Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

I said bowser beats ness, I never said handily

Ness just has a much harder time landing his b&b combos on Bowser due to a lack of viable setups
I don't think it's anything beyond 55:45 Bowser and it's probably even most of the time, but with Ness being lightweight and Bowser having pretty handy KO power as a heavy and decent mobility for a heavy isn't too bad for him.

Kirby goes even with sheik though, I never thought it was Kirby's favor but it's notable when talking about Kirby

Ness isn't incapable of getting grabs just because he can't PK Fire Bowser. Bowser has laggy moves and so he leaves himself open to grabs and then proceeds to get combo'd badly.

I really cannot see how Bowser beats Ness in any way. Ness is not even a lightweight and if Bowser wins because of the reasons you listed then the same applies to pretty much 80% of the cast.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon's u-tilt is kinda ok against characters who's recoveries don't sweetspot the ledge. It might actually be good if it wasn't on a character that gets exponentially more reward from actually going off the stage to use aerials.

A certain boxer would probably love it.

 

[CommanderRin]

I see a lot of Marcina's using F-air and the likes almost excessively, in my opinion N-air is almost always the better neutral (pun not intended) option, but I'm curious as to what you guys think.

My line of thought is...
Less landing lag
Hitbox comes out 3 times (twice in front, and behind once)
First hit is fast

*shrug*

 

[Ffamran]

Ganon's u-tilt is kinda ok against characters who's recoveries don't sweetspot the ledge. It might actually be good if it wasn't on a character that gets exponentially more reward from actually going off the stage to use aerials.

A certain boxer would probably love it.

It's also hella disjointed.

 

[Tainic]

Though aside from Lil Mac and some Side Bs such as Falcon's/Ganon's/Pits', what moves doesnt autoledgesnap in SSB4 ? It seems to me that Bair/Fair/Dair/Uair/Anything/Etc is a better option to edgeguard rather than a laggy move that can leave you heavily exposed if mistimed.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

.

Though aside from Lil Mac and some Side Bs such as Falcon's/Ganon's/Pits', what moves doesnt autoledgesnap in SSB4 ? It seems to me that Bair/Fair/Dair/Uair/Anything/Etc is a better option to edgeguard rather than a laggy move that can leave you heavily exposed if mistimed.

Kirby and Ike's Up B on the way up. Maybe D3's as well?

 

[C0rvus]

Shulk's first rising slash in Air Slash doesn't snap. The followup slash does, though. Plenty of characters' recoveries don't snap until later in the move's ascent; Peach's Parasol, Toon Link's Spin Attack, etc require you to drop a bit before you use it, lest you be punished.

 

[Tainic]

Doesn't Shulk/Ike UpB hit Ganon and interrupt his attack on the way up tho ? Others mostly require just to properly space your UpB. (Debatable for Kirby. (Also DDD's UpB has Super Armor and autoledgesnaps so I don't think it really helps.))

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I said bowser beats ness, I never said handily

Ness just has a much harder time landing his b&b combos on Bowser due to a lack of viable setups
I don't think it's anything beyond 55:45 Bowser and it's probably even most of the time, but with Ness being lightweight and Bowser having pretty handy KO power as a heavy and decent mobility for a heavy isn't too bad for him.

Kirby goes even with sheik though, I never thought it was Kirby's favor but it's notable when talking about Kirby

I don't think there's a true statement in this entire post.

 

[Vipermoon]

I see a lot of Marcina's using F-air and the likes almost excessively, in my opinion N-air is almost always the better neutral (pun not intended) option, but I'm curious as to what you guys think.

My line of thought is...
Less landing lag
Hitbox comes out 3 times (twice in front, and behind once)
First hit is fast

*shrug*

The sword covers Marth 3 times in front actually. Watch it in slow motion. This is something few people know. The "second" swing is actually 360 degrees around him. This is why landing with Nair is so good.

