[VIC] 3 Stock'd ~ Melbourne 2010 ~ Nope

[abhishekh]

You can have one of the following:

MK

OR

Lots of fun stages.

lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages lots of fun stages

 

[earla]

i do hope normal singles or normal doubles are running?

theres plenty of opportunity to experiment with stages like spear pokemon or jungle falls in friendlies.

 

[Attila_]

Stupid stages are stupid. Although I'll test Rc and japes with you if you want

 

[Shaya]

someone give me a 50% lead on lylat as meta knight against someone who isn't meta knight.

if you accept these money match conditions, then JOYOUS OCCASION!

 

[C~Dog]

Wait, so you want to get a lead, AND be Meta Knight?

You be twippin'

 

[Leisha]

I dont think anyone would accept that offer xD

 

[Dekar289]

i see where you're going shaya but unfortunately you're just not good enough to even pull off some gay mk stage strat

 

[swordsaint]

I'll accept that offer shaya.

 

[Splice]

I'll take that offer Shaya. Would be worthwhile anyway that it turns out.

$5 next time you are in Melbourne? best of 3
Also $5 normal MM vs Marth
Also $5 normal MM vs MK

???

 

[Afropony]

Love how Earl called Jungle Japes Jungle Falls

Yeh, Lylat really isn't that great of a stage for Metaknight, as Billy said the stage tilts really **** with Metaknight and I don't think any Australian Metaknights are good enough to air camp for 8 minutes with a 50% lead.

 

[Dekar289]

rumble falls?

 

[dean.]

Schedule/events been finalised?

 

[abhishekh]

Nova Scotia ruleset looks fun.

 

[Timic83]

Nova scotia awwright

 

[C~Dog]

Nove Scotia are a bunch of scrubs.

Oh and uh i'll do the schedule and **** after work today.

 

[Leisha]

I think mum and dad will take me there probably, and Ill bring either cake or cupcakes. Depends on what i get time for. Cupcakes are alot easier though. lul

 

[Raziek]

Nove Scotia are a bunch of scrubs.

Oh and uh i'll do the schedule and **** after work today.

Sup, I namesearch Nova Scotia.

Now, I'll be civil. If you want me to explain the various reasons why Distant Planet, PTAD, Norfair, Japes, etc should all be legal, I'd be more than happy to.

I'm disappointed Shaya hasn't already.

Also, really, if you have all of those on for doubles, they should all be on for singles. There's no justifiable reason to have that double standard.

 

[Leisha]

Providing theres no luigis mansion, then i don't mind having those stages in doubles really.

Oh yeah speaking of doubles, whos teaming with mez?

 

[abhishekh]

Sup, I namesearch Nova Scotia.

Now, I'll be civil. If you want me to explain the various reasons why Distant Planet, PTAD, Norfair, Japes, etc should all be legal, I'd be more than happy to.

I'm disappointed Shaya hasn't already.

Also, really, if you have all of those on for doubles, they should all be on for singles. There's no justifiable reason to have that double standard.

yay

NS Ruleset could be fun for a side event anyway.

 

[swordsaint]

Sup, I namesearch Nova Scotia.

Now, I'll be civil. If you want me to explain the various reasons why Distant Planet, PTAD, Norfair, Japes, etc should all be legal, I'd be more than happy to.

I'm disappointed Shaya hasn't already.

Also, really, if you have all of those on for doubles, they should all be on for singles. There's no justifiable reason to have that double standard.

It's probably because they're stupid stages that break the game. When considering viable stages, you have to consider the entire list. If you put PTAD or Norfair on, you give MK one (or two) more counterpick(s). With that in mind, there'd be no point at all in banning anything because if you strike one stage between RC, Brinstar, PTAD and Norfair, he's still got another 3 stages to pick for a free win.

Obviously it applies to other characters as well, but MK's just easier to use as an example.

Also consider that in doubles you gain two bans, meaning a stagelist with more variety and freedom is already possible.

