What tier does Samus deserve?

[Emblem Lord]

Aerial Combos?

Uhhhhh. After watching those vids of Hylain I have come to two conclusions.

1)His opponents don't airdodge like...EVAR. So this gives the illusion that Samus has alot of aerial combos. I assure you she does not. By the same token he doesn't ***** airdodging either, so he gets hit by alot of crap that he shouldn't be getting hit by.

2)In his matches there were times that the Zair completely missed his opponent. So I'm guessing that the hitbox of the Zair is attached to the spark on the beam. Avoid that and you are good. He had alot of trouble hitting Olimar while rising. So Zair while rising will most likely have trouble hitting short opponents or opponents who crouch low to the ground.


Honestly, from what I know and have seen from the other characters, they all have an answer for this pretty much. Zair is annoying, but it's not unstoppable. And it certianly doesn't make up for Samuss other shortcomings.

It just means she is better at camping. That's it. Nothing more.

Also the Marth that he was facing wasn't that good. No d-tilt. No U-smash or D-smash? Constant SH approach spam? Well, no wonder hylian thinks it's broken, if his opponent does the same thing over and over and Hylian can just predict him. You guys act like Samus will never take a hit. She will. Samus doesn't kill till like 180-210 percent on average. Marth kills at like 130 and he has ALOT of kill options.

So while she is trying to camp Marth and rack up damage, marth can take his time observing and looking for holes and when he get's in there Samus is gonna feel the pain.

I mean from what I'm seeing Marth can just duck the rising Zair and run in. FF Zair is obvious and Marth can SH if I'm not mistaken. FF Zair is only really useful when you retreat to space it from what I am seeing.


At first I was worried about this Zair, but now...I'm just not.

If it belonged to a better character then yeah, it would be pretty broken. But Samus...isn't good.

At least she isn't good from what I have seen of her.

Zair may give a handful of characters trouble. MAYBe. But on the whole it's not a huge threat IMO.

Also WTF@Hylian always saying that if Marth SH's forward Samus can just jump back and Zair?

How would he be able to react instantly to an insta airdodge? I find that hard to believe. Hell if he can react to that then I certainly could dodge, this big blue electric rope that makes this loud BZZZZZZT noise everytime it comes out.

 

[Hylian]

Aerial Combos?

Uhhhhh. After watching those vids of Hylain I have come to two conclusions.

1)His opponents don't airdodge like...EVAR. So this gives the illusion that Samus has alot of aerial combos. I assure you she does not. By the same token he doesn't ***** airdodging either, so he gets hit by alot of crap that he shouldn't be getting hit by.

2)In his matches there were times that the Zair completely missed his opponent. So I'm guessing that the hitbox of the Zair is attached to the spark on the beam. Avoid that and you are good. He had alot of trouble hitting Olimar while rising. So Zair while rising will most likely have trouble hitting short opponents or opponents who crouch low to the ground.


Honestly, from what I know and have seen from the other characters, they all have an answer for this pretty much. Zair is annoying, but it's not unstoppable. And it certianly doesn't make up for Samuss other shortcomings.

It just means she is better at camping. That's it. Nothing more.

Also the Marth that he was facing wasn't that good. No d-tilt. No U-smash or D-smash? Constant SH approach spam? Well, no wonder hylian thinks it's broken, if his opponent does the same thing over and over and Hylian can just predict him. You guys act like Samus will never take a hit. She will. Samus doesn't kill till like 180-210 percent on average. Marth kills at like 130 and he has ALOT of kill options.

So while she is trying to camp Marth and rack up damage, marth can take his time observing and looking for holes and when he get's in there Samus is gonna feel the pain.

I mean from what I'm seeing Marth can just duck the rising Zair and run in. FF Zair is obvious and Marth can SH if I'm not mistaken. FF Zair is only really useful when you retreat to space it from what I am seeing.


At first I was worried about this Zair, but now...I'm just not.

If it belonged to a better character then yeah, it would be pretty broken. But Samus...isn't good.

At least she isn't good from what I have seen of her.

Zair may give a handful of characters trouble. MAYBe. But on the whole it's not a huge threat IMO.

Also WTF@Hylian always saying that if Marth SH's forward Samus can just jump back and Zair?

