NachoOfCheese
Smash Ace
Shiny won the MATCH. It doesnt mean Lucario wins the MATCHUP.
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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions
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Wintermelon43
Smash Champion
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Aganist ZeRo.
C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
Lucario's inconsistent and frankly poor design makes him hard to get a firm understanding of. How most of his MUs play out is super flimsy often on both ends. His worst MUs tend to be against those who have early kills or reliable confirms. No matter how hard he loses in neutral, max aura Lucario is a beast and a comeback king.
Senko Zero
Smash Apprentice
I had meant to type in this post earlier when the Toon Link talk started but had to run off to work. Forgive me for both the mistiming and the long post ahead.
As someone who plays Toon Link to understand why we don't see him often and then later because I came to like his play style, I'll try putting in a few points here while I can. Sorry that this is a little late, I was on my way to work.
- Having the most projectiles in the game at one time with the a running foot speed comparable to the likes of Metaknight, who in turn is just under Sonic and Falcon, definately gives him a really, really good neutral game. The fact he can have three separate projectiles on screen on time (throw a boomerang, shot an arrow then either have the bomb tossed in the air to cover a high approach or save it after the arrow to cover their response) opens up a lot of angles for him to use. To add to that, the boomerang and arrow are slower in air compared to links which sounds like a negative at first but then you realize they are occupying that space longer means the opponent has to account for them longer. The only character who can come close to that amount of space coverage at once is probably Duck Hunt, but he can't fire them all off other then some cases (sorry if I'm wrong about this, based on a brief time trying to pick him up).
- To farther on his projectile game some, everyone that hears the name Toon Link knows how strong his bombs are. I won't get into that. One point I don't see is talk about is his boomerang. Granted, it's not the biggest thing, but when it's out you have to respect where it is and when it's returning. As it's so slow you can get some free pressure as if they try to attack you while the boomerang is returning that's just as much as a free hit as a bomb toss is. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a free usmash or free utilt to uair kill as someone got hit by a returning boomerang.
- On to his aerial game, it's pretty solid even if a lot of things are unsafe. ALL of his aerial moves can kill at 100%+ if they are fresh, with uair , fair or bair being his go to aerial kill moves if they can be landed. Uair in general is an amazing move as it comes out super quick (which is the closest thing he has to a throw combo in uthrow > uair at low percents), lasts incredibly long (you can full jump with uair on the way up and the move lasts until he begins to land) and is a great kill move all around. Bair and Fair fufill the same purpose but are different at the same time, as bair has no startup but recovery while fair is the reverse of that. Nair is his fastest and most general use aerial and probably the safest one on shield then any other aerial and can combo after a string of utilts. Finally, we get to dair which like other "meteor" dairs has limited uses but it's still an incredibly strong spike which can hit well below the stage and with the momentum stalling can be used to as a deterrent for aerial follows or those who like to air dodge trap. Finally it has an ENORMOUS wind box when it lands which can not only make it "safe" but can also mess with people recovering at the ledge. I found that out on accident when failed spike attempt made a marth up b go flying away from the stage thanks to the windbox. Extremely situational but potentially just as powerful as Greninja's Up B in recovery. His zair seems to be a pretty good tool but not one I honestly try to use often so I won't talk about where that one lies.
- For the ground game, there's not much to write about here. He has tools comparable to normal link but they seem to recover faster in exchange for less range and knockback. Jab is a good and quick string as far as sword users go with jab1 and jab2 seemingly safe (haven't tested, but I haven't been punished for canceling them early), ftilt has good frontal space coverage and knockback (not kill worthy) and dtilt is good for stopping approaches and seems to be able to have a chance to get a trip at any percent, which is a free dash attack thanks to his running speed. Then we have utilt, which not only covers his front at back for people who get in close is a great combo tool at low percents (can go from 0% to 30% with the chance for an uair, nair, fair or bair follow up, can go a bit higher on heavies) and at higher percents is a set up for spot dodge traps (like the amazing uair).