 

[Leisha]

I think with his ruleset though scott, metaknight is meant to be banned i think. Well at least i thought it said that anyway. I might need to read it again to double check.

But eh either way, I havent really tested these stages out enough to see if it actually hurts my character or not. I only know brinstar does lol

 

[Dekar289]

so what are some strats for 75m

 

[Attila_]

Oh! I'm king of that stage lol. I can time anyone out there, even with a 12 minute limit!

Stupid stages is stupid. None of that crap that makes the game more gay than it already is.

 

[Leisha]

its too bad the physics of this game are too slow and floaty. If not, i could see some of these stages working out.

 

[Raziek]

MK is banned in my ruleset, yes, however all of those stages are still viable with MK legal.

He already gets to choose between RC or Brinstar, so what's the issue? DP (with LGL) isn't even that good for him, nor is PTAD (He can't shark or plank).

I use the larger stagelist with two stage bans in both singles AND doubles, and it works great, I encourage you to at least try it out, if only as a side event.

The game is a lot deeper with more stages.

 

[swordsaint]

MK is banned in my ruleset, yes, however all of those stages are still viable with MK legal.

He already gets to choose between RC or Brinstar, so what's the issue? DP (with LGL) isn't even that good for him, nor is PTAD (He can't shark or plank).

I use the larger stagelist with two stage bans in both singles AND doubles, and it works great, I encourage you to at least try it out, if only as a side event.

The game is a lot deeper with more stages.

My first point is going to be that out here we don't actually play with RC legal, when I included it before I was assuming RC would be legal in your ruleset because stages like PTAD and Norfair are legal in your stagelist.

I never said Distant Planet was good for MK anyway, so it's irrelevant.

PTAD however is good for MK. MK can recover just as well here because of his insane recovery options, he has no need for ledges. 90% of the cast do though. His gimping potential is going to be amazing, and just because you can use the floor to bounce yourself back up doesn't mean his gimping is hurt at all. If he follows your DI on the floor bounce properly, you're taking extra damage, again, again and again. And if we consider the cars on this stage that kill ridiculously low, (about 40-50 I believe) the viability of this stage goes down the drain. I can understand points about how 'it helps people with poor kill options', but it also helps people with already good kill options. It might be different if they were a little weaker and killed at about 80 or so, but the strength on the cars is too great to be considered an acceptable hazard regardless of their predictability. They also promote small moments in which camping is required due to the inability to approach through the cars.

I think it's rather naive to assume that a stage isn't good for MK just because he can't plank or shark. MK is the best for many more reasons than his inpenetrable planking game.

That aside, including the two bans rule in singles is interesting if it gives more viability to more stages, but I think that you should still tweak your stagelist just a little so that there's only 3 of those 'mk broken' stages (again for example, I'm thinking of MK).

By that I mean to say out of RC, Brinstar, PTAD and Norfair, only 3 of these are legal. In this instance, MK will get a counterpick, but nothing that's too broken against every character in the game. By choosing only 3 of the above stages (I have RC, Brinstar and Norfair in mind) every character will have a stage that is at the very least 'winnable' against MK. Again, assuming you have a LGL.

Also, assuming an MK get's far enough in bracket to play best of 5 sets (which he will obviously) he only get's one of those above stages, and another CP such as Lylat Cruise or another stage dependant on the opponents character.

I'm just thinking out loud though, if there's an obvious flaw in my logic tell me about it.

 

[Dekar289]

nah seems like you just smashed his logic scoot nice work

 

[Raziek]

My first point is going to be that out here we don't actually play with RC legal, when I included it before I was assuming RC would be legal in your ruleset because stages like PTAD and Norfair are legal in your stagelist.

Ah, didn't know that. Don't know why you wouldn't have it legal other than an attempt to limit MK, but ok.

I never said Distant Planet was good for MK anyway, so it's irrelevant.

So you should legalize it, unless you can give me a reason to ban it. Hint: "It's Stupid" is a bad reason.

