We should update the Compendium of Knowledge thread

Lovage

Smash Hero
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#1
There's a lot of outdated or wrong terms listed in that thread, and since I think it's still an important resource for new players, we should update it fully to reflect SSBM in 2010.

idk if this is a job for the general community or MBR (lol)
but i really think someone should lead this project so we can have a nice, updated list of terms that are still important for today's melee game

"dash attack cancel" really? who calls it that lol, it's a boost grab

hitstun vs. hitlag - this should have its own section because of how many people mix up these two important terms

"reset" is horribly wrong/unimportant. it should refer to jab resets and moves like that which force you to stand up, not some street fighter ****

we need a new legal stage list picture too (that picture with the colors that showed what was legal) for the pound 4 ruleset and/or the traditional ruleset


lots of things like that and a bunch of new terms we should add
u guys can brainstorm
 

JPOBS

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#6
shai dropping, isai dropping, hurtbox, buffering with c-stick, OoS, fox trot, ledge stalling (and all its variations), double shien, multishine, gentleman, edge cancelling

DA Dash and sheild reflecting should be removed from pivoting and power sheilding respectively.

this thing is ancient lol.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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#7
Someone needs to do a thorough write-up on Smash DI and how to use it. Doraki's guide was okay at explaining it, but considering how important it is no one should read the entire guide and still have questions about how to DI. I remember I read it about 3-4 times before I understood you had to use the C-stick and not the control stick.

We could just get rid of the thread entirely and instead link to the Smash Wiki and then the veteran players who know what they are talking about can all just pick a page to add until all the gaps are filled in.
 

X1-12

Smash Champion
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#8
Someone needs to do a thorough write-up on Smash DI and how to use it. Doraki's guide was okay at explaining it, but considering how important it is no one should read the entire guide and still have questions about how to DI. I remember I read it about 3-4 times before I understood you had to use the C-stick and not the control stick.

We could just get rid of the thread entirely and instead link to the Smash Wiki and then the veteran players who know what they are talking about can all just pick a page to add until all the gaps are filled in.
I kinda think people don't really need to know the exact mechanics of SDI. If there was just a guide of basically how to use it, it would uncomplicate it for many people, but then if people wanted to know more they could use the Doraki Guide..


Also Perhaps there should be a Compendium of DI? with details of how to DI out of CGs or Mulit-hit moves like Ganon's D-smash
 

Lovage

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#9
yeah shai dropping is a pretty important term that should be updated

even tho i prefer the name running shield drop

it's a pretty versatile tool that gives you more options on platforms and makes you a bit trickier
 

Fortress | Sveet

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#10
Someone needs to do a thorough write-up on Smash DI and how to use it. Doraki's guide was okay at explaining it, but considering how important it is no one should read the entire guide and still have questions about how to DI. I remember I read it about 3-4 times before I understood you had to use the C-stick and not the control stick.
you might want to read it again then... you can't use the C-stick to SDI, you can only use it to ASDI.
 

KirbyKaze

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#13
I think we need a new term to describe all that crap that can force wakeup animations. One that's more inclusive because needles, lasers, Fox's Shine, and a few others can all cause the forced wakeup animations, not just jabs. Furthermore, not every character can jab reset, either, which makes jab reset somewhat misleading as a term.

Tap Reset maybe?
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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#14
we also can't call them thunder combos because you can combo with the move thunder as pichu.

tap wouldn't work because gannon's jab is like a tap and lasers aren't.

No jab reset is most commonly done with jabs and thats what the inventer or who ever named it and it sounds good, but if you think up a better name that's way cooler and fits go for it i'll use the term.
 

KirbyKaze

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#19
we also can't call them thunder combos because you can combo with the move thunder as pichu.

tap wouldn't work because gannon's jab is like a tap and lasers aren't.

