Which character has the worst set of kill moves?

[Alus]

Gotta be shiek

remember were talking about a SET of kill moves.

While Sonic's may be harder to land on sheik, the combination of fsmash dsmash bair and uair is worth more than sheiks usmash vanish and other smashes (debatable). Shield camping vs sheik who wants to KO is a decent strategy since if she grabs you, shes only going to force you into the air and without any good aerial finishers, you arent going to get KOd as a result. at least with Sonics case, he has mutiple throws with enough knockback at the right angles to put the enemy into very bad positions where you can be left with no option but to airdodge, hoping the Sonic player doesnt simply bait the AD and KO from it. and his f/d smash remains a very good smash attack for hitting anyone out of landing lag, much better than sheiks options for punishing it.

I agree with this....but for how unspecific the question is...it could be wrong...

Samus can't even land that grab to get you in the air for you to laugh at her lack of aerial finishers.

I believe that Dtilt, Dair,Dsmash, and Utilt is for that...

o wait...thats right...........no aerial kills...****

 

[Red-Blue]

Sonic has GIMPING moves.
GIMPING is also KILLING. Therefore, D-air sweetspot, F-air and even HA are KILLING moves.

F-smash isn't hard to hit with. It's all about mindgames there <_<
I rarely have opponents above 140%

Says the Sonic *****.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Says the Sonic *****.

This thread is full of bias, why don't I join in?

 

[Corrupted]

S Tier
Snake
Wario
Donkey Kong
Game and Watch

A Tier
King Dedede
Fox
Meta Knight
Luigi
Ganondorf

B Tier
Bowser
Ice Climbers
Ike
Mario
Olimar
Kirby
Zelda

C Tier
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Marth
Toon Link
Wolf
Charizard
Pikachu
Lucario
Lucas

D Tier
Diddy Kong
Falco
Pit
Rob
Ness

E Tier
Link
Yoshi
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Sheik
Peach
Falcon

F Tier
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff


Instead of going 'wtf r u ********?!?!' give reasoning towards changes that should be made.

 

[Dragonbreath]

I'm going to go ahead and say that Sonic's got as good killing moves as Peach, if not slightly better. His throws set him up at a good angle for gimping (Dthrow puts them horizontally past the edge, Bthrow into bair, uthrow -> spring -> uair/bair/fair.) That, plus bair stage spikes on Final D and smashville. Peach gets a nice whack out of her usmash and she can gimp offstage with nair, fair and dair. Gimping, of course, is situational, which is why neither of them should be above E tier.

I think Diddy should be a little higher, too. I find myself dsmashing people out 30 seconds in half the time.

 

[Browny]

Instead of going 'wtf r u ********?!?!' give reasoning towards changes that should be made.

Change S through to F tier, those are the most glaringly obvious mistakes at the moment

 

[pacmansays]

S Tier
Snake
Wario
Donkey Kong
Game and Watch

A Tier
King Dedede
Fox
Meta Knight
Ganondorf
Zelda

B Tier
Ice Climbers
Bowser
Ike
Mario
Olimar
Kirby
Luigi

C Tier
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Wolf
Charizard
Pikachu
Lucas
Lucario

D Tier
Marth
Diddy Kong
Falco
Pit
Rob
Ness

E Tier
Yoshi
Ivysaur
Link
Sheik
Peach
Squirtle
Falcon

F Tier
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff


Instead of going 'wtf r u ********?!?!' give reasoning towards changes that should be made.

A few changes

Bowser should be higher, most of his moves do tremendous damage with really only his neutral B and up B not having KO potential

Link should be higher as he has better KO ability than Toon Link but his weight and speed let him down (but this is addressing moves not general tier levels). All his smashes can KO a person

Finally, Wario despite being great is not that good with most of his moves building up damaage rather than KOing the opponent

 

[Shaya]

Corrupted:

A tier list in this regard has to include ability to get the kill.

Zelda and Ganondorf are not A tier in this regard.

Squirtle is not a failure for killing either, dthrow is mostly sufficient; unless you are basing this heavily on fatigue, which the difference should be argued or discussed more intently.

Luigi is one of the best killers in the game (I'd say he's only below characters such as Donkey Kong or Snake [due to not having OOLtimate range])

Toon Link struggles for the kill more than Marth does.

Factoring in aura, Lucario is definitely one of the better killers in the game.

 

[pacmansays]

BTW, quick question with the tier list....What was your methodology behind this list? For it to be a viable list then it has to have some empirical evidence to support it.

