What does it take to be banned?

[Violence]

So, in light of the MK bannings of Brawl, I got to thinking, what if things had turned out differently in the past year? Would we ever see a character in banning, given the right conditions?

If a bair camping puff(I don't want this to turn into a HBox hate thread, so let's keep this hypothetical and anonymous) won every national between Genesis and Genesis 2? If a laser camping Fox did so? Infinitely perfect planking Sheik/Puff? Wobble Climbers as the best player? Would we ever ban a character if these things became the answer to Melee? Discuss.

 

[Meljin]

I wouldn't care, but the Melee history isn't the same as the Brawl history.

Let me explain :
At least King, Mango and Hbox created the Puff metagame we have.
Masashi, Chillin, Pc Chris [...] and way other created the Fox metagame we have.

Let's talk about MK now.
Mew2king created the MK metagame he had until he "died".

We would say that M2k's MK was somewhat distusting to watch, but he put a lot of work in that Metaknight, that he tried to evolve years after years.
Yes, he saw from the very beginning that he was overpowered, but I can guess that without M2K, MK may not be banned today.

Sorry for this long explaining, but I'll resume my thinkings ; I would be against banning a character because a player worked hard on him (if Peach was banned because of Armada for instance), but if we ban an overpowered character, and if this character is not mine, I wouldn't mind. (yeah, I'm selfish.)

 

[KirbyKaze]

A huge amount of people want to ban wobbling without it being a super centralizing force.

You tell me what would happen lol.



edit:

Fox would go untouched because he's "hard to play" and too many people play him and we'd be unwilling to ban him outright. We'd maybe get the stage list reduced a bit, so big stages would be out so Fox couldn't camp as hard (assuming it was super broken and overpowering) but maybe not. The rest of them (Puff, ICs, Sheik, whatever other examples you wanna use) would have restrictions placed on their respective overpowering tactics (LGLs for Sheik and Puff, wobbling ban for ICs).

 

[Iron Dragon]

We wouldn't ban things because we're not big crybaby ****ies and we learn how to adapt to characters or think of some kind of new strategy where we can win. Simply put, Melee players don't just give up when the going gets too tough for us. We know there's always that extra hour we can put into the game to make us be that much better. That one little thing that we never realized we could do in a matchup that allows us to win.

Even as "gay" as Hungrybox's Jiggs style was, people eventually found the way to play Fox correctly, and even PP with Falco in a matchup that was almost always unanimously in Jiggs' favor until PP came along. It goes to show how much time we REALLY put into the game, and for that reason I don't think a character will ever be banned. I'm not trying to be biased here or bash Brawl really, I'm just stating the truth as I've seem to have seen it by players of both communities.

I think also that the mechanics of our game allows for more flexibility within characters and is always why we're finding new things and another reason for why a character won't ever be banned.

 

[keeper]

Fox is easy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I would add that Sheik's planking is pretty easy to beat. Just about every character can steal the edge from her really easily so I don't see how it would ever be possible for something like that to be problematic. Same kind of applies to Fox's laser camping; there are too many characters with comparable speed to him. Puff's planking might be an issue but still hasn't been tested in a tournament environment so until somebody uses it and it ruins the current metagame I don't really care about commenting on it.

Half the reason Metaknight is such a hot topic is that he's the only good character in a garbage game filled with garbage characters.

Fortunately, we have a good game with a bunch of good characters.

 

[keeper]

Don't we kind of have "don't stall indefinitely" rule anyway?

 

[Iron Dragon]

I would add that Sheik's planking is pretty easy to beat. Just about every character can steal the edge from her really easily so I don't see how it would ever be possible for something like that to be problematic. Half the reason Metaknight is such a hot topic is that he's the only good character in a garbage game filled with garbage characters.

Fortunately, we have a good game with a bunch of good characters.

I'd like to quote this for the rest of my life.

