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Weekly Character Discussion: Falcon, the manliest character in the game

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A2ZOMG

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I'm not saying you're wrong Ayato (because you're mostly right) but it is my experience that Falcon's Dash attack actually has good priority. IIRC, only slightly less than the Falcon kick. I've canceled a number of projectiles with it, and I've clashed against many attacks on the ground with it. I think this actually clashes with the Falcon kick (but doesn't go through the Mach Tornado on the other hand).

It's usable since it's probably Falcon's least awkward option from a Dash. Not great, but what else are you going to do when you're Falcon?

I'd agree Peach is definitely better than Falcon, but I doubt Ivysaur is. Even Falcon can cancel Razor leaf by attacking it. Ivysaur also is worse at doing damage, and it is also pretty lousy when it comes to kill options. Plus, it just dies too early if it goes a mere 20 feet away from the stage, and this, you must also realize severely hurts its ability to ledgeguard, whereas Falcon is definitely quite fine at ledgeguarding because of the good distance he can jump from the stage.

And btw, there were more openings for Falcon Punches in Melee Tenki. You could D-air into one at like 50%, or you could ledgeguard with them since air dodging was different back then. =(

At least the Falcon Punch is good against Snake's recovery.
 

Wogrim

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All the numbers are post numbers in this thread that I'm responding to, as quoting all the posts would make my post huge.

#1
Yay for being voted manliest.
Yes his jab is awesome, and the unexpectedness of it sometimes leads to moves that don't combo out of it but your opponent was too surprised to avoid it.

#2
Most of those will fail miserably on real people because NAir has bad priority and you have to wait till you are pretty close to sweetspot with the Knee, which gives the opponent more time to hit you or dodge before then.
Side-B is pretty unsafe because if you miss you die, its priority isn't very good, and the sound it makes at the start of the move gives it away so that a person who know's Falcon's moves will just reflexively dodge any time they hear it (causing you to die if over a pit).

#3
Without going into any details (there is a thread that hasn't gotten a sticky that has collected good killing percent data), rest assured that DSmash, FSmash, USmash, Nipple, UTilt, and offstage NAirs, UAirs, and Falcon Dives all kill at very reasonable percents.
Falcon Kick vs projectiles doesn't do too well since it clanks with a bunch of the ones it doesn't beat, stopping you right where you would have if you had gotten hit, which means an opponent can follow up even if you don't get hitstun.

#5
Nipple does kill as well as an uncharged DSmash, but to land it on someone on the ground you have to eat major landing lag, so if you miss you get punished, and it doesn't have much range so in the air you might as well use Knee most of the times you'd consider using Nipple, since Knee still kills better.

#10
DThrow chaingrab? Since when?
2 pages for a character does not make a good guide.... is this whole post sarcasm or just the last bit?

#11
It's nice that he won, but way too much Raptor Boost, which gets shield-grabbed easily. Against IC getting grabbed is death if they get the chaingrab right, so you have to attribute his win to Melee1's mistakes.

#14
If you mean offstage up-B, it will fail most of the time unless you bait an airdodge or lower-priority attack first.
If you mean up-B to knock someone offstage, yes it works but it needs to be used defensively or after a jab or two.

#18
USmash does KO, but the hitbox isn't too good on it since it is mostly in front of you and doesn't protect you from aerial assault too well, since opponents can just DI behind it. Also, the first kick will sometimes knock the opponent out of reach of the second kick, which will at best do a lot less damage and knockback (it hits like a jab) and at worst get you punished hard.

#21
I'll take hitstun over a chaingrab any day.

#22
DTilt has too much startup time to actually combo from jab, even though it does land often, and it definately doesn't combo to Knee.
His Tilts and BAir are only underrated by people who havn't seen them in action.

#24
He can't officially combo, but there are several situations in which you can predict your opponent's response and punish, and even though you can't chase to combo, you can chase to bait a move and then punish (example: DThrow, pretend to chase, opponent airdodges or FAirs/NAirs/DAirs, Falcon Dive them)

#27
Yes I would agree that he is better than Sonic, and I think Sonic is often considered not-so-bad just because it is hard to distinguish between some of his moves and it is not very well known how to counter some of them.