No jab reset is most commonly done with jabs and thats what the inventer or who ever named it and it sounds good, but if you think up a better name that's way cooler and fits go for it i'll use the term.
You're aware that a lot of things cause forced wakeup depending on DI, right? If you ASDI a few of the weaker tilts down, you can have forced wakeup occur. People sometimes use this unintentionally.

Jab reset is a bad term. It's too narrow.

@ Ryzol: I am okay with forced wakeup if others are.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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#20
tap reset is just easy to say and isnt much different from what we already say... forced wakeup is too "politically correct" for day-to-day use.
 

X1-12

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#22
you could just call it [insert move here] reset/interrupt/get-up


laser interrupt / jab interrupt?


i think get up/ wake up sounds like the attack you do when attacking from the floor
 
Joined
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#24
Why don't we just call it what we've been calling it for years now? A reset. "Jab reset" is just a subset of that. I hear people saying "laser reset" and "shine reset" all the time too. I agree we need a bigger section on that...its pretty standard for combos these days.

Also Perhaps there should be a Compendium of DI? with details of how to DI out of CGs or Mulit-hit moves like Ganon's D-smash
Oh goodness would this be useful.
 

Magus420

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#28
I don't think I ever posted the details of how resets actually work.

If you are hit by an attack that does less than 7.00% while in the DownBound (bounce when you 1st hit the ground without teching) or DownWait (after the bounce when laying on the ground) actions you go into the DownDamage action during the knockback. This animation is 13 frames long (probably for all characters but I'm not positive).


If DownDamage ends while in the air you change actions to Fall (also canceling out any remaining hitstun you may have had), and you can jump/do whatever out of it or simply land on your feet if you touch the ground. This is very apparent on things like using a stale raptor boost or stale shine with Falco on a downed character, since the KB is powerful enough to send them far but is still able to do less than 7 dmg. They go flying upwards while in the fall animation and without hitstun.

A/S/DI upwards will help you get higher from the knockback and can be used to keep you in the air long enough for the animation to complete before landing and escape a reset. For whatever reason, you are allowed to A/S/DI non-tumble KBs with angles 0° or lower normally while in DownDamage. You normally can't A/SDI vertically or use any form of trajectory DI on them when on the ground.


If DownDamage ends while on the ground, however, you change actions to DownWait if you were still in hitstun or directly into DownStand if you were not. The former is what I would call an Option Tap Reset, and the latter an Optionless Tap Reset. If you are in DownWait you are forced to get up when hitstun ends, but you are also able to interrupt the animation with either a getup stand/roll/attack at any time before then.

For example, Fox's shine, Falco's laser, and Peach's jab 1 all have no knockback growth. The shine's KB is strong enough to stun all characters for 13+ frames, and so a reset will always be an OTR on all characters. The laser causes 12 or less stun on all characters and so the reset is always an OLTR. The jab causes 13+ stun for everyone that is Falco's weight or lighter and is an OTR on them, but 12 or less on everyone heavier and is an OLTR on those characters. For ones with KBG, Sheik's jab 1 and needles are an OLTR until they're around 40 or so depending on weight, and Jiggs' jab 1 is an OLTR until near 100 (really stupid).
tldr:

-The reset attack needs to do less than 7.00% damage
-They need to be back touching the ground after 13 frames of knockback. Because of this, A/S/DIing upwards will help you to escape a reset
-If hitstun is 12 frames or less they are forced into a stand getup only. If the stun is 13+ they have the option of standing, rolling, or attacking as their forced getup
 

DippnDots

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#29
Why not just call it neutral reset, as it causes the character to stand back into a neutral position? Then you can put on stunna shades and be like, i just newset you biznitch

Also Perhaps there should be a Compendium of DI? with details of how to DI out of CGs or Mulit-hit moves like Ganon's D-smash
man why you gotta keep the black man down, it's hard enough for him without spoiling his tricks
 

Signia

Smash Lord
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#30
Force wakeup sounds like something Darth Vader can do in Soul Calibur IV. But it's easy to understand and doesn't make it sound like a glitch (wavedash...). I already call it that.