- As for smashes, he has a nice selection with all killing at 100%+ range unless you get a really good read at the edge. Fsmash is a pretty solid hit confirmable kill move with the first part being pretty safe if you space it correctly just like Link's is. Dsmash is really just there if you notice a roll spamer but it is quick enough if you notice a gap and want someone in the air. Finally we get to probably his best smash, usmash. One of the fastest usmashes in the game, it's nearly as fast as his utilt, with pretty good power to kill around 100% plus and isn't totally unsafe. Combined with his running speed, Toon Link has access to one of the fastest running usmashes in the game.
-On to the grab game...it's alright. Everyone knows about how bad his tether grab if it misses and how he has one of the strongest bthrows in the game (it can even kill middle screen at 130ish%+, doesn't need to just be at the edge) but on to some other points. Dthrow at lower percents has a potential followup in bair and similarly uthrow to uair as previoiusly mentioned. Fthrow is much to right home about either. Perhaps the best strength of his throw game is that he allows him to set up his neutral game once again if he lands a shield on people who like to shield alot, which will be explained late.r
-Before going on to the big topic of Toon Link, a brief mention of his recovery. It's middle of the pack. Up B covers more of a distance the Links and his tether is also a pretty solid option. Toon's Link's jumps are also floatier so he has more time to attempt to recover. The main point where link wins in recovery is he has a much easier time using bombs to give him a second bomb then toon link. You can get a bomb, do a double jump, up b off the stage, and then not have the bomb explode until you're close to the bottom of the stage before the bomb will explode and allow you to up b again. That makes it much more situational then Link's but at the cost of a overall better recovery then his. So there's that.
-Finally, let's get on to Toon Link on shield, probably his biggest weakness. With all the greatness of his neutral game, it doesn't mean jack if the opponent just..doesn't want to move and hold down the shield button. That means that eventually Toon Link will have to approach unless both players want to end in a time out. However, with the slowness of his projectiles to step up that can give him some pressure to build upon when they are just there holding shield. Throw a boomerang behind you then throw a bomb as you run in to make them continue holding shield down then run behind them. If they try to attack you, the boomerang will hit them. If they block the boomerang, that's potential for a free grab or another bomb set up. Toon Link loses out if he just tries to "camp" on people who shield but if you incorporate his projectiles into a mid to close range game against people that want to overly shield, you have a lot of options to open them up. Reads happens sure, but they also happen on both sides.
-As for matchups, I haven't come across a single match up that I feel Toon Link really cannot fight and win. I haven't fought a Sonic as him but I can definately see why people think he has a good match up against them. I've fought plenty of Marios (which might be slightly in Toon Links favor) and Shiek (which she still has the advantage on but Toon Link can definately win thanks to his neutral game messing hers up). I believe @
Shaya
once mentioned that Toon Link has a good match up on ZSS a few months ago and I can agree on that, but it's probably closer to even then anything. Not sure what to say on other notable top tiers as I haven't fought many other then Diddy isn't that bad. His match up spread makes me think of a journeyman that doesn't really lose much but doesn't have many extremely high "I'm going to break you" match ups either.
All in all, I'd say his final tier placement would probably be where the Pits are. A really strong fundamentals character that has pretty much everything he needs to win but doesn't severly outclass anyone but instead keeps up pace really well with everyone.
That's just the ramblings of some Toon Link player who never won a tournament or done anything notable but tried to make up some reasonings based on several months of off and on play for the people of this thread. I'm likely wrong on some things but I hope this gives a people a better idea of what Toon Links's capable of.
Thanks for reading.
As someone who plays Toon Link to understand why we don't see him often and then later because I came to like his play style, I'll try putting in a few points here while I can. Sorry that this is a little late, I was on my way to work.
- Having the most projectiles in the game at one time with the a running foot speed comparable to the likes of Metaknight, who in turn is just under Sonic and Falcon, definately gives him a really, really good neutral game. The fact he can have three separate projectiles on screen on time (throw a boomerang, shot an arrow then either have the bomb tossed in the air to cover a high approach or save it after the arrow to cover their response) opens up a lot of angles for him to use. To add to that, the boomerang and arrow are slower in air compared to links which sounds like a negative at first but then you realize they are occupying that space longer means the opponent has to account for them longer. The only character who can come close to that amount of space coverage at once is probably Duck Hunt, but he can't fire them all off other then some cases (sorry if I'm wrong about this, based on a brief time trying to pick him up).
