Why do smashers dislike BRAWL+?

[Salocin Katze]

Why do smashers dislike BRAWL+?

I just wanted to have this question answered with something other that, "It's gay", "It's stupid", or "lolz newb." Any time this question is posted for discussion it seems as though nothing is ever answered and good reasons are never posted.

Hopefully we can discuss this with less flaming and more reasoning.

I personally enjoy all 3 originals (SSB, SSBM, SSBB) and Brawl+.

Discuss.



I know my post count is...small but I've always been reading and just never felt like I could really contribute anything to the threads. I've decided to become a more active member and we all have to start somewhere.

 

[JOE!]

It is (i suspect) mainly due to it being a hack of brawl, and not a professionally develpoed game.

As such, people are wary that it may be secretly focused on 1 or 2 characters over others (creator bias), that it may mess up their wii (haxx), or that it isnt trustworthy as anybody can mod their version of Brawl+

 

[Rikana]

inb4lock.

Some people are used to Brawl and aren't willing to change.
Some people don't like the idea of hacking involved.
Some people don't want to "hack" their wii.
Some people don't have the materials to "hack" their wii.
Some people people don't like Brawl at all.

/endthread.

Brawl+ is too good.

 

[16BitAlex]

I know my post count is...small but I've always been reading and just never felt like I could really contribute anything to the threads. I've decided to become a more active member and we all have to start somewhere.

I've been a member for about as long too, not posting much because I'm not a pro player.

I'm going to give Brawl+ a shot next weekend.

 

[Llumys]

Phyzazetwodapizzawm.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

By hacking the game, we might as well call it a M.U.G.E.N. game.

There is serious character bias with some of the changes, many of which are obviously favoring fan favorites, Captain Falcon instantly comes to mind.

Balanced Brawl is the only one of the hack games I can respect with a competitive mindset. They aren't trying to mess with the tier list, only fix design flaws in which people hate with Brawl.

For my final note, Brawl- is hilariously funny.

 

[JOE!]

BBrawl and Brawl- are where it's at IMO.

BBrawl may be a tad less attractive as the things that made vBrawl top tiers good are sort-of gone (gay tactics, overpowered moves) but in that light alot of low tiers are downright awesome now (Mario and Samus are top-tier threats, and link is scary as hell)

Brawl- I'm going to keep an eye on, as I think they may be onto something (in a hilarious way to boot!)

"Once everyone's super...no one will be" to quote Syndrome from the incredibles

 

[Rikana]

By hacking the game, we might as well call it a M.U.G.E.N. game.

There is serious character bias with some of the changes, many of which are obviously favoring fan favorites, Captain Falcon instantly comes to mind.

Balanced Brawl is the only one of the hack games I can respect with a competitive mindset. They aren't trying to mess with the tier list, only fix design flaws in which people hate with Brawl.

For my final note, Brawl- is hilariously funny.

Everything is going to contain bias. Brawl+ has bias from the entire community that plays it. That's how we made the project better because we provide feedback and then the characters are altered. Balanced Brawl's going to have some bias in it. Any type of alteration is going to include a bit of bias. The moment Brawl was made, bias was involved.

We just play off the game creator's bias and that allows us to think that its standard.

Again, inb4lock.

 

[n88]

@Red Ryu

I understand the viewpoint in regards to bias, but singling out Falcon seems strange. He's relatvely bad in B+.

Anywho, main reason anyone wouldn't like B+: They haven't tried it.

 

[bobson]

Some people are used to Brawl and aren't willing to change.
Some people don't like the idea of hacking involved.
Some people don't want to "hack" their wii.
Some people don't have the materials to "hack" their wii.
Some people people don't like Brawl at all.

You left out the sizeable chunk of people who just prefer normal Brawl more.

 

[Ryne]

Brawl+ is a joke. Nothing but a bunch of Meleeheads not wanting to accept change, thats all.

 

[GreenFox]

I've never played Brawl+ did they change it where you can wavedash?

 

[JOE!]

I've never played Brawl+ did they change it where you can wavedash?

why would you need to....?

they have auto L-canceling, and etc, etc...

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Brawl+ is a joke. Nothing but a bunch of Meleeheads not wanting to accept change, thats all.

This is stupid. The people who like melee.......play melee.

 

[mobilisq]

i dont play brawl + because if i want a game that plays like melee, ill just play melee

 

[MK26]

:////

Brawl+ is not Melee 2.0

It is Smash 3.1

 

[Rikana]

LOL here goes the "play melee" shiet.

I play Melee and I also play Brawl+. I also play Smash64. They're entirely different. You might as well say Melee is ssb64 2.0 with many more things, because technically, it is. Brawl breaks many of the formula of ssb64 and melee which is why Brawl is sort of in its own category. Brawl+ has a mixture of all three games.

