Who is the Best Marth right now?(Mew2King excluded)

[stelzig]

So are you joking now or are you actually sticking to your claim that it is simply fact and therefore not complaining.

Not that I even understand how you came to the conclusion that you can't complain about supposed facts.

Stop the whining already. Please.

 

[Beat!]

Hey Spam, I liked the part where you said "I never complain" and then immediately followed it up with a wall of complaining.

Hilarious.

 

[Diakonos]

Alright guys, that does it. I'm maining Young Link. For, in the future, even HIS metagame will be so advanced that Marth will left in the dust, a victim to all projectile-wielding characters like the prepubescent Hyrulian elf.

 

[Max?]

I just think the Marth mains now need to learn from one another as each of you has your own strengths and weaknesses and they overlap somewhat.

But for the record I'm the best Marth, and if you don't believe me, MM?

 

[Beat!]

Yeah sure, I'm pretty ace at dem dittos. =p

 

[Cactuar]

There isn't really much else I can say on the topic. Marth's development was incredibly front-loaded. We had several highly intelligent players pushing him to the limit during their primes, and pretty much everyone has seen what he can do. His ceiling just isn't as high as a lot of other characters, but that doesn't mean he is bad by any means. You just have to work your *** off to go even with someone who, years ago, would have been an easy win, purely because of the availability of knowledge around how to fight Marth.

 

[Archangel]

So are you joking now or are you actually sticking to your claim that it is simply fact and therefore not complaining.

Not that I even understand how you came to the conclusion that you can't complain about supposed facts.

Stop the whining already. Please.

I don't understand how I am whining just by stating what everyone can see. If you noticed I said right at the start. "This is kind of how most people feel". Basically a summary of what you would be reading here if you were reading this thread instead of stalking my posts.....creep..

Hey Spam, I liked the part where you said "I never complain" and then immediately followed it up with a wall of complaining.

Hilarious.

uh...read the above. Cactuar knows whats up. Also I'm guessing it tastes very good then?

 

[stelzig]

You can't see why it's whining to talk about how horrible you suddenly think your character is all the damn time? I doubt many low tier players constantly talk about their character this way. To me this just comes off as you giving up and trying to find an excuse to quit your goal of being the best in the world too. (in other words, I actually also think you're johning)

I can tell you it in another way as well: We heard you. Several times. You don't need to continue (the moaning/whining/complaining/fact-stating or whatever you wanna call it).

Edit: It isn't exactly uncommon that people underrate their character, i'll admit that, but marth boards really stands out in this aspect, lol. Just rating their character (and players) in general really. Instead of working on their own game.

 

[Max?]

Marth's honestly not that great tho.... And I'm no Marth main, tho I do have the best Marth


MM?

 

[Beat!]

I don't understand how I am whining just by stating what everyone can see. If you noticed I said right at the start. "This is kind of how most people feel". Basically a summary of what you would be reading here if you were reading this thread instead of stalking my posts.....creep..

You want Marth to be a bad character because it means you have something to blame when not doing well, instead of accepting that you're not as good as you may want to be and start practicing

uh...read the above. Cactuar knows whats up.

Hey, that's funny. You know what I could say to you right now, if I wanted to be an immature **** instead of considering a top level players' viewpoint?

also....how does Cactuar's**** taste?

... but I'm not going to do that.

Also I'm guessing it tastes very good then?

Read above.








@Cactuar
I disagree with you, but I realize that you're far more knowledgeable than I on the subject, so I'll leave it for now, and hopefully I'll eventually be able to prove you wrong.

 

[Archangel]

You can't see why it's whining to talk about how horrible you suddenly think your character is all the damn time? I doubt many low tier players constantly talk about their character this way. To me this just comes off as you giving up and trying to find an excuse to quit your goal of being the best in the world too. (in other words, I actually also think you're johning)

I can tell you it in another way as well: We heard you. Several times. You don't need to continue (the moaning/whining/complaining/fact-stating or whatever you wanna call it).