 

[Shaya]

@ Ulevo , I wouldn't really want to create a petty back and forth here,
but yes, I do think MK has an unbalanced part of his moveset. And the fact you don't and are defending MK while your thoughts on Mii Brawler and how they're problematic in the past is barely different definitely seems hypocritical.
"If people weren't ignorant" can be used for anything in this game. "If people weren't biased" can too (I've been wary of MK since at least 1.06). "You should know better" and 'I'm busy' don't really add anything to your statement, besides increasing the necessity for me to retort, I know better.

But overall, it's just an opinion. I think MK will finally start to get grilled for his merits on a wider basis, and we'll see if he continues to grow or his bubble pops. I agree that critical downers for development, like having dysfunctional aerials, poor SHAD game (actually I should check if this is the case) and no B-reverse/wavebouncing options will hurt in the long-term, but it's feasible he doesn't need them to still be top tier.

I see a lot of Marcina's using F-air and the likes almost excessively, in my opinion N-air is almost always the better neutral (pun not intended) option, but I'm curious as to what you guys think.

My line of thought is...
Less landing lag
Hitbox comes out 3 times (twice in front, and behind once)
First hit is fast

*shrug*

Probably would get a better conversation for this in the land of heroes, but:
Fair isn't that usable, yet. But it is "easier" to make work than neutral air. The main thing about nair is while it's big horizontal range and long active frames, where the animation is hitting isn't as "easy" as fair is.
You can't really nair people from a rising jump (you can get some taller characters but it doesn't knock them into the second hit like, ever) but in general you're thinking of it as a pseudo-wall (you're trying to outspace something) or as a move that covers multiple options.
Even though nair has less landing lag, I tend to find it just isn't setting up for a follow up as well as forward air, very likely to do with the impact of an arcing hitbox (trajectory hit can be between like 95 and 225 degrees because of it although it's just a sakurai angle; while nair is going to be 45 degrees (well, 135 in this relation). 45 degree angle hitboxes are pretty bad for follow ups (unless they're pre-tumble and sending into the ground) or you have negative lag + amazing mobility (Fox kinda).

 

[Thinkaman]

I got to play a little bit more before the Kickstarter launched. I remain really bullish on Robin, though I doubt he is top half. The superior threat and safety of his *Thunder spells crossed a barrier where it now pushes so many more matchups to play his game and force the opponent to be proactive, mitigating Robin's speed.

I really wish people would stop saying "But Robin is so slow!!!" Yes, and Luigi has trash mobility, ZSS's grab sucks, and Little Mac sucks in the air. Pointing out obvious flaws doesn't add anything to the discussion, even if it doesn't make them go away either.


Also, WTF at WFT's buff to Deep Breathing--it now increases damage and knockback by 20%. This is on top of modest damage and knockback increases to half her moves. Charged u-smash can kill Mario on a lower platform on 3DS Battlefield in the 30s.

I don't think people grasp how absurd Deep Breathing WFT's KO percentages are now. Even u-throw is probably formidable on most stages!



I won't be posting that much, because as I alluded to earlier I'm currently running a Kickstarter for WitchHunt. My experience in Smash had a huge influence on its development from a design perspective, with ideas like yomi as a gameplay foundation or maximizing player agency. Additionally, tons of Smash players have playtested the game at one point or another in the last 8 years.

I hesitated to mention this here, since I don't want to spam you guys. But this is too big a part of my life to not share with people I am genuinely fond of, and I know the competitively minded players here would enjoy something like this. If you ever wanted to say thanks for my work on BBrawl, the patch notes, or some other bullcrap I posted on the internet, well, I guess this is it.



Also, to keep things firmly on topic: I maintain that Bowser is a hard counter to Ness and basically wins the match at the character select screen, so long as on that screen you move your icon two characters over to Rosalina.

 

[Tainic]

^ Robin's speed isn't really a problem anymore unless he's facing really speedy charas that can outright ignore his projectile game and the few chars that force him to approach anyway.

Marth talk

btw I meant to ask, is there anywhere I can see stuff about that Fair > Fsmash thing you mentionned earlier ? I'm curious about how reliable it is.