You left out the sizeable chunk of people who just prefer normal Brawl more.

That's where you can interpret "Some people are used to Brawl" as "I like Brawl".

 

[Salocin Katze]

@Ryne and mobilisq

It's a common misconception that Brawl+ is melee 2.0. Why is it never, "Brawl+ is 64 2.0"? If you are going to make these accusation then back them up with subsequent facts.

For example:

Brawl+ is like melee/64 because it has higher hitstun, and I don't like that.
Brawl+ is like melee/64 because it has no sweetspot edges, and I don't like that.
Brawl+ is NOT like melee/64 because it has GREATER character balance, and I like that.
Brawl+ is NOT like melee because it does NOT have wavedashing, and I like that.

This thread is for discussing the greater ideas behind the dispute and not blanket statements that cause nothing to be discussed or resolved. Please contribute more constructively next time.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Everything is going to contain bias. Brawl+ has bias from the entire community that plays it. That's how we made the project better because we provide feedback and then the characters are altered. Balanced Brawl's going to have some bias in it. Any type of alteration is going to include a bit of bias. The moment Brawl was made, bias was involved.

We just play off the game creator's bias and that allows us to think that its standard.

Again, inb4lock.

No I mean for Brawl+ the bias seems to be more apparent. Balanced Brawl's bias is much lower than vice versa.

It probably does have some bias to it, but for Brawl+ it just looks and feels like they are going out of their way to nerf and boost some characters.

@Red Ryu

I understand the viewpoint in regards to bias, but singling out Falcon seems strange. He's relatvely bad in B+.

Anywho, main reason anyone wouldn't like B+: They haven't tried it.

I thought the earlier version made Falcon really good, I'm not entirely well versed on what the tier list in each game is.

I have tried it, I did have some liking for it, but still the main turnoff for me is that it feels like it's trying to be Melee 2.0.

It's not Melee 2.0, far from it, but it just had this feeling to it when I played it that I couldn't shake off.

 

[REL38]

Brawl+ is a cool game.
Lucas and Pika stand out as my favourite.

The big problem I see with it is the never ending loop of "altering" characters.

In the latest version iirc, Ness' Fair is mad crazy.

So the next version may fix this, but decide to change other characters' moves as well.
It's the constant altering of characters that I see as the major flaw with Brawl+ as not everyone in its respective community will be happy with the current version.
This means constant and constant alterations with every version that some people will be happy with wherelse others will voice their disapproval and demand that "this and this" be fixed for the next version.

I don't necessarily see bias as the problem, but rather stressed disapproval (within its respective community) with whatever the current version of Brawl+ is out.

 

[Turazrok]

To anyone who dismisses it because it is a hack, Mrs. Pacman is all I have to say. Kthxbai.

 

[Banjodorf]

Brawl+ is a joke. Nothing but a bunch of Meleeheads not wanting to accept change, thats all.

I liked vBrawl, but was curious how certain characters would end up or work if certain things were changed or balanced out.

Upon going through the for-some-reason 5 hour process of instillation, I was instantly pleased that I could play Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon seperately, and instantly became an Ivysaur 2nd, with Diddy and ROB still being my mains. (Olimar remains a 2nd)

I was impressed that certain stages were neutral now (WarioWare, Luigi's Mansion, etc. (I'm using the Nightly Builds...I think 3.0 or something), and overall it's great.

One of my friends who was an Ike main instantly became quite an awesome Sonic main.

Back on topic, all of the reasons I posted for liking Brawl+, save for the fastness, do not equate with me being a "Meleehead".

I loved Melee, I loved vBrawl, and I love Brawl+.

My only quarrel with Brawl+ personally, is that alot of my Dorm mates don't understand why its better, or different, or even interesting. Such a shame. And then I feel bad when they get rocked by Ivysaur, and instantly leave.

 

[SuperFudgeChoco]

I say let people play what they want to. People who say "durr Brawl+ is Melee 2.0" can play vBrawl and people who want to play Brawl+ or BBRawl can play that. It's impossible to get people who have a closed mind to even try it, so I don't bother. A way to get people to try it is to have it just ready to play on a HBC installed Wii (with Gecko of course) and just let them try it. Have them play on frozen stages (if you're showing B+) and just show all the differences to see if they like it or not. I've done this often and have gotten a couple of people to switch over (and helping via texts to install, lots and lots of texts =P).
Firmware 4.2 also sorta screws up the way to show people. Yeah there is the alt form of loading (I've never done it, I've had HBC forever) and I hope it helps people install it, but I still think people will be wary of loading it in such a way.

