters like VF5, Tekken and Soul Calibur, the timer is about 50~60 seconds, since, well, the damage is high and you have no way to run away.

8waywalkslowly

 

[FireBall Stars]

I think that a simple thing can solve the thread's problem.

Test it.

Friendlies, small tournies, whatever.

It's far easier to discuss on the viability of a rule with true practical proof than just discuss over theory.
...As the communities on competitive gaming really like to do.

Just saying "no" to a possible change is being conservative, and proposing a change without actual data (like videos and results with the proposed rule active) isn't much effective to overcome the natural "don't change it" nature of people.

 

[Bones0]

There's no reason to test it. There are no positive influences lowering the timer could possibly have (except making matches less boring, which is a HORRIBLE reason and completely subjective anyway). All testing will do is let people go "Wow, it didn't affect the match at all. We should go ahead and lower it!"

 

[/Jwnz\]

tl:dr every single post, but I read a majority of them.

Anyways, just a suggestion, but why not Make the timer of the first match unlimited; have no timer.
Then have the loser "counter pick" a timer setting, within a reasonable scope of course.

Another suggestion; Have the timer set at 4min for round 1 then increase as people are eliminated; capping at a time set by the tournament host?

 

[EPsilon933]

That sounds so complicated

 

[DarkMarth]

There seems to be disagreement about the purpose of a timer.

If the only thing a timer is meant to do is prevent matches from being ridiculously long, than the 8 min. timer is doing it's job.

If the timer is supposed to create a sense of urgency, encourage approaching or a affect gameplay in any meaningful way, than 8 min. is too much and should be cut down to 5 or 6 min.

I agree with people who are saying the best thing to do is test out a lower timer in a few local tournamets to see if it has a positive effect on gameplay.

 

[NalsXR]

Wrong thread

 

[iRobinhoood]

Eight minutes because it's always been eight minutes. The legendary eight.

 

[Hax]

6 minutes is the best length because it's the smallest amount of time that doesn't force any reckless decisions/still lets 99% of matches play out. i've yet to hear actual reasons why more than 6 minutes are needed. "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" isn't an argument; 8 minutes isn't that broke, 6 is just better.

this whole timer thing isn't that big of a deal. for me, it really only comes into play in matchups where i feel that approaching is never, ever the right idea when i have a lead. for example, vs samus. i believe that when you have a lead vs samus as falcon, the optimal way to play is to run around the map and safely poke at her like a ******. samus is SEVERELY hindered when you're not the one approaching her. another example is me vs m2k's sheik. when i play m2k's sheik, whoever approaches gets ***** and both of us know that. unfortunately, m2k will ledgecamp and refuse to approach in general even when i have a lead. what usually ends up happening is i refuse to not approach for 8 whole minutes, so i approach and get grabbed and lose my stock. its times like these that i wish the timer was shorter and actually made sense for a game of melee. this whole "get bored and end up making suboptimal decisions" issue really only exists when the timer is too long. there must be an incentive for the losing player to approach to eliminate this gimmick. i don't believe anyone who tells me that they feel one with an 8 minute timer

shaving 6-10 minutes off an armada vs hbox set doesn't hurt either

 

[Bones0]

M2K only camps you because he knows you're just going to be impatient and approach... If you never approached, he would realize that trying to ledge stall is pointless.

I think you're also wrong about 6 minutes not forcing reckless behavior. Simply because the clock is at 6 instead of 8 will make players abuse character speed so much more. A Fox isn't going to try to time out a Peach if he has to last 8 minutes, but lasting 6 minutes is significantly easier, so he'll camp harder. If he gets even a 1-stock lead, the Peach has so much less time to try to cut off his options and predict his movement to land a successful hit, so she has to make more desperate attempts to hit him.

The only benefit of lowering the clock that you've presented only applies to matches where neither player wants to approach or even close space. The only effect lowering the timer even has on these matches is that it essentially fast forwards through the time that the losing player can afford to waste.

That's such a small improvement when the side effects include forcing many more timeouts in slower matchups and riskier play in general. It's completely unbalancing the entire neutral game for the sole purpose of ensuring that you will never have to wait more than a few seconds for the loser to throw himself at you.

 

[S l o X]

6 minute standard, go.

