Wario vs. MK, an even Matchup?

[bludhoundz]

I know Wario has good range. I've seen the vid of his uair hitting MK out of a shuttle loop (broken sideways range), and I know his jabs, ftilt and dtilt have good range. But MK's dsmash has less range than his glide attack, fsmash, ftilt, dtilt, bair (and maybe dair or fair or both). It isn't exactly one of his most ranged moves.

I'm not saying Wario's range can't ever be compared to MK's. But MK's dtilt is one of his most ranged moves, it almost completely outranges Marth on the ground (the only moves he has to outrange it are Shieldbreaker, Fsmash and Counter, all are laggy), who generally has better range than MK and most of the cast in general.

I'll believe that Wario's dtilt beats out MK's dtilt if I see some evidence, but until then I'm skeptical.

And I think this matchup is fairly even, the spacing game by both players has to be extremely tight.

 

[MorphedChaos]

The thing is, Wario's Dtilt has the same range or even more then MK, and due to MK having laser like priority, his moves can't cling, so Wario's disjointed Dtilt goes through MK's sword and hits him. Trust me, that move has some crazy range to it. It also comes out in 5 frames.

 

[slikvik]

warios dtilt isn't really good...

 

[Fogo]

Tech chase infinite? Vids or it didnt happen.

And you can get at an aircamping Wario using Shuttle loop and Tornado as he descends from the second jump.

MK
Snake
Wario
Pikachu
Diddy
Falco

I think the list of Viable counters looks something like this in order. I've never played a good pikachu so I can't say about the tossup between him and Pikachu.

I can agree with that.

How do you feel about the lucario matchup?? I kinda feel like it's close to even sometimes

Don't underestimate Wario's range. I've never tested the dtilt theory, but Wario's jab has the same range as MK's dsmash.

Picture proof of it's lol-range:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3644/3405767186_2fe608f632.jpg?v=0

O_o

 

[OverLade]

I can agree with that.

How do you feel about the lucario matchup?? I kinda feel like it's close to even sometimes




O_o

If lucario plays extremely gay and campy he can do well, but no, its definelty at least 60/40 MKs favor.

 

[Fogo]

If lucario plays extremely gay and campy he can do well, but no, its definelty at least 60/40 MKs favor.

Yeah true, mk has way more options in the air, but i think aura makes it a winnable fight, as long as you dont get gimped lol

 

[PhantomX]

Well that's the problem facing great MK players, lol.

And yeah, Wario's range is godly, shame everything is slow.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I feel like ICs often fail to gain mention in a MK's "worst" matchups thread, the flawed misconception being usually that MK has a sword so he can seperate them and win, which isn't right. Well, it kind of is, but it's overstated.

 

[Fogo]

I feel like ICs often fail to gain mention in a MK's "worst" matchups thread, the flawed misconception being usually that MK has a sword so he can seperate them and win, which isn't right. Well, it kind of is, but it's overstated.

It would be mentioned more if we had more high profile IC players

 

[Blistering Speed]

And yet Pikachu gets mentioned?

 

[phi1ny3]

IC's are pretty low, lol, the only one I've heard of really is Kawaii and lain, but everyone practically knows Anther and Bad news bear, Stealthraptor, H.C.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Meh, I think the only Pikachu people really "know" is Anther.

IC's have Meep, Lain and Kawaii all placing consistently well.

Either way they're both not well represented, I was just questioning the double standard.

 

[Dekar173]

Only thing I noticed (and this is where the match started falling apart for you) is you didn't continue to space with fair during your second stock, like you did in the first. Instead, you attempted to space with dair, which was punished a bit more than during your first stock.

 

[OverLade]

IC's are pretty low, lol, the only one I've heard of really is Kawaii and lain, but everyone practically knows Anther and Bad news bear, Stealthraptor, H.C.

We also have a Pikachu player in Florida ESAM who does extremely well against our MK players.