- To farther on his projectile game some, everyone that hears the name Toon Link knows how strong his bombs are. I won't get into that. One point I don't see is talk about is his boomerang. Granted, it's not the biggest thing, but when it's out you have to respect where it is and when it's returning. As it's so slow you can get some free pressure as if they try to attack you while the boomerang is returning that's just as much as a free hit as a bomb toss is. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a free usmash or free utilt to uair kill as someone got hit by a returning boomerang.
- On to his aerial game, it's pretty solid even if a lot of things are unsafe. ALL of his aerial moves can kill at 100%+ if they are fresh, with uair , fair or bair being his go to aerial kill moves if they can be landed. Uair in general is an amazing move as it comes out super quick (which is the closest thing he has to a throw combo in uthrow > uair at low percents), lasts incredibly long (you can full jump with uair on the way up and the move lasts until he begins to land) and is a great kill move all around. Bair and Fair fufill the same purpose but are different at the same time, as bair has no startup but recovery while fair is the reverse of that. Nair is his fastest and most general use aerial and probably the safest one on shield then any other aerial and can combo after a string of utilts. Finally, we get to dair which like other "meteor" dairs has limited uses but it's still an incredibly strong spike which can hit well below the stage and with the momentum stalling can be used to as a deterrent for aerial follows or those who like to air dodge trap. Finally it has an ENORMOUS wind box when it lands which can not only make it "safe" but can also mess with people recovering at the ledge. I found that out on accident when failed spike attempt made a marth up b go flying away from the stage thanks to the windbox. Extremely situational but potentially just as powerful as Greninja's Up B in recovery. His zair seems to be a pretty good tool but not one I honestly try to use often so I won't talk about where that one lies.
- For the ground game, there's not much to write about here. He has tools comparable to normal link but they seem to recover faster in exchange for less range and knockback. Jab is a good and quick string as far as sword users go with jab1 and jab2 seemingly safe (haven't tested, but I haven't been punished for canceling them early), ftilt has good frontal space coverage and knockback (not kill worthy) and dtilt is good for stopping approaches and seems to be able to have a chance to get a trip at any percent, which is a free dash attack thanks to his running speed. Then we have utilt, which not only covers his front at back for people who get in close is a great combo tool at low percents (can go from 0% to 30% with the chance for an uair, nair, fair or bair follow up, can go a bit higher on heavies) and at higher percents is a set up for spot dodge traps (like the amazing uair).
- As for smashes, he has a nice selection with all killing at 100%+ range unless you get a really good read at the edge. Fsmash is a pretty solid hit confirmable kill move with the first part being pretty safe if you space it correctly just like Link's is. Dsmash is really just there if you notice a roll spamer but it is quick enough if you notice a gap and want someone in the air. Finally we get to probably his best smash, usmash. One of the fastest usmashes in the game, it's nearly as fast as his utilt, with pretty good power to kill around 100% plus and isn't totally unsafe. Combined with his running speed, Toon Link has access to one of the fastest running usmashes in the game.
-On to the grab game...it's alright. Everyone knows about how bad his tether grab if it misses and how he has one of the strongest bthrows in the game (it can even kill middle screen at 130ish%+, doesn't need to just be at the edge) but on to some other points. Dthrow at lower percents has a potential followup in bair and similarly uthrow to uair as previoiusly mentioned. Fthrow is much to right home about either. Perhaps the best strength of his throw game is that he allows him to set up his neutral game once again if he lands a shield on people who like to shield alot, which will be explained late.r
-Before going on to the big topic of Toon Link, a brief mention of his recovery. It's middle of the pack. Up B covers more of a distance the Links and his tether is also a pretty solid option. Toon's Link's jumps are also floatier so he has more time to attempt to recover. The main point where link wins in recovery is he has a much easier time using bombs to give him a second bomb then toon link. You can get a bomb, do a double jump, up b off the stage, and then not have the bomb explode until you're close to the bottom of the stage before the bomb will explode and allow you to up b again. That makes it much more situational then Link's but at the cost of a overall better recovery then his. So there's that.