How would he be able to react instantly to an insta airdodge? I find that hard to believe. Hell if he can react to that then I certainly could dodge, this big blue electric rope that makes this loud BZZZZZZT noise everytime it comes out.

I haven't even uploaded videos of me using zair properly lol. Also, do you even have the game or play it? I'm starting to think not if you think you can duck samus's zair with marth lol. And I tested it out. Samus's dtilt outranges all of marths moves BY FAR except for shieldbreaker. But shieldbreaker is really really easy to dodge.


Everything I say is based off of experience. It seems like everything you say is based off speculation, which leads me to not even listen to you because I have already speculated everything you are saying and tested it out.

And you say he his bad because he doesn't use dsmash upsmash or dtilt? wtf? Dtilt is useless against samus. I would be amazed if a marth could hit me with one. He does use upsmash out of shield. but not against samus because I am never on his sheild.


Believe what you want to. I was never even arguing with you. Just telling you my experiences with the match-up and how I view it. And I have played the match-up out with different people. and many many times. I don't know why you are so determined to prove me wrong. When I lose to a marth in tournament I will tell you. But the you will probably just say they were inexperienced because brawl is new.

Guess what? We are all inexperienced. We are all bad at this game. I have played brawl more then 99.9% of smashboards and I still know I suck compared to how we will be playing in a year. I look for things constantly to improve myself, and post them online to see how other people react.

And you keep praising airdodging to be godlike. It't not. Get over it. It's easily punishable and you can't just airdodge to airdodge to airdodge..there is start up and wind down time. How much have you seriously played brawl? And samus can only do like 1 or two airdodges before she hits the ground, and when she does she is vunurable. I would rather just set up a zair or upB out of shield. And when you are airdodging, you won't be attacking and you will be leaving yourself open to your own momentum.


You act like I don't even know how to airdodge, or do other things. I'm sorry not everyone in the world thinks exactly like you and plays like you want them to. I have already messed around with it a ton, and I prefer to just attack instead, because since stun time is so low you can just counterhit someone, rather then falling past them slowly not being able to do anything.

 

[Xyro77]

Air dodge is not good in this game unless you have multiple jumps.......

2ndly, hylians samus is one of the 1st examples of how a ssbb samus should play. Yes he needs more exp and practice but the game has only been out for a month so he can only do so much.

Im worried about the smaller characters like diddy and olimar and pika.....ect. they seem to get under the Zair and the missles. this MIGHT be a problem.

BUT!

With the "dash canceling" video thing that Rohins made. This will open samus up to a great many things. If people learn to do it fast enough, its the replacement for WD.

EDIT: Hylian, so does this mean you main samus now?!?!?!?!? When u told me u moved n to fox in melee it made me sad.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Of course I have played the game.

Anyway, I'm not arguing with you.

Just the way you tlak makes it sound like you will ALWAYS know what to do to counter a characters approach. This just isn't true.

Airdodge is god-like and let's you get out of alot of combos. The start-up time is pretty much instant. I'm thinking no more then 3 frames. Might be more but I doubt it. I have seen vids of you playing people and doing 2 Uairs to w/e. That shouldn't be comboing. I can tell just from looking at it. If someone is pretty much on top of you and you can't beat thier attack with one of yours then yes, you need to airdodge.

Why is d-tilt useless against her? It's one of his best moves. Is it useless because she out ranges it? Then by that logic wouldn't 99% of his movelist be useless against her? This isn't the case of course so pleas elaborate.

Ducking the Zair isn't the only thing I was thinking of. All I'm going by is the vids in which the Marth player only tried to approach in one way really. He used SH's alot and you punished it.

I'm not out to prove anyone wrong. I'm out to understand this game's meta and the tools each character possesses. But to make blatant claims like such and such character is unstoppable because of one move is pretty ridiculous IMO.

Do I want to find out ways to counter the Zair?

Well, duh. I don't want any one character to dominate the Metagame and that goes for Marth too. You can bet your *** that if he had some broken strat I would research my *** off to try to find ways around it.

I just wanna understand the game is all.

For the record Zair does look awesome and I'm not deluding myself. I just don't think it makes Samus go from Low tier to Top tier. I mean, that's quite a leap don't you think?

