What tier does Samus deserve?

[XSilvenX]

I want to know everyone's opinions on this, even the ones who haven't played the game.

A few rules though, if you haven't played the game against other people you have to make note of that in your reasoning.


I'm gonna have to go ahead and say LOW - MID.... FOR NOW. At this point I just don't see how she can be high tier with the way she plays. . And this is after coming back from a smashfest with alot of talented NYC players so it's not like I'm going off on a whim here. I would go into very very detailed reasons but you would just say I'm whining so why bother. Anyway, I hope to hear from others who've played the game .

 

[Rohins]

Right now I haven't played against enough people / characters to get a really good idea of tier listing. From what I've played though, it feels everyone is pretty balanced and has a good set of strengths and weaknesses.

I feel Samus' main weakness in Brawl is the lack of a good KO move from the stage. I think she does have good moves and set ups for gimps though. There are just so many tools to work with between her missiles, grapples, and aerials.

I can't say what kind of tier list material she is, but I see potential with her edge guarding meta game.

 

[Dais]

Have not played the game, But from all the vids I've studied she probably will be upper-mid tier (similar to Melee). They changed some stuff but she in no way is ruined or anything. Samus has so many options on how to go about fighting: Projectiles, extended grapples, wierd timing etc. that it's hard to place her in any tier for sure.
And don't forget, its not just about how good or bad Samus may be, but how she combats the Top Tier characters. Fast characters are always a handful, and other characters may just be crazy-good or broken or just good at countering Samus.
There are a ton of factors to think about. I'm one of those people that will main her no matter what, just because I've been blowing Metroids out since 1987. Also it's way easier to bring a mid-tier character up and master them than a low-tier character, so people shouldn't get too discouraged. If your that disloyal to Samus (and wouldn't play as her because it might be too hard to win with her) than you shouldn't play as her anyway.

 

[HugS]

If your that disloyal to Samus (and wouldn't play as her because it might be too hard to win with her) than you shouldn't play as her anyway.

What if winning with samus used to get you lots of money? And what if now all the hard work you put into her just ends up losing you lots of money?

I'm not saying I won't main her, but I'm just pointing out that there's more than Fun at stake for some people.

As far as brawl goes, she has an upper hand in the following categories:
1. Comboability
2. Spacing
3. Landing Lag (She has none)
4. Recovery

However, in a game where knockback diminishes and percentages soar beyond what we are used to, the most needed ability is her greatest downfall:
KO ability.

Her KO moves are few, and their applications are very limited. The lack of stun in this game makes it extremely difficult to set up opponents into these already "Hard to land" moves. I don't understand how developers would see past this. I'm hoping that with new releases of this game, they will patch up the knockback on samus's moves.

Problems:
1. How are you going to make missiles slower AND weaker. Good thinking.
2. If you are going to make a move last as long as her Nair does, why give it so little knockback?
3. Fsmashes, dtilts, and dsmashes kill at decent percentage, but without wavedashing, you'd be hard pressed to land any of these attacks on skilled opponents who don't make mistakes.

The only solution I can think of is to become adept at racking up damage to 200+ with increased defenses. Or we must figure out ways to gimp our opponents in a game that has auto sweet spots, amazing recoveries, invulnerable air dodges, and invulnerable up B's. Good luck.

Why can't samus players ever get it easy? Just like in melee, we'll have to work harder than our opponents will. Shame.

IMO she'll be mid tier, possibly high, possibly low.

 

[Dais]

Pardon me for not thinking about the 10 people that make money at Smash Bros, Mr. HugS. I do get what your saying. It's just my viewpoint that people should tuff it out and put work into their favorite characters (as you have done with Samus) to make the game more fun and interesting. Instead of just Foxes and Marths (kinda like selling out ...). You must be a fan of Samus to be playing as her in the first place.
You sound fairly disappointed with Samus in Brawl. I'll admit to being let down about her Nair as a weak arial and the missles being toned down as well. I'm just hoping that her "upper hands" can make up for her short comings. Also, more charaters seem to have her problem with KO moves. I've read people gripe about MetaKnight, Pit and Sonic having to work for KO's. Well, I guess that's what will make her mid-tier, not being the best but not being the worst.
I can't factor in the whole decreasing knockback thing until I fool around with it myself. You would be screwed if you weakened your FSmash right before you needed it to get rid of a damaged opponent. Being forced to not use your best moves is not a good thing.

 

[Yuna]

HugS, you forgot that dash-canceling is gone, so you can't even run up to people and D-tilt/D-smash/F-tilt/F-smash them anymore.

