What does it take to be banned?

[Strong Badam]

No, John123456 (?? what a terrible name) is pro-ban and did the whole money research **** to try and "prove" MK's dominance.

 

[Mew2King]

dude what strongbad said, johnnumbers is the most pro ban person ever

strongbad who was that person, Iliad or something? someone like that made a chart on allisbrawl to counter johnnumbers chart, who analyzed tons of things about explained how SKILL was the factor in his conclusion?

I don't remember his exact name so I can't find his blog on aib as a result

you know who I'm talking about right?

 

[Veetaak]

I've never played brawl, not even friendlies but from the looks of it MK isn't OP and unbeatable. He is a great character ofc but like, didn't m2k got beat by some Olimar dude before? (I don't know if Olimar is any good btw XD)

 

[Mew2King]

you haven't been following - it doesn't matter if he's broken or not and pro ban admitted he's not (at least most all of them at this point did). Their new excuse is overcentralization but that's not even the main thing - it's the people in power are super pro ban to begin with, shouldn't have power but do, and won't be refuted against because they have majority backing (ONLY because majority wants MK banned because Majority BENEFITS from it. It's not about right or wrong, it's about majority + who is in power, tbch sadly).

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13468750&postcount=153

 

[Strong Badam]

strongbad who was that person, Iliad or something? someone like that made a chart on allisbrawl to counter johnnumbers chart, who analyzed tons of things about explained how SKILL was the factor in his conclusion?

I don't remember his exact name so I can't find his blog on aib as a result

you know who I'm talking about right?

I don't follow Brawl all that closely (only recently because the MK ban is stupid; also trolling with Sheik in that game is funny), nor do I check AllisBrawl ever.

 

[Kal]

It's amusing that "brokenness" is supposed to be the measure of overcentralization, and now it's become its own thing separate from the concept. It just shows you how far people will go to justify scrubbiness.

 

[Armada]

When you're playing to time the opponent out, and doing so very clearly, is it considered just really intense hardcore camping? Or stalling?

Puffs Pound stalling
Peach bomb jump (in some situations)
Fox shine against walls
Wobbling forever

This is examples of stalling when you can´t do anything and the time is going out.
If you arep paying campy it is still possible to reach the opponent even if he is succesfull with the strategy he is useing.

So yeah hardcore camping is better to describe my Y link =)

 

[Zodiac]

The only ban worthy character would be falco but for few short comings.

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Why Falco?

He's off stage and he's dead.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

 

[KishPrime]

I love the random reference to 2003 mid-thread. In 2003, 99.5% of this board had never been to a tournament and 90% of the tournament players hadn't been to an event larger than 25 people.

It was an awesome time to be a smasher.

 

[Oracle]

No, John123456 (?? what a terrible name) is pro-ban and did the whole money research **** to try and "prove" MK's dominance.

I guess from that chart you could determine he had

*puts on shades*

number johns.

YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[tarextherex]

This guy summarized everything PERFECTLY

it's not about what's right or wrong. It's simply catering to a majority, and since the VAST majority of people don't use MK, assuming each person has equal bias (MK players for it and pro bans against it to help them) it is still heavily going to be more for the ban than it should really be otherwise. By doing things this way (Majority wins over all), Unity will always be in power, even if their way of doing things isn't a compromise at all. It's pretty unfortunate how it really works, since being in the majority is all that matters.

I'm pretty sure this is the blog you're looking for: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=123595


And yeah, I think they should've changed the ruleset before banning MK. They wanted change for the community basically because they were bored of MK, but they could've did the same with simply changing the ruleset and banning RC and Brinstar, this would've been more conciliating. But, they still decided to ban MK because the fact that he's pretty much the main reason for changing rulesets makes it a reason to ban him. This really shows laziness on their part.

 

[Strife]

I'm pretty sure this is the blog you're looking for: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=123595


And yeah, I think they should've changed the ruleset before banning MK. They wanted change for the community basically because they were bored of MK, but they could've did the same with simply changing the ruleset and banning RC and Brinstar, this would've been more conciliating. But, they still decided to ban MK because the fact that he's pretty much the main reason for changing rulesets makes it a reason to ban him. This really shows laziness on their part.

I'm really not sure the answer is to continue banning stages just because a single character is overpowered on them. That's the same mistake the melee community has made with fox. Now that MK is banned we may find a lot of more stages being used in counter picks since a single character is no longer god on those levels.

 

[Xnpio]

Oh noes!

A character is being used a lot.

