Why is Onett banned ?

[xDD-Master]

I'm wondering why Onett is banned.

The Car does 30% and has set knockback which is very low (It will never kill you).

DDD may can CG you here but it's interupted at least after ~50% because of the car (Unless he is CGing you at the plattform of the left house which you can avoid).

On other stages DDD can CG you even higher for example on pkmn 1 and he can instant kill you on Castle Sieges 2nd transformation.

So I dont understand why Onett isnt a counterpick stage.

Is it the stalling part when you always stay near the house to tech everything ?
Or if you stay outside the stage to wait for the oppenant to grab and kill him ??
Or what is it that makes the stage banned ???


I like about the Stage that you cant get spiked on that Stage... good Ness or Olimar CP against Falcos etc.

 

[n88]

I thought it was banned because it's as annoying as **** to play on.

I also thought it was banned because of the boundary size, but I could be wrong.

 

[Lythium]

I think it's because it's a walk-off. However, I'm sure Ampharos will show up and put us all in our proper place in no time.

 

[Super_ness]

It's probably the cars. After all, 30% is a decent amount. At least enough to decide a match. Like, an attack might not kill you at 60%, but the same attack at 90% could easily kill.

Stinks though. Onnet's one of my favorite stages.

 

[Super_ness]

Please. How do I delete this?!

 

[DarkAura]

double post.. might wanna fix that.

and i agree with super ness it's probably the cars and maybe the tight boundary that makes it banned

 

[Noobicidal]

 

[Commander_Beef]

Onett is banned because the walls are literally always there, unlike in stages were walls are removed by transformations. That's the difference. Onett also disrupts a lot of natural competitve play that can be played on other necessary counterpicks, and disrupts combos. By this I mean the houses...
The car isn't the only reason why it's banned but its another factor that adds up to the stage's cheap advantages.
The walkoffs also play a big role in making the stage cheap... why do you think Bridge of Eldin is banned? It's really easy to kill there...
The fact concerning King Dedede's infinite can be disrupted by the car but seriously...like I said before, the walls are always there, so he has all the opportunities in the world to get much more damage on them. There's an alert before the car comes anyways, and if King Dedede is infiniting on the outsides of the houses, he can just simply back throw to kill them off the walkoff.
Other infinites including down tilt infinites by Marth, G&W, etc. will also be extremely cheap, because they have more opportunities to do it also...
Players can also camp much more effectively than on Corneria behind the houses too, and can just simply jump or shield when a car comes.
So you can see the many reasons why Onett is always banned.

 

[Gaudeo]

I agree with Commander Beef that Onett is banned because of the walls, however I think the stage is designed to mitigate the other factors that he brought up.
As noted, the cars do an exceptionally large amount of damage, however there is a significant warning period before a car appears and, as Commander Beef mentions, the cars can be avoided by either shielding or jumping away. Furthermore, as has already been conceded, the cars cannot kill. On those grounds, the cars would not warrant a ban on their own.
Though the stage is a walk off, the length of both walk off edges is so short that it hardly constitutes a major problem. Two characters hardly fit together in the walk off sections, and at such a close range, right up against the boundary the issue of chaining for a KO becomes negligible since at that distance nearly anything will kill. The walk off sections of the stage do not grant an advantage to any character in particular like they do on other stages with longer sections. Additionally, there is ample room on the center of the stage for a player to avoid a chain grab, which is the justification for Castle Siege being legal, despite its second stage. Overall it also doesn't seem like a ban worthy issue.
Thirdly, the cover provided by the house on the right does grant some advantage to a camper, but the multi-level structure of the rest of the stage and the lack of any straight approach to that location make it far from a sure tactic. An opponent has no fear from most projectiles when standing on the ground in front of the store and the line above the house means that there are many ways to approach the campers' position. Also the cars may be avoidable by the camper, but still ensure openings for anyone trying to thwart them.
It seems to me that the stage skews towards play on the middle and on the rooftops, which leaves the boundaries reasonably far away, but I understand why some people would consider this a problem.
However the issue of wall infinites does create a problem for the stage. While the cars do force an end to them, their frequency is not high enough to discourage their use. This is probably the reason that Onett remains banned, and I imagine will be for the foreseeable future.

 

[professor mgw]

It's just to....
How can i put this....
(someone insert a word)

 

[NintenJoe]

wall infinites, walk off sides

/topic

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Onett really isn't that bad; it's a fair stage. People generally dislike it though (games on it are pretty slow), and the walls and walk-offs do lead to some abuse (King Dedede vs someone he can cg is really not very fun, though winnable). Camping the extreme sides of the map is a poor tactic IMO, but apparently certain players in certain matchups have trouble with it (the only way to really punish in some matchups is to attack in unison with a car, not easy for some people). It's actually near the top of my list of stages that "should be legal but no one will ever agree to" (next to Rumble Falls and Big Blue).