Also, Samus has lost one of her most important weapons: The Crouch Cancel.

 

[Ryan-K]

HugS, you forgot that dash-canceling is gone, so you can't even run up to people and D-tilt/D-smash/F-tilt/F-smash them anymore.

Also, Samus has lost one of her most important weapons: The Crouch Cancel.

Yes you can still dash cancel, you cancel with your shield. You can release the shield so fast you cant even see it and letting down the shield is practically instant.

 

[GotACoolName]

I cannot believe that Samus will be high/top this time around. She just has too few kill moves and not enough comboing options. But though she won't be the best, I also cannot believe she'll be anywhere near the worst. She lacks some key necessities, but she still has a lot going for her. She's still got missile spamming and grapple spamming, great aerial maneuverability, and pretty nice range. Some great discoveries have already been made, and the game is hardly even out yet. I think she'll be somewhere in the middle. But who knows; there's probably still a ton of things yet to be learned, so it's too early to make accurate judgments.

 

[XSilvenX]

Pardon me for not thinking about the 10 people that make money at Smash Bros, Mr. HugS. I do get what your saying. It's just my viewpoint that people should tuff it out and put work into their favorite characters (as you have done with Samus) to make the game more fun and interesting. Instead of just Foxes and Marths (kinda like selling out ...). You must be a fan of Samus to be playing as her in the first place.
You sound fairly disappointed with Samus in Brawl. I'll admit to being let down about her Nair as a weak arial and the missles being toned down as well. I'm just hoping that her "upper hands" can make up for her short comings. Also, more charaters seem to have her problem with KO moves. I've read people gripe about MetaKnight, Pit and Sonic having to work for KO's. Well, I guess that's what will make her mid-tier, not being the best but not being the worst.
I can't factor in the whole decreasing knockback thing until I fool around with it myself. You would be screwed if you weakened your FSmash right before you needed it to get rid of a damaged opponent. Being forced to not use your best moves is not a good thing.

People gripe about getting kills with PIT?!!?! Are you serious?! I play against a Pit player almost every night who fricken kills me with dash attacks..... by accident..not like he means for it to kill. Come on now. He can kill with up air, down air, fair, bair, f smash and up smash...and that's just the beginning. I can't take the guy seriously who says it's hard to KO with Pit. It's so easy that you'll press "A" and your opponent will just die...

After being ***** by every character that ISN'T samus today I'm changing my first post....

 

[Dew Rag]

Pit does not have to work for ko's in my opinion

i'm with silven on this one lol, fking arrow spam and then he can do whatever attack and he wins... i can never beat my friends that use Pit against Samus, i think i've only accomplished this never, one thing that is good about this match up is that samus can short hop missile and hit Pit even if his shield is out, but that's about it.... : (

also wolf sucks to fight against also, fking laser and his moves overpower everything a lot, even though it is dooable, it's hard

Samus in my op is probably low tier or mid low, i think the only reason samus will end up higher is the number of people willing to play her lol and her big fanbase, though many have moved to zss, who sucks more than samus in my op, cuz i can't kill unless it's a gimp with zss

 

[kunai_abuser]

If I say top tier will the speculation end?...

But on a serious note, I suppose I'd go with middle again.

 

[Pi]

I'm not sure how diminishing KB and % works, but does it only diminish if you hit with it? If so why not save her kill moves for higher %'s to lower diminishing? Do it when you have a very high % to kill.


And yea I definitely agree with having to work harder than your opponents...

Samus in my op is probably low tier or mid low, i think the only reason samus will end up higher is the number of people willing to play her lol and her big fanbase, though many have moved to zss, who sucks more than samus in my op, cuz i can't kill unless it's a gimp with zss

I think your right. We have so many dedicated Samus players, people like hugs and phanna and rohins are always playing Samus and finding new combos. I really don't think the dedicated samus player will have it any worse than in melee.

And no matter how low she is, it will just be more cool when you stop everyone with her!

 

[W.Jr]

from what i seen, cause i haven't played the game, i say samus would be mid tier again.

 

[0RLY]

So far, Samus has seen a serious nerf. The only advantage she has gained is the grapple. A lot of ssbb plays the game for you now. Especially with auto sweetspots and self comboing attacks. Samus was a character that required skill to play in melee because of all the "tricks" she was capable of. I said tricks instead of techniques because not all the moves she performs are techniques, most are mindgames.