#28
UAir sends your opponent forward if you hit them before your feet reach the top, and backward if at the top or above; I'm not sure what you think is so hard to figure out how to DI.
If you bait an airdodge, you may land a Knee, but your UAir and Falcon Dive are the only moves they should be trying to airdodge, as the low priority on the other moves makes them very beatable for most characters. If you do bait an aerial, then your opponent will usually be able to recover before they get Knee'd, unless they suffer landing lag.

#30
Yes he is chaingrabbed pretty easily by IC, Falco, Marth, and Pikachu (I might be forgetting someone), which are all in his 10 hardest matchups.
DAir is situational due to it's startup time, which means you have to anticipate where your opponent is going to be by the time it comes out. It's doable, but difficult, and is not very safe to use unless right after your first or second jump since you'll fall a ways during the move.

#31
No it isn't a guaranteed death, but it is very unsafe in almost every situation (the opponent grabs the ledge before you, you miss, they hit you first, or they airdodge).

#33
Falcon Kick getting dodged at relatively close range isn't so bad, although they can sometimes dash attack or dash grab you afterwards, but shielding pwns the Kick since it slows you down and makes the distance less far, meaning you can often get FSmashed in the back.
People often shield it instead of spot-dodging it because if they don't know the timing they will usually spot-dodge too early and get hit. They usually won't roll behind you in fear of a reverse, but if they roll away they can punish the ending lag, or they can jump over it and punish. Falcon Punch is rarely safe, and when I'm not punished it's usually just because the character I was playing against jumped and tried to DAir me, but missed because the Falcon Punch moves me forward.
As a mindgame, Falcon Punch works alright if they are trying to recover, as they are scared to death of it and will sometimes suicide trying to avoid it.

#34
I might be a Brawl noob, but at least I main Falcon. Also, the SBR has had this for a week already, so they probably don't have much else to say anyways.

#35
It shouldn't work more than a cycle or two, and if it did it was probably due to the opponent underestimating Falcon's jab or not knowing how to escape.

#36
Falcon is cool, but I havn't resigned him to bottom tier.

#37
Dash attack makes a decent approach, and the shield pushback will push off opponents near the edge, making it safer than some of your other options.
Dash grab>dthrow>utilt/spotdodge>further followup ---- That only will work at low percents and your opponent DI's back towards you, which shouldn't be the case because they should be expecting followup and should be DI'ing away, since none of Falcon's throws kill.
Running autocancelled DAirs usually do alright vs shields and spotdodges because they land you too far away for quick enough punishment, but they get interrupted by attacks fairly easily.
Falcon Kicks are alright, but are best as punishment instead of approaches; shield and roll backwards pwn it, and even if the roll doesn't put them out of range, they will get hit with the weaksauce hitbox and punish you immediately during your ending lag, which outdoes the hitstun.
For spacing, I have similar trouble, as the initial Dash animation plus sliding will sometimes put you farther than you want to go so you have to walk. As for sliding to a stop at a specific point, with enough practice you'll get the timing down to know how far before where you want to be you have to stop your dash.
For attack speed, jab is AMAZING and almost unpunishable if you just throw out one to see if your opponent dodges/rolls, or to interrupt your opponent's move.
Falcon Dive is easily countered by spotdodge/airdodge/roll, leaving you stuck in the air with nothing but landing lag to look forward to. You shouldn't use it unless you are 90% sure your opponent is going to be shielding or performing a lower-priority move.
I wouldn't recommend reserving the UAir, since it is such a useful move for racking up damage. If you think you need it to kill, spam some jabs before you use it.
Nipple kills at surprisingly low percents, but is extremely difficult to hit with intentionally (a lot of my hits with it are attempts to hit with the feet hitbox, but the opponent jumps or I time it wrong). I consider it a bonus to DAir, since the Knee is stronger and has similarly poor range.
I'm disappointed you've said nothing about the usefulness of his tilts, smashes, or Falcon Dive, but oh well.

#40
I'm not sure if it's common knowledge that you can DI during the reverse but not the normal aerial Falcon Punch. Either way, yes if you keep in mind that you can DI 'backwards' (forwards compared to your original facing), you can destroy someone who was trying to interrupt your punch but can't reach you anymore.

#41
Falcon Punch still makes a great ledgegaurd, but requires precise timing.