-Finally, let's get on to Toon Link on shield, probably his biggest weakness. With all the greatness of his neutral game, it doesn't mean jack if the opponent just..doesn't want to move and hold down the shield button. That means that eventually Toon Link will have to approach unless both players want to end in a time out. However, with the slowness of his projectiles to step up that can give him some pressure to build upon when they are just there holding shield. Throw a boomerang behind you then throw a bomb as you run in to make them continue holding shield down then run behind them. If they try to attack you, the boomerang will hit them. If they block the boomerang, that's potential for a free grab or another bomb set up. Toon Link loses out if he just tries to "camp" on people who shield but if you incorporate his projectiles into a mid to close range game against people that want to overly shield, you have a lot of options to open them up. Reads happens sure, but they also happen on both sides.
-As for matchups, I haven't come across a single match up that I feel Toon Link really cannot fight and win. I haven't fought a Sonic as him but I can definately see why people think he has a good match up against them. I've fought plenty of Marios (which might be slightly in Toon Links favor) and Shiek (which she still has the advantage on but Toon Link can definately win thanks to his neutral game messing hers up). I believe @
Shaya
once mentioned that Toon Link has a good match up on ZSS a few months ago and I can agree on that, but it's probably closer to even then anything. Not sure what to say on other notable top tiers as I haven't fought many other then Diddy isn't that bad. His match up spread makes me think of a journeyman that doesn't really lose much but doesn't have many extremely high "I'm going to break you" match ups either.All in all, I'd say his final tier placement would probably be where the Pits are. A really strong fundamentals character that has pretty much everything he needs to win but doesn't severly outclass anyone but instead keeps up pace really well with everyone.
That's just the ramblings of some Toon Link player who never won a tournament or done anything notable but tried to make up some reasonings based on several months of off and on play for the people of this thread. I'm likely wrong on some things but I hope this gives a people a better idea of what Toon Links's capable of.
Thanks for reading.
Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
How does Lucario have bad neutral again? The matchup starts when he's past about 80% and gets a lot of shield safety. He has low lag aerials, good mobility (mainly b reverses, wavebounces and fox trots), probably the best standing grab in the game and a good projectile that becomes a real threat after around 120% where good Lucarios will consistently survive to. ASC is also a fairly safe setup to just fish for. The only reason Lucario isn't higher than 10th-20th is that he has pretty good tools all around but one hit and he loses everything, and the reason he isn't lower is that one hit and the opponent loses everything. Bad neutral isn't a part of it unless we're comparing to Sheik in which case everyone has bad neutral.
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Ffamran
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On another note, apparently Chris G plays Smash 4: http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios. He's apparently a Yoshi main. Is this what you needed Sinister Slush?! 
Edit: Never mind: He dead: http://bigegaming.challonge.com/sj9smash4d34. Lost to a DK player named Moosh in losers.
Edit: Never mind: He dead: http://bigegaming.challonge.com/sj9smash4d34. Lost to a DK player named Moosh in losers.
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Senko Zero
Smash Apprentice
I could be wrong, but I believe Chris G started in Smash way back in the Brawl days before transitioning over to Marvel and SF IV.On another note, apparently Chris G plays Smash 4: http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios. He's apparently a Yoshi main. Is this what you needed Sinister Slush?!
I mean that's fair, but how many matches has ZeRo dropped this tournament?
Sheik wins the neutral, definitely. But she's effectively "maximize Lucario's Aura - the character." I guess we'll see as the metagame progresses, but (no offense) Shiny may as well be an unknown player. The matches against ZeRo's Diddy weren't even close, while against the best character in the game, Shiny's Lucario managed to take a game off the best player in the world.
That tells me something. Though I do agree that Lucario's design makes it difficult to judge.
Disappointment awaited.On another note, apparently Chris G plays Smash 4: http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios. He's apparently a Yoshi main.Is this what you needed Sinister Slush?!
Edit: Never mind: He dead: http://bigegaming.challonge.com/sj9smash4d34. Lost to a DK player named Moosh in losers.
Relate to Pax stream right now.