 

[Xyro77]

Samus wont be top. if anything. she will be lower than she was in melee game. HugS is gonna main ROB....i saw his post.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean to be honest, I got no problem helping another character forum advance their meta.

Zair has potential.

But like I said different characters have different answers.

Like Olimar for example. Rising Zair seems pretty ineffective. So mix that with FF Zair and lots of homing missile cancelling. One thing I was thinking about is that maybe Samus could do sH homing missile to falling Zair? Hylian would have to test that I guess.

Anyway Zair spam alone does nothing. I think the true potential of Zair is when it's mixed in with her other options. SH double homing missile then SH Zair. Or SH Zair combined with tilts to mess with your opponents spacing/timing.

Also does Zair only hit on the way out and is the hitbox only located on the spark?

 

[Gum]

Of course I have played the game.

Anyway, I'm not arguing with you.

Just the way you tlak makes it sound like you will ALWAYS know what to do to counter a characters approach. This just isn't true.

Airdodge is god-like and let's you get out of alot of combos. The start-up time is pretty much instant. I'm thinking no more then 3 frames. Might be more but I doubt it. I have seen vids of you playing people and doing 2 Uairs to w/e. That shouldn't be comboing. I can tell just from looking at it. If someone is pretty much on top of you and you can't beat thier attack with one of yours then yes, you need to airdodge.

Why is d-tilt useless against her? It's one of his best moves. Is it useless because she out ranges it? Then by that logic wouldn't 99% of his movelist be useless against her? This isn't the case of course so pleas elaborate.

Ducking the Zair isn't the only thing I was thinking of. All I'm going by is the vids in which the Marth player only tried to approach in one way really. He used SH's alot and you punished it.

I'm not out to prove anyone wrong. I'm out to understand this game's meta and the tools each character possesses. But to make blatant claims like such and such character is unstoppable because of one move is pretty ridiculous IMO.

Do I want to find out ways to counter the Zair?

Well, duh. I don't want any one character to dominate the Metagame and that goes for Marth too. You can bet your *** that if he had some broken strat I would research my *** off to try to find ways around it.

I just wanna understand the game is all.

For the record Zair does look awesome and I'm not deluding myself. I just don't think it makes Samus go from Low tier to Top tier. I mean, that's quite a leap don't you think?

Valid points indeed sir, but i actually think it DOES boost her tier position by quite a bit. consider this: Shine is melee was a very dynamic move. It wasnt broken because it could kill. It was broken because it had knockback, priority, good hit stun, and could be used by fox in a variety of different situations, not just offensively. Zair is just that for Samus. In brawl, her grapple has knockback, good hit stun, really good priority, crazy range, has zero landing lag, and can cancel into another zair or any of her other moves. My philosophy has always been "dont nerf good characters, just make the other characters better" and this is a fine example of just that. Zair has not only given her a viable defense against your high priorty sword users, but also a very effective approace. Now all there is to do is perfect the technique of using it, and Samus could very well be pulled into top tier range. Is it unstoppable? No. obviousley not. It is however a very dynamic move that will definitely give her an edge in the metagame.

 

[Emblem Lord]

But Fox was still solid even without Shine.

Samus without Zair is low/bottom tier pretty much.

At least from what I have seen.

 

[Eten]

Samus is heavy. She takes the damage % pretty well, w/ no lack of recovery. Brawl is simply *not* a game full of combos so we can't complain there- DI and airdodge and generally reduced hitstun lengths makes this a universal trait. However even if we don't call them "combos" she does manage to string hits together even on good opponents because she does have little lag and quick aerials and a good set of moves w/ range. If you pay attention she has no trouble racking up the damage very quickly if you compare to even the most popular characters.

The moves she has for KOs is limited compared to some. However, I feel this is actually exaggerated at this point of the game- on one effect many of us carry over the "mastered" low % KOs from melee, skewing what we percieve all across the board for brawl, and another effect is the fact that it is obvious that even the best of us are far from mastered good KO execution. But she still has clear, effective KO moves to begin with that compare to the KO moves of many many other characters.