========================================================

Some short stuff that I think needs to be said here, even though it's been said elsewhere:

UTilt is a kill move, hits people hanging on the ledge, and hits people on short platforms above you (side platforms of Battlefield, side platforms of Lylat, don't remember what else)

DTilt seems to like to shieldpoke at characters' feet. It is also nice for ducking certain FAirs, and is good for poking.

FTilt is also good for poking, and an up-angled one is good against certain characters trying to SH approach you.

FSmash's leanback allows it to counter poked aerials such as Kirby's BAir extremely well.

Jab-Jab leads to a lot of moves because people are afraid of getting hit by 20%+ infinite jabs, so they DI away and hold shield most of the time, and then roll away at earliest opportunity. You can punish the shield with Falcon Dive or a shield-poking DTilt, and you can also throw out FSmash, DSmash, or UTilt and it will sometimes poke through or you will hit them in the opening frames of the roll, or they will have tried to do a NAir or airdodge or something after the jabs and land with lag so they can't do anything. The back end of the roll can be punished with dash attack, dashing grab, Falcon Kick, or Raptor Boost.

NAir and UAir are your midair jabs; use them often. The 2 kicks on NAir make it harder for the opponent to dodge than UAir. Oh and all the jab followups pretty much work the same with NAir kick 1 on a grounded opponent, although since NAir combos to jab you might as well still do the jabs first anyways.

And Falcon Dive does great damage; use it often.

I'm probably forgetting stuff but oh well, this is a lengthy read already.
 

Yoshi Kirishima

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Hmm btw i noticed that Falcon's Knee, unsweetspotted, trips like 50% of the time, and i have a question... I know that if you're under like 70% or so, and you're in a falling position and hit the ground, you can't tech, roll, or attack in place, but the only thing you can do is stand back up. Idk if this is the same for tripping. if it is, then i think there'd be nice combos for Knee trip > an attack, a sweetspotted Knee to kill them, may be a Falcon Punch if its quick enough? It could help him a lot IMO if this works.
 

Wogrim

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Hmm btw i noticed that Falcon's Knee, unsweetspotted, trips like 50% of the time, and i have a question... I know that if you're under like 70% or so, and you're in a falling position and hit the ground, you can't tech, roll, or attack in place, but the only thing you can do is stand back up. Idk if this is the same for tripping. if it is, then i think there'd be nice combos for Knee trip > an attack, a sweetspotted Knee to kill them, may be a Falcon Punch if its quick enough? It could help him a lot IMO if this works.
You're thinking of the laser-lock type of bounce thing; the Knee trip is like the dash trip and gives the tripping sound (banana peel). It still will set you up for something sometimes, but you either have to do it fast or mindgame them since they can roll out of the way.

Edit: Oh and it only trips at low percents.
 

Ayato

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Yeah. I reckon Overswarm mentioned the tripping effect of the knee in his synopsis. I suppose some people find it useful to do the "YES!" Combo (Trip Knee>Falcon Dive) but I personally don't like this tactic. If it ever accidentally presents itself to me, though, I do capitalize. I just don't go looking out for it. Kneeing is sparse in my Falcon's game. Too hard to set up. The consequences of failure also outweigh the rewards of success, generally. Besides being able to say "Did you feel the justice in that knee just now?" I suppose nothing can outweigh that consequence. Jokes aside, I don't like kneeing.
 

SmashBrother2008

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#27
Yes I would agree that he is better than Sonic, and I think Sonic is often considered not-so-bad just because it is hard to distinguish between some of his moves and it is not very well known how to counter some of them.
Sonic is also much more popular. His fanbase puts up a good fight.
 

Tenki

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Sonic is also much more popular. His fanbase puts up a good fight.
He isn't popular in places where people play to win, though.

The few actual Sonic mains tend to catch most people off guard though, and I'm tired of winning just because people don't know the matchup.

The Sonic mains have found ways around... most glaring problems ;l
 

Ayato

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I smell a digression!

Is there really so little to say about Falcon? Even the BRoomers didn't get much discussion done before releasing the topic. I thought there would be at least a poorly organized essay's worth.
 