 

[Vipermoon]

I got to play a little bit more before the Kickstarter launched. I remain really bullish on Robin, though I doubt he is top half. The superior threat and safety of his *Thunder spells crossed a barrier where it now pushes so many more matchups to play his game and force the opponent to be proactive, mitigating Robin's speed.

I really wish people would stop saying "But Robin is so slow!!!" Yes, and Luigi has trash mobility, ZSS's grab sucks, and Little Mac sucks in the air. Pointing out obvious flaws doesn't add anything to the discussion, even if it doesn't make them go away either.


Also, WTF at WFT's buff to Deep Breathing--it now increases damage and knockback by 20%. This is on top of modest damage and knockback increases to half her moves. Charged u-smash can kill Mario on a lower platform on 3DS Battlefield in the 30s.

I don't think people grasp how absurd Deep Breathing WFT's KO percentages are now. Even u-throw is probably formidable on most stages!



I won't be posting that much, because as I alluded to earlier I'm currently running a Kickstarter for WitchHunt. My experience in Smash had a huge influence on its development from a design perspective, with ideas like yomi as a gameplay foundation or maximizing player agency. Additionally, tons of Smash players have playtested the game at one point or another in the last 8 years.

I hesitated to mention this here, since I don't want to spam you guys. But this is too big a part of my life to not share with people I am genuinely fond of, and I know the competitively minded players here would enjoy something like this. If you ever wanted to say thanks for my work on BBrawl, the patch notes, or some other bullcrap I posted on the internet, well, I guess this is it.



Also, to keep things firmly on topic: I maintain that Bowser is a hard counter to Ness and basically wins the match at the character select screen, so long as on that screen you move your icon two characters over to Rosalina.

Thank you for this: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

It has helped me more than you'll know.

 

[FullMoon]

Also, to keep things firmly on topic: I maintain that Bowser is a hard counter to Ness and basically wins the match at the character select screen,

"Oh come on, not you too."

... so long as on that screen you move your icon two characters over to Rosalina.

You still make the best posts.

 

[Shaya]

^ Robin's speed isn't really a problem anymore unless he's facing really speedy charas that can outright ignore his projectile game and the few chars that force him to approach anyway.



btw I meant to ask, is there anywhere I can see stuff about that Fair > Fsmash thing you mentionned earlier ? I'm curious about how reliable it is.

2 frames more reliable than it used to be.

If I catch people with untippered fair, hitting them at the early part of the hitbox (so they're above me) and they're holding in/forward, forward smash is very "reliable".
Like, I've gotten the exact same thing pre-buffs before, just usually on human characters with awkward air specs like Pit, now... more common.

Just so I make it obvious, I'm not a fan of fair to fsmash being a reliable thing. I think if in general you're holding away it shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Maybe getting said follow up as a tipper is "hard" enough... I'm just used to seeing that fair hit or air dodge or something and going "GG", flicking a finger, and then it being GG.
If we want a top tier Marth, then 2 more frames off his aerials would very likely do it. The 2 frame difference has made the once a set, maybe once per match (3 stocks) if I'm lucky to something that does seem to occur at least once a match, another 2 would probably make it as real as dash attack shuttle loop and would be killing either around the same as that or [potentially a lot] earlier.

As I say, maybe tipper fsmash aiming is balanced around "skill" enough, but gosh does it seem very dangerous for the likes of me who has been playing Marth in tournaments for more than half a decade.

But yeah, Marth loses to characters like Ness, Luigi and to a lesser extent ZSS because of the reliability of damage/set ups/kills between them. Luigi would still maintain itself as an absolute ***** to approach, but would suddenly look feasibly even or better for us because Marth would just need to get a fair at around 50% once (although his nair is good for hitting our hand as fsmash comes out) to end a stock. Our 1/4th or worse chance of not getting grabbed by him trying to hit him would measure up well. But if the dynamic is like that, how silly is it? Two polarizing aspects of characters being thrown at each other and the one with the more ridiculous one coming out on top. Not good/fun (well, it would be fun to see Luigi player's reactions at first, waiting for the inevitable "that's SO STUPID OH MY GOD" and maniacal laughter).

