Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Baby_Sneak]

Chances are that Ness won't even get to invalidate Bowser though because Sheik, ZSS and Fox already make short work of that character :/

Is there anybody that Bowser does decently against?

I assume bowser does well against all characters that are not top or high.

 

[Shaya]

Maybe my own hyperbole has come back to bite me. So let's talk about this a bit.
Flip Jump is great for avoiding a single read (or reacted) overzealous movement for avoidance. It's auto footstool is a significant downer to the move that she can't avoid against any fast jumper for the most part, even on reaction. It heavily limits this move in every fathomable way, people's counter play to this move is widespread in our region and seemingly every region with active ZSS.
It's not definitively better than a jump air dodge is in disadvantaged state; is it broken she has "two" to most characters one? Possibly.
A lot of the time that invincibility won't be what let's her avoid something, but the movement itself. The amount of distance she gains before she loses invincibility isn't particular large either (she does get a large amount of movement throughout the move though).

It may be the best move in the game, I won't deny that (I revel in that actually; Marth's nair in brawl level admiration [was the best move in brawl]). It's very obnoxious on wifi as well (but so is full hop air dodging, something Japan [and shulk players] has showed me they love, especially against ZSS as it beats flip jumping with the same degree of thoughtlessness).

Did the same picture come to mind from the second paragraph as I intended? Sheiks and Marios stalking her movements? (+insert your character here) Her aerials themselves are not good in disadvantaged state either (exempting air dodge uair). But if you're close and really focusing on her landing (all things that go up, must come down) the best she can do is go for a platform or off stage/the ledge; neither of which stops her being in disadvantaged state [but the ledge does give us another flip jump], and if she does come close enough to the ground without using it is down to that singular timing for power shielding the nair or bair or just straight up out prioritizing it (Mario Up Smash, all of sheik's aerials/ground moves, etc etc).

Just about every high tier other than Luigi can really capitalize on poorly used Flip Jumps. Do you see Nairo break disadvantage state with the move? No. Do you see any tournament high-level ZSS spam the move? No. It's primary use is still aggressive, which is honestly what I find over tuned; how rewarded we get for using it, not how punishable it ends up being (I'm sure every ZSS main in here will unequivocally agree).

Honestly ZSS/Diddy/Yoshi/Wario all have some pretty bonkers disadvantaged state mix ups. Someone even brought up recently how he can take monkey flip momentum and wave bounce with an instant cancel on pop-gun (sooo good; easy buffering roll or whatever on landing) or even banana toss which can punish people for trying and otherwise rockets him around (can be amazingly good); Diddy's up-b is a little underrated as well; I'm hoping my diddy is tournament ready ^_^.

 

[A2ZOMG]

He might eventually get a similar Arcfire buff. I say this because right now you can roll into him on reaction when he does Arcfire and still have a major frame advantage punish of your choice.

to me, it would make sense if they noticeably buffed Robin's spells, reduced the uses of some of them (or increased the respawn time, goal being to mitigate matchup specific abuses), and weakened books.

It would actually make Robin's gameplan a lot more intuitive. It's kinda nonsensical that Robin's books are more threatening than his spells lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He does fine vs most of the cast [...]

Whom specifically? I can't see Bowser doing very well against Villager ... or Pac-Man ... or Olimar ... or Duck Hunt ... or Mega Man ... or Mii Gunner ...

I assume bowser does well against all characters that are not top or high.

Whom specifically?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Maybe my own hyperbole has come back to bite me. So let's talk about this a bit.
Flip Jump is great for avoiding a single read (or reacted) overzealous movement for avoidance. It's auto footstool is a significant downer to the move that she can't avoid against any fast jumper for the most part, even on reaction. It heavily limits this move in every fathomable way, people's counter play to this move is widespread in our region and seemingly every region with active ZSS.
It's not definitively better than a jump air dodge is in disadvantaged state; is it broken she has "two" to most characters one? Possibly.
A lot of the time that invincibility won't be what let's her avoid something, but the movement itself. The amount of distance she gains before she loses invincibility isn't particular large either (she does get a large amount of movement throughout the move though).

