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Who is the Best Marth right now?(Mew2King excluded)

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Diakonos

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Bing: maybe you're right. Sion is *still* improving even though we haven't had any tournaments in a while.

I guess it's just that I consider myself to be the same level as Sion, and I don't consider myself world-class. But I feel like when I play well there's still no falco that has a guaranteed win on me. Now, about Fox...

:phone:
 

stelzig

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It would've been my first recorded tournament set and all :/
So everything AJP recorded is already uploaded? Guess me and eagle vs UGS wasn't recorded either then... I was looking forward to watching that :(
Hope hack vs. Dev is recorded, the games in losers bracket (that I saw) were so close and exciting :D
 

trahhSTEEZY

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@spam

calle looked good in 08-09'?? i think you're thinking a bit too far back, we hardly even acknowledged the europe scene (as rude as that sounds) until genesis 1 in 09'. Calle started really shining in 2010 imo. i still think he's spectacular, and what is your basis for there being like 500 falcos better than him? i can hardly think of like 5 or so, if that

name like 5 falcos better than calle for me

edit; go watch some calle from late 07'..he wasn't thatttt great. you can tell he drastically improved later.


dunno how falco even came up

but all i know is ICE coming to apex is probably one of the coolest things for apex overall (besides javi ofcourse :p)

ive been dying for a dominant marth to come do work.
 

Archangel

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@spam

calle looked good in 08-09'?? i think you're thinking a bit too far back, we hardly even acknowledged the europe scene (as rude as that sounds) until genesis 1 in 09'. Calle started really shining in 2010 imo. i still think he's spectacular, and what is your basis for there being like 500 falcos better than him? i can hardly think of like 5 or so, if that

name like 5 falcos better than calle for me
Correction. You didn't even acknowledge the europe scene until Genesis 1. Small amount of us watch world wide players. I already knew who Zgetto, Adam, Nihonjin(Amsah)...etc where before they got here.

I was obviously exaggerating about the 500 though. Aldwyn, Zhu, Shiz, Sion, Mango, Faab, Chops, Dr.PP, Kou, Stricnyn, Axe(Falco), Leffen(Mediocre), Pepito...I'm probably leaving out some but I think sometime between 2009-2011(present second) These players could give Calle a run. Not saying better though but at least 5 of them could beat him.


As for Ice if he gets scrapped out somehow and M2K Sheik/Fox's his way to the top just to make all of us(and himself) very sad again.....I think It'll be a huge shot in the chest for Marth as a whole. Especially if there are no Marth's in like the top 10-15 places.
 

Beat!

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Ice will probably go Sheik against other Sheiks and Fox against Falcons.

edit: I just realized I misinterpreted your post. I guess it's still relevant though.
 

trahhSTEEZY

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Correction. You didn't even acknowledge the europe scene until Genesis 1. Small amount of us watch world wide players. I already knew who Zgetto, Adam, Nihonjin(Amsah)...etc where before they got here.

I was obviously exaggerating about the 500 though. Aldwyn, Zhu, Shiz, Sion, Mango, Faab, Chops, Dr.PP, Kou, Stricnyn, Axe(Falco), Leffen(Mediocre), Pepito...I'm probably leaving out some but I think sometime between 2009-2011(present second) These players could give Calle a run. Not saying better though but at least 5 of them could beat him.


As for Ice if he gets scrapped out somehow and M2K Sheik/Fox's his way to the top just to make all of us(and himself) very sad again.....I think It'll be a huge shot in the chest for Marth as a whole. Especially if there are no Marth's in like the top 10-15 places.
lol kou? im guessing your basis for all of this is 100% youtube..?
i was beating kou in falco dittos at genesis 2. my friend hardly lost to him in falco dittos in pools, and we're just random vegas players. kou didn't make past 3rd round pools. I see any falcos at Calle's level doing this very convincingly.

i disagree about aldwyn faab and pepito but i'd leave the euros to anwser that one.

also we were talking about who's better, not which of these falcos could beat him in falco dittos.
and now you're saying they aren't better , but could beat him, that's totally different.

last i've seen chops play, it wasn't very impressive. he's incredibly rusty. of course youtube speculation.

idk players like sion, chops and stric, from what i remember, don't play against players of the caliber that calle W has been playing..maybe i'm misinformed. but i mean even diakonos, someone who heavily plays with sion doesn't even see sion at calle's level, someone that knows sions ins and outs..
 

Beat!

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Aldwyn is better than him
Pepito is not quite as good, but not super far away.
Faab... idk. I wanna say CW's better, but Faab did place better at Beast 2... they're probably about the same, although I think CW has a better chance against the big names.
 