For good places to start look at the threads of different moves damage % and how much knockback some have

 

[kozimoto]

pit is pretty darn annoying to kill with i switched mains because bair is rather predictable and fsmash take pretty high percents to actually kill.

if pit had a spike....

i used to be a pit main, i switched for the exact same reason everyones like "he has a godly foward smash that can be used for kill" but thats usually used as the GTFO move when people are close

his dsmash is every easily shielded and leaves him ripe for punishment

and if your opponent doesnt see that back air coming........ all i have to say is you gotta be kidding me.................

 

[PND]

Waitaminute. . . Jiggs has trouble killing? And Jiggs MAINS are saying this?

Lrn2play your character, please. Sweetspot fair kills most medium weights at around 90% near the edge fresh. If you sourspot it, it directly chains in a sweetspot. Dash attack kills around 130% if fresh, although characters with good grab ranges can avoid that one, unless they're in landing lag. Her utilt, that little flick kick, kills at exactly rest % + 50. Usmash kills early, tech chased or roll chased fsmash or rollout kills REALLY early, but those are the only uses of those moves. Hell, her uair can kill if you chain someone to the top half of the screen (after a uthrow and pound, for instance).

The trick is learning to deal with stale moves. And by that, I mean don't approach with fair. Seriously, it's a good kill move, it's a good approach move, but you need to keep it fresh. Everything her fair can do for approaching, her bair can do better. I laugh at the notion of Jiggs being bottom tiered for kill moves.

Seriously, trouble killing? I'm still flabbergasted by the other Jiggs mains claiming this.

 

[Corrupted]

The thing with luigi is that he has a very hard time landing any of his finishers after sheilding a move.
But Yeah Usmash is a lovely anti-air move, dsmash is fast and kills well, fsmash has ridiculous power, nair is frame 2 lol and bair/uair/dair kill too.

Ganon has ridiculous range on a salmon slash fsmash. Usmash is an amazing anti-air move. He should go down though. I was kinda afraid I would get flamed if i hadn't put him in a tier.

Same story for Zelda.

Marth goes up.

Squirtle can keep fair fresh before killing i guess.

kinda iffy on Lucario. Fsmash is slow. Aura Sphere should really be avoided. Uair/dair/bair are the only other killers. Maybe a tad higher.

Toon links usmash OoS /running usmash is beast, uair ***** air dodges. But yeah he should proberbly be a bit lower.

 

[Darkrai Lv.1000]

I'd have to say either Shiek or Meta Knight. Both have quick moves, but they aren't too good at KO-ing anyone, although MK is better at KO-ing in my opinion.

Sonic is one of the characters I mainly use, and I have no problems KO-ing characters. F-Smash and B-air are pretty decent kill moves, and so is D-Smash sometimes.

 

[kingcobra9]

rob should be way higher fsmash, usmash, dair, bair, fair chain, nair, lazer near the edge(sometimes), fully charged gyro(weaker one if off edge) are all very good kill moves and his ability to go way out to gimp someone and be able to come back all make rob a lot easier to ko. it is hard to make all his moves stale.

 

[smashkng]

I think DK is the best killer character: 3 spikes, great ranged and fast finishers and very high capability of early KO. TL has much rouble killing, he is too high. Ganondorf as set of kill moves is one of the best, he deserves that position. Racking damage is not the same as finishing. Ganon often kills in 70s as fsmash is not too slow and has great range.

 

[Matador]

KO tier list

I like Mario's spot, but it's pretty heavily dependent on the matchup too; mainly because his gimp potential drastically fluctuates between characters. Mario can only edgeguard specific characters well, others are much more difficult. Diddy, for example, is a great deal easier to gimp than someone like Sonic who's less affected by Fludd/cape. Therefore, KOing Diddy is much easier than KOing Sonic or someone else he can't gimp, especially since that's where he makes up for any deficiencies in KO moves.

Unless of course you didn't take into account his offstage game...in which case I'll have to go "O_O" at his position.

 

[Fatmanonice]

S Tier
Snake
Wario
Donkey Kong
Game and Watch

A Tier
King Dedede
Fox
Meta Knight
Luigi
Ganondorf

B Tier
Bowser
Ice Climbers
Ike
Mario
Olimar
Kirby
Zelda

C Tier
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Marth
Toon Link
Wolf
Charizard
Pikachu
Lucario
Lucas

D Tier
Diddy Kong
Falco
Pit
Rob
Ness

E Tier
Link
Yoshi
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Sheik
Peach
Falcon

F Tier
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff


Instead of going 'wtf r u ********?!?!' give reasoning towards changes that should be made.