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh yeah, how could I forget Esam and his combo namesake?

 

[Fyist]

The only advantage wario has over MK is that its hard for MK to land d-smash or f-smash on wario because hes always in the air and will punish it with a d-air of his own. Besides that MK ***** warios air game and makes way too hard to deal out damage of his own.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Halbred your MK looks good except you don't abuse shuttle loop and go jumping off the stage for gimps (although that's because they usually recover high I suppose).

Shuttle Loop is like Wario kryptonite.

 

[CO18]

Halbred your MK looks good except you don't abuse shuttle loop and go jumping off the stage for gimps (although that's because they usually recover high I suppose).

Shuttle Loop is like Wario kryptonite.

What? Shuttle loop is not very safe vs Wario at all...

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I'm talking about when Wario does the constant aerial approaches, shuttle loop's invincibility frames always screw me up. You really have to get used to reading him though so you don't get punished with a clap.

 

[OverLade]

I'm talking about when Wario does the constant aerial approaches, shuttle loop's invincibility frames always screw me up. You really have to get used to reading him though so you don't get punished with a clap.

A smart Wario will switch up his approach, making Shuttle loop too risky, hence me not using it, like CO18 said.

And edguarding a smart Wario is hard to say the least.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Yeah I just watched your vids against Gmoney and you actually used Shuttle Loop a lot, and in good ways.

Lol at the 43% fart kill.

Also Phantom, when you used Bite and it got MK out of a tornado, were you grounded or in the air?

 

[magikguy]

co18 who are the remaining wi-fi pros? i know ally is one of them .

 

[Master Raven]

co18 who are the remaining wi-fi pros? i know ally is one of them .

I will next AIB ladder season.

Mark my words.

 

[PhantomX]

Yeah I just watched your vids against Gmoney and you actually used Shuttle Loop a lot, and in good ways.

Lol at the 43% fart kill.

Also Phantom, when you used Bite and it got MK out of a tornado, were you grounded or in the air?

I was grounded, and he did it from the edge.

 

[MorphedChaos]

You have to bite MK at around the top of the tornado or about, then Bite nabs him I think. So I'll try shorthop bites on a tornado spamming MK and see if it works.

Also, Fair is the only thing MK has on Wario, otherwise Wario owns MK in the air.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

just cuz you're losing to wario doesn't make the match 50-50 ROFL


mk still wins it

 

[OverLade]

just cuz you're losing to wario doesn't make the match 50-50 ROFL


mk still wins it

Lol MK has an edge over everyone, but Im not basing it off my own losses. DSF still loses to Fiction even after having to learn the matchup against Futile since the beggining, DSF taking a game off M2K with Wario, Phantom taking a game off Tyrant etc....

I think its the matchup that will never become easy even after you've learned it compared to other characters because MK players will always make mistakes. MK can't really do anything super gay to Wario.....at least I havent figured it out/seen anyone do it.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Have you seen DSF's MK? It isn't "super versatile" and Fiction is clearly a better player than him. DSF took one single game off of M2K.. big whoop.. so did infinity, 2 stock in an MK ditto. it was one match. In the 4th and final match of the set, which wasnt recorded, M2K nearly 3 stocked him because Wario can't 'really' hit MK very often, even ifyou do **** up. One game doesn't mean anything, lil b has taken a game off Chu Dat (lil b plays yoshi and never places very high in md/va, no offense lil b)


At the end of the day I think most of your basis is off of your own losses xD

 

[OverLade]

Have you seen DSF's MK? It isn't "super versatile" and Fiction is clearly a better player than him. DSF took one single game off of M2K.. big whoop.. so did infinity, 2 stock in an MK ditto. it was one match. In the 4th and final match of the set, which wasnt recorded, M2K nearly 3 stocked him because Wario can't 'really' hit MK very often, even ifyou do **** up. One game doesn't mean anything, lil b has taken a game off Chu Dat (lil b plays yoshi and never places very high in md/va, no offense lil b)


At the end of the day I think most of your basis is off of your own losses xD

But isn't that the idea? DSF is a top player, but if Fiction is better than him, therefore he wins the matchup. M2K is better than DSF...which is why DSF got *****. That sorta makes it an even matchup unless MK plays flawlessly, which isnt easy for anybody to do all the time.