OverLord

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Faab places very good at every tournament in Europe. Usually 5th at worst.

Aldwyn placed 5th at Berlin Calling losing only to Armada, and 5th at BEAST2 losing to Armada and Ice.

CalleW is for sure a top player and is very good, but he attended just Swedesh tourneys in the last years and managed to get "only" 7th at BEAST2, surpassed by Hack, Leffen, Faab and Aldwyn.

So I'd say there are at least 3 Falco players in Europe that seems to be better out of results. Aldwyn also did way better than him against Ice, barely losing to him 3-2.

I never got to understand this issue US players have for CalleW. He is clearly good and creative, but didn't accomplished much.

I can't say about US Falco players, but surely in Europe Faab, Aldwyn and Leffen are better Falco players out of results.


PS: Pepito is almost there in my opinion, hope to see better results from him very soon.
 

trahhSTEEZY

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i would never sleep on aldwyn! i know he and all the people listed ****, just didn't know forsure who ***** harder :)

why do people always love adding more h's to my name? trend has followed for years lolol
 

Veetaak

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i would never sleep on aldwyn! i know he and all the people listed ****, just didn't know forsure who ***** harder :)

why do people always love adding more h's to my name? trend has followed for years lolol
haha, and people always spell my name as "Veetak" so I know how you feel. ¨

Still felt like adding the extra "h's" to your name
 

Diakonos

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cool story, trahhhhh(h)

Yeah, I don't know. CW just is so smoooooooooth. I am always surprised that he doesn't take at least 3rd at the tournaments he attends.
 

Archangel

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lol kou? im guessing your basis for all of this is 100% youtube..?
i was beating kou in falco dittos at genesis 2. my friend hardly lost to him in falco dittos in pools, and we're just random vegas players. kou didn't make past 3rd round pools. I see any falcos at Calle's level doing this very convincingly.

i disagree about aldwyn faab and pepito but i'd leave the euros to anwser that one.

also we were talking about who's better, not which of these falcos could beat him in falco dittos.
and now you're saying they aren't better , but could beat him, that's totally different.

last i've seen chops play, it wasn't very impressive. he's incredibly rusty. of course youtube speculation.

idk players like sion, chops and stric, from what i remember, don't play against players of the caliber that calle W has been playing..maybe i'm misinformed. but i mean even diakonos, someone who heavily plays with sion doesn't even see sion at calle's level, someone that knows sions ins and outs..
ok I'm gonna drop the youtube thing...not worth going into but very funny and somewhat Ironic.

Some cases I do feel that kou and stric and chops may not be better but might have beat him between the times of early 09-present. Meaning January First 2009 it's possible. Considering Armada plays with Calle alot I'd say Chops did very good against him. For those who don't know and can't see(the vids were removed) Chops was more than holding his own against Armada at Gen1. as for Kou and pools well...Over lost to DJN, Lost to Thorn before that...**** happens and the toilet flushes.

as for Diakanos's position on Sion...well Think of how Lucky and Zhu would've look at SS going into Pound 4. They both played him very often. Both of them had more wins over him in various tournament sets. However they were both beat fairly convincingly by Armada. Silentspectre took Armada out almost made it seem easy....It's possibly someone who doesn't play Sion very often but could be perceived as much better could be beat by him.

as for aldwyn faab and pepito. I think Aldwyn and Faab are pretty much ahead of him(even if only slightly). pepito is approaching a high level VERY fast from what I can see. It only takes a bit of hard work and a bit more intense practice and well...anyone can pass anyone (suddenly) 1 year ago SS>S2J now S2J>SS...what the hell? lol
 

S l o X

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1: why is this being discussed in this thread?
2: i think stric9 is about as good as zhu vs spacies. we'll see at apex (;
 

trahhSTEEZY

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ok I'm gonna drop the youtube thing...not worth going into but very funny and somewhat Ironic.
Lol dude, i was completely aware of my use of youtube while calling you out, the difference is im stating where my point of view is. you on the other hand are making statements as if they couldn't be untrue..just saying, it should be read more opinion based i would think!

Some cases I do feel that kou and stric and chops may not be better but might have beat him between the times of early 09-present. Meaning January First 2009 it's possible. Considering Armada plays with Calle alot I'd say Chops did very good against him. For those who don't know and can't see(the vids were removed) Chops was more than holding his own against Armada at Gen1. as for Kou and pools well...Over lost to DJN, Lost to Thorn before that...**** happens and the toilet flushes.
I won't disagree that those players can have a chance at possibly beating him in a match, esp. since a falco ditto shouldn't be a representation of you. but as a player all together i don't think so..

also i'm not sure why you keep bringing up 09, the discussion was based off of :

"Now that it's almost 012 and Falco's have stepped it up he seems to have been caught up to/passed by alot of people who seemed behind him or close to even with him."