Not to be rude but I absolutely hate when people do this. Basically, you posted something without explaining your reasons for doing so and then tell people to "correct" it.

1. Wario's way too high since his only genuinely dependible KO moves are his waft and uair. His edgeguarding skills are above average but I really wouldn't put any of his aerials above the others to be honest since they all can get the job done.

2. Fox is way too high too. Usmash is his most dependable KO move with bair being in second. His edgeguarding abilities are probably slightly below average with bair, dair, and his reflector being the only moves that can get the job done.

3. Metaknight should be higher based on his edgeguarding abilities alone. It may be somewhat of an exaggeration but dair alone can wreck entire matchups.

4. Olimar should be higher simply because even his throws have decent KO potential which is rare in Brawl. All three of his smash attacks are pretty dependible and so are his fair and bair. His edgeguarding game is below average but his onstage game fully makes up for it.

5. Ganondorf is way too high since actually landing his KO moves can be a chore. He's like Ike in that regard and, also like Ike, his edgeguarding game is slightly below average due to his limited recovery and heavy weight.

Ugh... way too much stuff and I'm not even halfway done; I'll have to come back later...

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I find that to be stupid. Sonic has terrible KO moves, but look at where he's at now. Oh, and before you pounce on me, I know Samus struggles with KOs.

i still love her meteor just as much as i love ganons

 

[Cacti]

Why is Ness so low? He's great at killing; at higher percents, a grab is equal to an instant deatu, and it's not that hard to land his other kill moves such as his bair and uair. Nair can also kill at higher percents and gimp enemies. He should be a lot higher.

Also, Diddy I think is too low too. Although his moves don't kill until higher percents, he can easily do things that lead up to them; he's pretty good at building up damage too.

 

[PND]

I like Mario's spot, but it's pretty heavily dependent on the matchup too; mainly because his gimp potential drastically fluctuates between characters. Mario can only edgeguard specific characters well, others are much more difficult. Diddy, for example, is a great deal easier to gimp than someone like Sonic who's less affected by Fludd/cape. Therefore, KOing Diddy is much easier than KOing Sonic or someone else he can't gimp, especially since that's where he makes up for any deficiencies in KO moves.

Unless of course you didn't take into account his offstage game...in which case I'll have to go "O_O" at his position.

If edge guarding and gimping is taken into account, why are Metaknight and Jigglypuff so low?

 

[Cacti]

We should put a tier list of killing on the OP that we can discuss and debate.

 

[Lilfut]

We should put a tier list of killing on the OP that we can discuss and debate.

 

[SilverDoc~]

Not to be rude but I absolutely hate when people do this. Basically, you posted something without explaining your reasons for doing so and then tell people to "correct" it.

1. Wario's way too high since his only genuinely dependible KO moves are his waft and uair. His edgeguarding skills are above average but I really wouldn't put any of his aerials above the others to be honest since they all can get the job done.

2. Fox is way too high too. Usmash is his most dependable KO move with bair being in second. His edgeguarding abilities are probably slightly below average with bair, dair, and his reflector being the only moves that can get the job done.

3. Metaknight should be higher based on his edgeguarding abilities alone. It may be somewhat of an exaggeration but dair alone can wreck entire matchups.

4. Olimar should be higher simply because even his throws have decent KO potential which is rare in Brawl. All three of his smash attacks are pretty dependible and so are his fair and bair. His edgeguarding game is below average but his onstage game fully makes up for it.

5. Ganondorf is way too high since actually landing his KO moves can be a chore. He's like Ike in that regard and, also like Ike, his edgeguarding game is slightly below average due to his limited recovery and heavy weight.

Ugh... way too much stuff and I'm not even halfway done; I'll have to come back later...

+ 5000 to this post, my god you're ethics are truly brilliant.

I wish I can point out details like that but I'm too focused on why the hell Metaknight is so low

 

[Arcrandom]

Phale
jiggs may not have many major insta kill from the stage move, but jiggs is plenty easy to kill with, so many people lack the experience with jiggs to call this, If I had to choose anyone I would have to say sonic.