PTAD however is good for MK. MK can recover just as well here because of his insane recovery options, he has no need for ledges. 90% of the cast do though. His gimping potential is going to be amazing, and just because you can use the floor to bounce yourself back up doesn't mean his gimping is hurt at all. If he follows your DI on the floor bounce properly, you're taking extra damage, again, again and again. And if we consider the cars on this stage that kill ridiculously low, (about 40-50 I believe) the viability of this stage goes down the drain. I can understand points about how 'it helps people with poor kill options', but it also helps people with already good kill options. It might be different if they were a little weaker and killed at about 80 or so, but the strength on the cars is too great to be considered an acceptable hazard regardless of their predictability. They also promote small moments in which camping is required due to the inability to approach through the cars.

I think it's rather naive to assume that a stage isn't good for MK just because he can't plank or shark. MK is the best for many more reasons than his inpenetrable planking game.

All of this theorycraft is reasonably spot on, but it's not like he ***** here any worse than he does on Brinstar. MK is and always will be a matter of "Pick Your Poison", so I'd sooner not seeing you guys neutering the stagelist in an attempt to limit him. More than anything, I'd encourage you to experiment with a ban, since your region is isolated, much like Nova Scotia's.

That aside, including the two bans rule in singles is interesting if it gives more viability to more stages, but I think that you should still tweak your stagelist just a little so that there's only 3 of those 'mk broken' stages (again for example, I'm thinking of MK).

Again, he's banned, and that's arbitrarily attempting to limit him. Either ban him or let him do what he wants.

By that I mean to say out of RC, Brinstar, PTAD and Norfair, only 3 of these are legal. In this instance, MK will get a counterpick, but nothing that's too broken against every character in the game. By choosing only 3 of the above stages (I have RC, Brinstar and Norfair in mind) every character will have a stage that is at the very least 'winnable' against MK. Again, assuming you have a LGL.

Also, assuming an MK get's far enough in bracket to play best of 5 sets (which he will obviously) he only get's one of those above stages, and another CP such as Lylat Cruise or another stage dependant on the opponents character.

I'm just thinking out loud though, if there's an obvious flaw in my logic tell me about it.

The obvious flaw in your logic is that you're building your stagelist around a character, instead of including stages that add a lot of depth for the rest of the cast. All of these stages provide additional options for plenty of characters other than MK.

If you're willing to construct the ruleset completely to limit him, you should be willing to admit he's broken enough to ban (or at least temp ban).

Looking back at my responses, I'm distressed that ALL your reasons for having these stages off largely revolve around Meta-Knight.

I strongly encourage you to consider a temp-ban, even if it's only as a side event, with the larger stagelist.

 

[Zxv]

If MK was banned, I'd have almost no problem with 90% of the banned stages being CPs.

Not for me personally, as Peach does well regardless of stage, but for others who aren't as lucky.

 

[swordsaint]

Distant Planet was never something I was trying to debate, so I'm going to leave it alone again.

I use MK as a primary example because he's the easiest to use as one and he makes flaws all the more apparent.

I'll give you my opinion on the whole banning MK scenario. I believe MK is only ban worthy under a bad stagelist that gives him the freedom to pick at least 2 stages that are more or less 'instant wins'. Now it may be an exaggeration but you get my point. I don't think he's so far above the rest of the cast that he deserves a ban when the stagelist is reasonable. It's only when a stagelist uses all of his best stages that it becomes frustrating.

MK does **** worse on PTAD more than Brinstar imo. The ledges are such a huge factor to think about. Smash is so much about edgeguarding and recovering, and MK excels in both these areas. With a LGL, MK isn't going to get away with sharking for a whole game, because he'll lose.

For the record, I'm not against a ban. I'm not for it either. If people want to try it, I'm happy to do so. There's just factors on both sides. People have been using MK for nearly 2-3 years now, that's something to consider, but MK under the wrong stagelist is very banworthy. Those are the reasons I believe stagelist limitations are the fairest solutions. It allows people to use the character they've been practicing, and gives other players the ability to play on a varied stagelist.