 

[Ulevo]

@ Ulevo , I wouldn't really want to create a petty back and forth here,
but yes, I do think MK has an unbalanced part of his moveset. And the fact you don't and are defending MK while your thoughts on Mii Brawler and how they're problematic in the past is barely different definitely seems hypocritical.
"If people weren't ignorant" can be used for anything in this game. "If people weren't biased" can too (I've been wary of MK since at least 1.06). "You should know better" and 'I'm busy' don't really add anything to your statement, besides increasing the necessity for me to retort, I know better.

Using dated opinions that I may or may no longer share is not going to help a productive conversation. Particularly when they are used to call me hypocritical when you main ZSS, a character that takes the strides of Meta Knight's 'imbalanced' traits to a whole new level. If you have to refer to historical artifacts to discredit me as a basis for your argument then I am not sure the conversation is worth having. This is what I meant by you should know better.

 

[Nobie]

I was thinking for a while that, after the last couple of patches that Diddy's poor aerial mobility is finally revealing itself to be a legitimate weakness now that up air isn't so tremendously powerful...

...but then I remembered Zero's banana peel air dash shenanigans at EVO.

I don't think Diddy is super OP or anything, but why is it that they just can't let Diddy have that as a vulnerability?

 

[C0rvus]

Thoughts of the public on Duck Hunt? I am halfway between wanting to main him and wanting to strangle him. He has a number of desirable qualities; good neutral, frame traps and setups through stage control. If only he could kill things and I didn't have to worry about a single read at 70% ruining all my hard work trying to close a stock. He has been given attention in the most recent patch, but they were mostly fixes and not buffs. His f-smash still doesn't work properly, but it's a little better.

He just currently feels a bit incomplete and it sucks because he's such a cool character design and play-style wise. It's not like he has no results of anything, but there's pessimism about the character everywhere and I cannot help but feel it is well-founded.

 

[Shaya]

Who's the guy being dishonest here? You're hiding away from discussing ("i'm busy" and absolutely no debatable point whatsoever; "you main ZSS", nothing about what I've said and how I came to that conclusion) this while only trying to make it a conversation about bias. And that original post you had to reply to was "old" as well and explicitly stated "theory"; theory long lasting kinda backed by one anecdotal instance (hence I still call it theory); that shuttle loop is too good (literal shaya wouldn't put MK at top 5/top tier right now). And MK having many other buffs given to compensate how centralised his kit is to that move from its tune down would be a great result.

Do you know how little I'd care about 1%s taken off some of ZSS' moves? Knockback and stuff being tuned down on moves like Boost Kick and Flip Jump?
Quite little.
Because her weaknesses would stay the same, her strengths would stay the same, and people would get a little less upset dying sub 100% from a move that half the cast (or a larger majority of top tier) fall out of with high likelihood.
Getting it to kill that early already requiring pretty steep technical timing and positions. She doesn't get up air strings out of throws unless you DI bad (or are fat), or actually really any move unless you DI poorly or it's a paralyzer hit (even neutral air; although landing nair up air upb is a long-ish lasting window, but we'd probably opt for Flip Jump now and in the future instead as Up-B is honestly too unreliable).

I brush abrasively against all the emotionally attached player mains during these conversations, but the balance team somehow ends up agreeing on average with things I coin abusive.
And the hypocrisy bit was more the jumping on someone for thinking apart of their kit is silly, although you're fully aware the response people will have from it on either side. Not that "Mii brawler is silly hence I can't say MK is not silly without being a hypocrite" (although heck, it's more of a point relating to something someone's said more than just "ZSS main bias").

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'm actually surprised that Diddy hasn't had his Peanut Popgun cancel removed yet.

Was that a thing explicitly mentioned by the developers as being an intentional quirk? Because between that, Monkey Flip, and Banana Peel B-reversing, Diddy can toggle his aerial momentum direction on a whim a total of three times. Some characters barely get one.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Random, but Mewtwo and Duck Hunt are the only characters in the game that can use two airdodges in a full hop and still dodge cancel the landing lag. I don't know if this is useful at all, but Mewtwo's airdodge is stupidly good while he's a bad character. Duck Hunt’s airdodge is now stupidly good yet he's at least a decent character. Did the buff really make his airdodge as good as Mewtwo's?