In short, everything said in the OP is correct, but the average player (and average policy maker) doesn't find it compelling in light of assorted issues. It's kinda a shame, but what can you do? FYI, Onett has long been a stage I'm pretty fond of as well (though why the Fourside music from melee isn't on it is hard for me to understand).

 

[xDD-Master]

For Example if you are Snake and you're fighting a DDD who is camping at the side of the map you can just spam nades. The characters that have problems with that camping are the ones without a projectile or bad projectile for this (e.g. Falco), but then you will maybe change the character. And so are Match-Ups on other stages. Everyone saw camping MKs on Delfino or camping DDDs on pkmn 1 transformations. I know the problem is that Onett isnt changing and that the cars are easy avoided. But I am really interested if it would be chosenl in some tournaments and how it would end. Because I dont think it's a very unfair Stage. I play it really often because I like the stage and the fights or always really cool there and acceptable. Maybe we just dont abuse the adventage which is given to us by the walk-offs. I will re-play it in future and try to play more gay just to see if it's really that gay ;P

 

[Commander_Beef]

(though why the Fourside music from melee isn't on it is hard for me to understand).

^^^What he said. That music is great.

Stage banning debate = pwned.
lol

 

[Mr. Rogu]

its because you cant spike there.

jk.

its probably cause of the cars and that there is walk off ledges.

 

[BluePeachy100]

People forgot to look both ways, and the car came.

 

[Commander_Beef]

its because you cant spike there.

jk.

its probably cause of the cars and that there is walk off ledges.

Dude you should read the comments before you comment, the reasons were pretty much already explained.

People forgot to look both ways, and the car came.

Uhh...okay?

 

[orange/xd]

Walls, walk-off, cars.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Another thing with the walls. It's sort of a like Spear Pillar's underside. One can basically live forever on that stage in theory. If one plays in the bottom of the stage they have the advantage of being able to live longer. Any knockback can be DIed into the walls to either reduce knockback or elimnate it altogether by teching. This makes any KOs difficult because some characters abilities to kill would be hammpered a bit. Horizontal Knockback on finishers would be the easiest to avoid dying from by simply DIing low. That pretty much leaves all KOs to be made by vertical KOs or else suffer trying to kill the person at high percents with horizontal KO moves.

 

[TheEgo]

People forgot to look both ways, and the car came.

Funny ,just had to quote it!

 

[AranOcean]

It's the walk off ledges and the cars. In a way, it's like Bridge of Eldin, without the houses.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Play as Ness.
Turn your swag on.
Grab them onna house.
Pummelpummelpummel F-throwwwwwwwwww.

 

[Kwyjibo]

It's actually near the top of my list of stages that "should be legal but no one will ever agree to" (next to Rumble Falls and Big Blue).

Actually, I agree that Big Blue should be allowed, but I think Onett and Rumble Falls shouldn't be.

Onett - Personally, I think it's too small to really be playable in a tournament. Also, I agree with a ban on any stage that permanently has 2 walk-off KOs. I know, the houses really keep those KO's from happening, but a well place aerial on either side is enough to KO at low percentages.

Rumble Falls: This is not Rainbow Cruise-style scrolling. On RC, the scrolling is always at the same speed, except for the end where all you have to do is fast fall. On Rainbow Cruise, there are one-hit KO hazards, and characters with bad jumps have to focus more on the scrolling than the opponent. That's having to fight the stage more than your opponent and has always been banworthy. As much as I love the Bramble music... this stage is not worthy of tournaments.

 

[Morningstar]

Then why is Castle Siege not banned?

 

[professor mgw]

PLEASE, LOOK AT THIS STAGE!

 

[Ice man]

The stage does not have any edges at all. Not to mention the cars.

 

[:mad:]

Then why is Castle Siege not banned?

Because only the 2nd transformation has walkoffs. It's a counterpick for a reason, it gives the Dedede player an opportunity to take the set back. It it was like the Bridge of Eldin, where it's always a walkoff, it'd be banned. But it's not.

Just camp and stay off the ground in the 2nd transformation.

@Ice man - That's not true. There's an edge on the left side of the red house.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Onett isn't small; what are you talking about? Onett is a fairly large stage and if allowed would be in the top 5 for big stages (though it is of course dwarfed by Jungle Japes, like everything else even close to legal). The cars really save the stage more than anything since strategic play that remembers them avoids death to certain chaingrabs that only affect a very small number of the total matchups in the game anyway.