 

[Tien2500]

S Tier
Snake
Wario
Donkey Kong
Game and Watch

A Tier
King Dedede
Fox
Meta Knight
Luigi
Ganondorf

B Tier
Bowser
Ice Climbers
Ike
Mario
Olimar
Kirby
Zelda

C Tier
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Marth
Toon Link
Wolf
Charizard
Pikachu
Lucario
Lucas

D Tier
Diddy Kong
Falco
Pit
Rob
Ness

E Tier
Link
Yoshi
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Sheik
Peach
Falcon

F Tier
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff


Instead of going 'wtf r u ********?!?!' give reasoning towards changes that should be made.

1. Ganondorf too high. If we're going based purely on power Ike should be up there with him. But neither of them can land their kill moves easily.

2. Charizard is better than ZSS at Koing (I main ZSS and second PT focusing on Zard). ZSS's best KO move is side B which gets diminished since its also in most matches her best damage builder and spacing move. Other than that she has to use Dsmash or her aerials which can both be hard to land. Charizard on the other hand has Rock Smash, Usmash, Dtilt, Usmash, Bair, Dthrow and Uthrow and (more situationally) Fsmash, Dsmash, Fly. If we're talking about gimping add Dair and fair.

3. Squirtle is a bit above Ivy. Ivy's power moves can be very hard to land depending on the opponent. Squirtle's grabs are much easier to get and wavedashed Usmash is useful.

4. Kirby/Zelda's KO moves are about as good and easy to hit than Mario.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS's best KO move is side B which gets diminished since its also in most matches her best damage builder and spacing move.

Careful, your "bad player" is showing. Stop talking about the game like it's March 2008.

Zero Suit Samus isn't amazing at killing but she's got several very strong kill moves. Her "strongest" move is down-b kick. Her best kill move is back air. Her most easily landed kill move is forward air. And side b sucks, stop abusing it or you'll get punished. It's a spacing move and a kill move if it happens to be fresh but it's not ZSS' "main" anything.

 

[Thethirdbrother]

I would have to say Fox, because between the move decay and his power level, His highest damage causing move and knockback move is Up-smash. All of his other attacks are low-med powered. Although his speed does still make him a great character.

 

[Fatmanonice]

S Tier
Snake
Wario
Donkey Kong
Game and Watch

A Tier
King Dedede
Fox
Meta Knight
Luigi
Ganondorf

B Tier
Bowser
Ice Climbers
Ike
Mario
Olimar
Kirby
Zelda

C Tier
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Marth
Toon Link
Wolf
Charizard
Pikachu
Lucario
Lucas

D Tier
Diddy Kong
Falco
Pit
Rob
Ness

E Tier
Link
Yoshi
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Sheik
Peach
Falcon

F Tier
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff

Let's see, where was I... I think I'm going to jump around as not to bore myself to death.

1. Jigglypuff shouldn't be at the very bottom. Granted, onstage, she doesn't have that much KO potential because all her Smash attacks are essentially slower and weaker versions of Kirby's with even less range, rest no longer has the punch it used it (plus it's extremelly risky at that), and her throws are average at best but offstage she does a decent job. Fair and bair have a good amount of punch to them and, thanks to her superior jumping abilities, she can follow people decently far off the stage for gimps and recover from dair spikes. If anything, I guess I'd rank her at about the middle of your "E" rank.

2. King Dedede should probably be where you have Wario, to be honest. He's pretty solid when it comes to getting KO's both on and offstage. Onstage, his dtilt and utilt have more punch than some people's smash attacks and, aside from fsmash, his smash attacks aren't that hard to set up. Offstage, bair and fair get the job done and they are made even more effective by King Dedede's awesome recovery. Another thing that should be mentioned that King Dedede's inhale, dthrow, and fthrow do a pretty decent job of getting King Dedede ready to edgeguard. It should also be mentioned that King Dedede has one of the few projectiles that can kill, the gordo, and edgeguarding with waddle dees/doos isn't too hard in some of his matchs ups like against people with tether recoveries.

3. ROB is way too low especially when you consier his edgeguarding abilities are almost as retardedly good as King Dedede's. Overall, I'd probably rate him as the third best character offstage, just barely beating out Kirby. Onstage, his KO potential isn't too shabby either especially since fair, bair, and nair have very little landing lag, the gyro is common place, and his fsmash isn't all that risky as long as you don't use it like a moron.

4. Personally, I'd say that Mario and Luigi are about even KO potential wise. Mario has the superior edgeguarding abilities while Luigi has attacks that KO faster like Nair, fsmash, and the infamous fire punch/surioyuken. Why is Luigi better than Mario then? If you ask me, it mostly has to do with Luigi having better recovery options and better mobility thanks to things like the Luigi tornado because they almost have the exact same standard set ups like using dthrow and utilt to begin strings of attacks. With this all being said, I'd probably move them both to your lower B or upper C rank.