It may be the best move in the game, I won't deny that (I revel in that actually; Marth's nair in brawl level admiration [was the best move in brawl]). It's very obnoxious on wifi as well (but so is full hop air dodging, something Japan [and shulk players] has showed me they love, especially against ZSS as it beats flip jumping with the same degree of thoughtlessness).

Did the same picture come to mind from the second paragraph as I intended? Sheiks and Marios stalking her movements? (+insert your character here) Her aerials themselves are not good in disadvantaged state either (exempting air dodge uair). But if you're close and really focusing on her landing (all things that go up, must come down) the best she can do is go for a platform or off stage/the ledge; neither of which stops her being in disadvantaged state [but the ledge does give us another flip jump], and if she does come close enough to the ground without using it is down to that singular timing for power shielding the nair or bair or just straight up out prioritizing it (Mario Up Smash, all of sheik's aerials/ground moves, etc etc).

Just about every high tier other than Luigi can really capitalize on poorly used Flip Jumps. Do you see Nairo break disadvantage state with the move? No. Do you see any tournament high-level ZSS spam the move? No. It's primary use is still aggressive, which is honestly what I find over tuned; how rewarded we get for using it, not how punishable it ends up being (I'm sure every ZSS main in here will unequivocally agree).

Honestly ZSS/Diddy/Yoshi/Wario all have some pretty bonkers disadvantaged state mix ups. Someone even brought up recently how he can take monkey flip momentum and wave bounce with an instant cancel on pop-gun (sooo good; easy buffering roll or whatever on landing) or even banana toss which can punish people for trying and otherwise rockets him around (can be amazingly good); Diddy's up-b is a little underrated as well; I'm hoping my diddy is tournament ready ^_^.

I wish Nairo would use flip jump to break those 50/50s that he dies to against ZeRo. I still can't understand why he doesn't do that. ZSS would gain good horizontal distance to an airborne Sheik. Eating needles is much better than dying to the uAir.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik's dthrow uair at the right 'specs' combos properly though, and unlike air dodges, you can't break hit stun and down-b earlier with it.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Sheik's dthrow uair at the right 'specs' combos properly though, and unlike air dodges, you can't break hit stun and down-b earlier with it.

But if the Sheik player reads the airdodge, there is more than enough time to flip jump. It's just a 3d alternative to add to the 50/50, it's not a secure way out. And we're talking about kill percent when it stops comboing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Maybe my own hyperbole has come back to bite me. So let's talk about this a bit.
Flip Jump is great for avoiding a single read (or reacted) overzealous movement for avoidance. It's auto footstool is a significant downer to the move that she can't avoid against any fast jumper for the most part, even on reaction. It heavily limits this move in every fathomable way, people's counter play to this move is widespread in our region and seemingly every region with active ZSS.
It's not definitively better than a jump air dodge is in disadvantaged state; is it broken she has "two" to most characters one? Possibly.
A lot of the time that invincibility won't be what let's her avoid something, but the movement itself. The amount of distance she gains before she loses invincibility isn't particular large either (she does get a large amount of movement throughout the move though).

It may be the best move in the game, I won't deny that (I revel in that actually; Marth's nair in brawl level admiration [was the best move in brawl]). It's very obnoxious on wifi as well (but so is full hop air dodging, something Japan [and shulk players] has showed me they love, especially against ZSS as it beats flip jumping with the same degree of thoughtlessness).