 

[sillyjeff]

Most of these buff would be unnecessary unless really tiny. Usmash is fine right now except for range but even that is ok. Same with jab. Utilt combo into every aerial, itself, usamash, faraore wind etc... What buff could be ok?
Ftilt is garbage but what should be buff in him? Dair is possibly one of the best of the game, fsmash is ok. Only buff i would love is reduced iasa on dtilt, to make it a combo move which actually combo into important stuff.
Yeah every zelda move could have a buff, but with only three of her move (dtilt, ftilt and nair) buffed you could make her jump in the top 20.

Samus's jab is atrocious. It needs to be fixed. The fact that jab1 doesn't combo into jab2 is a huge deal and makes her jab nearly useless.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Marth's ability to combo into tipper Fsmash is really what he needed since the game came out. Now he has
Utilt -> Fsmash
Fair-> Fsmash
Jab -> Fsmash

When the game first came out, all he had was shield break -> Fsmash. We've come a long way.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm actually surprised that Diddy hasn't had his Peanut Popgun cancel removed yet.

Was that a thing explicitly mentioned by the developers as being an intentional quirk? Because between that, Monkey Flip, and Banana Peel B-reversing, Diddy can toggle his aerial momentum direction on a whim a total of three times. Some characters barely get one.

I mean, all characters have the ability to wavebounce their specials, some of which are useful. Diddy just happens to have really, really good specials. Their use goes beyond their primary function, as do those of other characters. ZSS has a very good and functional wavebounce on her Paralyzer, as well as the same on her (much less useful) side special, AND her Flip Kick with frame 3 invincibility that can go left or right. So isn't just Diddy. Ryu, I imagine can has his FADC air dash and can wavebounce fireballs I think, though I have no idea how.

 

[PK Gaming]

I got to play a little bit more before the Kickstarter launched. I remain really bullish on Robin, though I doubt he is top half. The superior threat and safety of his *Thunder spells crossed a barrier where it now pushes so many more matchups to play his game and force the opponent to be proactive, mitigating Robin's speed.

I really wish people would stop saying "But Robin is so slow!!!" Yes, and Luigi has trash mobility, ZSS's grab sucks, and Little Mac sucks in the air. Pointing out obvious flaws doesn't add anything to the discussion, even if it doesn't make them go away either.

No, Robin being too slow is a legitimately concern, and it feels like you're vastly overvaluing his buffs. He's gotten better (significantly so), but his buffs sure as hell haven't mitigated his core problems. And no offense, but this isn't the first time you've blown Robin's strengths out of proportion. Hype for a newly buffed character is fine, but it can be dangerously misleading.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm a bit late but Ness pretty much invalidates Bowser. Sorry.

 

[sillyjeff]

No, Robin being too slow is a legitimately concern, and it feels like you're vastly overvaluing his buffs. He's gotten better (significantly so), but his buffs sure as hell haven't mitigated his core problems. And no offense, but this isn't the first time you've blown Robin's strengths out of proportion. Hype for a newly buffed character is fine, but it can be dangerously misleading.

To add to this, having the slowest run speed in the game plus having a terrible grab range makes using the new down throw buff incredibly hard to even use. Yeah, it's a great buff if you can actually manage to get a grab. But getting a grab with Robin is still incredibly difficult.

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, Robin being slow is an intentional part of his design that isn't going to change. This attribute is the thing that primarily hurts his presence in the meta, since speed is so important in this game. He doesn't have any abusive tools that make up for this big weakness. He probably won't ever get something to make up for it, which is fine because it would take some busted crap to make him high tier. Mewtwo is similarly hurt by his attributes, and so is Rosalina (but Luma makes up for it mostly).