Not saying MK doesnt have an advantage because he does, but I think its as close to even as you can get besides snake concerning MK.

I think you have "I want MK banned" Bias =D.

 

[Nic64]

Not saying MK doesnt have an advantage because he does, but I think its as close to even as you can get besides snake concerning MK.

I think Wario and Diddy both do better against MK than Snake. 45:55 is as good as it gets though IMO

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

But isn't that the idea? DSF is a top player, but if Fiction is better than him, therefore he wins the matchup. M2K is better than DSF...which is why DSF got *****. That sorta makes it an even matchup unless MK plays flawlessly, which isnt easy for anybody to do all the time.

Not saying MK doesnt have an advantage because he does, but I think its as close to even as you can get besides snake concerning MK.

I think you have "I want MK banned" Bias =D.

I don't even want MK banned really, I think you have "I lost so it must be the character match up and not me" bias :D

 

[supermario27mx]

I think Wario and Diddy both do better against MK than Snake. 45:55 is as good as it gets though IMO

Pikachu
+10

 

[OverLade]

I don't even want MK banned really, I think you have "I lost so it must be the character match up and not me" bias :D

Lol na its really not that I promise. First stock first match I ***** Reflex by playing flawlessly but as soon as I lost my cool and perfect style I started losing. And I lost due to getting hit by a fart, not by getting outplayed, I still feel MK will **** Wario if you play it right.

But I feel that if both players are at a high level it'll come down to mostly skill unless MK is perfect, at which point it becomes in MKs favor easily....which is saying a lot in comparison to a lot of MKs other matchups.

 

[PhantomX]

I thought I'd throw out there that I almost eliminated Dojo from HOBO 14 Winner's Bracket(I think I'm the closest anyone has come to doing so excluding MK), and came close to two stocking him first round.

He's a better player than me. If Wario's spacing is on point it's hard for MK to do much of anything of consequence to Wario.

 

[Fogo]

I thought I'd throw out there that I almost eliminated Dojo from HOBO 14 Winner's Bracket(I think I'm the closest anyone has come to doing so excluding MK), and came close to two stocking him first round.

He's a better player than me. If Wario's spacing is on point it's hard for MK to do much of anything of consequence to Wario.

Bwett took him to last stock last hit and dojo ran him to time at college station winning by 10% with yoshi.

Razer beat him fs5 w/ snake.

Anything earlier is probably irrelevant lol There's also people whp have beat his MK in MM's without using MK.

 

[PhantomX]

But Billy is a god. Dojo didn't do so amazing at FS5 in general. The Billy example is relevant b/c Dojo went undefeated there.

 

[OverLade]

I thought I'd throw out there that I almost eliminated Dojo from HOBO 14 Winner's Bracket(I think I'm the closest anyone has come to doing so excluding MK), and came close to two stocking him first round.

He's a better player than me. If Wario's spacing is on point it's hard for MK to do much of anything of consequence to Wario.

What CPs do wario players generally use against MK?

I saw Reflex use Halberd against Seibrik and 2 stocked him. PS1 and FD are generally bad against MK, but where would you go?

 

[Shadow 111]

What CPs do wario players generally use against MK?

I saw Reflex use Halberd against Seibrik and 2 stocked him. PS1 and FD are generally bad against MK, but where would you go?

yeah, i'd like to know this as well. i generally like halberd a lot... but wario can kill you there at such low percentages that i guess that's what i would ban.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[PhantomX]

I usually go to big stages, preferably high ceilings as usually I fall to grounded up bs