What does it take to be banned?

[Mew2King]

my opinion is it doesn't show as much "true skill" or skill on those stages Brinstar/RC as it would on something like battlefield or another neutral. However, I don't know how to explain this one in words. You just have to know what I mean and hopefully understand what I am saying, since someone could just be like "well what is skill to you then" and I dont know how to explain it.

 

[Kal]

Then why not host MK-enabled tourneys. I mean, sure, your tourney won't be stickied, or have any sponsors or things like that, but if it's the only way to play MK in a tournament, then so be it. I mean, it's not like you HAVE to abide by the Unity ruleset.

I hate when people make this point, because no one is claiming the rule creators are enforcing their rules by physical means. If I claimed the National Guard showed up at my tournament and said "you haven't been abiding by the Unity ruleset," then we could discuss this issue. But no one is making that claim.

You're ignoring the reality of things: no, we're not forced to play by these rules. But, at the same time, if we don't play by these rules, we lose a very real sense of legitimacy in our tournaments. Combine that with the very corrupt methodology of only making sticky (sounds kind of dirty) the tournament threads which abide by this ruleset, and it's clear we have a problem.

It's not as though M2K wants to call the government in on this one:

Dear President Obama,

The Unity is a bunch of cootie heads. They won't let me use MK.

Sincerely,

- Jason Mew2King Zimmerman

 

[Masmasher@]

its funny cause zyro got to that point where he was hosting banned mk tourneys
(after about the third ban attempt)
i guess he wanted the shoe on the other foot

 

[Mew2King]

san. I've been trying for the 10 minute timer for like I think 2 years now or something. BBR never lets me pass it, because the same people that keep saying how good MK is at timing out, keep voting down the ruleset changes that I'm trying to make

tbch, I wouldn't mind if MK was even just like a high tier character. I would still main him. I want the game to be as fair for everyone as possible, and that's why I want the rules to support that. (It's one thing if you choose a low tier knowing he's a low tier, but for example, I wouldn't want to make Ganondorf worse than he is now with the Suicide rule. I wouldn't want a stage that's almost an auto-win, like melee falco on rainbow cruise, or brawl metaknight on brinstar is). I want it to be more fair for everyone in that sense.

10 minute timer discourages timeouts
LGL discourages less boring gameplay and less fun gameplay to watch
and I am still explaining stages/just explained what I think on stages, but my wording argument for it is not the best

 

[Mew2King]

...... actually Kal


...

alphazealot stated that if you don't use Unity, you are not eligible for your tournament to be stickied

so yeah, Unity is pretty corrupt. They are trying to force you to use their rulesets. And, AZ also said that there would be another announcement about it after Apex. I really hate Unity and what they have done and what they are doing/still doing

 

[Kal]

That's what I said, M2K.

 

[Mew2King]

I don't think any other stages are really that great for MK. Not even Delphino, not only have I lost to brood there but at Pound5 Razer 2 stocked me at high % on that stage just by getting a lead in the beginning and me being unable to get it back no matter what I did. I truely think it's just brinstar and rainbow (Brinstar is worse though). ive been 2 stocked by adhd there too. Delphino is overrated for MK, but I still enjoy it.

 

[Kal]

There's no need to go on about this issue, M2K. It's clear that the Unity ruleset is just a way to force personal preference on the minority. But, really, that's why ruleset committees are made when they're unnecessary. There is an idealistic notion of getting together and deliberating on what rules are "best," but when it comes down to it, the overwhelming majority of restrictions are justified subjectively. And so, in many occasions, ruleset committees just end up infringing on the rights of the minority.

The URC is a unique example in that they are more or less explicit about telling the minority to **** off. They hide their stance (barely) with terminology and jargon, but it's clear that their stance is "Meta Knight is gay, let's get rid of him." It's quite absurd.

 

[jedi093]

for the ppl who want to ban MK just play melee instead lol.

 

[Mew2King]

I know, and I'm not sure what to do about it

but I'd at least like to make people aware of the REAL TRUTH of how they work and how alll the voting processes really work to the public

this lesson did teach me a life lesson though

appealing to the majority is the way to go if you want something to pass

regardless of if it's right or wrong

and that makes me really sad to learn/know =/


edit - also TOs have way too much power when they shouldn't. It makes sense that they do, but they don't legitimately deserve it (in the sense of game understanding). It's like if I hosted a marvel tournament, I shouldn't really be the rule decider for it.