So i assume we mean players at their present skill level, or what we've seen the latest of them.
I also agree chops did AMAZING, im pretty sure the match is still up as i've watched it alot since then. but of course this was chops living in Florida, not new york(like 99% sure), he's plays much less now and with players constantly getting better, it's hard to say chops will just unrust up and still be top level.

Also that part about kou and the toilet flushing or whatever, im not sure i get your point. your saying bad losses don't count? they are always excusable? i find good players losing a match theyre expected to win is a part of their consistency failing as a player. there is no "doesnt count" unless they are honestly really sick in my opinion. and obv. that wasnt the case for over or Kou. and this wasn't just a rare case, i played kou for like an hour with a buncha other people, i highly doubt i witnessed him playing bad just for that day, i just think he's far below the best falcos, like faaaaaaar.

as for Diakanos's position on Sion...well Think of how Lucky and Zhu would've look at SS going into Pound 4. They both played him very often. Both of them had more wins over him in various tournament sets. However they were both beat fairly convincingly by Armada. Silentspectre took Armada out almost made it seem easy....It's possibly someone who doesn't play Sion very often but could be perceived as much better could be beat by him.
this example is meh, just because i don't even know if lucky or zhu doubted SS at all. For all I and you(?) know, they considered him to be the best falcon, which would totally flip your point.

and im sure you know this, but falcon vs armada at gen1 was a joke, armada knew nothing about falcon. silentspectre knows it was a fluke. i'd love to see them play now. have you seen the **** armadas done to someone like hax in 2011!?
not too sure about your last point there.
 

Beat!

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Calle W does funny stuff

like celebrating a kill by doing stuff --> edgecancel --> taunt and then getting combo ***** because he was taunting when his opponent (leffen) had respawned.

Just wait 'til you see the vids haha.
 

Archangel

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Lol dude, i was completely aware of my use of youtube while calling you out, the difference is im stating where my point of view is. you on the other hand are making statements as if they couldn't be untrue..just saying, it should be read more opinion based i would think!


I won't disagree that those players can have a chance at possibly beating him in a match, esp. since a falco ditto shouldn't be a representation of you. but as a player all together i don't think so..

also i'm not sure why you keep bringing up 09, the discussion was based off of :

"Now that it's almost 012 and Falco's have stepped it up he seems to have been caught up to/passed by alot of people who seemed behind him or close to even with him."

So i assume we mean players at their present skill level, or what we've seen the latest of them.
I also agree chops did AMAZING, im pretty sure the match is still up as i've watched it alot since then. but of course this was chops living in Florida, not new york(like 99% sure), he's plays much less now and with players constantly getting better, it's hard to say chops will just unrust up and still be top level.

Also that part about kou and the toilet flushing or whatever, im not sure i get your point. your saying bad losses don't count? they are always excusable? i find good players losing a match theyre expected to win is a part of their consistency failing as a player. there is no "doesnt count" unless they are honestly really sick in my opinion. and obv. that wasnt the case for over or Kou. and this wasn't just a rare case, i played kou for like an hour with a buncha other people, i highly doubt i witnessed him playing bad just for that day, i just think he's far below the best falcos, like faaaaaaar.



this example is meh, just because i don't even know if lucky or zhu doubted SS at all. For all I and you(?) know, they considered him to be the best falcon, which would totally flip your point.

and im sure you know this, but falcon vs armada at gen1 was a joke, armada knew nothing about falcon. silentspectre knows it was a fluke. i'd love to see them play now. have you seen the **** armadas done to someone like hax in 2011!?
not too sure about your last point there.
Maybe there is just something wrong with how you (and some others)read what I say. It's possible that you've got an untrue concept of me, my opinion, and how I think branded into your brain and it effects your ability to get what I'm actually saying. *shrugs*

as for the whole bringing up past time.