This thread isn't about Rumble Falls, but you'd have to be braindead to die to the hazards, and the scrolling is seriously not a problem even for the slowest characters. There is no "fighting the stage", not that that concept even makes sense (note that none of the stages, including obviously banned ones, are independently dangerous).

 

[nicekid76]

Onett is banned cuz it bothers some ppl then many other lvl should be too

 

[:mad:]

Onett is banned cuz it bothers some ppl then many other lvl should be too

I'm trying very hard to understand what you're saying, but failing miserably.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Honestly, I don't see anything Interesting in Onett. Man, Onett can be a good Stage to For Fun... But c'mon... Onett isn't a Great Stage.
You can't Spike someone in this Stage and can't perform something Interesting.


SSBB could have more Objective Stages...

 

[Kamikaze*]

Because it is a very stupid stage. Just like 90% of the stages in brawl.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

Because it is a very stupid stage. Just like 90% of the stages in brawl.

That's the Truth man...

I don't know Why SSBB don't have more Objective Stages like the Tournaments Avaliable Stages.

 

[Iceberg Toy]

Why is Onett banned?

It's an incredibly small stage that has walk-off and some walls that while low, are still manipulative due to the small amount of space between them. It allows for some avoidable yet incredibly irritating (and arguably, cheap) camping which would normally not be a problem if it weren't for the constricted horizontal boundaries and low ceiling. The car is actually not the problem at all. If anything, it prevents people from relying on walk-off kills and infinites to win the game. There are just too many additional problems to ignore when considering Onett for counterpick.

 

[Kwyjibo]

The cars really save the stage more than anything since strategic play that remembers them avoids death to certain chaingrabs that only affect a very small number of the total matchups in the game anyway.

So, the stage is saved BY its hazards? That's a very interesting point to make AA. On the one hand, it helps Onett being a counterpick because it completely adds to needing to adjust your strategy and play style, which I personally think makes a stage a great counterpick (for example, I think Sky world should be a counterpick BECAUSE of the fact that you can be spiked through the clouds. It necessitates switching off your aerial and ground games). However, saying that a stage is saved by its hazards can also be taken to mean that if this stage was played in a paused state, it would be unplayable. Personally, I think that if a stage can be unplayable for those 30 seconds or so between the cars, which can be a LOT of time to rack up damage and completely turn the tide of the match, it means that the stage should be banned. There are a few stages which are banned that I think shouldn't be; Onett is not one of those stages (and as an Earthbound fan, it hurts me to have to say that).

 

[:mad:]

It's an incredibly small stage that has walk-off and some walls that while low, are still manipulative due to the small amount of space between them. It allows for some avoidable yet incredibly irritating (and arguably, cheap) camping which would normally not be a problem if it weren't for the constricted horizontal boundaries and low ceiling. The car is actually not the problem at all. If anything, it prevents people from relying on walk-off kills and infinites to win the game. There are just too many additional problems to ignore when considering Onett for counterpick.

AA made a great post on the last page that disproves this argument.

 

[Commander_Beef]

I will say this again to the second thread on the discussion for the banning of this stage.

Onett is banned because the walls are literally always there, unlike in stages were walls are removed by transformations. That's the difference. Onett also disrupts a lot of natural competitve play that can be played on other necessary counterpicks, and disrupts combos. By this I mean the houses...
The car isn't the only reason why it's banned but its another factor that adds up to the stage's cheap advantages.
The walkoffs also play a big role in making the stage cheap... why do you think Bridge of Eldin is banned? It's really easy to kill there...
The fact concerning King Dedede's infinite can be disrupted by the car but seriously...like I said before, the walls are always there, so he has all the opportunities in the world to get much more damage on them. There's an alert before the car comes anyways, and if King Dedede is infiniting on the outsides of the houses, he can just simply back throw to kill them off the walkoff.
Other infinites including down tilt infinites by Marth, G&W, etc. will also be extremely cheap, because they have more opportunities to do it also...
Players can also camp much more effectively than on Corneria behind the houses too, and can just simply jump or shield when a car comes.
So you can see the many reasons why Onett is always banned.

 

[superyoshi888]

With the boundries so close to the stage, it doesn't really matter if its a walkoff or not. One good back throw should do the trick.

 

[illinialex24]

If you even have to ask this question, you have issues.

Walkoff stage, tiny size. Closed in. Car hazards. Lower ceiling. Tiny side blastzones. This is an easy choice.

 

[demonictoonlink]

If you even have to ask this question, you have issues.

Walkoff stage, tiny size. Closed in. Car hazards. Lower ceiling. Tiny side blastzones. This is an easy choice.

Everything Alex said FTW