Edit: It isn't exactly uncommon that people underrate their character, i'll admit that, but marth boards really stands out in this aspect, lol. Just rating their character (and players) in general really. Instead of working on their own game.

2 things

1. are you and Beat conjoined?
2. did you fail to read cataur's post?

You want Marth to be a bad character because it means you have something to blame when not doing well, instead of accepting that you're not as good as you may want to be and start practicing

Hey, that's funny. You know what I could say to you right now, if I wanted to be an immature **** instead of considering a top level players' viewpoint?.

?


No need to be so upset bro. Besides agreeing or disagreeing with a known player doesn't make you a ****rider/anti-fan. When you make a statement like "oh this statement from the golden mouth of ________ is the almighty word of god and we must all bow and agree"....anything close to that just kind of strikes me of **********-ish. All I can say is for those of you who disagree you haven't been around long enough to see Marth's growth from...walking around and Fsmashing to where it is now. I'm not saying that Marth has hit his cap just yet. I do think that if a few players jump they will hit there head on it though.

 

[Beat!]

agreeing or disagreeing with a known player doesn't make you a ****rider/anti-fan.

You know, that was kinda what I was getting at. >_>

When you make a statement like "oh this statement from the golden mouth of ________ is the almighty word of god and we must all bow and agree"....anything close to that just kind of strikes me of **********-ish.

Wait, is this because of this quote?

You heard what the best player in the world said, guys.
<3

Because I thought it was obvious I was just agreeing with Armada in a friendly way. Sorry if you thought I was shoving my opinion down your throat.

Although I must say that I don't really think you're in a position to call me out for that anyway, considering you did the exact same thing with Cactuar's post.



I'm not mad btw. I (almost) always sound angry when I debate. Both IRL and online. Dunno why. I'll admit that I'm mildly annoyed, but not more than that.

 

[Cherished Doll]

DR PP HAS A MARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and Tai is the best bros

 

[Cactuar]

Knock it off with the insults.

Though I am magically delicious.

 

[Beat!]

Haha, sorry for dragging you into it.


And Spam, I think we've had this discussion way too many times. Maybe we should just agree to disagree?

 

[Archangel]

Because I thought it was obvious I was just agreeing with Armada in a friendly way. Sorry if you thought I was shoving my opinion down your throat.

Although I must say that I don't really think you're in a position to call me out for that anyway, considering you did the exact same thing with Cactuar's post.

I'm not mad btw. I (almost) always sound angry when I debate. Both IRL and online. Dunno why. I'll admit that I'm mildly annoyed, but not more than that.

Ok we'll drop the **** sucking thing.... Those of you that are you trying so hard to disagree with me and the others I ask you this. What evidence do you have to support Marth being the best character in the game? Because he use to win alot is that it? Let me ask you something.

If I go outside right now and fight a 13 year old it's likely that I'll win easily. Given time and training along with growing up. It isn't hard to believe that 5 or 6 years from now that same kid can come back to fight me evenly or even beat my *** pretty badly as an adult. This right here is a Metaphor for Marth's life in smash. He beat everyone only because they were children in terms of their development. Now he's fighting grown men and some of them have 3rd degree blackbelts lol.

DR PP HAS A MARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and Tai is the best bros

I want to see him, Mango, Armada, even Mew2King and ICE go 100% Marth in a tournament. Then whoever places higher out of them can be the best Marth

 

[Beat!]

I never said Marth is the best character in the game... >_>

 

[Max?]

Though I am magically delicious.

I laughed.

Tai is fake. I'm the best Marth. MM?

 

[Beat!]

10$ on Tai

 

[Battlecow]

ONE MILLION DOLLARS on ORIGINAL TOOL GANGSTER

 

[OverLord]

He's the Man.

 

[Max?]