TL;DR: Play what you want and give something a shot but if you don't like it go back to what you want.

 

[Lord Thunder]

I just never cared enough to check out B+

A lot of people probably don't like it because they don't see it as legitimate.

 

[BEES]

I think B+ is excellent in concept. It's the only thing I have that all my friends will play, and at this point I've sunk more time into it than any other incarnation of Smash Bros. The gist I get is that Brawl does not have enough combos for my liking, 64 does not have enough characters or pixels for their liking, and all but one of them refuses to play Melee.

Personally I could go 64 all the time but I've got nobody to play it with.

I've got my eye on Brawl- and Brawl64. I suspect one of these or another upstart could replace B+ for me, because lately I've found myself at odds with the B+ community about the direction of the game. Even if they don't get the competitive scene that B+ has, that's okay. I've always got Melee.

 

[FSLink]

No I mean for Brawl+ the bias seems to be more apparent. Balanced Brawl's bias is much lower than vice versa.

It probably does have some bias to it, but for Brawl+ it just looks and feels like they are going out of their way to nerf and boost some characters.



I thought the earlier version made Falcon really good, I'm not entirely well versed on what the tier list in each game is.

I have tried it, I did have some liking for it, but still the main turnoff for me is that it feels like it's trying to be Melee 2.0.

It's not Melee 2.0, far from it, but it just had this feeling to it when I played it that I couldn't shake off.

I can see where you're coming from, but bias is always going to be there, especially since Brawl+ changes the mechanics of the gameplay too, balancing it out is much more difficult, so of course there'd be more changes than BBrawl which is rather more conservative with changes.

Falcon was very good, yeah, but he's been toned down lately I believe (I haven't tried out the newest nightly myself) because of the lol knee easy combos.

I guess that it feels like Melee in some ways, but I honestly feel that (at least in 5.0) that it feels closer to a combination of Melee and 64. Fast, but great combo ability with every character. I'm personally glad that they didn't keep L-Canceling or Wavedashing in just for the sake of being another Melee, I love the fact that it feels like another Smash game. I play 64, Melee, Brawl, and Brawl+ vigorously, and they definitely have a different feel per game.

I don't necessarily see bias as the problem, but rather stressed disapproval (within its respective community) with whatever the current version of Brawl+ is out.

Yeah, I definitely see this could be more of a problem than any "bias" you could try to find in the project.

Brawl+ is a joke. Nothing but a bunch of Meleeheads not wanting to accept change, thats all.

Yup, we love our new Brawl with wavedashing, L-canceling, and...oh wait.
Not wanting to accept change? I don't think I'm the only one around here who likes Brawl+ and also likes Brawl, though from a competitive standpoint, Brawl+ can be more fun since...well, more characters play better. Ganondorf and others being more fun to play for me is always great in my book.

 

[KingSlimeKnight]

Why So Serious?

I treat Brawl+ as if it were just a random video game that has nothing to do with the SSB series. It is unique in its own way, it doesn't have to be the same as Brawl. Humans and chimpanzees are 98.5% related to each other. Even though we are 98.5% related to chimps, they're still a seperate species. Even though we come from the same Tribe of Hominini (one step before Genus), we're not the same Genus (humans as Homo, Chimps as Pan). They're not completely the same, but very, very similar. What "most" of you Brawl+ haters are doing is treating Brawl+(humans) like Brawl or your image of the perfect Brawl+(chimpanzees). Of course it won't do what you wanted it to do.

So what if they're different? So what if they're quite similar? You treat it as it is, not as something else. If you hate Brawl+, then explain why you hate it without comparing it with something else(if you did do so, then your complaint wouldn't be ignored). Brawl+ is Brawl+. It doesn't need to live up to your expectations even if it was made to do so. You can't please everyone with Brawl+, and there's no true way to make everyone think just one way. There is no such thing as a perfect game. It's just an opinion, something that what you think.

Perfect has to be something universal, not only to that person, or else it won't be perfect. Brawl+ may keep on updating until people lose interest on it since we all have different opinions and complaints that makes us go against each other and explode with rage now and then. I agree that the updating should end one day. I won't expect it to continue for 30 years straight. If it did, then that would be messed up. Perfection can be achieved if you look at it in ap positive angle, instead of being so negative and complaining about the little things. Brawl+ is SO much different than Brawl in my opinion. It's already perfect to me. Why? It's a whole new different game that you can play. If you can play it and have fun, then it's a perfect game since it fulfils the purpose of the game: to have fun. The updates are just making it even more better than perfect, creating a whole new level of perfection. Doesn't it sound better if I put it that way? I may have lowered my stardards as to what makes a game perfect, but the point is that what you think matters to you and only to you, no matter what. Even if other people listen to you, they can choose to see things your way or not. Who cares if you're weird. Who cares if you prefer waffles over pancakes. Who cares if you rather play melee than brawl.