As I always say, Metaknight is a Melee character in a Brawl engine lawl

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

i dont think stalling and planking fall under the same category...

stalling implies a character can't be interrupted (Peach's bomber thing she does on FD/FOD or puff's rising pound)

sheiks planking game is alot easier to interrupt because it doesnt involve jumping off the stage and risking a stock

 

[Shadic]

Melee's top tiers have weaknesses. And the Melee engine is versatile and combo-oriented enough to change momentum fairly easily. Brawl's engine is more like tag, except Metaknight in hypothetical has a jetpack and a whip.

As I always say, Metaknight is a Melee character in a Brawl engine lawl

This is untrue. Brawl Metaknight in a Melee engine (Project M is close enough for comparison) is very, very stupid.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Don't we kind of have "don't stall indefinitely" rule anyway?

Tell that to Amsah. Or Armada. Or hungrybox. Or teh_spammerer. Or s0ft. Or... so forth and so on.

I don't really feel "don't stall" rules are competitive because they basically say, "try to win, but not by too much!" Recent research shows that a few iconic stalls we used to have a ban on aren't actually infinite stalls anyway (Puff's rising Pound) and the others have been removed either by the stage list shrinking (Gun Camping on Corneria is gone, Peach Bomber at the bottom of Fourside is gone, etc) or are easy to deal with.

Other than M2K's apocalyptic "ban Puff's planking before it ruins the game because it's broken", I'd be very surprised if there was another (humanly possible) stall that our top characters can't beat through either smarts or gayness.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

He would have to take more than half of the prize money, be the most dominant character in all levels of play, and be really gay and stupid.

 

[Iron Dragon]

This is untrue. Brawl Metaknight in a Melee engine (Project M is close enough for comparison) is very, very stupid.

I guess? How though? MK can combo more than other characters, he can gimp characters, he can recover from multiple angles like most good Melee characters can and has a TON of versatility.

Anyways yeah, KK is definitely right. Stuff like Sheik's shino stall is great no doubt but not game breaking. We've seen plenty of times when people grab the edge between her vanishes and she kills herself or times when she gets upsmashed by Fox because she has to recover back onto the stage, etc etc.

I feel like I have more to say about banned stuff but can't think of it. I'll just get back to it later I suppose.

 

[JPOBS]

The only thing it seems to take to be banned is a circlejerk of the community who hates a specific thing or think its "gay", regardless of whether it is in fact game-breaking.

Thats about it.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

^^^^^^

so true

 

[Massive]

The only thing it seems to take to be banned is a circlejerk of the community who hates a specific thing or think its "gay", regardless of whether it is in fact game-breaking.

Thats about it.

The only thing a ban does is speak volumes about the community that bans it.

It's true of all of the banned things in melee as well, you can discern a lot about a smasher by asking what his feelings about Mute City or Corneria are.

 

[Mew2King]

it takes me

so far ive gotten banned / banned at

-mlg
-Unity redcard
-my character for winning too much
-my scrooging tactic i invented

 

[Shadic]

I guess? How though? MK can combo more than other characters, he can gimp characters, he can recover from multiple angles like most good Melee characters can and has a TON of versatility.

He has the best recovery in the game in Brawl already, and his recovery compared to the Melee roster is absurd. He's incredibly safe essentially always if played well, his Brawl physics would make him incredibly difficult to combo, and he really doesn't have any issue killing or gimping.

His two weak points would be that he lacks a projectile, and that he can theoretically die like everybody else.

 

[Mew2King]

fyi, mk is overrated as hell, but the current ruleset (which japan and europe don't use because they are smarter) caters to him, because BBR kept voting to keep rulesets with mk at his best (small time limit, every ******** stage on) and complaining that mk was overpowered with those rules. When I released polls in BBR to change the timer and change the stages, both were voted down by -- you guessed it -- the same members that wanted to ban MK. They made their intentions ****ing obvious

after BBR tried to ban mk SIX TIMES, (saying it was the "final poll" each time for the last few times, but never passing), a few BBR members (pretty much the pro-ban members) got together and created a group called Unity ruleset, formerly known as the BBR-RC (bbr ruleset committee). They basically formed this to try to ban MK again, and since everyone in the community is selfish newbs it passed. Now the community's gonna be split