Even though it sounds dickish of me, I really want people to stop referencing Sky as a top Yoshi. It's getting annoying at this point, outside of Raptor earning the fact people can mention him the only other Yoshi's people bring up is Sky (49th at apex he got for free since dabuz was DQ'd in winners of his pools so sky got a free ride up there, woo) and Slice (made a combo video and leddit loved it so he must be good right, even though we never watch his matches!)
Slice and Raptor are good, but outside of raptor, most of the Yoshi's commentators bring up they don't even know who they are. Sky just cause league and "lives with ZeRo" and Slice cuz of his vid.
I live in the same state as Trela Megafox Denti etc. does that make me a good Yoshi too like Sky?!
No lol
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A2ZOMG
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I actually wouldn't run EJP against Sheik because her edgeguard options are too strong and versatile to ignore, and she has no shortage of good hitboxes for contesting EJP recovery offstage even factoring Gust Cape stalling. EJP is better against like...ZSS who is extremely unlikely to punish most recoveries done correctly and baiting her with Gust Cape is more profitable for various reasons. Probably Fox too, though Fox does get better edgeguards with customs.
Top 3 in customs in order I would argue is Mario, Fox, and Pikachu probs. Mario's only probably stupid matchup in customs is custom DK given DK's Up-B options are too good at edgeguarding and combo breaking against Mario, but he beats everyone else basically, maybe goes about even against Fox.
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Antonykun
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NachoOfCheese
Smash Ace
Yeah but who DOESNT struggle against Customs Kong?
A2ZOMG
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Pretty sure Link does not give a **** about DK. Last I checked, he wins neutral and has so many ways to safely punish Custom Up-B even on platform stages, and I'm pretty sure he actually can edgeguard DK reasonably too.
All the characters I mentioned I'm pretty sure beat Villager convincingly.
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Routa
Smash Lord
Someone who uses their shields?
Ffamran
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And he was looking so strong... Well, I didn't see how he did against Moosh, but he was a patient Yoshi. Probably comes from his experience with other fighting games, but he made use of his time, safe options, and played neutral very well with Yoshi. Good player in a sense of he plays the basic fighting game of controlling space, dealing with the states of gameplay, and such well, but when it came to playing as Yoshi or playing Smash, I feel like he was missing some stuff. I don't know if he's comfortable with ledge trumps or if understands situations where air dodging can be punished by Yoshi's Fair - pretty much anything can punish air dodges, but he did retreating Nairs when his opponent air dodged.
Antonykun
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wait you're defining the top 3 in customs as who are the best in the customs metagame?
Where's sheik?
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
Unrelated but add Brazil to the list of places where Greninja is popular.
Just in my first tournament there were already 2 other Greninja other than me lol.
Just in my first tournament there were already 2 other Greninja other than me lol.
A2ZOMG
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The three I mentioned are better than her in customs.
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Pazx
hoo hah
I can't believe Wind Kong came up again, but here goes: the only characters who lose to Wind Kong are characters who lose to Donkey Kong to begin with.
Wintropy
Peace and love and all that jazzmatazz~! <3
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To be honest, the best DK player I know opts for default up-b even in custom events. He prefers the consistency and knows most people who practice for custom events practice near-exclusively to counter that move if a DK is expected to play.
Blobface
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Uh...
Kong Cyclone is basically a coin flip really. The way it links is really messy and thus, if you get caught in it, you can literally mash A and hit him out of it 50% of the time. It really is an overrated move, albeit terribly designed.
Kong Cyclone is basically a coin flip really. The way it links is really messy and thus, if you get caught in it, you can literally mash A and hit him out of it 50% of the time. It really is an overrated move, albeit terribly designed.
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Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
DK's up b is another case of a good default special getting a good custom special. If you choose to use a custom it's more of a trade-off than a straight upgrade. The default one is more reliable in many ways since you can't escape it or hit DK out of it while trapped in the windbox. The custom one autocanceling is pretty funky on platform stages but the default one dealing 35% fresh at low percents is a nice property too. Literally lose it every time I see the full up b connect, and even if you only land a few hits by breaking out of a combo it does like 20%.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Uhhhhh your L and R buttons? On the ground or the air, either works.