Did the same picture come to mind from the second paragraph as I intended? Sheiks and Marios stalking her movements? (+insert your character here) Her aerials themselves are not good in disadvantaged state either (exempting air dodge uair). But if you're close and really focusing on her landing (all things that go up, must come down) the best she can do is go for a platform or off stage/the ledge; neither of which stops her being in disadvantaged state [but the ledge does give us another flip jump], and if she does come close enough to the ground without using it is down to that singular timing for power shielding the nair or bair or just straight up out prioritizing it (Mario Up Smash, all of sheik's aerials/ground moves, etc etc).

Just about every high tier other than Luigi can really capitalize on poorly used Flip Jumps. Do you see Nairo break disadvantage state with the move? No. Do you see any tournament high-level ZSS spam the move? No. It's primary use is still aggressive, which is honestly what I find over tuned; how rewarded we get for using it, not how punishable it ends up being (I'm sure every ZSS main in here will unequivocally agree).

Honestly ZSS/Diddy/Yoshi/Wario all have some pretty bonkers disadvantaged state mix ups. Someone even brought up recently how he can take monkey flip momentum and wave bounce with an instant cancel on pop-gun (sooo good; easy buffering roll or whatever on landing) or even banana toss which can punish people for trying and otherwise rockets him around (can be amazingly good); Diddy's up-b is a little underrated as well; I'm hoping my diddy is tournament ready ^_^.

I guess this kind of segues into what I meant, I suppose. If the invul isn't even necessary, why would it be there? That's kind of my point, really. How overtuned it is aggressively, however, is something I can ALSO agree with. Move just seems weird in general and in need of tweaking. It can kill surprisingly well and its aggressive options are quite frankly INSANE, I've only tinkered with this character a lil bit though, you've been doing it much longer than I have, I wager.

You never really got back to me on Boost Kick though, it's kind of like a scrubkiller in some areas but what it does to heavies and ROB is almost largely too punishing, I find. I wonder if altering the angle of the last hit so it retains its useful kill power but doesn't top blastzone kill would be a good idea? IDK I'm not on the balance team or else you'd see a bunch of crazy Dr. Mario buffs =P.

I find it hard to say anything else about ZSS is really overtuned or stupidly good. Character is just...well, solid. You could change other things but I think she'll always be good. Her frame data is amazing, her damage output is good, movement speed is good, I find her jump heights to be incredibly optimal for her aerials (really good Short Hop considering how high her full hop is, like wow <3) and I think the tether grab does a great job at making sure her reward is locked behind a feasible risk. I can only think of a handful of chars she shuts down (one of them is Doc because he can NOT deal with flip jump and even removing the invul wouldn't change that, he's just 2slow) but that's unavoidable when you have good chars.

 

[Shaya]

Oh, without invincibility her recovery off stage would a lot worse. Seeing as that invincibility leads straight into a long stage vulnerability by a different style than the typical character, it's a risk for her to use it either way, and in some cases you would be thinking of using the invincibility directly to dodge a close attack, but that to me is not the same as 'ignoring' disadvantage state (no character ignores disadvantaged state). Put off doing something for 10 frames and suddenly you force her into 2 seconds lag unless she immediately lands on a platform.

It took me several months of maining her before I started consistently punishing other ZSS' use of it. It's unfortunately convoluted to deal with, but I tend to measure it's short falls as major and appropriate for what she gets out of proper usage.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh, without invincibility her recovery off stage would be the pits.

I feel like an idiot to have forgotten that. Yeah it would be pretty awful because she'd commit to a Down-B to gain any sort of Horizontal movement and there'd be a pretty obvious IMMEDIATE answer for most of the cast and it would be largely free. Any elongated hitbox, front facing or back facing, and since Flip Jump doesn't ledgesnap immediately either IIRC.....yeah that'd be crap.

I suppose the offensive tuning route would be the most favorable way to approach it, then. Seems like it, anyways.

Character is super fun, glad I decided to mess with her for a bit. She used to feel weird to me but now she feels kind of natural. Maybe I'm just getting into the feel for the game in general better, dunno.