I do think that the best buff was on Arcthunder. It is a tool that must be respected, and it fits perfectly with Robin's design. I would love to see a similar cooldown reduction on Arcfire. I feel it would make his stage control more threatening and flesh out his reward without focusing on landing grabs. He could more effectively threaten space, and his ability to follow up after projectile traps is what makes him so interesting to begin with.

 

[Vipermoon]

I mean, Robin being slow is an intentional part of his design that isn't going to change. This attribute is the thing that primarily hurts his presence in the meta, since speed is so important in this game. He doesn't have any abusive tools that make up for this big weakness. He probably won't ever get something to make up for it, which is fine because it would take some busted crap to make him high tier. Mewtwo is similarly hurt by his attributes, and so is Rosalina (but Luma makes up for it mostly).

I do think that the best buff was on Arcthunder. It is a tool that must be respected, and it fits perfectly with Robin's design. I would love to see a similar cooldown reduction on Arcfire. I feel it would make his stage control more threatening and flesh out his reward without focusing on landing grabs. He could more effectively threaten space, and his ability to follow up after projectile traps is what makes him so interesting to begin with.

He might eventually get a similar Arcfire buff. I say this because right now you can roll into him on reaction when he does Arcfire and still have a major frame advantage punish of your choice.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
In no patch have they ever changed a character attribute such as speed or weight. Such changes should not be hoped for or suggested as they are almost definitely not going to happen.

 

[Shaya]

Robin is still a character with a lot higher "depth" available to them than most others; "overloaded kit". It's something I was saying early on to the underwhelming thoughts coming in from Robin players (and I did have some success convincing albeit it didn't result in a viable character). But certain factors just made them unrewarding when you think they should be; you get a grab and something like back throw won't kill someone at 150%, a down/up throw that no follow ups were ever real from, and their most "overwhelming" moves (likely which she was tuned in relation too) are reactable by most players and punishable on the roll in.
I also overrated how having bronze and levin sword together as a "switch" made them. Funnily enough I don't know if I ever asked, but what's stopping Robin doing bronze aerial chains into a levin finisher? If this were a thing I'd probably switch back to "overloaded kit at a reasonable strength".

Now the dthrow is giving them jab and up tilts, which is a fair amount of damage and sets up positioning well. All the three earlier thunder spells are buffed and perhaps there's more options/usages to procure of thunder tome than people gave credit for (Elthunder probably gets used a lot less than it should?).

The ability to catch tomes/levin swords that expire is still probably way too hard although it's part of the overloaded kit rhetoric. A few more gifts/QoL changes here and I think the whole strategy part of Robin will start to explode favourably. If the tomes/sword got released like 5 frames later in these animations, one it would remove the whole "HAH HAH you got hit and stopped being able to punish me" part a bit, but would mean the likelihood of them actually getting to hold onto it would be a lot better and they'd vastly be improved for it.

 

[Amadeus9]

I just have to say the buffs to Elthunder have made this move fantastic. It's basically a charged Falco laser. The damage and knockback on it are decent, and the reduced end lag has helped tremendously. The buffs Robin have been getting are starting to make him/her look like a strong, cohesive character imo.

I do agree I wish the items were easier to get a hold of, they're hard to see and only last about a second, which is annoying considering how good the items are.

 

[Smog Frog]

why are we so quick to make comparisons of moves to laser

 

[PUK]

Samus's jab is atrocious. It needs to be fixed. The fact that jab1 doesn't combo into jab2 is a huge deal and makes her jab nearly useless.

I was talking about zelda's jab. It's the slowest of the game starting on frame 11, but between the las hit and the moment zelda can act again less than 10 frame happens. While most jab of the game lag for 20-30 frame.
And it's disjoint and transcendant, making it the only safe in neutral tool zelda has, and one of the few truly safe move of the game.

 

[bc1910]

I would take a Flip Jump nerf over a damage or knockback nerf to any of ZSS's moves. The invincibility on Flip Jump pushes an otherwise strong-but-balanced character over the edge by giving her THAT disadvantage state. Make the invincibility shorter + later in the move (or remove it altogether, why is it even there? And for 10 frames, really?) and suddenly she's comboable on a read. Her disadvantage would still be well above average as she still has burst mobility, but I don't see what would be wrong with giving her burst mobility you can actually challenge.