Understanding that he has to land on a platform and can't really duke you out in terms of which one he's aiming for?
Any aerial with a half decent speed particularly if its multhitting? It only has 2 hits after all, and the first one barely does anything to you.
Any command grab?
NachoOfCheese
Smash Ace
****. He knows.
Charoite
Smash Journeyman
8bitman 
takes a 136 man tournament, 2nd is a and 3rd is wizzrobe with .
Oh and the Spanish National was won by Robo~Luigi a player reseting the bracket, against a this is the second time he takes a national in spain.
Thoughts?
This is the bracket of the 136 tournament:http://challonge.com/es/Sm4sh4C4sh
takes a 136 man tournament, 2nd is a and 3rd is wizzrobe with .Oh and the Spanish National was won by Robo~Luigi a
player reseting the bracket, against a this is the second time he takes a national in spain.Thoughts?
This is the bracket of the 136 tournament:http://challonge.com/es/Sm4sh4C4sh
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lol at wind kong not being as good as default up-b.
It's miles ahead of the default move. The safety and edgeguarding and combo breaking potential is ridiculous. You can't really use the regular one much in neutral because you can't auto-cancel it, and you have far less mobility.
Regular DK does better than custom DK because the custom DK results were all pre-ding dong, and DK's current grab reward is far more potent of an attribute than wind kong was, custom DK now is likely super ridiculous now.
Just because the move has counterplay doesn't mean it's bad, and an essentially auto-pick in every matchup.
It's miles ahead of the default move. The safety and edgeguarding and combo breaking potential is ridiculous. You can't really use the regular one much in neutral because you can't auto-cancel it, and you have far less mobility.
Regular DK does better than custom DK because the custom DK results were all pre-ding dong, and DK's current grab reward is far more potent of an attribute than wind kong was, custom DK now is likely super ridiculous now.
Just because the move has counterplay doesn't mean it's bad, and an essentially auto-pick in every matchup.
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DunnoBro
The Free-est
Yea fast fireball and shocking cape are why I think mario beats sheik. You can beat her in the consistency game which is all she has, using EJP brings the possibility of you killing her super early but also allows her to do the same to you. Like I said most of his customs are match-up specific sidegrades. You don't always use fast fireball, shocking/gust cape, ejp, or any specific fludds.
There are matchups you'd want to run default, though. Mario's one of them. That move is beyond frustrating in that MU since it turns mario's low % strings against him.
I think the point is very few customs are "Straight upgrades" The default essentially has to be useless like skull bash.
Even dropkick has little point vs sonic or fox. Those characters are too grounded and too much more mobile for dropkick to help, but they're also always trying to get your landing which default gives another option. (Also vs sonic dropkick really doesn't help in gimp situation since his bthrow turns ganon around
)
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Trifroze
all is cheese, all is jank
The thing about shields vs Kong Cyclone is that you're not going to shield in the air, and there is no reason to throw the move out if your opponent is grounded in the neutral. No one is claiming that the move is so good that you can just whip it out at any point in the match and come out on top, and it doesn't need to be. It's a great move for making landing extremely tough for your opponent, the only downside being that it's unreliable and some characters just get away from it or break out with an attack.
Blobface
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Oh don't get me wrong, Kong Cyclone is a good move, one of the best, but it's not the terrifying unstoppable juggernaut of destruction it's been made out to be.
DunnoBro
The Free-est
Also, I really want to tackle the discussion of Yoshi's viability. People keep saying he's "top tier" not even high tier. TOP tier.
How? How is this character TOP tier? For those more sensible, how is he even HIGH tier?
I keep hearing "muh command grab" "uhdurr frame data" "muh jump armor" "combos" "nair" but when you ask about actual top tiers, you get a concise answer. "Neutral, Kill Confirms, character gimmicks"
What makes a character good? By general rule, it's a neutral, advantage, and/or disadvantage state that overall equals out to more than most of the cast does.
Now, the ratings thread is a little clustered at the moment so I'll try to keep those as a backseat to the main discussion of his viability, but yoshi does NOT have a good any of these.