 

[bc1910]

"The pits" is a bit strong. Airdodge > tether ensures her recovery can never be THAT bad. Her tether is massive too.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I'm actually surprised that Diddy hasn't had his Peanut Popgun cancel removed yet.

Was that a thing explicitly mentioned by the developers as being an intentional quirk? Because between that, Monkey Flip, and Banana Peel B-reversing, Diddy can toggle his aerial momentum direction on a whim a total of three times. Some characters barely get one.

Is there a reason why he can't be really good at landing from above the stage when he's completely free if he ends up below it? Taking this away would be like removing ness's ability to do pkt1 edgeguards.

 

[Luco]

Just gonna correct something, @ Luco . "Kirby beats Sheik" was never said by anybody, or at least anybody who knows what they're talking about. The only people who think this are the Kirby mains who only play For Glory (basically everyone except like, 7 Kirbys). Pretty much all top Kirby players think Kirby goes even with Sheik with the buffs he got recently. It was generally conceived to be 55:45 pre-patch in Sheik's favor.

Well, at least when customs are on. Kirby's too exploitable when they're off.

That was my entire point hehe - That people who know what they're talking about would never say something like "kirby beats sheik" or "Bowser beats Ness", it's just that these things get sensationalised to a broader majority.

 

[Tainic]

Whom specifically?

I'm psure Bowser does well against character who can't outspace him/control the stage well nor overwhelm him with speedy assaults, an extreme example would be Jiggs who has a rough time getting past his F/Utilt, Dr Mario, whose speed make his pill arguably worse for spacing purpose, the Miis probably have a hard time as well, same for Kirby who doesnt have a great range on his attacks (Surely not greater than Koopa's.) nor the speed to overwhelm him, et caetera.

Ness can outspace Bowser relatively well so he has a favorable MU against him.

 

[Zelder]

why are we so quick to make comparisons of moves to laser

I'm trying to give @Ffamran an aneurysm, mostly.

 

[Cassio]

3 different points I saw in here to address that relate.

1. ZSS gets roflstomped by pika. She has nothing safe on his shield and has a hard time grabbing him from most of his standard actions, and as previously mentioned her inability to hit the ground with rising aerials and an otherwise weak ground game against short grounded characters. If theres any frame break at all in her combos he can escape, and she has a fairly limited ability to escape him. She can win if he screws up, just like ganon or any other character in smash 4 due to his glass canon attributes.

2. Related, and I know everyone and their mother says this but I knew MK was being heavily underrated from almost the first day of wii u. How did I know? Because he basically has the same strengths on the ground pikachu has but better. Once I started seeing his 0-death nonsense I knew it was only a matter of time. Take two of the strongest design elements from neutral and punish of two top tier characters, make them better, and combine them into one and you have metaknight. Voila

The flaw you could attribute to MK then is that while pika and ZSS may have other strengths and are more well rounded, by comparison MK is linear.

That doesnt make him anymore BS though and Id gladly see him nerfed before ZSS.

3. Further, what does it matter that MK doesnt have attacks safe on ZSS shield when thats not what he relies on to land hits? Thats his weakness against virtually almost every other character (at least good character) in smash 4.

Wrote this kind of quick so it may be sloppy. Might edit later.

 

[David Viran]

3 different points I saw in here to address that relate.

1. ZSS gets roflstomped by pika. She has nothing safe on his shield and has a hard time grabbing him from most of his standard actions, and as previously mentioned her inability to hit the ground with rising aerials and an otherwise weak ground game against short grounded characters.

How come her moves can't be safe exactly? Also as long as you're not point blank with the grab it pretty much always grabs him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm psure Bowser does well against character who can't outspace him/control the stage well nor overwhelm him with speedy assaults, an extreme example would be Jiggs who has a rough time getting past his F/Utilt, Dr Mario, whose speed make his pill arguably worse for spacing purpose, the Miis probably have a hard time as well, same for Kirby who doesnt have a great range on his attacks (Surely not greater than Koopa's.) nor the speed to overwhelm him, et caetera.