What bunch of ****ing bunk to base the criterion for banning him off of. I wish the Brawl community would focus on the fact that Metaknight arguably "breaks" their game, not based on how much money he makes or how often he's used.

Smooth Criminal

It's too bad this IS the case. The main argument isn't that he wins the most money. He DOES break the game under our current ruleset. (Someone like M2K can debate this to no end, but over 70% of the community feels the same way. You don't need to main a character to know how good it is.) It's because of his being so incredibly good, beating every character in every possible way (except for not having a projectile, yet it could be argued that he can STILL camp better than Falco/Olimar/Snake) Oh, and Olimar might have an overall stronger ground game. Buuuut, MetaKnight has the best everything else.

The crazy amount of usage and money made by MK is just a contributing factor that proves that he dominates the metagame.

 

[MJG]

I can only see a select few players benefiting from this ban..unless 90% of your losses are to MK like me. With that being said, I don't agree with the ban but its whatever. I took the time to learn how to fight MK and with that being said, I realized that I have to limit my mistakes (I can't have 0 mistakes because I am human just like everyone else) if I want to have a chance to win.


Like I said though, I won't be surprised if some people still place the same with MK gone (ADHD probably benefited from the ban the most out of the top players).

 

[Sync.]

why is in this melee boards wtfffffffffffffffff.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's too bad this IS the case. The main argument isn't that he wins the most money. He DOES break the game under our current ruleset. (Someone like M2K can debate this to no end, but over 70% of the community feels the same way. You don't need to main a character to know how good it is.) It's because of his being so incredibly good, beating every character in every possible way (except for not having a projectile, yet it could be argued that he can STILL camp better than Falco/Olimar/Snake) Oh, and Olimar might have an overall stronger ground game. Buuuut, MetaKnight has the best everything else.

The crazy amount of usage and money made by MK is just a contributing factor that proves that he dominates the metagame.

I think you missed something:

I wish the Brawl community would focus on the fact that Metaknight arguably "breaks" their game, not based on how much money he makes or how often he's used.

That is more important than anything else. Bringing up the fact that MK is used a lot and brings home the most money is pointless. It doesn't prove or disprove a damn thing in relation to his abilities as a character.

It's not about dominating the ****ing metagame. Any good character in a fighting game or its equivalent can have domineering results, unrivaled usage and take home most of the ****ing money. It's about how a character makes the game unplayable in certain situations PERIOD.

Christ on a cracker.

The reason why I stand by the fact that the nature of this ban has been flawed and stupid is because people like you (a.k.a. the URC, very loud pro-banners) use the words "it could be argued." I've yet to see anything concrete out of the mouths of the URC. I've just seen nothing but a bunch of pro-banning nitwits shouting out details like "hurr, hurr MK is broken and benefits on all stages and he camps better and et cetera" without making any solid claims otherwise. It's still a point of contention in my book.

I'm not even going to get in to the fact that the methods that they utilized for the ban are sketchy as hell.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Xnpio]

And that's where you miss the point that the vast majority of the community DOES focus on the fact that he breaks our game. Everything our ruleset had stood for since the game came out, has constantly been altered to slow MK down.
He breaks our ruleset. The reason that his winnings and dominance have even been brought up, is because there have been many people who say that changing the rules for him doesn't mean enough, and that they have wanted statistical proof.j

Again, after his abilities as a character have time and time again been proven to be the best in every aspect.

The community has known this for years. The group that was in power of whether or not he was banned when this was first known, felt like it was too early to tell whether or not he was bannable. So they waited, and waited, and waited. Now we have a new group who finally wants to do something about it, and this is what happened.

 

[DRN]

I'm really not sure the answer is to continue banning stages just because a single character is overpowered on them. That's the same mistake the melee community has made with fox. Now that MK is banned we may find a lot of more stages being used in counter picks since a single character is no longer god on those levels.

RC and Brinstar shouldn't be legal even with MK in the game. It is not a coincidence that we(The United States) are pretty much the only country to have an MK problem and we're also the only country to have those stages legal

Just Sayin'

 

[Xnpio]

We're also the only country to have put anywhere near the same amount of time and effort into MetaKnight...

Just sayin'.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

We're also the only country to have put anywhere near the same amount of time and effort into MetaKnight...

Just sayin'.

Doesn't matter.

You're pretty much taking a **** on other countries when you say that. Who are you to say that other countries haven't developed any kind of technology to handle MK?

Again, where's your proof? And don't say the words "arguably." We want incontrovertible evidence.