Because I'm a melee veteran (as well as many of us in swf), we see all of these "flaws" as nerfs. If we pretend Samus was a completely new character (like Pit and MK), we would probably be talking all about the potential she has. What I'm trying to say is, let go of melee for a moment and try to embrace the new Samus as she compares to the other 34 (38) characters. Don't think of her as worse than before, after all Fox has the most serious nerf, but imagine what she can accomplish with practice and time.

 

[HugS]

So far, Samus has seen a serious nerf. The only advantage she has gained is the grapple. A lot of ssbb plays the game for you now. Especially with auto sweetspots and self comboing attacks. Samus was a character that required skill to play in melee because of all the "tricks" she was capable of. I said tricks instead of techniques because not all the moves she performs are techniques, most are mindgames.

Because I'm a melee veteran (as well as many of us in swf), we see all of these "flaws" as nerfs. If we pretend Samus was a completely new character (like Pit and MK), we would probably be talking all about the potential she has. What I'm trying to say is, let go of melee for a moment and try to embrace the new Samus as she compares to the other 34 (38) characters. Don't think of her as worse than before, after all Fox has the most serious nerf, but imagine what she can accomplish with practice and time.

Some of us aren't comparing her to the Melee samus in every respect.

I think most complaints are coming from her being unable to handle the current cast with her poor moveset and maneuverability.

 

[Phazon_Dude]

My only question is, is Samus slower? Also, are her moves slower as well? If not, I think I can manage maining her again. In tier perspective I'd say high mid...

 

[Sm00th_Crim1nal]

After playing Samus I'd have to say mid tier. Her projectile game has been nerfed, her kill moves are exceedinly hard to land, and without wd she is very awkward to control. She is also freakin' huge which has pissed me off against Falco >:{.

 

[Trifroze]

I haven't played the game, but I've tried to find every single Samus video from YouTube since January 31st. Her aerial game still looks very good, recovery is great, she makes good combos and so on...but KOing sucks monkey balls. Bair is her best KO move right? Well anyway, I'll have to say mid-low if people don't find any techniques that are an advantage for Samus. She'll be ranked somewhere between 20 and 25.

EDIT: I still think that the differences won't be so big between the tiers this time. Well I know, Marth is still ridiculous and Metaknight seems to be taking over too. But whatever, I use Samus no matter what and that's that.

 

[Dew Rag]

no wavedashing = slower

and in general she is slower

 

[Terranrox]

no wavedashing = slower

and in general she is slower

Quite right and also No Wavedashing= awkward running
if only her running animation is cooler like in Metroid Fusion

 

[Phazon_Dude]

no wavedashing = slower

and in general she is slower

Are you kidding me?? Well.. I did rely on wavedashing travel a lot.. but if she is awkward as you say then.....

But.. everyone got more awkward right?

 

[Dew Rag]

if only she had the super tackle and infinit screw attack lol

 

[XSilvenX]

Are you kidding me?? Well.. I did rely on wavedashing travel a lot.. but if she is awkward as you say then.....

But.. everyone got more awkward right?

Ganon has an awkward run.. *_*

Anyway..... more food for thought..

The pit player that I mentioned before in my earlier post. I usually always used to beat in Melee...with multiple characters(not only Samus) so I think it's proven that I'm an all around better SMASH PLAYER (not melee) than he is. So the only reason I'm losing must be because of Samus. I can't see it any other way because I pick Ike ..messing around. I don't play this guy and suddenly I start winning...against all his characters. Due to mindgames? overpowered-ness? I don't know...Ike is pretty good. I think I'm gonna main Ike from now on...I'm not sure, but if somehow Samus is better in the US release (doubt it) then I may come back but I'm looking at Ike right now.

why?

1. Well he's a mindgame dependant character just as Samus was....you can't spam moves and win with him...you have to trick your opponents into getting hit. I LOVE and prefer tactical play over spammy overly- aggressive "fox type" play.

2. He's very challenging to use. It doesn't seem like a random Smash player can pick up and go with him...I guess maybe they can but to be used to his full potential it would take a very long time and alot of experience. Just like Samus ^_^

3. He has alot more potential than Samus does. It seems I can actually make it far in Brawl tournies with this guy and actually start enjoying this game...rather than getting pissed off because I'm losing to people that I would 2 stock in Melee due to my character not being able to kill. If I pick Samus I don't wanna lose because I have to get the opponent to 200% while he kills me at 120%...gtfo. You can call me a quitter or whatever but I think we all want to play Samus because of how she was in Melee...since she's nowhere as good why play her?! I understand some people may have love for the character herself....I salute you guys and all but I can't keep playing and getting mad at the game when maybe it's not the game...