Fsmash- It's either used too early and people bring in Diminishing returns on themselves, or they don't use it. But it has it's melee power on KO, and if you remember w/o bias it was indeed an important killing move for her.
Uptilt- This *does* have more knockback OR it has knockback at a better trajectory than it's melee version. This is significant, imho anyone interested in Samus should get used to hitting people with this at ~110%(after the hit?) to prevent dragging their KOs out to 200%n
Bair- We all know this. Harder to sweet spot, and you can't bring in dimishing returns on it's knockback until you're ready for the KO. Only a few characters really have super strong aerial KO moves left which is one of the things that skews our perception of the ability to KO so much.(See luigi as an example, both fair and downair just don't have the power they used to. Or Falcon w/ his knee- harder to sweet spot and won't KO at the same %)
Charge shot- U use da charge shot to KO ppl.

In summary that is to say her inability to KO is an attribute that is being exaggerated out of proportion. Since almost nobody has any real combos into KO moves in brawl, she has all the characteristics of a high tier character with her ability to control the pacing of the fight through Zair and missile spam, the ability to rack up the damage quickly, being harder to KO w/ her weight and recovery, and finally even with a few advanced techniques like the wavesmashing which overcomes her problem of slow startup and ending on her dash for short distances.

If you think to yourself, if she had her old sex kick she'd be a god. Well, she doesn't have it so she's just a little less than god.

@Emblem Lord
Remember how important wavedashing was in melee.
Especially vs. characters like marth. Because with his range trying to jump at him as an approach just got you owned?
Well nobody can wavedash anymore. And Zair is one of the most spammable, fast and long ranged effective moves out there. "Don't taze me bro" is going to either be a name of a combo vid or thread title or popular complaint against Samus very soon.

 

[Emblem Lord]

My goodness why do people call them combos vids anymore?

That makes no sense. Just call them gameplay vids or something.

Also there are still things to take note of with the Zair.

An opponent could shield it then drop the shield and close in. Samus being in the air means she has to hit the ground before doing anything. From there it's a guessing game. But she can roll if she wants to stay safe and cover alot of her opponents options. Or do a jab combo to interrupt an approach.

Plus there is the issue of projectile campers or people who can crawl.

Those two types of opponents will have the least amount of trouble with Zair IMO.

 

[Hylian]

My goodness why do people call them combos vids anymore?

That makes no sense. Just call them gameplay vids or something.

Also there are still things to take note of with the Zair.

An opponent could shield it then drop the shield and close in. Samus being in the air means she has to hit the ground before doing anything. From there it's a guessing game. But she can roll if she wants to stay safe and cover alot of her opponents options. Or do a jab combo to interrupt an approach.

Plus there is the issue of projectile campers or people who can crawl.

Those two types of opponents will have the least amount of trouble with Zair IMO.

This is soooo true. I have had a lot of trouble trying to hit crawling squirtles with zair. Olimar isn't actually that hard for me strangly though. One of my friends plays olimar, and he destroys all of my other characters (If you haven't seen my GW...it's pretty beastly lol) really badly, but when I play him with samus its...really easy lol. Grapple kills the pikimin when they are thrown at you AND hits olimar.


Also, while it is hard to hit short people, if you just practice a lot it becomes really easy.


About the shield dropping...That doesn't really work. That was one of the first things we tried, and what I did was zair to grab. The zair hit's their shield, then they get grabbed like 4 frames later lol. You could ppwershield to spotdodge this however.


Also emblem lord...really think hard about this move. I am finding really good combos with it. For example, Zair --> Chargeshot ---> Grab.

The Zair has great stun time and allows you to combo into any move if you are close, and the chargeshot, while not killing this time around, DOES do a lot of damage, and has so much stun time that you can shoot someoen at 0, then grab them easily while they are stunned. This is a great damage builder.

Also, samus's dtilt kills at around 120%. And zair to dtilt is very very easy to hit because the dtilt comes out very fast and has immense range and priority. Also, samus has no lag on any of her moves. They ALL auto cancel in the air. That is amazing. Effectivly, Shield grabbing won't work against her..