This brings me back to a point Omni made about the nature of the decision: If this is supposed to be for the community as a whole, a Unity decision, where's the rest of the world and their opinion on the matter? I don't see a goddamn T.O. from anywhere in Europe, or even Japan, on that committee. There's more to this community than the U.S. and Canada. Don't even say the Brawl communities in those countries are non-existent, either.

Smooth Criminal

(And arguments. We want arguments. SHOUT OUTS TO KAL.)

 

[Kal]

Or at least an actual argument. >_>

 

[DRN]

We're also the only country to have put anywhere near the same amount of time and effort into MetaKnight...

Just sayin'.

Lol thats not even a real excuse. Ally hasn't been playing MK for nearly as long as a lot of our top MKs and yet he caught up quite easily to Anti/Nairo. Japan has plenty of Metaknights but none of them complain about him either. Their MKs are really good and its not like they don't put time/effort into getting better especially if they main him. Their metaknights are also not of lower skill then any of ours with the exception of maybe like M2K.

 

[Xnpio]

I'm not taking a **** on anyone by saying that.

M2K dominated our country like crazy with MK.
More players picked up MK.
M2K invented MK's metagame.
M2K is in our country, and single-handedly put more time and effort into MK than anyone else in the world.

If that's false, then there's someone hiding in a basement in some foreign country, STILL putting effort into MK that hasn't seen the light of day in 4 years.

There's no proof necessary for this.

If you look at our country's top players and compare the characters they use to characters of top players in other countries, you'd see that. I'm not going to go find the info for you, because I don't need to.

EDIT: @DRN really? Look at Genesis 2 placings, or any situation where their MKs have been pitted against ours, and tell me that their MKs are not of lower skill than ours.

@Smooth Criminal The URC is open for admission. Pretty sure there are no TO's from Europe or Japan who have cared enough to apply and even try and take part in the URC. It's self-explanatory.

EDIT2: @DRN Ally has been unanimously decided upon as one of the top 3 players in the world. Someone with as much skill as him doesn't need to put as much time into learning a character, because he understands the game better than practically everyone, thus learning at a much higher rate.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If you look at our country's top players and compare the characters they use to characters of top players in other countries, you'd see that. I'm not going to go find the info for you, because I don't need to.

I love the backpedaling.

Whatever. I gotta get to work. My point has been made.

Edit: "Open to admission?" That's pretty lulzy. Perhaps if it was a community effort, maybe somebody would have extended a hand...?

Smooth Criminal

 

[DRN]

EDIT: @DRN really? Look at Genesis 2 placings, or any situation where their MKs have been pitted against ours, and tell me that their MKs are not of lower skill than ours.

Yea because so many of Japans GOOD MKs showed up to Genesis 2. Literally the only half mk player from Japan that showed up was Rain and hes not even considered one of their top MKs. His falco is a looot better and is the reason he is(or was) a top player in Japan.

 

[Xnpio]

@DRN True, I'm glad you knew that much. However, how can you say that their MKs are of equal skill level to ours? Where's your proof?
Our MK's have been seen as the best MK's in the world, and I'm pretty sure there is a reason for that. >_<

@Smooth Criminal Why should I find something for you if it's entirely obvious and has been since the game's release? MetaKnight wasn't even the highest on Japan's tier list for the first year (pretty sure years) of Brawl's existence. Since M2K's usage of MK, there has been no evidence in America that could even begin to support MK not being the best, and it's entirely because of M2K.
M2K has put more effort into MK than anyone, period.

Other countries sure may have developed some ridiculous technique to deal with MK... Which would probably have allowed them better placing at any American tournament they have ever come to. I'm just saying that if they have, (there are people in the Brawl community who follow Japan/Europe's metagames very closely) we would know about it.

I guess we can see at Apex if they bust out some crazy new technology that allows them to beat every one of our top MKs.

EDIT: Smooth Criminal, what's the point of complaining that there are no European & Japanese T.O.'s in the URC, if they didn't care enough to join? How do you know that nobody extended a hand?

 

[gm jack]

Or M2K could just be the best brawl player, regardless of character?

Not beating the best player using the best character doesn't prove anything. That could just be that M2K is the best at brawl, and MK is the character he prefers to use.

 

[Mew2King]

I got mk banned, when it's the last thing I wanted to do

all because of 2 things

1) biased Unity members who wanted him gone
2) support from a majority, since more people benefit from him gone than not. So it will never be refuted.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I got mk banned, when it's the last thing I wanted to do

all because of 2 things

1) biased Unity members who wanted him gone
2) support from a majority, since more people benefit from him gone than not. So it will never be refuted.