 

[Paradigm]

Quite right and also No Wavedashing= awkward running
if only her running animation is cooler like in Metroid Fusion

I'm fairly sure Samus' awkward run was done to emulate her run in Super Metroid, which has basically become the de facto canon for the franchise.

In Super Metroid Samus' sprite was broken up into two parts - top and bottom. This made it a lot easier to animate her. Her legs didn't care if Samus was looking straight ahead, aiming upward, etc. Similarly, for the most part her upper body didn't care if she was running, crouching, etc.

While this does look a tad unusual, I kinda like it. It gives Samus yet another unique touch. Keep in mind the morph ball, too, was actually put into the first Metroid because it's a lot easier to animate than crawling, and that definitely stuck.

A lot of things are cooler in Fusion but pro'lly won't stick - like her slicker, more organic-looking suit with the badass fins (which I would totally used in Brawl if they gave it as an option. WTF at Wario getting another getup but not Sammy? At least I get the colour scheme...). Cool as it is, the fusion suit dropped Samus' very recognizable Varia-suit shoulders and hence won't likely really replace her older model. (Oddly enough the Varia-suit shoulders, too, were given to Samus to compensate for graphical limitations. They couldn't just change her color scheme in Metroid II on the gameboy, so they had to give her a noticeable physical change.)

So, uhh, her awkward run is probably here to stay and is awesome. In case anyone cared why she runs like that in Melee and Brawl. Metroid rules.

 

[X Megadragon]

Meh. I don't care what tier she is, Samus is still a great character. So what, her projectiles were "nerfed", and she's slower. It doesn't matter IMO. I'm ready to fight anyone with Samus. If I'm against a spacie, then i'll just switch over to ZSS. <.<

The addition of ZSS to Samus really is a help. Faster characters can be controlled by her long range physical attacks (which can't get reflected back by spacies' reflectors) and her new speed makes room for a lot of mindgames. Also, a sudden switch back to Samus can throw someone off in mid-battle. It's kinda like the Zelda-Shiek transformation, but this time Samus and Zamus are... complete opposites. This new combination has a lot of potential IMO and can really confuse your opponents.

If I had a say in this, I'd go for Samus for mid-high to high tier.

 

[Metroid_01]

Samus isnt bad, nobody is bad in Brawl...but she has some weird disadvantages. I guess thats how the character is doomed to be because she is projectile based.

The Samus-Zero Suit transformation is risky at best. Have you played the game? If you kill with the final smash, they will recover fast enough to charge a smash on you about 90% of the time. With Zero suit, anyone with slightly above competent levels of DI will get out and stand there fully charging a smash every time. Thats with supposed instant kills to back up the transformations. Transformations are a tremendous risk. My friend got knocked out of a tournament trying to change Pokemon.


I agree with HugS, Samus overall is surprisingly good given the extraordinary number of nerfs to the character (matched likely only by spacies). Shes definitely solid, but you could also make the argument she was somewhat solid in classic to...just unable to handle certain matchups. Its a Similar situation now.

After playing the game a few weeks, this is how I look at Samus' Matchups. There are 3 types of foes that Samus will have some degree of trouble with. (And you might be able to argue that a character with a good projectile will also give Samus trouble due to the fact that Samus is just about the only character with projectiles that cant camp with them, but a stage counterpick will fix that)

>Short Characters
>Fast Characters
>Characters with swords or otherwise ridiculous priority.

Having one of these traits is not a problem, everyone should have atleast one somewhere. Look at Ike. He has great priority on his attacks, but he is slow...that makes the matchup rather even for Samus. Good.
But then look at someone with 2 of them...Marth. He is rather quick and has excellent priority. He gives Samus complete hell in Brawl.
Now look at someone with all 3 of these...Pit or Squirtle lets say. Its practically over from the start (atleast, you have to prepare for a ton of running away all match). My roommate plays PT, and I beat on his Charizard and Ivysaur usually, but Squirtle comes out and I can never do more than 50-70% damage without losing a stock. Those 2 act as the buffer so when Squirtle comes out I have a stock to burn.

Thats where I see Samus' weakness lie. If we can figure out how to slow the faster characters down or break through high priority opponents Samus will definitely find herself in a higher tier...but until then, I guess low or low-mid at best. Fortunately, Smash is becoming significantly closer to a balanced fighter and even low tiers can do just fine.

 

[ama(m/t)]

word on the street is that xsx sucks at smash bros and doesn't even paly samus

 

[X Megadragon]

That's a very nice post, Metroid. :D

I'm sure that we'll find a way to combat fast characters/high priority characters... but I think Samus should have an advantage over short characters, no?