It's not just the zair that makes me believe samus is a really good character, it's that she has an amazing approach and defense, no lag on almost any of her moves, great start up time and priority on most of her moves, the best range in the game almost, multihit moves that rack up damage fast, and a decent kill setip as well as amazing edgeguarding.


I hope to play you some time .

 

[VersatileBJN]

EMBLEM LORD

It'd be nice if you replied to your PM in between dropping knowledge on people : )

Good analysis by the way. I appreciate your analytical thinking.

 

[HugS]

Zair is great and all, but I don't think any one character can handle a whole cast anymore. Most people will have to pick up at least 2 mains from the way things are looking.

 

[Hylian]

Zair is great and all, but I don't think any one character can handle a whole cast anymore. Most people will have to pick up at least 2 mains from the way things are looking.

This is true.


I find zelda destroys samus haha. I can't get around her dins fire .

 

[k4polo]

Samus is heavy. She takes the damage % pretty well, w/ no lack of recovery. Brawl is simply *not* a game full of combos so we can't complain there- DI and airdodge and generally reduced hitstun lengths makes this a universal trait. However even if we don't call them "combos" she does manage to string hits together even on good opponents because she does have little lag and quick aerials and a good set of moves w/ range. If you pay attention she has no trouble racking up the damage very quickly if you compare to even the most popular characters.

The moves she has for KOs is limited compared to some. However, I feel this is actually exaggerated at this point of the game- on one effect many of us carry over the "mastered" low % KOs from melee, skewing what we percieve all across the board for brawl, and another effect is the fact that it is obvious that even the best of us are far from mastered good KO execution. But she still has clear, effective KO moves to begin with that compare to the KO moves of many many other characters.

Fsmash- It's either used too early and people bring in Diminishing returns on themselves, or they don't use it. But it has it's melee power on KO, and if you remember w/o bias it was indeed an important killing move for her.
Uptilt- This *does* have more knockback OR it has knockback at a better trajectory than it's melee version. This is significant, imho anyone interested in Samus should get used to hitting people with this at ~110%(after the hit?) to prevent dragging their KOs out to 200%n
Bair- We all know this. Harder to sweet spot, and you can't bring in dimishing returns on it's knockback until you're ready for the KO. Only a few characters really have super strong aerial KO moves left which is one of the things that skews our perception of the ability to KO so much.(See luigi as an example, both fair and downair just don't have the power they used to. Or Falcon w/ his knee- harder to sweet spot and won't KO at the same %)
Charge shot- U use da charge shot to KO ppl.

In summary that is to say her inability to KO is an attribute that is being exaggerated out of proportion. Since almost nobody has any real combos into KO moves in brawl, she has all the characteristics of a high tier character with her ability to control the pacing of the fight through Zair and missile spam, the ability to rack up the damage quickly, being harder to KO w/ her weight and recovery, and finally even with a few advanced techniques like the wavesmashing which overcomes her problem of slow startup and ending on her dash for short distances.

If you think to yourself, if she had her old sex kick she'd be a god. Well, she doesn't have it so she's just a little less than god.

@Emblem Lord
Remember how important wavedashing was in melee.
Especially vs. characters like marth. Because with his range trying to jump at him as an approach just got you owned?
Well nobody can wavedash anymore. And Zair is one of the most spammable, fast and long ranged effective moves out there. "Don't taze me bro" is going to either be a name of a combo vid or thread title or popular complaint against Samus very soon.

This is kinda funny though. As on a lot of other character boards, you have other people explaining their reason for their character being top tier and claiming they are top tier.

Check out Pikmin and Olimar, Wario, and Diddy boards. I personally think her(Samus) lack speed which drop her from high/top tier but it is my opinion.

One thing is for sure though. The tiers for this game will be rather interesting.

 

[Eten]

This is kinda funny though. As on a lot of other character boards, you have other people explaining their reason for their character being top tier and claiming they are top tier.

Check out Pikmin and Olimar, Wario, and Diddy boards. I personally think her(Samus) lack speed which drop her from high/top tier but it is my opinion.

One thing is for sure though. The tiers for this game will be rather interesting.

Right. I actually read through all the character boards reading those ideas before I added my own experience and compiled a relative strength/weakness, specifically aiming to not look at samus in a before-after mindset from melee to brawl but in only brawl context.