I don't think it's just you that caused the ban, but the fact that near everyone used him because of the way you used him... if that makes sense. Because every tourney had a MK:Other character ratio that was way too big of a difference, I guess people got tired of "MK this" or "MK that". I could be wrong, but that's just my thought. A petty reason to ban a character, in my opinion, but what can one do? I suppose you can switch to D3 and see if you can get him banned to prove a point? Hell, if I know.

 

[DRN]

@DRN True, I'm glad you knew that much. However, how can you say that their MKs are of equal skill level to ours? Where's your proof?
Our MK's have been seen as the best MK's in the world, and I'm pretty sure there is a reason for that. >_<

It's true that there is no way for me to completely prove their mks are of the same level. Of course this could be applied in so many different ways. I could also say that we cannot for sure say our MKs are better then theirs since we cant prove it. I also dont want to use flawed comparisons bringing up the players that did come to the USA. I dont believe the world sees our mks as the best. They may see that we have the best MK though(M2K).

 

[AllyKnight]

Problem with Jason is, he thinks he's the reason MK is getting/is banned. NO. The world isn't around you.

 

[SpongeJordan]

This is a Brawl post. I'm neutral leaning towards pro-ban, simply because MK, as a character, is capable of perfectly camping and completely making all match up knowledge pointless. However, there are so few (Possibly even no one) that is capable of pulling that off. IMO, THATS a reason to ban, and the response to said reason.

Overcentralization, character strength and "wahhh he wins too much money" aren't even reasonable. What if one character dominates the metagame even harder now that MK is banned? There will always be best characters.

[/brawlpost]

I hate that this turned into a Brawl/MK thread. I typically keep to myself in Melee threads, since I'm so *** at it, but you guys are quite reasonable compared to the URC posts.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Problem with Jason is, he thinks he's the reason MK is getting/is banned. NO. The world isn't around you.

Sa-nap. XD

But he is right though. I mean, yes, you've won many tournaments with MK, but again, it's not just you being the reason for his ban. Hell, you may not even be the reason at all, M2K. It's the fact that EVERYONE started using him, and the metagame just became stale because of it. There are other reasons, I'm sure, like no bad MUs, and such, but I'll hazard a bet that a stale metagame is the primary reason.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Problem with Jason is, he thinks he's the reason MK is getting/is banned. NO. The world isn't around you.

Oh this is just dumb. Of course M2K is a major reason why this ban happened. Hes been winning almost every tourney since Brawls release. The Metaknight "statistics" that they keep purporting, and the perceived dominance of MK would be very different if M2K didn't exist.

If Brawl had instead been dominated by you, Ally, when you mained Snake, then I doubt this ban would have happened.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

So its not just M2k's fault that he was banned...

It was M2k and

Spoiler

all the fanboys that copied him

 

[Claire Diviner]

So its not just M2k's fault that he was banned...

It was M2k and

Spoiler

all the fanboys that copied him

That pretty much sums up some of the argument.

 

[Mew2King]

honestly shadwphoenx is right

ally you and anti, AND tyrant, all admitted to me that you copied the **** out of my MK. Besides tyrant, you two wouldn't have even mained him without my influence. I honestly think if I wasn't around since the VERY beginning ****** EVERY tourney, encouraging tons of people to pick him up, + all the videos, it would not be like this right now, AT ALL, especially since it's heavily based off who is in the finals and a lot of newbs look at amount-of-money won and me, +tyrant, you, anti, won a LOT of money. I always kept talking to tyrant and dojo among others about MK strats, ALL i wanted was to fully master the character as far as he could possibly be pushed, and I even took off 2 years of college to do it. I focused on metaknight when I should have focused on college especially 2 years ago during MLG.

I'm going to have a big writeup on a lot of things over next week or so since a lot of it gets lost in hundreds of disorganized posts of mine

if people knew as much as i did on this subject and what is REALLY going on, they would all see how terribly ****ed up it all is.

 

[Claire Diviner]

especially since it's heavily based off who is in the finals and a lot of newbs look at amount-of-money won.

Makes me wonder how much money top tier characters have won in other fighting games, let alone Smash Bros.. Perhaps that can be a way to prove that MK's ban is simply out of hate? Personally, it makes no difference to me. Banned or not, people will complain, piss, moan, argue, and whine about either MK's ban, MK not being banned, or whoever takes his place at numero 1.