Neutral? His neutral comprises heavily of harassment with eggs to force hopefully unsafe approaches. A lot of characters do this, but his egg toss have huge holes in the defensive game, most characters can just dash attack under them. With no shield grab, or grab combos, these unsafe approaches generally result in very minor punishes at best.
Advantage? While potent, he lacks NO guaranteed or even consistent 50/50s. He has a lot of pseudo-combos that catch people off-guard, but any familiarity at all leads to the opponent knowing how to avoid them. Without a good grab, he can't punish landings too well beyond dash attack. Egg toss is good continued pressure but it rarely converts into anything big with proper DI.
Lack of a good grab and grab combos makes him have likely the worst grab game in the cast. (samus at least has low % combos and more range/linger on her grab)
Disadvantage? Floatiness, double jump armor, air speed, and a great nair combo breaker are wonderful. But being so floaty with a very dedicated double jump makes his landings very suspect. Also no sweetspotting the ledge makes him one of the easier characters to ledge guard, though it often won't result in a gimp.
Overall: No consistent kill confirms, bad neutral, wonky disadvantage and his only character gimmicks are purely defensive. This leads to him being a very annoying character to fight and kill, which is likely why people who DON'T USE THE CHARACTER think he's good, but he isn't much of a threat on his own.
How? How is this character TOP tier? For those more sensible, how is he even HIGH tier?
I keep hearing "muh command grab" "uhdurr frame data" "muh jump armor" "combos" "nair" but when you ask about actual top tiers, you get a concise answer. "Neutral, Kill Confirms, character gimmicks"
What makes a character good? By general rule, it's a neutral, advantage, and/or disadvantage state that overall equals out to more than most of the cast does.
Now, the ratings thread is a little clustered at the moment so I'll try to keep those as a backseat to the main discussion of his viability, but yoshi does NOT have a good any of these.
Neutral? His neutral comprises heavily of harassment with eggs to force hopefully unsafe approaches. A lot of characters do this, but his egg toss have huge holes in the defensive game, most characters can just dash attack under them. With no shield grab, or grab combos, these unsafe approaches generally result in very minor punishes at best.
Advantage? While potent, he lacks NO guaranteed or even consistent 50/50s. He has a lot of pseudo-combos that catch people off-guard, but any familiarity at all leads to the opponent knowing how to avoid them. Without a good grab, he can't punish landings too well beyond dash attack. Egg toss is good continued pressure but it rarely converts into anything big with proper DI.
Lack of a good grab and grab combos makes him have likely the worst grab game in the cast. (samus at least has low % combos and more range/linger on her grab)
Disadvantage? Floatiness, double jump armor, air speed, and a great nair combo breaker are wonderful. But being so floaty with a very dedicated double jump makes his landings very suspect. Also no sweetspotting the ledge makes him one of the easier characters to ledge guard, though it often won't result in a gimp.
Overall: No consistent kill confirms, bad neutral, wonky disadvantage and his only character gimmicks are purely defensive. This leads to him being a very annoying character to fight and kill, which is likely why people who DON'T USE THE CHARACTER think he's good, but he isn't much of a threat on his own.
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A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Both Default and Kong Cyclone are good vs Mario's combos, but I'd give the nod to default PRIMARILY because of the gimp potential offstage. It reliably beats Mario's Up-Bs and given Mario doesn't go very far on default, that can kill him. This is a matchup where Mario probably could consider Super Jump, in all honesty.There are matchups you'd want to run default, though. Mario's one of them. That move is beyond frustrating in that MU since it turns mario's low % strings against him.
I think the point is very few customs are "Straight upgrades" The default essentially has to be useless like skull bash.
Even dropkick has little point vs sonic or fox. Those characters are too grounded and too much more mobile for dropkick to help, but they're also always trying to get your landing which default gives another option. (Also vs sonic dropkick really doesn't help in gimp situation since his bthrow turns ganon around
Dropkick actually is helpful vs Sonic for not clanking and because it's harder to bait specifically by dashing away. Though I'd argue vs Sonic specifically Down-B really comes down to preference.