The things that stood out universally- There is a bit of everyone both ready to say a character is either horrible or top tier. The most common complaint is the ability to KO effectively. A high % of the "melee pros" are intermixed between characters, all with a ground in the complaint that x character or y character won't make it due to the lack of combos. The basic argument between those with different opinions on who will be doing the best, say, for Diddy or Olimar, is the way they can "control" or "pace" the fight with things like Banana peels or pikmin throw spam vs. Metaknight or Marth who are simply quick and lack laggy moves(basically anything that was like melee fox).

I've got a suspicion that the "tier" list is going to be much more flexible this time around. All SSB games are so good and unique in their universal element that they are simply so dynamic w/ things like DI. At a moderate skill level in the past two games combos were limited. It wasn't until at a higher skill level that you would more or less circumnavigate previous limitations to the point you can generate inescapable combos. Most of these were done through what many people would call exploits(and I would say so too as long as you don't take this as a negative thing).

Well, Brawl is simply designed a bit more soundly, leaving much less to exploit, and increased the effect of DI and decreased hitstun in general make true combos even rarer. Then in competitive game theory(I spend a lot of time on this in my free time, from RTS to FPS to TBS to Fighting games) to sum it up, that emphasis on the games dynamic nature and increased player action-related escape of "combos" creates a larger range of effectiveness based on player real-time input and decision making(should I lump this general thing in with the frequently used term "mindgames"?) and thus individual player skill is going to matter much more than which character you're piloting at the moment. (this is related to the same reasons why Starcraft is so incredibly balanced btw. My suspicion is that basically brawl is going to be considered pretty solid on character balance.)

And, incredibly, Sakurai seems to have done it with a lower need for technical skill, which is actually contrary to the usual swing of things. I applaud him for that. Of course it is still there, if you could powershield reflect every projectile it still makes a difference, but what is going to make good players good in this game is going to be very subtle indeed.

Anyway despite all of that I still have to champion Samus because I'm a huge metroid fan boy and I foam at the mouth and have to start arguing that Samus is better in general.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

However, in a game where knockback diminishes and percentages soar beyond what we are used to, the most needed ability is her greatest downfall:
KO ability.

Her KO moves are few, and their applications are very limited. The lack of stun in this game makes it extremely difficult to set up opponents into these already "Hard to land" moves. I don't understand how developers would see past this. I'm hoping that with new releases of this game, they will patch up the knockback on samus's moves.

HugS, you forgot that dash-canceling is gone, so you can't even run up to people and D-tilt/D-smash/F-tilt/F-smash them anymore.

Also, Samus has lost one of her most important weapons: The Crouch Cancel.

I know both posts are slightly old and HugS has stated that he has changed his opinion but I still wanted to point out (for the sake of info) that for spacing and move set ups both foxtrotting(maybe? Haven't heard how well it works with Samus) and shield dashing can play the part. Not to mention they are good for mindgames

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142139

 

[HugS]

This is true.


I find zelda destroys samus haha. I can't get around her dins fire .

Well I was leaning more along the lines of small oddball characters.

 

[Phazon_Dude]

Holy macro Radiationman, since when did tiers storm the sea thus know as Brawl; a Samus Aran Bibliography? Also, I say she will make AT LEAST mid tier... but then again I would have put Samus at top tier in Melee

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hylian I have new questions.

Well you said Marth can't really duck the Zair right?

Well, who can? Also when you Zair right after a SH will it always hit most crouching opponents?

Also it seems like others can Zair as well.

Like Toon Link. -_________-

****ing broken *** Toon Link.

Anyway I look forward to studying the Zair, if only because it represents a wall for me to overcome as a Marth player.

Marth is shaping up to be a pretty braindead top tier that required little to no thinking to win.

But with this Zair obstacle in the way I...hehe

NOW I'M MOTIVATED!!!!

 

[Eten]

Well, like
uh.
A crouching Kirby comes to mind. That's just obnoxious. Pikachu. **** those small guys are annoying. Snake's got a crazy crawl, that sort of thing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hylian should have those vids posted where he uses Zair more effectively so I can analyze it.

>_>

 

[Doomgaze]

I know for a fact you can't zair some crouching enemies (Snake). At least I can't.