 

[Mew2King]

Btw, any of you guys on east coast that play either melee or Brawl

D1's gonna host tourneys around manhattan NY after apex and he said he would be the self-proclaimed MK-allowed TO. Also, his melee tourneys are pretty big. Last one had 27 people and wasn't really advertised but he's gonna get a new venue soon. I figure since so many people are reading this right now, and it applies to all of east coast for both melee and brawl, it would be a good time to say this now

he will be the only TO who's tourneys I attend for brawl (and melee besides alukards no johns events, and maybe Jtails if he hosts without Unity) after apex. I feel like there's no more reason for me to play since everyone is picking up Unity for dumb reasons.

besides that, I don't really have a direction in life anymore if this happens. metaknight was literally my life investment for past 3 years as dumb as that sounds <_<

 

[tarextherex]

I'm really not sure the answer is to continue banning stages just because a single character is overpowered on them. That's the same mistake the melee community has made with fox. Now that MK is banned we may find a lot of more stages being used in counter picks since a single character is no longer god on those levels.

Even without those two we still have a pretty diverse CP list that works well for all of the cast. While certain other characters can perform well on these stages, they are still a minority and even without those, they still have other decent CPs. Even the argument about brinstar being a good stage since it makes Ganon and Link somewhat more viable is false, since if the stage is that ******** so you lose to bottom tiers on it, well it makes them way harder CPs than the others. Plus, if you actually have the dedication of maining a bottom tier, you should be good enough to go at least toe to toe with your opponent on a neutral. Anyway you would still get hard CP'd after taking a game off on brinstar, so... yeah.


Also, the main point of my post wasn't really about shrinking the stage list, it's more about how unfair it was to actually ban MK before changing the ruleset. We didn't even have a surge of tournaments experimenting different rulesets while we had one for MK banned tourneys. That's not right, usually you try changing the rules before actually banning a character, but the past BBR rulesets still weren't right. Since the community wanted change, they should've started with actually experimenting another ruleset to see if the metagame would actually progress after that, making it more similar to say, Japan, before banning the character.

 

[Black Mantis]

for the ppl who want to ban MK just play melee instead lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0&feature=channel_video_title
but really by that logic everyone should play super street fighter 4 ae since akuma is banned in street fighter 2 turbo

 

[Mew2King]

I don't believe this garbon about the community wanted change. Most of them just wanted it to be easier on themselves (the vast majority anyway)

 

[Kal]

I know, and I'm not sure what to do about it

You can't do much, honestly. I've been trying to do the same thing with the Melee stage list, and the best you can do is convince the more open-minded, less idiotic people that their subjective justifications for things (even if they firmly believe them to be true) are strictly subjective, and therefore arbitrary. Thus, they largely infringe on the rights of the minority.

For example, I have convinced one player here in Austin, who was initially "no stages which aren't the five starters" (I refuse to call them "neutral" because that word is loaded with false pretenses) to go from that to "yeah, you're right, but I still prefer to play them. Nobody seems to mind (except you), so we'll use the MBR ruleset." No one else who is pro MBR has been convinced of anything. The best I've gotten is one guy who's convinced both rulesets are equally valid. He makes things up about having "different standards" and of course ignores the point entirely about forcing the minority to abide to your preferences.

In essence, when enough people are married to the idea, it's not possible to change the collective opinion. You can't convince them that they're just infringing on the rights of the minority, because people are inherently selfish (and scrubby!) and they will either ignore what you say or come up with absurd justifications to reconcile their preferences with what they know is right.

And it's quite the opposite with regards to TO deciding rules. There is no one else to decide, really. And regardless, I feel that it's a responsibility the TO has to use his own judgments to make a ruleset. To quote a the musical 1776:

A representative owes the People not only his industry, but his judgment, and he betrays them if he sacrifices it to their opinion.

 

[Mew2King]

but if Unity never happened, the TOs couldn't hold MK banned tourneys with very high attendance because it wasn't accepted by the masses by an "official" (whatever that means -_-) statement. The whole system is awful.

I hate how the bad guys and scrubs won.

 

[Kal]

I agree that Unity shouldn't exist. Neither should the MBR. But what can you do? Once an authority comes into play you have to start convincing a lot of the important people (that is, the people who have large impacts on their local communities) to dissent. With something like Meta Knight (or the MBR ruleset), this will basically never happen.

However, one solution would be to start your own national tournament series. This might legitimize your ruleset in the eyes of the rest of the community. The issue is convincing people to come despite the disapproved ruleset.

 

[Mew2King]

Interesting you say that because Europe and Japan hate what Unity is doing regarding MK (and also think timer should be 10 minutes, and less stages, and MK legal, the same way I do)

 

[Kal]

Interesting that I say what particularly?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I will say that without a uniform set of rules, it would be much more difficult to differentiate legitimate tournaments, and this is where I disagree with you, Kal. I think that a uniform ruleset gives everyone a set of guidelines to follow if they want their tournament recognized as legitimate, meaning that a victory there means something. For example, you wouldn't acknowledge someone who won at a local tourney where items were on, and all stages were legal as much as you would, say, someone who won at a national, where the rules are agreed upon by everyone. So I guess the MBR should exist, but perhaps the capacity to which the control things should be changed.