 

[Hax]

i don't think you understand how it is vs M2K. sometimes, with the lead, i'll wait for an entire minute for him to stop sheikstalling on the ledge. i respect M2K's play to win mentality, but not when he's employing his "bore them till they play like ****" strategy. that **** shouldn't even exist; it's a gimmick of a strategy that doesn't test the ingame skills a tournament match should be testing (i hope to god you don't respond saying "it tests patience"), and it's the result of an obscenely long timer.

your example of fox not wanting to camp out peach on an 8 minute clock = case in point. first of all, it's incorrect to say that fox camping is any more effective with ____ amount of time than it is with ____ amount of time; fox camping peach does not become any more or less effective unless the characters themselves are changed. the ONLY reason fox is less likely to time peach out with 8 minutes is because a longer timer softens the blow of the first ~5 seconds of a game, the seconds in which fox has absolute advantage over peach because she literally cannot come in contact with him while he lands a few free lasers (for example, on a 1 minute timer, these few lasers may actually decide the match. once the timer is set to a couple of minutes, however, the chance that these first few lasers decide the match is minuscule). but that's not what you were saying, nor is that a concern for either of our proposed timer lengths; you said that a strategy became better as a result of changing the timer. without changing actual gameplay mechanics, this cannot happen. such a misconception is likely the result of too much THEORY and not enough EXPERIENCE.

so, why then, are you right in saying that foxes are less likely to lasercamp peach (arguably the optimal way to play the matchup) on an 8 minute clock? the answer is literally: it's too boring. people would rather play suboptimally and have a decent time playing the game than play like complete ***s for 8 minutes, even if it means earning the W. i'm glad you could present yet another example of suboptimal play as a result of a ****ing stupidly long timer

what will happen if 6 minutes is enforced are matchups being played as they should. this won't affect all matchups, only some. namely ones that involve camping. this whole time, if your character has had a weakness to being camped out (Peach, Samus, Jiggs), you've been artificially awarded by the extremely long timer; no one is gay enough to camp you for 8 minutes anyway.

if this means buffing fox (or gay play in general), so be it. i'm all for melee matchups being played as they were meant to be

 

[Divinokage]

Hax, you know what? I think 6 mins would be great though for me I would be willing to give 7 mins at most in some cases. I say 7 minutes because there are matchups that are drawn out, there's simply no escaping that. My reason for 6 mins being enough now is because the metagame is definitely fast enough to end matches in less than 3 mins now. The average skill level is MUCH greater than it was before so I mean even in R1 pools, people knew what they were doing.

For example when I play a top Peach or a top Samus with Ganon, my matches have to last at least 5 mins on average because those matchups, it's pretty much impossible to keep attacking. It's a matchup that tests patience and precision and also having the right calls in between each attack (which can take a long time before someone commits) You just can't challenge their moves that well.

 

[Wake]

People would rather play suboptimally and have fun, it's true. There isn't enough money in this game for people to care enough to play like they "should," despite how boring it might be.

 

[EPsilon933]

People would rather play suboptimally and have fun, it's true. There isn't enough money in this game for people to care enough to play like they "should," despite how boring it might be.

I don't know... Put like $1000 on the line (ARmada vs Hungrybox)

 

[Divinokage]

People would rather play suboptimally and have fun, it's true. There isn't enough money in this game for people to care enough to play like they "should," despite how boring it might be.

It's pretty much impossible to play like you should unless you are insanely skilled at the game. You pretty much have to be better than your opponent in order to camp effectively, imo. Take my word for it if you want, the players these days shut down SOO many options at once.

 

[Wake]

I don't know... Put like $1000 on the line (ARmada vs Hungrybox)

Yeah that is one of the examples I can think of though lol.

And I know what you mean Kage, but I think a lot of people just don't even try to play like that simply because it's thought of as boring to a lot of people. Kels is someone who is willing to play really "lame" though haha. I honestly enjoyed watching the finals of Apex though.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

I don't know... Put like $1000 on the line (ARmada vs Hungrybox)

Okay, well then they can play with a 6 minute timer lol

 

[Kink-Link5]

Hax, you're aware that if a player has a stock or life deficit and refuses to approach, they are the one that is considered to be stalling, and you can call them out on it legally, right? No one has ever tried to push the rule because of the whole honour thing and they don't want to look like a ****, but that doesn't stop the stalling player from doing it in the first place.

This is not to be confused with slow battles overall, however.

Spacing bairs around the whole stage safely is still, believe it or not, trying to get in on and hit your opponent, and is not forcing your opponent to approach you through passive means.