I think the at this point it's fair to say things like this. The thing about Calle W is he seemed very good compared to Falco's world wide in 08-09. now that it's almost 012 and Falco's have stepped it up he seems to have been caught up to/passed by alot of people who seemed behind him or close to even with him. At one point I would've picked him over Dr.PP back when PP couldn't defeat Jman for example.
This is my original point you can see very clearly what I mean. Somehow you took an obvious exaggeration of 500 seriously....leads me to believe even more so that for some reason you can't seem to understand what I'm saying. Then again some things aren't possible to process over the internet for most.

and as for the example seriously? I don't ****ing what Zhu or Lucky thought but going into pound 4 nobody would pick SS over Armada except maybe a few fanboys. I am only trying to offer a possibly similar relation between how Zhu and Lucky viewed SS and how Diakanos views Sion. How can you not see that? I don't care if it was a fluke or not that wasn't the point of me posting it at all and...well it's evident that Armada is good and Everyone has seen his improvements(especially vs Falcon). Since SOMEHOW you missed it I'll do the same things again.

Hbox(pre genesis). Seen as good not world beater good but very good. He'd had a consistant loosing record against Colbol. Going into Genesis 1 Most were expecting Colbol to really shine especially considering how he'd been doing and looking locally. Hbox ended up having one hell of a performance at Genesis 1 establishing himself among the best players. Even out-placing Colbol by a pretty far margin. Next time they played at a local tournament Colbol rolled and made it looks very easy.

The point since you'll probably miss it again is that Players that play eachother over and over again in local tournaments or friendlies will gain much more extensive knowledge of each other then players they have not played. They know habits, Mentality, Style, Strengths, Weaknesses....etc. SO in a way it's much like the mother of a serial killer. You've seen the interview. "My billy would never do this...he's a sweet boy there is no way he's capable of such a thing". Now Billy's mom knows a good amount about him considering they've been together since he was born however that makes her blind in some sense. When people reach a point when they think they know you in and out, have you mastered in a sense they tend to freeze you mentally at that point. Assuming you can't change or grow from that point on. Clearly didn't recognize his potential or capability for ****ed up ****.

In this case I am saying Diakanos has pretty good insight on Sion but it is possible that he's overlooking Sion's potential or capabilities especially considering he probably feels he's got him as a player mastered to an extent. BTW, Who picked DJN to beat overtriforce? Show of hands?
 

Diakonos

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Spam, I agree with Trahh in saying that the way you post is militant. It just begs for people to pick at (possible) inconsistencies in your argument.

Clearly, playing with each other has an impact on what I think of Sion's skill. I take that into consideration. I also watch how he does against other people, eg. SW. I don't doubt that he could take a set off CW; what I'm saying is that, for whatever reason, CW strikes me as a world-class player, but I don't consider myself or Sion to be quite there. Maybe I'm wrong.

:phone:
 

Archangel

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Spam, I agree with Trahh in saying that the way you post is militant. It just begs for people to pick at (possible) inconsistencies in your argument.

Clearly, playing with each other has an impact on what I think of Sion's skill. I take that into consideration. I also watch how he does against other people, eg. SW. I don't doubt that he could take a set off CW; what I'm saying is that, for whatever reason, CW strikes me as a world-class player, but I don't consider myself or Sion to be quite there. Maybe I'm wrong.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Militant? are you serious? Militant..really? That made my day honestly. Possibly the funniest thing I've read on here(in regards to myself) in a long time.

All I'll say is that the internet really doesn't do justice if words like "bad ***" or "Militant" are used to describe me.

In any case you make a fair point. It's possible that Sion is not world class. It's possible that Calle W could be the highest placing Falco at Genesis 3. It's possible he could 4stock Sion. It is also Possible for him to be lost in Pools. Possible for Sion to outplace him. Possible for him to beat him in a set. Possible for him to place first at Gen3.(nah). There is a Combo Video somewhere that called "impossible is nothing." That pretty much sums melee's scene up.

either way Calle W isn't coming here and probably never will at this rate so farther debating of this is rather pointless. Lets just talk about Ice...and how he's going to **** and be date ***** by the gay smashers here.

on another note...*smacks*

that's for not considering yourself a world-class player.
 

leffen

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see why I didnt wanna compare Calle W to the americans ;D;D;D;D?

also: I believe that Calle W is >Faab, Pepito and Aldwyn but just slightly under my falcos level vs spacies and slightly above in floaties
at beast 2 he lost to Zgetto and Ice (and he has like a 6-0 score vs Hack, who I beat for 4th place), the very same I lost to. Faab, Aldwyn and Pepito would all have lost to these players so comparing there placements is worthless, just like Fuzzyness didn't deserve 13th etc.

Using placements below top 5 is just stupid, whether you place 7th,9th or 17th doesn't make that much difference tbh, it is usually VERY player matchup dependent.