Yoshi Kirishima

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok17
Hmm btw i noticed that Falcon's Knee, unsweetspotted, trips like 50% of the time, and i have a question... I know that if you're under like 70% or so, and you're in a falling position and hit the ground, you can't tech, roll, or attack in place, but the only thing you can do is stand back up. Idk if this is the same for tripping. if it is, then i think there'd be nice combos for Knee trip > an attack, a sweetspotted Knee to kill them, may be a Falcon Punch if its quick enough? It could help him a lot IMO if this works.

You're thinking of the laser-lock type of bounce thing; the Knee trip is like the dash trip and gives the tripping sound (banana peel). It still will set you up for something sometimes, but you either have to do it fast or mindgame them since they can roll out of the way.

Edit: Oh and it only trips at low percents.
Ok got it :) thx.

and btw there are like 2 giant super posts in this thread... lol
 

Browny

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ugh theres no other threads to ask this...

what is up with CF's smash attack while he is holding a star rod. Is he the only character in the game who can release the wave of stars? if you dont know what i mean, test it in training, input a double fsmash like you would with Link/Toon link... its crazy.
 

A2ZOMG

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Melee, all you had to do was hold the A button while Smashing the star rod...
 

Wogrim

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ugh theres no other threads to ask this...

what is up with CF's smash attack while he is holding a star rod. Is he the only character in the game who can release the wave of stars? if you dont know what i mean, test it in training, input a double fsmash like you would with Link/Toon link... its crazy.
Melee, all you had to do was hold the A button while Smashing the star rod...
Yeah you can just hold it, although I didn't know Falcon was the only person who could do it.
 

Kino

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one thing i should mention is the Knee isnt actualy as bad as people say it is, it can be difficult to sweetspot in certain combos, but it is still very much possible to hit with. if it sweetspots its still one of the best aerial kill moves in the game. amazing horizontal trajectory with minimum vertical height.. sometimes i've noticed them go down a little under the stage from a good hit. and if you mess it up it can still result in a couple of nice hits and set up a kill move.

He also has a little chaingrab with fthrow which is always good.
How can a a character with an aerial game like Falcons be regarded worst in the game? hes actualy fast enough and he has enough priority on certain moves like uair to actualy function, unlike some of the characters hes compared with. and his ftilt is great, dtilt is also pretty nice.

I actualy dont agree with people who rank him bottom, hes better than Ganon and Yoshi and Sonic for definate imo, and when we start seeing more skillfull Falcons at tournys, i think hell rise places for sure
 

Ayato

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The knee is still a great kill move, but it usually only connects with a situational combo or by some huge mistake. Like, I was able to nair directly into a knee in a single jump because my target bounced off a platform and fell right into the knee. It was a complete accident but completely inescapable. The chances of me recreating this though are.....well, close to zero. When you talk about the knee, you're talking about an extremely situational move that has a small (smaller than Melee) sweetspot zone that is also fairly easily avoided.

Falcon's air game isn't phenomenal. In fact, while it's probably his strongest suit, it's still pretty much garbage. A smart opponent will keep a match completely grounded. In most scenarios (say Olimar, Pikachu, Metaknight, Lucas, Kirby), his opponents are difficult to hit when they're on the ground and Falcon is in the air. This is due to a combination of his balls priority and high short hop height. His poor ground game makes it difficult to put opponents in the air from the ground, so anyone with a better ground game than Falcon (most of the cast, actually) already has a distinct advantage over him simply because of that. Even when his opponents are in the air, it's difficult to kill. The knee isn't reliable. Bair kills at higher percents, but it's difficult getting there. Nair has a funky angle but ends up being a decent move. Situational, though. Uair is his shining hope, but this gets spammed too much to make it a constantly reliable kill move. Dair works for juggling if you hit them with the nipples, but it launches too far to continue a combo or follow up at all, even with Falcon's ground speed. Nipple hits with the dair are also fairly difficult, at least in my opinion, though not as difficult as a knee. Still, it's hard enough that I can't rely on it to be a kill move, either. He has a hard time gimping because of his garbage recovery as well, so basically he's unable to ever really finish an opponent off even if he manages to get him into kill percentages (which, I'll say again, is difficult in its own right).

Playing with Falcon is a CONSTANT uphill climb.