I also suggest watching this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwG1t1DExXc

that video MikeHaze made will explain a lot too

 

[Thoraxe]

It sounds like brawl kids just like to whine about their game because it wasn't created to be played competitively... at all (Slips) Sure melee wasn't created to be competitive either, but we got lucky with a more complex, better designed fighter. Nothing is too overpowered from what i've seen in melee so far, and the game has been around for a while now, so i think its safe to assume no character is flat out broken. Stage bans are a completely different story, which i don't think is up for discussion on here anyways.

 

[Mew2King]

everyone should watch that video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwG1t1DExXc

and Like it, then please Share it on facebook as your status

 

[the_CAM_factor]

hmm interesting video i wasnt aware of how the ban came to pass. m2k do you see any possible chars in melee being bannable?

 

[Pi]

"planking jiggs"

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

The only thing a ban does is speak volumes about the community that bans it.

It's true of all of the banned things in melee as well, you can discern a lot about a smasher by asking what his feelings about Mute City or Corneria are.

I actually like Corneria, but maybe's that's just because I play Ness.

 

[CableCho57]

wait a second so there is the brawl backroom AND a unity ruleset committee?

i'm so confused, whats the difference between the two? was the second one created to overthrow the bbr?

 

[JPOBS]

the bbr is a collection of all the best minds in the community, a collection of the most knowledgable players and best players

the URC is just a collection of the TOs, regardless of their in-game credentials.

 

[CableCho57]

but what authority does the urc have over the bbr? they seem to have come out of no where

doesnt a group like that, that has the power the change the ruleset for all tourneys, be approved by the community first or something?

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

M2K is mad salty, real talk.

Are you just going to give up Brawl or switch mains?

 

[Mew2King]

planking jiggs doesn't need to be banned; a ledge grab limit (called cliffhangers, it's an end-of-game-stat which means ledge grabs) being in place would help though. But it's irrelevent since no one does it, but i DO think it is pretty broken with jigglypuff

on stage id say falco is definitely the best

fox and jiggs are the best in teams by far

sheik's 4th best, but i think she's way better than anyone below her

marth might be 5th, altho im starting to see the great potential of ice climbers with desyncing and 0-death grabs. Peach is about same level also


im only going to tourneys where mk is legal, and if those are rare, then so will be my attendance

 

[JPOBS]

the URC don't really have any real authority at all. Their claim to authority is "well, we are the ones hosting the tournaments, we get to decide the rules whether you like it or not, because you can't do anything about it anyway"

Combine this with the fact that if you don't use the "unity ruleset" your tournaments have no chance of being stickied in the tourny listing forum (another arbitrary rule)

So brawl is pretty much a circlejerk right now where 14 people (all non-MK mains) decided that they are ban metaknight and tell everyone else to **** off.

 

[Mew2King]

but what authority does the urc have over the bbr? they seem to have come out of no where

doesnt a group like that, that has the power the change the ruleset for all tourneys, be approved by the community first or something?

pretty much ill summarize it for you

amount of MK players to non MK players is like 20 to 80

so with that said, most people, even if they don't care much either way, are going to vote to what benefits them, which is to get rid of the character, even if he doesn't deserve to be

if someone sends you a link to a poll, you can easily vote Yes, it takes no time or effort at all, and if enough people do what you do (very likely) then you can have it much easier from that point onwards

most of the brawl community are pretty much whiney little kids that complain untill they get their way, and in that community, that tactic actually works wonders


Jpobs - pretty much, yeah

 

[Mew2King]

wait a second so there is the brawl backroom AND a unity ruleset committee?

i'm so confused, whats the difference between the two? was the second one created to overthrow the bbr?