Okay, I lied, I'm bored again so I'll have to come back to this, yet again in another couple of hours.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

1. Sonic - He has Terrible KO moves... Very Weak.

2. Peach - She has a good F-smash but, F-air is slow...

3. Squirtle - He's moves don't have a decent KnockBack to KO.


* I think Ganondorf could be inclued in the S-Tier. C'mon... Look his Smash attacks.

 

[adumbrodeus]

1. Sonic - He has Terrible KO moves... Very Weak.

2. Peach - She has a good F-smash but, F-air is slow...

3. Squirtle - He's moves don't have a decent KnockBack to KO.


* I think Ganondorf could be inclued in the S-Tier. C'mon... Look his Smash attacks.

Try LANDING them, just because you've got powerful moves doesn't mean you can actually kill with them. This coming from a knowledgable member of the Ganon community.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Try LANDING them, just because you've got powerful moves doesn't mean you can actually kill with them. This coming from a knowledgable member of the Ganon community.

Ganondorf's f-tilt is a quick and powerful attack if unstaled. Same with his dash attack. It just needs to be fresh tho.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ganondorf's f-tilt is a quick and powerful attack if unstaled. Same with his dash attack. It just needs to be fresh tho.

10 frame =/= quick.

Top of the metagame it can be shielded on reaction. Same with Marth, f-smash is NOT quick.

Regardless, ftilt is much better for setting up for gimps with uair due to it's awesome angle then outright killing.

Dash attack is useful, but it's generally best out of murder choke, IDA ("instant dash attack", for those who do not frequent the Ganon boards) is a true combo out of murder choke for a lot of characters.

edit: and for a number of actions it also automatically combos for others.

 

[noradseven]

Sonic, I mean that was why people underestimated him for so long because he has so few kill moves.

 

[kingcobra9]

can people not post the entire teir list the dude made and just refer to it...

 

[Fatmanonice]

10 frame =/= quick.

Top of the metagame it can be shielded on reaction. Same with Marth, f-smash is NOT quick.

Regardless, ftilt is much better for setting up for gimps with uair due to it's awesome angle then outright killing.

Dash attack is useful, but it's generally best out of murder choke, IDA ("instant dash attack", for those who do not frequent the Ganon boards) is a true combo out of murder choke for a lot of characters.

edit: and for a number of actions it also automatically combos for others.

This. From what I've seen both from myself and others, Ganondorf's smash attacks are usually best done after quick aerials like bair and uair in order to trick your opponent thanks to their deceptive landing lag. They're too easy to block to if you try to be straight forward with them.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This. From what I've seen both from myself and others, Ganondorf's smash attacks are usually best done after quick aerials like bair and uair in order to trick your opponent thanks to their deceptive landing lag. They're too easy to block to if you try to be straight forward with them.

Also, to punish something really laggy or a prediction.

Aerials, not so much, only if a person is unfamiliar with Ganondorf, (which admittedly is 99.9% of smash players).

 

[Nitrix]

When I think of a character that is incredibly incompetent at scoring kills, I think of Samus and Pit.


Samus has barely any options for KO's, and has a pretty big lack of range when it comes to landing her smashes.

Pit usually has to get characters around 150% before he can do anything . Pit just has a ton of trouble scoring kills.

 

[smashkng]

Ganondorf's edgeguarding game is slightly below average due to his limited recovery and heavy weight.

I disagree this. Ganondorf is a very good edge guarder.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I disagree this. Ganondorf is a very good edge guarder.

Edgeguarding, no. Ledgeguarding, somewhat. Reverse uairs and dairs are decent enough.

 

[Kitamerby]

I believe that Dtilt, Dair,Dsmash, and Utilt is for that...

o wait...thats right...........no aerial kills...****

Holy ****. Utilt kills?

kinda iffy on Lucario. Fsmash is slow. Aura Sphere should really be avoided. Uair/dair/bair are the only other killers. Maybe a tad higher.

Neither Aura Sphere nor Fsmash should be avoided if the Lucario has any knowledge of landing frames whatsoever.


Honestly, Lucario's Fsmash and Aura Sphere alone are better than the entirety of up to around most of mid tier's movesets, and this includes damage racking, spacing, and killing.