And in the defense of Yoshi, Sonic, and Ganon, Yoshi and Sonic have decent outlets for recovery. All three have at least WORKABLE priority (though none of them are particularly good in this department). With the exception of Sonic, all have some reliable method of killing (I've found Yoshi's uair to be an extremely good top killer, and his smashes and sex kick aren't bad either). Even Sonic has his dsmash and fairly decent off-the-edge play.

The fthrow chain grab works like...only so few times at such a low percent. It's really nothing to go absolutely bonkers about.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say the ftilt is great. It has decent reach, but the knockback has a low angle, so they just slide along the ground a short distance and retaliate immediately after the stun ends, which, unfortunately, is often too soon for Falcon to initiate another attack. Couple that with crap priority and we've got ourselves just a so-so move. I mean, it might be good for getting a little breathing room, but it's hardly anything to brag about.

Falcon will fair HORRIBLY at tournaments. There are just too many bad matchups for him, and generally if a matchup isn't even slightly in his favor, things would be VERY HEAVILY stacked against him (I mean matches will be ridiculously hard to win if a matchup generally connotes a disadvantage for Falcon). Olimar, Pikachu, and Metaknight are IMPOSSIBLY HARD to beat (and guess what, MK is extremely popular at tournaments).

He's bottom tier without a doubt. Until the metagame for brawl changes drastically (and by drastically, I mean finding the new wavedash, finding the new L-cancel, something that can COMPLETELY flip the tier list upside down. It'd have to be a major breakthrough), Falcon will remain bottom tier, low tier at best. He's just a bad, bad character. MAYBE not the worst, but he's really asking for it at times.

Mind, my remark about wavedashing and L-cancelling does not indicate that I have any expectation that either technique will return. In fact, I'm sure neither will. But I mean something revolutionary has to occur to change Falcon's tier standing.
 

Tenki

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One of my biggest problems with playing Falcon is his initial dash.

It covers such a great distance, but it tends to hurt me more than it helps because not only does he have a slow turn animation, but this commits him to the run without giving him any space to shield. This tends to be a problem when I try to do something like a close range (sliding) pshield into an attack, since I end up initial-dashing into the attack instead of shielding.

Do any actual Falcon mainers have anything to say about this? :l


-------
@Kino:
Sonic is alot more maneuverable and can cancel pretty much anything (his spindashes, momentum, whatever) giving him more openings for grabs, punishments, feints, etc. People can easily say he's worse than Falcon without having seen someone who has excellent control over him. Falcon's punishment game seems to have less ways to find openings, but generally pack a pawnch when the openings are there `.`;
-------
 

Ree301

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wait a tick...

Yeah you can just hold it, although I didn't know Falcon was the only person who could do it.
Sheik can do something similar, shooting only two stars instead of the wave...lol i think it's funny how most of us forget about the items due to their absence in competitive play.
 

Ree301

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I main C. Falcon with the utmost loyalty...and I have to say, it's an abusive relationship. But I have had time to grasp an effective play style. I bait and space like my stocks depend on it...cuz they do. The U-tilt leans back and sweeps the area in front of him for a better range and hitbox than an F-tilt, not to mention it's destructive power being far superior. Use of it at awkward timing moments is invaluble. And the lagless stomp, my dear there's some potential to be had there. Multiple dairs can be strung together on larger opponents and hell, they're lagless. Angelo Bangelo had a technique known as "rocking" which can be used to effectively put away long recovery opponents like R.O.B. and the like. The Justice Knee however...i can only find use for it to punish after a good bait or to attack apponents for a kill who decide to attack coming up off of a ledge. AIM IM me falcon mains, it's blessedbyfire301.
 

Ayato

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@ Tenki's post:

I said this already, Tenki, and I do agree that the sliding causes problems:

Ayato said:
Let's see...what else makes Falcon as bad as he currently is. Right. Speed. While Falcon's speed admittedly does come with its perks (following characters across the stage quickly, obviously) it does give him issues with spacing. His sliding stop is extremely long because of how fast he moves, so it makes it really difficult to get precise spacing out of his ground movement. His walking speed does help fine tune it, but it's still slow enough that it's hard to reach precise locations in proper time. I find that it's really difficult to get myself in range to Ftilt or Utilt without sliding headlong into the opponent. Maybe it's just me.
 