to be perfectly honest, and I would bet ANYTHING this is accurate: after failing six times to ban MK in polls in BBR, a few super pro ban members of BBR got together and created the URC, formerly known as the BBR-RC (ruleset committee). Then these guys kept bringing in more pro-ban members and TOs to the URC, until it was guaranteed that MK would be banned with their ruleset, which is pretty much the only thing most of them were after. One of the members there (i think AZ) has power the mod power on smashboards (something like that) to sticky tourneys or not, and he said anyone that doesn't use Unity will not be stickied. It's an abuse of power from a small group of members, who honestly deserve no power at all. People who don't deserve decision making power are now able to get it a lot. It's pretty much exactly like mikehaze described

 

[mesa23]

to be perfectly honest, and I would bet ANYTHING this is accurate: after failing six times to ban MK in polls in BBR, a few super pro ban members of BBR got together and created the URC, formerly known as the BBR-RC (ruleset committee). Then these guys kept bringing in more pro-ban members and TOs to the URC, until it was guaranteed that MK would be banned with their ruleset, which is pretty much the only thing most of them were after. One of the members there (i think AZ) has power the mod power on smashboards (something like that) to sticky tourneys or not, and he said anyone that doesn't use Unity will not be stickied. It's an abuse of power from a small group of members, who honestly deserve no power at all. People who don't deserve decision making power are now able to get it a lot. It's pretty much exactly like mikehaze described

kinda reminds me of harry potter

the bbr is the ministry of magic and the urc are the deatheaters infiltrating and taking over that ****

 

[Shadic]

So brawl is pretty much a circlejerk right now where 14 people (all non-MK mains) decided that they are ban metaknight and tell everyone else to **** off.

And something like 75% of the community.

 

[kevo]

Unless the is a dramatic shift in the metagame, I don't think any Melee character will ever be banned. Metaknight was banned because all the top players play him and Metaknight wins all the tournaments. In Melee, the 5 top players main Falco, Peach, Fox, Marth, and Jigglypuff -- 5 different characters (please don't turn this into a "who is the top 5 players" thread, you get my point). Fox and Falco are top tier, but they are technically demanding and have vulnerabilities to exploit. When was the last time a Fox, the "best character" won a national?

I think M2K is right to an extent. I think certain members of the Brawl community are just butthurt that he wins everything. It's a combination of mentality of players and the tilt of the game. Every time a new change in the metagame happens and everyone thinks it's "gay", top players adapt to the changes and learn to keep up, rather than call shenanigans and say that x should be banned. Additionally, Melee as a game gives players the potential to do that.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

to be perfectly honest, and I would bet ANYTHING this is accurate: after failing six times to ban MK in polls in BBR, a few super pro ban members of BBR got together and created the URC, formerly known as the BBR-RC (ruleset committee). Then these guys kept bringing in more pro-ban members and TOs to the URC, until it was guaranteed that MK would be banned with their ruleset, which is pretty much the only thing most of them were after. One of the members there (i think AZ) has power the mod power on smashboards (something like that) to sticky tourneys or not, and he said anyone that doesn't use Unity will not be stickied. It's an abuse of power from a small group of members, who honestly deserve no power at all. People who don't deserve decision making power are now able to get it a lot. It's pretty much exactly like mikehaze described

It's a conspiracy!

 

[standardtoaster]

Let's ban pichu.

 

[The Tycon]

i definitely think the master hand glitch should be banned.

 

[Sinji]

MetaKnight was not only banned because top players won tournaments with him. He was banned because of his attributes in the game itself. With proper Directional Influence and Momentum Cancel, MetaKnight can be very hard to KO. He has the fastest shield roll in the game. He has the ability to glide twice. His tornado attack has a lot of priority. And on top of that, he has four ways of recovering back to the stage. Although a lot of people were disappointed at the fact that MetaKnight was banned, it was the right choice.

Their has been a lot of discussion about fox being banned because of his infinite combos. But he can not use his infinite combo on every single character in Melee. Woobling with IC'S shouldn't be banned. It takes a lot of precision to pull off a move like that.

I still think IC'S grab combo on brawl is far worse then woobling on Melee. lol

 

[Bones0]

There have been approximately 0 serious discussions about Fox being banned in Melee.