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[VIC] 3 Stock'd ~ Melbourne 2010 ~ Nope

Leisha

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After experimenting with the stage at the last boost, I actually find PS2 more neutral then lylat at least. FD is hard to say because it lacks platforms, although others still think it should be neutral.

I kinda think lylat is terrible :S Can't even see how its neutral at all.
 

swordsaint

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i like lylat more than ps2. I find myself fighting ps2 as a stage more than my opponent

that said, my opinion would be to only have 4 starters in pools. Final destination has been argued over and over again to only be a viable CP in 7 or 9 starters, strengthens a lot of campers too much.

as for neutrals in bracket matches, just go with sydneys list. most balanced imo.

@Leish - the idea isn't always to have 'neutral stages'. in fact, calling them neutrals is probably wrong too. the idea is that with all the stages in a starter group, any two characters can find a balanced stage in that matchup.
 

Shaya

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It's pretty good when people are still so unused to the stage that they're not paying attention to you :p.

OMG ITS THE AIR TRANSFORMATION, AND I'M OFF STAGE.
I KNOW WHAT I'LL DO!
I'LL ONLY HOLD FORWARD WHILST TRYING TO RECOVER!
THAT'LL SHOW EM I KNOW HOW TO ABUSE OPTIONS!

WHAT, CONVEYOR BELTS? I'LL JUST TRY DOING A CHICKEN DANCE INSTEAD OF *ledge cancelled hacks / planking / pew pewing from centre of the stage"

The ice transformation is the best though.
Don't get me started on people not knowing how to stand still.
 

swordsaint

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It's pretty good when people are still so unused to the stage that they're not paying attention to you :p.

OMG ITS THE AIR TRANSFORMATION, AND I'M OFF STAGE.
I KNOW WHAT I'LL DO!
I'LL ONLY HOLD FORWARD WHILST TRYING TO RECOVER!
THAT'LL SHOW EM I KNOW HOW TO ABUSE OPTIONS!

WHAT, CONVEYOR BELTS? I'LL JUST TRY DOING A CHICKEN DANCE INSTEAD OF *ledge cancelled hacks / planking / pew pewing from centre of the stage"

The ice transformation is the best though.
Don't get me started on people not knowing how to stand still.
nah shaya that's like....exactly the problem

you're being forced in to playing to the stage too much...all of the time.
 

Shaya

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2.5 minutes out of 8 are transformations. Each transformation shows up once, one transformation will show up twice.

Playing into every stage is... apart of the game.
If we didn't try to advance our stage control games we'd all be happy on Final Destination, remember?
If you don't abuse the stage properly, you're going to lose.
Hence why you love Battlefield so you actually have recovery options,
and why I love smashville because I can platform cancel into **** all day.

PS2's stage changes are controllable by the player. It isn't a "random stage flip" like Frigate.

Characters are able to use PS2's transformations better/worse than others.
But this is the same for you as Falco and me as Marth on other starter stages.

Only the conveyor belt, in my opinion, is a transformation that can actually force you into a bad position. But alas there are things that occur such as "the ghost on YI not coming up to save you or Smashville's platform being positioned in a way to allow a character to extend off stage to gimp you. Hell, LYLAT just outright tilts the stage randomly which hinders the recoveries of others. However the timing for any opponent to abuse this bad position is actually quite slim.

PS2's stage changes do not hinder recovery. On the contrary, the conveyor belt can actually save you as it allows you to land on the stage and then negate your landing lag. On the contrary, the air transformation gives better recovery options to a lot of characters in a similar steed as Smashville and Yoshi's island platforms do, except instead of maybe 2-3 seconds, it's 30 seconds.

None of the transformations stops you from keeping yourself safe through correct zoning. Nearly all the transformations on PS1 completely halt combat lest someone be bored and/or stupid.
There is no ledge grab limit for anyone bar MK. ANY character can safely grab a ledge during the air transformation. Platforms during the conveyor belt are easy to get to with just about every character other than maybe dedede and ganondorf. Grabbing the ledge is still safe - if a player wishes to approach you, they're giving up their safe position and getting themselves forced off stage.
Ice transformations near the ledges have no shaky sliding mechanics. Platforms still exist. If you aren't running, you aren't in danger.