10$ on Tai

A poor investment on your part

ONE MILLION DOLLARS on ORIGINAL TOOL GANGSTER

1000+ Respect points

 

[Archangel]

I never said Marth is the best character in the game... >_>

oh....what exactly where you saying then?

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

i get jealous everytime i lurk the falco/fox/falcon boards, because there's so much discussion going on while all we really do is complain (im guilty of it too)

any of you guys find certain matchups weird?
personally, the ganon/falcon matchups seem super janky compared to the rest of the MUs

 

[Archangel]

i get jealous everytime i lurk the falco/fox/falcon boards, because there's so much discussion going on while all we really do is complain (im guilty of it too)

any of you guys find certain matchups weird?
personally, the ganon/falcon matchups seem super janky compared to the rest of the MUs

Ganon/Falcon MU's aren't worth complaining about imo. it's a chance to be patience without getting projectiles to the face/foot. lol. What exactly do you find to be "janky" about them?

 

[Metakill]

lol am I the only who thinks Marth is #1 on Melee?

I think Marth only need to renew his metagame idk how or what... I'm just a Fox main lol (second marth but... I suck with him)

Come on guys, you can get back that Marth reign with Ken, you only need beat Armada/Mango/PP/Hbox ... Easy :3 (?)

 

[Archangel]

lol am I the only who thinks Marth is #1 on Melee?

Yes

I think Marth only need to renew his metagame idk how or what... I'm just a Fox main lol (second marth but... I suck with him)

Every time someone mentions Marth being the best and Ken in the same post know that somewhere on the planet an innocent child is ***** and then murdered....thanks bro.

Come on guys, you can get back that Marth reign with Ken, you only need beat Armada/Mango/PP/Hbox ... Easy :3 (?)

Once again a child is *****/killed. The odds of you beating Armada/Mango/PP/Hbox with Marth only is not so high. Considering all of them are considerably good and good at the MU You would have to play TAS perfect I'd say.

 

[JPOBS]

i get jealous everytime i lurk the falco/fox/falcon boards, because there's so much discussion going on while all we really do is complain (im guilty of it too)

For real. Marth boards now looking like Falcon boards circa 2008-2010 while scar was still running the show.

@Spam you really need to cool your jets bro. You say all this outlandish s*** like "the odds of beating PP/Armada with marth not that high" and I just read your posts and laugh.

Do you think Armada (he plays ****ing peach for crying out loud) looks at his opponents and say "oh boo hoo, they play falco top tiers and I play peach, I'm doomed."
No. He goes in there and wins tournaments. All you do is complain about how marth "can't" win tournaments. Who the f*** was winning tournaments with Peach before armada? Imagine if armada has just up and said "oh nobody wins with peach so it must be impossible".

Likewise, who was winning tournies with puff before mango?
Who was the last falco to win a big tourny before PP? Freaking PC chris is 2006?!?

Stop being a whiny little puppet about how marth "can't win tournaments."
If mango, PP, and armada held your mindsets about their characters, they'd still be as bad at this game as you are. Sack up and play.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

We were really good about 6 months ago. Search posts from that period...its a gold mine.

 

[Wake]

Neither Puff nor Peach were winning tons of stuff until Mango and Armada came along, right? (maybe I'm just wrong though haha I started not too long ago )

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think a lot of people are absolutely terrible against Marth, despite the knowledge available for beating him. A lot of regions don't have a tournament-level Marth, so he gets bonus points against those people (and they are certainly plentiful).

I also think that, despite the voluminous tomes of information available on him, a lot of aspects of his game have been lost to the sands of time. PP is the only one who seems to understand the finer points of using his sword creatively (and, more importantly, with purpose). I really do feel the "trim the fat" approach has brought a lot of competitive success to the character, and enabled a lot of development in his grab game. But ultimately Marth is good because he's got a massive sword, and I don't think enough people know how to swing it.

Cactuar's Marth has movement tricks and strategies that are absolutely incredible. Nobody else uses them, or understands why he uses them.