Whether or not those rules are fair/unfair/too restrictive is an entirely different issue.

 

[Mew2King]

national tourney generally means Apex/Genesis type of stuff, but Japan and Europe like the ruleset of 10 min timer, less stages, MK legal. I talked to Suinoko on aib PMs a week or so ago and he said "almost all japanese think mk should be legal" and mr-R told me that too and said his scene thinks that way too.

when you said national i think international, since that's what it really is

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I really want to meet Kal. He plays marth, writes well, and quotes musicals.

We would probably be good friends. <3

 

[MechaWave]

Why don't we steal Japan's ruleset, M2K? :3

 

[FortGar]

Lol, they won't sticky tourneys that won't use their ruleset. Brawl is such a ****ing joke.

 

[Mew2King]

I'd love to use their rulesets, but a select group of very biased people DECIDED THEY HAVE ULTIMATE POWER

 

[Mew2King]

tbh, the fact that this happened was my deciding factor in me not wanting to take smash seriously anymore until the 4th installment. Just feels like no point anymore

and I really do hate the brawl community, but I'm bored of melee too anyway, so I don't really wanna continue. I just go to no johns events and stuff for money now but the payouts aren't as good as they used to be either

time I find a direction in life, but it sucks I'll lose my 200 every week and 3 year investment cuz of some brawl power-obsessed *******s

 

[40secondz]

I think its time to move on with life.

 

[Mew2King]

dont say come back to melee - i don't want to cuz im too pissed

 

[Kal]

I will say that without a uniform set of rules, it would be much more difficult to differentiate legitimate tournaments, and this is where I disagree with you, Kal. I think that a uniform ruleset gives everyone a set of guidelines to follow if they want their tournament recognized as legitimate, meaning that a victory there means something. For example, you wouldn't acknowledge someone who won at a local tourney where items were on, and all stages were legal as much as you would, say, someone who won at a national, where the rules are agreed upon by everyone. So I guess the MBR should exist, but perhaps the capacity to which the control things should be changed.

If a TO explains, ahead of time, what the rules are, there will be no problem. It's always up to the individual to decide whether a tournament with a specific ruleset is worth attending. If the MBR bans Sheik tomorrow, I won't go to MBR approved tournaments, regardless of legitimacy.

This has nothing to do with "acknowledging player skill." That is an entirely separate issue, and these complexities you've mentioned actually pale in comparison to real complexities: the people are human, and the game is exceptionally deep.

I'm getting a bit off topic here, so I'll revert to the first point:

It would not be hard, at all, to tell what tournaments are worthwhile. If a TO posts his rules ahead of time, then you can tell if the tournament is legitimate. The MBR does not actually account for the problem you've mentioned in a real way but, instead, a contrived one: it decides "this ruleset is right" and has to hope a large enough proportion agrees with it. If the MBR published "items-on" tomorrow, tournaments would still be hosted with items-off. And that's the point, really: this methodology of legitimizing tournaments exists with or without the MBR.

Now, consider some of the negatives of something like the MBR: you can't host tournaments which stray even slightly from the ruleset, or your tournament is not legitimate, because the MBR, the faux-authority, has decided so. In other words, when the majority agrees with the faux-authority, it becomes an actual authority which cannot be argued with.

Moreover, and in the first place, there are issues with something as elitist as a small group of players getting together and deciding on what's the "best" way to play.

Whether or not those rules are fair/unfair/too restrictive is an entirely different issue.

No, the fact is that, if those unfair rules arise from an individual TO, without an authoritative body, we would have no issue with telling the TO to **** off. What are we supposed to do when we have an authoritative body that makes a ruleset which is obviously bad, but which the majority agrees with?

national tourney generally means Apex/Genesis type of stuff, but Japan and Europe like the ruleset of 10 min timer, less stages, MK legal. I talked to Suinoko on aib PMs a week or so ago and he said "almost all japanese think mk should be legal" and mr-R told me that too and said his scene thinks that way too.

when you said national i think international, since that's what it really is

I still don't really understand what's surprised you about what I said. Could you explain?

I really want to meet Kal. He plays marth, writes well, and quotes musicals.

We would probably be good friends. <3

I expect everyone of my crowd to make fun of my proud protestations of faith and romance.

 

[Mew2King]

i never said i was surprised

 

[Kal]

Sorry, you said "interesting that you say that." What did you find interesting, exactly? I still don't understand.

 

[Mew2King]

anyway im gonna go tho.

IF YOU GUYS WANT TO PLAY ME, I'll be at 3 future event series

-D1s melee+Brawl events in New York (going to be a big series started after Apex)
-Jtails events (if MK is legal I will always support it and bring a carpool there too)
-No Johns NY events

(in that order of likeliness/importance to me)


that's probably it (and anything really close by that's big with rules I like)

kal - idk, i guess bad wording

 

[Kal]

Oh, well nevermind then. You know you still owe me $2 right?