The issue with PS2 is whether or not the transformations actually disallow consistent winners of matches.
I don't see how any transformation on PS2 will ever screw you over if you know how to handle it. No transformation effectively gives the opponent a free win.
 

Splice

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Has anyone actually tested Lylat Cruises tilts, in the BackRoom, Shaya? To see if there is any pattern?

Also while PS2 is nice and all, when the only problem on Lylat is the ledges (thingies you grab onto) and the main stage is super awesome all the time, this makes me prefer Lylat. Also did I mention I use GaW?

PS2 is a complicated stage, as a starter of some sort I think it would be the stage that everyone would have to research the most... or just strike til they learn it lol.

But, really, as Scoot said, the only thing that counts is - can more characters find an "even" stage with PS2 as a starter or with Lylat as a starter? In Pools or in the actual tournament, if you're thinking of PS2 as a real starter.
 

swordsaint

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So I've been playing around with PS2 for a while (and MK on it, because of Shaya's outrageous claims) and I have to say...this is the biggest thing he's wrong about yet.
 

Shaya

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I said MK will have a hard time edge guarding people on the conveyor belt.
Scoot's reply is that he can walk and still **** you.
Shame that any move he starts will pretty much push him off the stage :(

And MK's aerials aren't exactly as dominating in keeping people on the ledge as his charged smashes / grounded shuttle loop / oos options are.

Talking about outrageous claims though.
"It's impossible to get back on stage from the ledge without taking damage".
 

swordsaint

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lol exaggeration

MK's dair hits you downwards...straight back to ledge. he has enough to outlast the transformation, wrack him chip damage with small edgeguards, then have his real edgeguarding back when it goes back to standard PS2.
 

Shaya

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It's a pretty good sonic stage, no doubt.

The main thing I'm trying to sell here is that whilst there are some "game changes" in some transformations, they don't destroy game play nor result in loss of stocks in stupid ways.

5 and a half minutes out of 8 and you're playing on a very basic stage.
It's size is about that of Final Destination.
It has very simple ledges (easy to snap onto)
Has two platforms that are the 'clutch' of why this stage is actually worthwhile over FD.
It's stage boundaries are large.

For about one and a half to two minutes you're playing with slightly different mechanics that have consistent results and with practice are very much manageable.

IT may -not- be the best starter (nor worthy of being one at all), but it has been neglected for the entirety of brawl's lifespan and I feel it deserves a chance to shiiiiineee~ Through playing it myself and debating in the BBR about it.
 

Splice

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I am actually really happy for the inclusion of PS2 as a starter and was never really sure if it was banned at the first tournaments, then I wondered how come no-one CPs it, mustve been banned, and now it is definitely banned, and It all happened so quietly no-one felt to bring it up.

BUT NOW it's here, and that's good.

Still, it's not good for starter imo, I'd say close but no cake.

Not about fairness and randomness, but because of

1. Complicated sections in starters is not really something that is encouraged I believe

and more importantly

2. As far as I can tell, it does not allow for more fair/even/one-sidedly-beneficial MU's-affected-by-stage to be made than if we have YI, PS1, Lylat, BF, and SV, instead of replacing one of those 5 with PS2. Don't really care about whether you have it as the 6th stage in pools.
 

C~Dog

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Protip: you're arguments carry more weight if you provide explanations.

Or at least thats how its supposed to work.
 

redrighthand

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Ps2; Ew.

And in response to the title question; 'Are we going to run Pools?'

Sounds good to me, i'm assuming that previously/usually it was straight knockout?
Pools would gives noobs like more games :3
This equals more learning, fun and sexytime.
 

Splice

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Lets look at the Pros and Cons of these 3 stages, which chars like them and which don't, and how they might contribute to the 5 starters in their own way by giving more MUs their potential "EVEN" stage, or by being striked instead of other stages so that we end up on another "EVEN" stage.

PS1

* Normal
Pros -
Cons - Bad edges

* Grass
Pros - Good for all, notably chars with good jumps and airials perhaps
Cons - Chars slow ground and air speed won't use this stage as well as others.