Tenki

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So... to get around it:
- full-tilt walk?
- create larger distance between you and your opponent?
 

Kino

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@ Tenki's post:

I said this already, Tenki, and I do agree that the sliding causes problems:

Ayato, i agree alot with the things you said, i was just trying to write about the positive sides of falcon. thats why i didnt cover some of the things you did, but great points.
 

Agi

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Captain Falcon is definitely the underdog of Brawl right now.
According to the premiere edition Brawl players guide, CF is just below Marth in overall score with a migthy 8 out of 10.
His scores are as follows
Offense: 8
Defense: 7
Projectile: -
Final Smash - 6
Throwing Ability - 10
Speed - 10

Captain Falcon is the only character in the guide to score a 10 in throwing ability, putting Dedede to shame. The best strategy of course is to chianthrow with his downthrow into a dashing grab, repeat. This can also be finished with a fair hit when they go off the edge.
Over b is also the perfect edgeguarding move. Seriously this guide loves it and it' s a guide so it can't be wrong. I mean it cost $20 who would publish something that cost $20 per book and was filled with incorrect information. Nobody would so this guide is right.
this is going to come back and haunt us years from now...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=177292
...and so it has.
 

Lionman

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Captain Falcon need awesome skill to play it, is a very fast character, good for 2 vs 2 because is hard to hit your parther if you dont want in 1 vs 1 is a bad character, but it looks like a powerfull warrior who is fighting a very strong enemy
 

talkingbeatles

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Sliding with Falcon is a problem. That's why I slow things down and typically just walk wherever I go. Walking into a f-smash or d-smash is pretty sexy.
It's all nonchalant and stuff...
 

SmashBrother2008

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i predict a c falcon comeback in a short amount of time. kind of like link in melee.
That is what I think. There are so many poeple who are interested in CF right now that there are as many posts in his discussion board as many higher tier characters. We just need some effort and practice to unlock his potential.

And, overtime. Poeple will begin to place a little higher in tourneys with CF than they do now. CF mains just need to get over ther difference between Melee Falcon and Brawl Falcon. I, myself, am very good with him. Unfortunatly I have never been able to enter a real tournament to help boost Falcon's ranking. Captain Falcon is just waiting in the wings right now, itching for a few good players to finally take him out on the battlefield and get a little lucky...
 

Ayato

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We just need some effort and practice to unlock his potential.
I don't believe I was clear enough when I said this before: Falcon has no potential as the game stands. What we need is a GLITCH or a revolutionary and strange mechanic to make Falcon better. Something bizarre and completely metagame altering, because as things stands, his options and the gross imbalance between Falcon and a foe he's at a "disadvantage" against is nigh insurmountable. Until we find some ridiculous new mechanic, Falcon is already relatively close to his limit, which, sadly, is bottom tier. I don't see any way you could refute this.
 

Wogrim

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I don't believe I was clear enough when I said this before: Falcon has no potential as the game stands. What we need is a GLITCH or a revolutionary and strange mechanic to make Falcon better. Something bizarre and completely metagame altering, because as things stands, his options and the gross imbalance between Falcon and a foe he's at a "disadvantage" against is nigh insurmountable. Until we find some ridiculous new mechanic, Falcon is already relatively close to his limit, which, sadly, is bottom tier. I don't see any way you could refute this.
I would agree that we're still at a disadvantage as the game stands, but without lots of playing we won't find anything new, so I don't see any reason to give up on Falcon.
 

Tenki

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Eh, Ike players don't seem to be too far away from this and they don't have AT's afaik.

Also, Mr. 3000, the most recent successful Sonic player who got 3rd in a large tourney... the Sonic boards scrutinized some of his vids and found that he didn't use AT's or any advanced stuff as done in the metagame discussions that we've had in the Sonic boards. He just had a simple yet effective playstyle.
 

Wogrim

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Eh, Ike players don't seem to be too far away from this and they don't have AT's afaik.

Also, Mr. 3000, the most recent successful Sonic player who got 3rd in a large tourney... the Sonic boards scrutinized some of his vids and found that he didn't use AT's or any advanced stuff as done in the metagame discussions that we've had in the Sonic boards. He just had a simple yet effective playstyle.
Mindgames much?
 