I just don't really see a Marth that integrates all of why he's good into a single style. Or even the majority of his good points into a single style. M2K came close at one point but his decision to focus on other characters has really taken its toll on his Marth's consistency. It's kind of like the "Fox problem". There isn't a single Fox that captures all of why the character is good. It's all very fragmented. I feel similarly about Marth.

 

[Archangel]

whole lot of stuff.....

If I go outside right now and fight a 13 year old it's likely that I'll win easily. Given time and training along with growing up. It isn't hard to believe that 5 or 6 years from now that same kid can come back to fight me evenly or even beat my *** pretty badly as an adult. This right here is a Metaphor for Marth's life in smash. He beat everyone only because they were children in terms of their development. Now he's fighting grown men and some of them have 3rd degree blackbelts lol.

Metaphor for Marth's Metagame. What part of it didn't you get?

all this aside it's not like I'm saying you can't beat Falco, Peach, Puff, Fox with Marth. I'm saying the odds are against you beating so many good ones in a row.

The evolution of Marth is more or less from having 70-30 MU's across the board to having mostly 50-50, some 55-45, and maybe 60-40s to come.

so you if you flip a coin 4 times in a row, 100 times. The odds of you beating PP,Mango,Armada, and Hbox with Marth only. would be the amount of times that coin hit heads all 4 times. This is assuming you are on their level or in some cases slightly better to start with. And those are just 4 players. not even mentioning the other Jr. Titans that you have to beat before you get to these 4. Again. I'm not saying it is Impossible by any means. But going Marth only(means not switching to Fox,Falco, Sheik...etc) then the odds don't favor you.

 

[Beat!]

Did you just compare a 50/50 matchup to a coinflip? It's like you haven't even understood that player skill exists and is the most important factor by FAR.

Is your argument for Marth being bad/overrated seriously "he doesn't have 70-30 matchups against top/high tiers anymore" then I don't know what to say. Do you think Peach has such a ridiculous matchup-spread? Are you really of the opinion that a character HAS to have several "70-30" matchups to succeed?

And please stop citing your own weird analogies as if they prove something. You saying they are a perfect summary of Marth's metagame doesn't automatically make it true. Yes, it COULD be true, and there are players who support it, but don't walk around stating it as if it's a proven fact.

 

[Wake]

I think Marth has arguably better MUs than Peach does... especially against Fox, maybe the most important character to have an at least ok MU against. Of course, there is also Falco, which Peach may have baarely an easier time fighting.

 

[Archangel]

Did you just compare a 50/50 matchup to a coinflip? It's like you haven't even understood that player skill exists and is the most important factor by FAR.

Is your argument for Marth being bad/overrated seriously "he doesn't have 70-30 matchups against top/high tiers anymore" then I don't know what to say. Do you think Peach has such a ridiculous matchup-spread? Are you really of the opinion that a character HAS to have several "70-30" matchups to succeed?

And please stop citing your own weird analogies as if they prove something. You saying they are a perfect summary of Marth's metagame doesn't automatically make it true. Yes, it COULD be true, and there are players who support it, but don't walk around stating it as if it's a proven fact.

it's amazing how you take a small line that was actually somewhat of an exaggeration and you stretch it out so far....

I used a coin flip because when people think of 50-50 then a coin flip comes to mind. Player skill is a factor I know.... when I said "This is assuming you are on their level or in some cases slightly better". WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK I WAS TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!????????????

anyway...I talk about characters more than players for a reason, assuming the players are on the same skill level overall...then that should nullify the player skill argument....unless you want to get crazy and say "oh 2 minutes in player one was on a higher skill level but at the 3 minute mark player 2 was better"....but that is just silly.

So assuming you are on the same skill level most cases I would say you have about a 50-50 shot...however characters strength vs weakness is also a pretty big factor. Marth's strength are as obvious as pressing left or right on the C-stick. His weaknesses are being exposed and other character strengths are still coming to light is all. Not to mention...if player skill becomes nullified and Character strength and weakness becomes the final factor. Can you be sure certain MU's like Marth vs Fox for example are really 50-50?