And the other characters' zair, aren't that good (TL, Link).

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

hylian has videos in the samus video thread...like 10 of them...

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

I know for a fact you can't zair some crouching enemies (Snake). At least I can't.

And the other characters' zair, aren't that good (TL).

 

[VVayfarer]

And the other characters' zair, aren't that good (TL, Link).

Yeah, you just keep telling yourself that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I know you can Zair some crouching enemies.

My very specific question is that can crouching enemies be Zaired while RISING.

It seems harder to do from what I'm seeing.

I mean this is importnant to me too, since I plan on playing like...everybody in the game at some point or another.

Why wouldn't it be that great with Toon Link?

Because it has less range or something?

 

[jwj442]

Does Ike have the same problems as Marth with Samus? I think Quick Draw and perhaps the eruption super armor could help with his approaching issues, but I haven't played the game, so I don't really know.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would imagine they have the same problem, though Quick Draw may help Ike somewhat.

Anyone that doesn't have a projectile or a low Crawl will have to be more cautious and play smarter then say someone like Snake who can crawl low, has grenades and has some great close range tools as well.

I'd imagine Snake giving Samus trouble.

 

[Greenmonstah88]

she has a lot better recovery time, and landing lag is nil. Which is pretty big. The missing KO move is important, but maybe as hugs says, we should not be comparing her to melee. One thing i did notice however, is that she has some of the N64 samus aspects. her dair spike has reverted to the n64 spike, with virtually no delay. it makes the move that much more devastating, if easier to master.

 

[jwj442]

Hylian, here's what Irow said in another thread:

Hylian is underestimating Marth's full jump approach, as well as a rising air dodge - to fair.

If a Samus were to try to uair or up b a Marth's full jump, you could just DI back and fair/nair it. You could counter it, you could even dair it.

Zair is amazing, I know. But it's not the overlord of all aerials. I'll put money on that.

When the scene settles in America, I'll gladly MM anyone who want to disprove me.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4034602&postcount=6

Thoughts?

 

[nitro_rev]

it might be hard to tell because of her transformation, but I am guessing maybe... middle-high

 

[Hylian]

Sorry I haven't been on guys. I will respond to stuff later.


Right now I am editing all those videos that you guys want up . Expect them up by tomorrow.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Holy ****.

Dude.

I thought you died. Cuz like you are never on and stuff.

>_>

 

[Hylian]

Holy ****.

Dude.

I thought you died. Cuz like you are never on and stuff.

>_>

I am not on much on the weekends. I actually don't have a computer, and just use my roommates while he is at work lol. I borrowed my friends computer, and I am editing craploads of videos right now. I will start uploading them tonight.

 

[Wildfire393]

After some more brawl experience, I'm going to have to agree with my original assessment that Samus will be fairly low on the tier list. However, it is not for the reasons I originally said. All these Zair and Homing Missile tricks are well and good. Except against Pit. Pit currently looks to be a contender for high tier, and his arrows simple ANNIHILATE any shred of defense these strategies afford Samus. Maybe he will remain mid tier as a counterpick to Marth, who also appears as a contender for the top tiers, but as it stands, his game against Pit is just so bad.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Samus is a woman.

>_>

 

[Gum]

After some more brawl experience, I'm going to have to agree with my original assessment that Samus will be fairly low on the tier list. However, it is not for the reasons I originally said. All these Zair and Homing Missile tricks are well and good. Except against Pit. Pit currently looks to be a contender for high tier, and his arrows simple ANNIHILATE any shred of defense these strategies afford Samus. Maybe he will remain mid tier as a counterpick to Marth, who also appears as a contender for the top tiers, but as it stands, his game against Pit is just so bad.

fortunately, her uncharged shots eat arrows.

 

[Wildfire393]

Samus is a woman.

>_>

I knew that. Nurrr. Stupid me.

fortunately, her uncharged shots eat arrows.

Unfortunately, pit can fire arrows about twice as fast as her uncharged shots.

 

[Gum]

Unfortunately, pit can fire arrows about twice as fast as her uncharged shots.

hmm. it doesnt matter. her shots come out just fast enough to kill the arrows right before they reach her. fact.