Aside from Dropkick covering long range dash-away baits very slightly better, also custom Fox's edgeguards are actually scary enough to warrant boosting Ganon's recovery, on top of the fact it's very difficult to actually hit Fox with aerial Wizkick due to his frame data and movement speed both vertically and horizontally. It looks counterintuitive but I've found that default just so happens to be less useful against Fox due to the ranges he wants to play at vs Ganon.
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Yoshi has one of the best disadvantaged states in the game. It's barely a disadvantage, he's almost impossible to combo for many characters, because of his combination of high weight (so low hitstun on many combo moves), floatiness (hard to combo in general because goes too high) and 3 frame nair. Seriously, yoshi can nair out of mario's dair until mid %s, and tonnes of moves aren't safe on hit for ages. And even when he can't nair out of stuff, double jump gives him super armor on frame 1 I believe, so anything that isn't a frame tight combo doesn't work. You see esam thunder out of stuff like sheik f-tilt > grab, yoshi can double jump out of stuff like that until far higher %s, and against far more moves (lots of rapid jabs never work vs him). He's only lacking a monkey flip or bouncing fish (though down-b is super threatening and demands a lot of respect, though extremely easy to punish), but all his other attributes are top tier for escaping anything. I struggle to think of any characters besides a few other top tiers who care less about being hit or being in a disadvantaged situation.
And yea, his air speed is top tier, I think the best or second best in the game, and he has a b-reverse command grab for anyone trying to catch his landing. If he's off-stage, he can throw eggs to cover anyone waiting near the ledge and get back basically for free, plus there's the risk of just getting fair'd if you try and go out to challenge him.
Plus he's heavy, so he outrades everyone (except like Luigi). Yoshi might not have the best juggle game or neutral, but nobody (well ZSS, maybe Rosalina i guess) has good options to continuously juggle yoshi, so it evens out. Other character's have far lower reward vs Yoshi than they'd normally expect, and since ultimately a character's viability comes down to their risk/reward, Yoshi fares pretty well.
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David Viran
Smash Lord
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I've been wondering about this if everybody talks about zss's frame 16 grab being reactable then how is yoshi's frame 21 command grab going to work.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
Because in a high pressure environment all you know is Yoshi is doing something and you might not realize what it is until it's too late (and you're already shielding on reaction to that something).
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TriTails
Smash Lord
Because Yoshi has excellent wavebounce to let him dash outta the spot immediately instead of crouching there with a pistol in your front for about 1.5 seconds.
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Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
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Yoshi's air speed is the fastest in the game at 1.28 followed by Jigglypuff at 1.269 and Roy at something above 1.21 which is Wario's air speed. Fun fact: if Yoshi kept his Brawl air speed, he'd be even faster at 1.316 which is slower than Jigglypuff's Melee air speed of 1.35. Also, Wario's air speed was slightly nerfed from Brawl to Smash 4; it used to be 1.222 tied with Wolf's. Sheik went from being the slower air moving characters to one of the faster moving ones; Brawl Sheik had an air speed of 0.846 while Smash 4 Sheik's air speed is 1.1 tied with Captain Falcon, Duck Hunt, and Mega Man. Speaking of the Capt., he took a hit from Brawl's 1.18 to Smash 4's 1.11 which is just 0.01 slower than his Melee air speed. There's also Bowser whose Melee air speed was bad at 0.8, good in Brawl at 1.034 tied with ZSS, and now average at 0.98 in Smash 4. Now, how all of this translates to air control, I have no idea. For example, Ike's air speed is good, but he's stuck in that direction and Little Mac's air speed is actually average, but he has like no air control - if I remember correctly, he's at the bottom.
Also, more fun facts: did you know pheasants can reach 60 miles per hour while flying? Normally, they fly at around 27 to 38 mph, but they can reach a high speed in a short burst. Kind of like "sprinting" or basically, get the hell out of dodge flight mode. Also, they run at around 8 to 10 mph - same as chickens - and the same as humans for sustained jogging and not sprinting which apparently, humans can reach 40 mph in theory... Anyway, who's a pheasant and one of the slowest moving characters in the game with average air mobility? Falco. This has been your daily Falco rant which has wasted precious minutes of your time.
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