@Magus I'd just call them Force Wakeup / Force Neutral Wakeup

Aerial control vs DI
Yeah I don't know why we call it DI. Aerial Control in other fighting games is pretty similar to normal DI. It might have something to with already being able to control yourself in the air while not in hitstun. I guess "Influence" rather than "Control" works best because the effect of DI is subtle... you're not really gaining control like you are in some other FGs.
 
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#31
Force wakeup sounds like something Darth Vader can do in Soul Calibur IV. But it's easy to understand and doesn't make it sound like a glitch (wavedash...). I already call it that.

@Magus I'd just call them Force Wakeup / Force Neutral Wakeup


Yeah I don't know why we call it DI. Aerial Control in other fighting games is pretty similar to normal DI. It might have something to with already being able to control yourself in the air while not in hitstun. I guess "Influence" rather than "Control" works best because the effect of DI is subtle... you're not really gaining control like you are in some other FGs.
aerial control and DI are two diff things
 

DippnDots

Feral Youth
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#33
i suppose that's the exact term, honestly i consider any movement at all when in the air to fall under DI, and there's just different ways to apply it. IE DI'ing when you get hit, after you've been hit, whether you jump forward, neutral, or back, then change the DI. It makes the most sense to me to categorize it all as DI, and then to understand the different times and ways you can DI and the different impacts they have on your characters position.

It feels like terming it aerial control separates it too much, though I can completely understand doing so for the purposes of easier discussion and really it would probably be better for newer players who don't have the conceptual knowledge of the game yet.
 

FoxLisk

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#36
Yeah. There are a bunch of terms that you can only really find out what they are and how to use by asking or reading until you figure out the jist of it. Particularly: the details of buffering, shield A/S/DI (which I'm still not clear on), Isai dropping, platform canceling, ledge canceling.

And some things just need better tutorials. For example you're always hearing people say things like, "it's easy to get out of ___ if you quarter circle SDI" which sounds sort of intuitive, and I can guess what it means in most situations, but a guide on this would be good, perhaps as part of a more general SDI guide.

My vote for a rename of jab reset is just "reset," since nothing else really does that.

Magus, you are amazing. That was an excellent writeup of resets and how and when they work and im very glad to understand the mechanics better now. Does that mean that if you miss a tech v falco and SDI his shine upwards, you can force yourself into that weird floaty animation (assuming the shine is sufficiently stale, which it probably is)? Because that could potentially be pretty helpful for getting out of shine dair combos.

Also, can someone with AR and who has taken vector calculus (or at least physics) do some calculations? I would bet money that the trajectory when DI is involved is a dot product or some scaled vector sum of the direction you're being shot in and the direction you're holding, but as far as I know there's been no research on it.

Edit: I don't have AR or recording equipment so I can't test anything or make gifs, but I can write up some stuff... if someone gets organized and assigns tasks to people, I could write up explanations on most things.
 

Lovage

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#37
yeah shield DI is insanely important and needs to be put in the thread

is anyone interested in leading this project? mbr doesnt do anything so there's no point in hiding it in a dead forum when we can keep it public and get a lot of input

and yea the best term for that technique is "reset" imo

you can add the move before to specify how you're doing it, like jab reset, laser reset, etc
 

Signia

Smash Lord
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#38
I've heard "reset" used as a way of describing an action that results in a situation where neither player has the advantage, like in the beginning of a match. For example, if fox shines someone who is close to the ground, all he gets is a reset because the hitstun ends when they touch the ground after getting shined.

I don't even understand how you could call the force wakeup a "reset," I mean what are you reseting them to, a position where they are vulnerable for a short time and get hit/thrown guaranteed? They weren't in that position in the first place, so I don't see how that could be considered a reset, which implies a return to an original state.

but if you like saying "reset," w/e idc
 
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