<3

 

[Mew2King]

with that im out

 

[Kal]

Fine, but I will get the collection agency to chase you down and get that $2.

 

[MechaWave]

Hopefully SSB4 doesn't suck ****. Ironic even I complain of many of Brawl's flaws I still play it.

kks M2K.

 

[ShroudedOne]

If a TO explains, ahead of time, what the rules are, there will be no problem. It's always up to the individual to decide whether a tournament with a specific ruleset is worth attending. If the MBR bans Sheik tomorrow, I won't go to MBR approved tournaments, regardless of legitimacy.

This.

It would not be hard, at all, to tell what tournaments are worthwhile. If a TO posts his rules ahead of time, then you can tell if the tournament is legitimate. The MBR does not actually account for the problem you've mentioned in a real way but, instead, a contrived one: it decides "this ruleset is right" and has to hope a large enough proportion agrees with it. If the MBR published "items-on" tomorrow, tournaments would still be hosted with items-off. And that's the point, really: this methodology of legitimizing tournaments exists with or without the MBR.

Now, consider some of the negatives of something like the MBR: you can't host tournaments which stray even slightly from the ruleset, or your tournament is not legitimate, because the MBR, the faux-authority, has decided so. In other words, when the majority agrees with the faux-authority, it becomes an actual authority which cannot be argued with.

Moreover, and in the first place, there are issues with something as elitist as a small group of players getting together and deciding on what's the "best" way to play.

And this.

No, the fact is that, if those unfair rules arise from an individual TO, without an authoritative body, we would have no issue with telling the TO to **** off. What are we supposed to do when we have an authoritative body that makes a ruleset which is obviously bad, but which the majority agrees with?

And this, are all really good points. I don't see an issue with players deciding for themselves whether or not a tournament is legitimate based on the TOs rules that they see. But at the same time, I think there should be a skeletal ruleset, like a base, that tournaments should be based off of (for example, no items, no stages like Hyrule, Flatzone, etc.) I think that for competitive play, something like this should be necessary.

When we get to stickier issues (wobbling, RC, Brinstar, Mute City, etc), those decisions should, in fact, be up to individual TOs. I'm still in favor of some universal ruleset, even if it is one that only establishes a few things.

EDIT: And you are very, very fun to read posts from. I like that you focus on points, instead of mentioning extraneous things that have nothing to do with nothing (like people seem to have a habit of doing in an argument). Discussions with you must be very enlightening.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I mean, when it comes down to it, I don't really give a **** but I just wish the Brawl kids would stop ****ing embarrassing us.

 

[Kal]

I don't see an issue with players deciding for themselves whether or not a tournament is legitimate based on the TOs rules that they see. But at the same time, I think there should be a skeletal ruleset, like a base, that tournaments should be based off of (for example, no items, no stages like Hyrule, Flatzone, etc.) I think that for competitive play, something like this should be necessary.

When we get to stickier issues (wobbling, RC, Brinstar, Mute City, etc), those decisions should, in fact, be up to individual TOs. I'm still in favor of some universal ruleset, even if it is one that only establishes a few things.

We're essentially in agreement here. My point is merely that this "skeletal ruleset" will arise on its own. If the MBR never came into existence, tournaments with Hyrule legal would still be panned.

However, it's important to realize that, when the skeleton comes in naturally, it can still be discussed, at least in my opinion. Players will acknowledge that the one "Hyrule on" tournament is just "weird," not "illegitimate." Allowing for such discussion is important: if we are wrong about something, such a tournament may reveal so.

Also important is to realize that this "skeleton" is essentially a line of brokenness, and that line is quite subjective. Many players think that the current ruleset is the skeleton, while players like KishPrime and myself think that the current ruleset is far too liberal in its stage bans. Again, the existence of an authority makes this a problem.

EDIT: And you are very, very fun to read posts from. I like that you focus on points, instead of mentioning extraneous things that have nothing to do with nothing (like people seem to have a habit of doing in an argument). Discussions with you must be very enlightening.

Thanks. Some people think that the way I argue and discuss makes me "impossible to argue with." But I think I do a decent job of remaining on point, open-minded, and fair to the people I discuss things with. As a general rule, I try to actually learn other viewpoints, if not to become a more well-rounded person, at least so that I can actually win an argument or two. Although Your Mileage May Vary as to whether any argument on the internet is ever truly won.

But, I can also rant and rave with the best of them.

 

[Ripple]

I find it hilarious M2K cites AZ as creating the URC with the intention of banning MK.

the URC was created like 6 months ago and 6 months ago AZ was anti ban.

many people converted to pro-ban from simply viewing John#'s charts and my popularity collection.