If this purpose of this thread is to hear about other people's opinions, then I'm fine with that, but other than that, it serves no other purpose except for the spread of anger and frustration. [/end of topic]

 

[Alphatron]

I suspect one of these or another upstart could replace B+ for me, because lately I've found myself at odds with the B+ community about the direction of the game. Even if they don't get the competitive scene that B+ has, that's okay.

In spite of what was said, shieldstun was actually increased in the beta test set. You've nothing to worry about if that's the case. Unless you're talking about the discussion in that one thread you made, which I didn't take very seriously to be honest.

Once the final versionof brawl+ is out, I expect it to be a fine product of all of the effort put into it. I can't really speak on where the bias comes from, nor can I say anything about it, as no one's given any example of clear bias in an official set.

As for trying to be like melee, it was like that at first. I disregarded it altogether and only got into it a few months ago when I saw that this mindset has changed.

I expect that most of the hate for brawl+ comes from a clear misunderstanding of what its goals are. The few people I've talked with about on this subject didn't have any idea that character balance was even a goal in brawl+, and some thought that it was just normal brawl with wavedashing(despite the mechanic not being in the game).

 

[-LzR-]

I heard Brawl+ Has no move decay, move decay is awesome. Period.

 

[Rikana]

We had move decay in one of our experimental sets. It doesn't suit Brawl+ as hitsun + move decay just leads to more combos.

 

[Alphatron]

The beta tried it a variation of it recently, but it was removed yet again.

 

[Jonas]

I've played it, it's fun, but to me it's more of a change than an actual improvement @_@
One thing I don't really like is how the metagame evolves no faster than the actual game.

 

['V']

I don't like any of them.

 

[ph00tbag]

Falcon was never all that great in B+. Actually, the creator bias in B+, while there, is spread out among every character. It does lead to a problem of everyone seeing little problems that one character or the other has, and trying to work a fix into the next build, though. That's the main reason I've stopped taking it as seriously; after the next build, the game is going to need to be completely rebalanced to make up for changes in the physics, and that's going to take even more builds. I don't know when they're going to stop making new builds of the game, and until a good gold release floats up, I'm finding it hard to maintain my excitement.

 

[BEES]

In spite of what was said, shieldstun was actually increased in the beta test set. You've nothing to worry about if that's the case. Unless you're talking about the discussion in that one thread you made, which I didn't take very seriously to be honest.

That discussion was meant to be serious. Even if I failed to convince anyone important about anything. I don't care about shieldstun. I think if the game had the proper amount of offense, Brawl's normal shieldstun could be perfectly fine and perhaps necessary.

 

[mobilisq]

full page late response but hey: it was a quick quip

let me revise my answer to: if i want to play something that isnt brawl i wont play brawl

 

[Arie904]

Itsgayitsstupidlolznewb

 

[Veril]

i dont play brawl + because if i want a game that plays like melee, ill just play melee

And if you want a game that plays like a turn based RPG, with tripping, you can play vBrawl. B+ isn't melee, isn't trying to be melee, and only is compared to melee cause vBrawl is so god d*** slow.

I don't know when they're going to stop making new builds of the game, and until a good gold release floats up, I'm finding it hard to maintain my excitement.

This is the most significant problem with B+. Its a beta. I really sympathize as I'm feeling the same "change fatigue" many others are. I want, badly, for there to be a final set by the end of this year. Will it happen? Idk. I'm working as hard as I can trying to balance things with the new hitstun, but I'm working in addition to being a full time student and I know many others in the wbr are in the same boat.

I can only ask that people who are turned off by the rate of changes keep an open mind so that when the gold version does get released, you won't discount it as 'just another tester set'. Wait if you must, its understandable, but don't hate B+ just because of the NECESSARY long-term process of balancing and polishing a game as massively complex as this is.

 

[DUB]

I'm not sure about it. At first I didn't like it and I'm not sure if I do yet. The "combos" are cool and all, but I think at this point, it's a spoof. The game really doesn't even natural. Some characters feel like they have unnecessary weight and the general movement is different. The hit stun seems awkwardly long, and why are footstools not out? No tripping is cool, but footstools are dumb aspect and no one ever means to do them yet then can cost matches.

 

[Problem2]

I gave up on Brawl+ because they keep making more and more changes, and every change seemed more insane and out of place than the last. BBrawl on the other hand isn't so bad.

Brawl- is interesting, but I really don't care to play it. I have enough versions of smash on my hands. It does reminds me of of MvC2 though.