* Fire
Pros - Chars with good ground game, projectiles maybe, range, especially upwards ranged moves
Cons - Chars without escape abilities, without range and without ground game

* Water
Pros - Good for Chars with range, good ground game, and whoever is higher %
Cons - Air mobile chars talents are waster, some chars that cant approach/abuse windmill

* Rock
Pros - Chars with Good smash moves, good UpB, Good ground move speed (as rolling does nothing), escape capabilities (Quick UpB most of the time)
Cons - Chars without escape abilities, Chars that die up, chars that can approach talents wasted, doesnt matter here

Summary: A stage that chars with good ground game and good close range/boxing abilities will not strike, and chars that
are slow and unable to move around the stage may strike.


PS2

* Normal
Pros -
Cons -

* Electric
Pros - Chars with range, good smashes and multiple jumps or good airials with less than about 15 frames
Cons - Chars who rely on items/projectiles/grabs/ground game

* Flying
Pros - Chars with a good Uthrow, good airials, good air game and chars that like to jump really high anyway
Cons - Everyone who doesnt have good airials and good air game and anyone who doesnt like to jump really high

* Ice
Pros - Good smashes, good grabs, doesnt need to rely on spacing, good air game
Cons - Bad for chars that rely on spacing on the ground, perhaps also bad for chars with slow moves

* Ground
Pros - Chars with good range on the right, but mostly quite average for All
Cons - Fat chars, Chars that cant get away from the right side of the stage if they rely on ground game i guess

Summary: A stage that chars who have good air game, strong kills will not strike, and characters versing other chars that
they don't want to be in the air against or need stage control against will strike.


Lylat Cruise
Pros - Platforms benefit chars with good air game - Not complicated as PS2/PS1
Cons - Tilting, bad for chars relying mostly on ground game

Summary: A stage that chars with decent recovery, good air game and good uses for platforms will not strike, and characters
versing characters where they need to use their ground game as their biggest asset may strike. Also space animals and
other chars with bad recoveries and a dislike for tilted platforms may strike.


You don't just want the most viable stages in fairness/non randomness, as I've said before. You want to have stages that
to appeal to all chars, and stages that all chars are going to have something to strike, whether coz it's bad for them or
specifically good for the opponent. This will result in things getting striked for these reasons to come to the fairest stage.
After thinking about it I prefer Lylat the most because of how it covers a large amount of characters, and it's
all good for air characters and worse the more they rely on ground, so that's pretty simple and definitive.
PS2 is also good because it makes a similair impact, where mobility on the stage and ability to be in the air but still be safe
is good, and chars who need stage control will hate this stage.

PS1 seems to make the least impact to all characters. Lylat and PS2 both offer rewards for
mobility and good air game, and make it hard for characters that like to stay on the ground and have stage control, and other considerable character specific things.
PS1 however is favourable if you are playing a character that doesn't like to fight close range, or doesn't have good mobility.
Most of it's transformations are seperated, as in you end up playing on one side of the stage or the other, the only stage I find
doesn't have this is the forest transformation, so it benefits chars that work well in a small area, and might make it harder to approach them.


I think that because PS2 and Lylat benefit similair character traits, it would be a choice between them, because in your starters you want
"Something for everybody".

I think that Lylat is more definitive in what chars will like it and who won't like it, whereas PS2's stage transformations benefit a wider range of characters in one stage, and then hinder them in other stages, which I think makes it a bad starter, because it only appeals to the few chars that are advantaged on all of it's transformations. With PS2 I can't think of many MUs that would end up on that stage in starters. I can think of just a few for Lylat, and I admit it's quite close, but, taking into consideration Lylats edges (which shouldn't be looked at as "oh these are random", rather,
what characters are they hurting most/what chars can overcome them with a little care/what chars don't care), I still think Lylat is a fair bit more straigh forward to what characters are going to like it/not like it, and because there aren't any transformations it's a good stage for the same chars all the time.

Lylat and PS2 are rarely going to be played as a starter, in favour of BF, SV and YI, so I think it's more important to consider what chars will strike, what chars will never strike,
what chars will strike against other certain characters, and what characters will never strike against certain other characters.


In this case, I think Lylat is more straightforward and understandable in who will be striking/not striking than PS2. PS2 raises more uncertainty.