SmashBrother2008

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Eh, Ike players don't seem to be too far away from this and they don't have AT's afaik.

Also, Mr. 3000, the most recent successful Sonic player who got 3rd in a large tourney... the Sonic boards scrutinized some of his vids and found that he didn't use AT's or any advanced stuff as done in the metagame discussions that we've had in the Sonic boards. He just had a simple yet effective playstyle.
That is exactly what Sakurai wants. Smash bros games are meant to be played without glitches and most ATs. He played that way, and being that Brawl is best designed for that play, he won. And if you need to glitch out the game in order to win, go play Melee.
 

Doggalina

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That is exactly what Sakurai wants. Smash bros games are meant to be played without glitches and most ATs. He played that way, and being that Brawl is best designed for that play, he won. And if you need to glitch out the game in order to win, go play Melee.
Grah. I hate when people do this. L-cancel isn't a glitch. Proof: http://web.archive.org/web/19991117180837/http://smashbros.com/moves_advattacklanding.html

Wavedashing was programmed into the game; however, the creators never intended it to be used the way it was. If you want to play a game that forces you to play the way the designers intended, go play an MMO. And WDing actually helped balance the game. Luigi would've been even worse without it.

Aside from those two "glitches" (they're not), I can't think of any others.
 

Ayaz18

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That is exactly what Sakurai wants. Smash bros games are meant to be played without glitches and most ATs. He played that way, and being that Brawl is best designed for that play, he won. And if you need to glitch out the game in order to win, go play Melee.
omg dude seriously, then why the F*CK did he put in the auto cancel?

he just wanted to sell copies. If there was no online I bet that L-cancel would still be in brawl maybe even wavedashing.....maybe. Could you imagine some 10 year old playing this game loving it (cause of SSE) then tries to test his skills online thinking he can win only to be owned by some waveshining fox? what do you think he'll do? he's going to sell it, and nintendo loses sales, which hurt's Sakurai's chances at another Smash game.

this is why the basic L-cancel is removed, it's been in every smash game but this because Nintendo is in it for the money not for the core gamers, However I applaud Sakurai for trying to sneek in some pretty useless techs, so we could be somewhat satisfied, but that to could be to help sales.
 

Wogrim

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omg dude seriously, then why the F*CK did he put in the auto cancel?

he just wanted to sell copies. If there was no online I bet that L-cancel would still be in brawl maybe even wavedashing.....maybe. Could you imagine some 10 year old playing this game loving it (cause of SSE) then tries to test his skills online thinking he can win only to be owned by some waveshining fox? what do you think he'll do? he's going to sell it, and nintendo loses sales, which hurt's Sakurai's chances at another Smash game.

this is why the basic L-cancel is removed, it's been in every smash game but this because Nintendo is in it for the money not for the core gamers, However I applaud Sakurai for trying to sneek in some pretty useless techs, so we could be somewhat satisfied, but that to could be to help sales.
That wouldn't be an issue if there was a ranked matchmaking system.
As for sneaking in techs, I don't see any way that it would help sales, as 99% of the people who want to play Brawl competitively probably bought it within a week of its release regardless, so techs are often just situations that take paths through the code that the programmer probably didn't consider/intend. I'm trying to write a fighting game with basically Brawl gameplay (I'll have hitstun tweaked up for some combos of course) for a Senior Project and there's a ton of stuff to worry about.
 

Ayaz18

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That wouldn't be an issue if there was a ranked matchmaking system.
As for sneaking in techs, I don't see any way that it would help sales, as 99% of the people who want to play Brawl competitively probably bought it within a week of its release regardless, so techs are often just situations that take paths through the code that the programmer probably didn't consider/intend. I'm trying to write a fighting game with basically Brawl gameplay (I'll have hitstun tweaked up for some combos of course) for a Senior Project and there's a ton of stuff to worry about.
yeah........which is why Brawl was a sell out for the core

my noobish friends can't even get 20% on me in a melee 4 stock match, but in brawl they can kill me cause of the odd trip. Brawl is designed to be scrub friendly

and why would ranking system help noobs get into brawl's online easier? unless people with the same win/loss ratio get to face each other, but that would cost money and Nintendo is cheap and care about getting the sales, face it man Brawl isn't even a real smash game from a competitive standpoint.
 
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