 

[Beat!]

Player skill isn't "nullified" when two players are roughly equally skilled... -.-

But I guess you're right to some extent. If the two players are exactly equally good, then it's pretty safe to assume that they will go back and forth a lot. To be (more) certain of victory, the Marth player would then have to be better than his opponent. The huge problem with your argument is that this is the exact case for every single character in the game. Be the better player in order to win. Why on earth should Marth be any different. Why does 50/50 matchups across the board mean such a disaster for him, when most characters would kill for such a great spread? What is the point you're trying to make?

 

[Archangel]

Player skill isn't "nullified" when two players are roughly equally skilled... -.-

But I guess you're right to some extent. If the two players are exactly equally good, then it's pretty safe to assume that they will go back and forth a lot. To be (more) certain of victory, the Marth player would then have to be better than his opponent. The huge problem with your argument is that this is the exact case for every single character in the game. Be the better player in order to win. Why on earth should Marth be any different. Why does 50/50 matchups across the board mean such a disaster for him, when most characters would kill for such a great spread? What is the point you're trying to make?

You seem to grasp what I was getting at initially. I don't think it is a disaster. I never did. I never said Marth is at D tier. I never said that at any point. If I say character X is not the best that doesn't mean I think this character is the worst. I am simply stating that he isn't in the top 2 or 3 and should a player should cap out with him(human cap not perfect TAS cap...impossible) I think such a person would stand the best chance of winning an international going 100% Marth.

Still I disbelieve in the idea that certain players can just do things that others cannot. I mean it's true to an extent. For example I might not be able to do a back flip. So if you bring someone around me who can you could argue they are just on another athletic scale than me. However somebody out there can do a back flip so...that doesn't make this person so unique to me.

Applying that to smash....I think it's equally as unreasonable to throw in the towel when someone like Armada, M2K, Axe, Shroomed...etc comes along and just say well that's it. They are the best with their characters and nobody can ever pass them or get as good as they have with those characters. I think such an idea is somewhat silly personally even though it looks like it at times lol.

back in track though, Assuming 2 players are on the same level and both have capped out their characters...then who's to say Match-ups that are normally seen as 50-50 are actually worse do to character abilities? For the same reasons people like Armada feel Fox Peach is 65-35 but no fox playes well enough to prove it....I guess if that fox ever showed up he would probably have at least a 55-45 edge on Marth if not greater). Assuming that this person is not unique, Other players will start to hit that Level overtime as well....so then in 2015 what will be the odds of Marth winning an international event?

I ask alot of questions and use waaaaay to many Metaphors....

 

[OverLord]

Why you care so much about odds..?

Who cares, just play.
Facts, not faps.

 

[Beat!]

No Fox has been able to "prove" that Fox Peach is 65/35 because Armada is A MUCH BETTER PLAYER than every Fox in the world

Similarly, Marth hasn't won nationals/internationals in a while because no Marth player in the entire world is anywhere near as good as Armada, Mango, Hbox and PP (M2K is currently NOT very close, even though he's a solid 5th). It's the exact same principle. It's not character-related. It's player-related.

Stop bringing odds into the discussion. It's pointless. Players aren't static.

 

[Archangel]

No Fox has been able to "prove" that Fox Peach is 65/35 because Armada is A MUCH BETTER PLAYER than every Fox in the world

Similarly, Marth hasn't won nationals/internationals in a while because no Marth player in the entire world is anywhere near as good as Armada, Mango, Hbox and PP (M2K is currently NOT very close, even though he's a solid 5th). It's the exact same principle. It's not character-related. It's player-related.

Stop bringing odds into the discussion. It's pointless. Players aren't static.

If what you say is true. Then those players should be able to go Marth an win right?