Try to remember this one important thing, because I've used MK so much as the example, you've missed one key point. By having those 3 stages I mentioned earlier, you ban 2 of them against MK. However for other matchups that don't include MK, they might not get banned.

I'll summarise why I can agree a 2 bans with RC, Brinstar and Norfair is acceptable. (Although I still prefer out current rules, because they're familar).

- Stage variety. You get all the variety of the stages that you would otherwise, excluding PTAD.
- MK's freedom. He's still not getting anymore than 1 'mk' stage, but he still gets two counterpicks. Meaning he's not banworthy yet, and the stagelist is intact.
- You're getting it both ways like this. You're just losing 1 stage from the stagelist to keep both sides content. What's wrong with this?

 

[Raziek]

I don't see much of a problem with that compromise, but am I to understand that this would also be for singles, then?

My main issue is building the stagelist around MK, that's all.

The stagelist should not be considered "worse", just because he can abuse it, because MK abuses a LOT of things.

Also, PS2 is completely legit as a starter stage, by the way. I use BF, SV, YI, Lylat, PS1, PS2, Halberd, Castle Siege, FD in Nova Scotia, works great.

 

[swordsaint]

At no point was I ever debating anything about doubles.

 

[Attila_]

check robocop results. i see no reason to ban mk here. in the us maybe, but not here.

in regards to the child of nova and scoot...

stages that involve large amounts of luckiness (or unluckiness) should be banned. stages that completely disable characters should be banned. stages that completely enable mk should be banned. stages that support gayness over skill should be banned.

that is all.

@raziek: the stagelist is built around mk because quite frankly, he is the centre of this game. and at least at this point, we're keeping him.

 

[Raziek]

stages that involve large amounts of luckiness (or unluckiness) should be banned.

I agree with this, though this only covers WarioWare. Picto isn't bad enough for a ban, IMO.

stages that completely disable characters should be banned. stages that completely enable mk should be banned. stages that support gayness over skill should be banned.

that is all.

@raziek: the stagelist is built around mk because quite frankly, he is the centre of this game. and at least at this point, we're keeping him.

You'll need to elaborate on "Disabling characters" and "gayness", since both of those are extremely subjective and I have a feeling you're doing it wrong with those criteria.

Again, building it around MK is wrong, but I can't stop you there.

 

[Dekar289]

port town aero drive is so ****ed up
you have rocks in your head buddy rofl
like how can anyone seriously consider legalizing that abortion of a stage

 

[Attila_]

on the contrary, i don't have to elaborate at all, because i'm arguing a popular status quo.

but just for your information:

disabling characters: first that springs to mind would be olimar on summit. i don't need to explain, but i'm pretty sure it would be a very sad match to watch. you get the picture.

gayness: as determined by our community's accepted notion of gayness. i should win because i'm better, not cause i can abuse game flaws or oversights. the ledge grab limit was already introduced because of this reason, so don't try try to argue its part of the game we should deal with.

and just btw, lucky extends way past warioware and picto. the cars coming when you're recovering on port town is the first example i can think of.

 

[Splice]

its not coz of MK we cant have more legal stages

Its coz you ****ters use crappy characters. If more of you could be awesome and main characters like GaW, then we could have MORE LEGAL stages whilst making the MetaKnight MU BETTER FOR US!!!!

But really
i think we should bring Rainbow Cruise and Norfair back, and Japes too.
Just those 3 more is a lot of variety coz they benefit different character-types too.
I think most characters arent affected by RC and Brinstar and Norfair being on, against MK, one of them they should do ok on.
At least for S, A and B tier (read: characters that matter at all)

In a set of 5 it'd get better. I think Falco wouldn't like this, idk how Diddy does on RC, D3 wouldn't like this, IC's wouldn't... i dont think... DUDE JUST WIN ON THE STARTER.

 

[Zero]

But Game and Watch is a bad character...

 

[Shaya]

yo raziek.

<3

We have varying opinions on some stages.

But Distant Planet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jungle Japes in terms of competitive play.

 

[M]

^ Agreed that japes is terribad.

And really don't understand the hate for DP. =(