Also, with less experience on PS2, people aren't yet going to know what MU's they like it for or not until we learn it as a counter stage.
If you ever do think PS2 might just be better as a starter than Lylat for multiple reasons being weighed against others in favour of Lylat, that could be acceptable if plausible,
but I think until we all gather in-the-field knowledge about it with/against certain characters, it should stick to CP regardless.
 

swordsaint

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so you're saying that because players are inexperienced in dealing with PS2 compared to Lylat, that it's instantly not as viable as a starter? I disagree with that logic, because any one player can say, "I'm not experienced on ******* stage, how can it be a starter?"

PS2 doesn't affect as much as you think it does. As Shaya said as well, the majority of the game is spent on the normal transformation, with each other transformation being played once for about 30 seconds each I believe.

They don't help aerial based characters as much as you think either.

Electric - recovering against Metaknight suddenly becomes less dangerous. The conveyor belts remove some of his edgeguarding tactics, and almost any other option he has will give you enough time to get back to the stage after only taking about 5-10 %. Simple concept here, take the middle ground if you can, and if you can't play it safe on the ledge where edgeguarding tactics are less useful.

Keep in mind that because of the conveyor belts, a simple get up will put you back at the ledge, all while you're invincible for almost all of that. Useful for removing things like Triple jump glitch. (<3 Shaya for telling me all this)

Wind transformation...I'd go as far as saying this actually defeats airgame. Characters like MK can't space properly in the air, jumps go too high, and it's difficult to return to the ground with using Dimensional Cape. His poor air mobility make his juggling difficult here too, combined that with his inability to return to the ground and recentre himself, it's actually quite fun.

Recovering isn't so bad either, can benefit those with less-than average recoveries. The wind obviously delaying their decent. Gimps come less than you'd want.

Ground stage - pretty neutral with the exception of the giant hill creating some wall tactics. However, don't be stupid and impatient here and you won't find yourself in huge trouble.

Ice stage - some could see this as possibly the most mechanic changing stage, but when it comes down to it, it doesn't affect much at all. Running doesn't even hurt as much as people think here. Just don't stop running, cancel your runs with jumps,shields, rolls etc and you won't find yourself that affected at all. As Shaya's stated, simply don't run.

There's really not much that's controversially game changing. However some might suggest that this is just one of very few stages that MK can't perform as well on as he'd like.

The stage itself isn't a problem at all, for most characters. I would find myself using this if it was legal. (lolshorthopquintuplelasers) It's really...a player problem to be having a huge difficulty on this stage. it's completely viable as a starter of 5 stages and a CP. 3 stages should always be YI, SV, BF. They're easily the best starters ever.
 

Shaya

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FD is a stage that with it's existence help characters such as diddy, falco, dedede in a lot of match ups, snake in many match ups, etc etc
PS1 was meant to weaken the potency of FD (as in not being omg if i don't strike it i lose) but still benefit those similar set of characters but be usable by most other cast members in match ups with more "fairness" than FD. However, PS1 actually makes characters like MK (which FD was his main dilemma) actually not only have the stage issue negated, but given a stage in which he can actively time out most of the cast safely. This is because the transformations removed the ability to use projectiles, as well as pretty much removing the ability to approach another character (this is pretty much fact). To top it off the ledges allowed "planking" from underneath.

tl;dr FD was bad for MK, PS1 was meant to be "good" for those FD lovers, but it turned out the stage was a lot better for stalling characters, restricted most character's move sets and movements a lot of the time, etc etc.

PS2's transformations don't restrict character move sets in nearly any way, shape, or form. Actually, a lot of the time, the transformations enhance a character's options and variability they can use with their moves. To top it off only one transformation has a "divider" that inhibits the use of projectiles.

The air stage weakens the ability to approach from the air; but it's still feasible.
Ice Stage still freely allows approaching, and there are various new ways to do it.
Most characters can "run" to move faster than the conveyor belt. People think this weakens approaching options, but specific usages of it can be used for mix ups (dashing forward in brawl is a commitment, the conveyor belt actually allows you to move backwards at a speed you can control without the lag of turning around; interesting, huh?; conveyor belts is the new wave dashing!).
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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way too many long posts. i demand tl;dr from everyone. even though shaya put on in, it was really long too.

and just for the record, i would only cp one character to fd, shaya, and the little monkey apparently does well there too. get at me.
 
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