Samus has d-tilt, d-smash, and d-air to combat short characters. Also, bomb-jumped missile canceled flurries, homing missiles, and charged shots can still hit them. How would Samus have a disadvantage over a short character? Generally short characters are light, and Samus is rather heavy, so it's a no brainer that she should have an advantage. o.o

 

[Metroid_01]

A missile cancel can send a missile a hair lower, but only low enough to pick off Fox' ear. So imagine any character shorter than that being totally immune to smash missiles. Also realize that due to her height, many attacks can actually straight up miss a shorter character. If they are on a slope below you at all, short characters can actually stand under almost all of Samus' attacks.

They do die young, but Samus has kill move problems, so its not as much of an advantage as it could be, and the fact that they often have an easy time negating missiles makes life even worse.

Granted, being short isnt as big of an advantage as being fast or having good priority (and I do think your point is a good one), but being smaller is definitely an advantage in Brawl...and when you combine it with other advantages, the character becomes very good. You really just have to try it out to understand why I say short characters can be a headache.

 

[Rohins]

Some good points Metroid 01. I agree that those are the types of characters that give Samus trouble. Crawling works really well vs Samus too.

 

[Phazon_Dude]

I can't let you do that XSX! Come on, Samus is way cooler than Ike! If what your saying is right then I guess I should learn pit while I'm at it so I could win more often.... Even though my raw skill will probably guide my Samus victories.

 

[Chepe]

If Samus ends up worse than Zero Suit Samus... I will question Sakurai's sanity.

I think her place in Melee was well-deserved, as she is a popular character outside of Smash. So well-balanced, but they seem to have thought she was too powerful with them spammies and so they nerfed some of her major moves, and that coupled with the wavedash loss she lost a lot of maneuverability. Its a good thing she still seems to be faring well so we cant make an accurate call on her tier status just yet...

 

[HugS]

Wow, Ike is ****ing trash. I mean I understand wanting to switch to a new character, but Ike?

Might as well stay samus.

Ike will only be good for about 2 weeks. Once people learn the game he won't be able to hurt a fly. Unless azen uses him.

 

[Wildfire393]

From what I've seen, Samus will be a lower tier than last time. Her Nair (her best melee move) has basically 0 knockback, her Bair I've seen not kill at 170%, her smash missiles are weaker and slower, she's lost crouch canceling and wavedashing, bomb jumping is more difficult and less effective (and half of the characters' regular recoveries are already as good as bomb jumping all the way back, making it less of a boon), and the rest of her moves basically seem unchanged, so there's nothing to make up for all of these nerfments.

 

[Rohins]

Wow, Ike is ****ing trash. I mean I understand wanting to switch to a new character, but Ike?

Might as well stay samus.

Ike will only be good for about 2 weeks. Once people learn the game he won't be able to hurt a fly. Unless azen uses him.

Azen is ridiculous with Ike O_o

 

[GotACoolName]

Bair I've seen not kill at 170%

Unless it was stale moves'd to hell, you're probably remembering wrong.

bomb jumping is more difficult and less effective (and half of the characters' regular recoveries are already as good as bomb jumping all the way back, making it less of a boon)

Other characters having a better recovery isn't a nerf on Samus; it's an improvement to other characters. The problem with her bombs isn't bomb jump, but a usurped usefulness as a mindgame and combo-starting option.

and the rest of her moves basically seem unchanged, so there's nothing to make up for all of these nerfments.

What about zair, fair, uair, usmash, homing missiles, and Screw Attack?

 

[Trifroze]

Since Nair has lost knockback, I wonder if it could now be used to escape from opponents combo AND immediately start your own aerial combo after that. Then it could be considered as a buff too.

 

[greenblob]

Is the pivot viable for Samus? That could solve some of the problems created by the lack of WDing.

And I think the bair has a sweetspot.

Oh, and how good is the dair? Is it a viable combo starter?

 

[Dew Rag]

dair is the new nair : )

and great way to gimp people easy
it way not be a combo starter, but it will def kill people

 

[Psydon]

I'm certain that we'll discover some crazy tricks with Samus as the months turn into years, and those will affect her tier standing. Right now, though, I think she's mid-to-upper-mid tier. She's lost a lot of her power, but she's gained greater aerial mobility and several improved moves that leave a lot of potential open (homing missiles, zair, uair, up+b, fair, and so on), and she has no landing lag. Getting kills with her is just as difficult as ever but she can combo more easily and has a much easier time surviving.