In other words: I'm winning apex and Ice is getting 2nd. Get hype ;D
 

Archangel

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see why I didnt wanna compare Calle W to the americans ;D;D;D;D?

also: I believe that Calle W is >Faab, Pepito and Aldwyn but just slightly under my falcos level vs spacies and slightly above in floaties
at beast 2 he lost to Zgetto and Ice (and he has like a 6-0 score vs Hack, who I beat for 4th place), the very same I lost to. Faab, Aldwyn and Pepito would all have lost to these players so comparing there placements is worthless, just like Fuzzyness didn't deserve 13th etc.

Using placements below top 5 is just stupid, whether you place 7th,9th or 17th doesn't make that much difference tbh, it is usually VERY player matchup dependent.

In other words: I'm winning apex and Ice is getting 2nd. Get hype ;D
So now your mediocre and you're a nationalist/racist too? smh. Can't believe your coming back though...you must have Stockholm syndrome during your time here :). I would like to see you place first but only if you went full yoshi. That way people can have the (Yoshi should be top tier vs Yoshi sucks Leffen is just a very good player.) argument.
 

leffen

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I'm not going all Yoshi because apex has a really really really really REALLY dumb pool system (4 man pools, if I get a sheik then I'm out)
 

Diakonos

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LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Militant? are you serious? Militant..really? That made my day honestly. Possibly the funniest thing I've read on here(in regards to myself) in a long time.

All I'll say is that the internet really doesn't do justice if words like "bad ***" or "Militant" are used to describe me.

In any case you make a fair point. It's possible that Sion is not world class. It's possible that Calle W could be the highest placing Falco at Genesis 3. It's possible he could 4stock Sion. It is also Possible for him to be lost in Pools. Possible for Sion to outplace him. Possible for him to beat him in a set. Possible for him to place first at Gen3.(nah). There is a Combo Video somewhere that called "impossible is nothing." That pretty much sums melee's scene up.

either way Calle W isn't coming here and probably never will at this rate so farther debating of this is rather pointless. Lets just talk about Ice...and how he's going to **** and be date ***** by the gay smashers here.

on another note...*smacks*

that's for not considering yourself a world-class player.
I think... I may have made an impact. Just consider the fact that you are more likely to say a true statement if you preface your opinion with "I think that," or even, "right now I see it this way..."

Especially when you are disagreeing with someone, how you respond to them will either engage or disengage them. It's possible to disagree without getting personal, and it's possible to disagree but still be polite about it. Maybe in person you're like omgg the nicest fellow, but quite often you come across as aggressive in writing.

I also think I'm saying more than "anything is possible." I'm giving what I consider to be probabilities. Sion is pretty good at ****** spacies now, so if his style catches CW off guard I wouldn't be too surprised if he did beat him. But Calle W's innovative playstyle (from what I see of his old youtube videos) and tech skill clearly help him out. And for me, and many other players, this sets him apart. Especially when he's styling on Armada.

Also, I reallyyyy look forward to Ice coming.
 

Archangel

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I think... I may have made an impact. Just consider the fact that you are more likely to say a true statement if you preface your opinion with "I think that," or even, "right now I see it this way..."

Especially when you are disagreeing with someone, how you respond to them will either engage or disengage them. It's possible to disagree without getting personal, and it's possible to disagree but still be polite about it. Maybe in person you're like omgg the nicest fellow, but quite often you come across as aggressive in writing.

I also think I'm saying more than "anything is possible." I'm giving what I consider to be probabilities. Sion is pretty good at ****** spacies now, so if his style catches CW off guard I wouldn't be too surprised if he did beat him. But Calle W's innovative playstyle (from what I see of his old youtube videos) and tech skill clearly help him out. And for me, and many other players, this sets him apart. Especially when he's styling on Armada.

Also, I reallyyyy look forward to Ice coming.
Ask some of the few people who've met me if I am "aggressive". Either way I guess I can see your point. Truth be told I'm not good at conveying information on the internet because....well I never took things that seriously online. I'll add some words that make it easier to make things seem less agressive. It is possible that me mistaking seemingly personal response by certain people over the years are the result of me taking for granted that people can tell the difference between truth, facts, and opinions.
 

Strong Badam

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I think that Ice will place at least 13th at APEX. I can't wait to see how he does personally.
 

Archangel

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I think that Ice will place at least 13th at APEX. I can't wait to see how he does personally.
I'm not sure how the Vs Marth game is in Europe but it seems decent. I can say from experience and from watching that every very good player the US has to offer is familiar with Marth. Local hero Marths or those who have constantly had to stare down M2K in tournament are WELL prepared for Ice. Is he prepared for them is the question that will be answered. I think he'll do pretty good if he's able to make the adjustment to NTSC. If we are lucky he'll do at least that well. I think he'll tie for 5th with Axe.
 
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