I also loathe the fact she lands with almost no landing lag on whiff and from the forced footstool but, through gritted teeth, I can admit that it's only a problem online. Your punishes won't be precise enough there, but a flip jump whiff is easier to punish offline. So whilst I certainly wouldn't be complaining if they changed the landing behaviour, the move's use as a get out of jail free card is much more problematic.

Sheik needs this treatment too but that's another story.

 

[PK Gaming]

I just have to say the buffs to Elthunder have made this move fantastic. It's basically a charged Falco laser. The damage and knockback on it are decent, and the reduced end lag has helped tremendously. The buffs Robin have been getting are starting to make him/her look like a strong, cohesive character imo.

I do agree I wish the items were easier to get a hold of, they're hard to see and only last about a second, which is annoying considering how good the items are.

Something to keep in mind:

Elthunder is finite so it's not really comparable to Falco's laser. It's a strong pressuring tool for sure, but using it repeatedly basically turns Robin into Revolver Ocelot.

7 shots... this time, I've got 7 shots.

Reloading like this... is a revolution.

Alright, i'm alive again!

etc

 

[TTTTTsd]

Who's the guy being dishonest here? You're hiding away from discussing ("i'm busy" and absolutely no debatable point whatsoever; "you main ZSS", nothing about what I've said and how I came to that conclusion) this while only trying to make it a conversation about bias. And that original post you had to reply to was "old" as well and explicitly stated "theory"; theory long lasting kinda backed by one anecdotal instance (hence I still call it theory); that shuttle loop is too good (literal shaya wouldn't put MK at top 5/top tier right now). And MK having many other buffs given to compensate how centralised his kit is to that move from its tune down would be a great result.

Do you know how little I'd care about 1%s taken off some of ZSS' moves? Knockback and stuff being tuned down on moves like Boost Kick and Flip Jump?
Quite little.
Because her weaknesses would stay the same, her strengths would stay the same, and people would get a little less upset dying sub 100% from a move that half the cast (or a larger majority of top tier) fall out of with high likelihood.
Getting it to kill that early already requiring pretty steep technical timing and positions. She doesn't get up air strings out of throws unless you DI bad (or are fat), or actually really any move unless you DI poorly or it's a paralyzer hit (even neutral air; although landing nair up air upb is a long-ish lasting window, but we'd probably opt for Flip Jump now and in the future instead as Up-B is honestly too unreliable).

I brush abrasively against all the emotionally attached player mains during these conversations, but the balance team somehow ends up agreeing on average with things I coin abusive.
And the hypocrisy bit was more the jumping on someone for thinking apart of their kit is silly, although you're fully aware the response people will have from it on either side. Not that "Mii brawler is silly hence I can't say MK is not silly without being a hypocrite" (although heck, it's more of a point relating to something someone's said more than just "ZSS main bias").

I'll chip in for him and I've been messing around with ZSS lately! ( She's quite fun, I remember you telling us to thank the lord she has a tether grab, and I'm 100% inclined to agree, yikes).

What bc said earlier was true, she doesn't strike me as that bad (perhaps they could make fatties and ROB especially able to escape the deadly Boost Kick) outside of her Flip Jump. I feel like if they had to keep invul, just make it for 2-3 frames, but I'd rather it have none at all. I really think that's the largest "dumb" thing about ZSS and about the only one that matters to me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm a bit late but Ness pretty much invalidates Bowser. Sorry.

Chances are that Ness won't even get to invalidate Bowser though because Sheik, ZSS and Fox already make short work of that character :/

Is there anybody that Bowser does decently against?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Chances are that Ness won't even get to invalidate Bowser though because Sheik, ZSS and Fox already make short work of that character :/

Is there anybody that Bowser does decently against?

He does fine vs most of the cast, there's just a couple of top tier MUs that he has to play REALLY differently in.

I think he's still upper mid tier though, underrated character.