Those characters are totally irrelevant though. Even if Bowser had an advantage against them it woudn't be a big deal.

 

[Cassio]

How come her moves can't be safe exactly? Also as long as you're not point blank with the grab it pretty much always grabs him.

1. QA OOS
2. Ducking or anything else that shortens his frame is a general hinderance .

 

[Tainic]

Is Bowser a big deal anyway ?

 

[Shaya]

1. QA OOS
2. Ducking or anything else that shortens his frame is a general hinderance .

17 frames oos isn't that detrimental considering she's usually around negative 10 frames on shielded aerials.
How far does he move each frame?

And even then, ZSS does outrange pika on the ground. Button vs button ZSS can come out on top against just about it all bar up tilt. It's a pretty slow game plan for both of them, you can't hit ZSS' shield with much either because of up-b (pika doesn't fall out reliably).

But yeah, I loved the rest of your post
Unless you meant "maybe 40:60 at worse could be close to even although its harder for ZSS" by the term roflstomped, then I loved all of it~

Also holla, haven't seen you in a while.

 

[Zelder]

Bowser, like Zelda & Mewtwo, are eternally bad in the Smash series.

The sad thing is this is the best Bowser we've ever seen, and he's still mediocre at best. I'd love to see some Bowser love in the next patch(es), but I don't know what that would look like.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It occurs to me that Robin may struggle against anyone with a spammable projectile. Except for Thoron, all of his Thunder spells get eaten and he only has a limited supply. Arcfire is slow as balls.

Against, say, Luigi, where Luigi is playing lame with his fireballs, what can Robin do?

 

[Ghostbone]

To be fair, every bottom 10 character except Samus probably gets shut down by fireballs.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Those characters are totally irrelevant though. Even if Bowser had an advantage against them it woudn't be a big deal.

since none of us is wise on boozer, go to his character board. best bet.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To be fair, every bottom 10 character except Samus probably gets shut down by fireballs.

He was just the first example I thought of. Substitute Mario, Pikachu, Link, or anyone else with a spammable projectile game.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

3 different points I saw in here to address that relate.

1. ZSS gets roflstomped by pika. She has nothing safe on his shield and has a hard time grabbing him from most of his standard actions, and as previously mentioned her inability to hit the ground with rising aerials and an otherwise weak ground game against short grounded characters. If theres any frame break at all in her combos he can escape, and she has a fairly limited ability to escape him. She can win if he screws up, just like ganon or any other character in smash 4 due to his glass canon attributes.

So in review, pikachu roflstomps the common pick for #2 zss, probably goes even with #1 Shiek, doesn't have a single bad matchup at all besides Luigi and maybe Mario (which are both very debatable, IMO,) and solidly beats or wrecks a very large portion of the cast, because even in matchups which he should lose he goes even in or better because QA is broken.

What exactly keeps him from being an obvious #2 or a contender for #1? The fact that he has poor representation because he's harder to play than most top tiers? Pikachu had completely slid under the radar of these balance patches and is way better than he is given credit for, customs or no.

 

[Ghostbone]

He was just the first example I thought of. Substitute Mario, Pikachu, Link, or anyone else with a spammable projectile game.

Mario's fireball is a lot laggier and I'd imagine easier for Robin to deal with.
Same with Pikachu and all of Link's stuff.

What exactly keeps him from being an obvious #2 or a contender for #1?

Because the character is way worse than you think.
lol at being harder to play, that's the worst excuse. A character that's hard to play means they have less options to deal with situations than other top tiers, which makes the character more predictable and less versatile, ie. worse. Pikachu isn't more technically demanding (quick attack cancels are situationally useful and easy enough to learn) than other top tiers.

 

[warionumbah2]

Smash con is starting now, if anyone cares.

2. Related, and I know everyone and their mother says this but I knew MK was being heavily underrated from almost the first day of wii u. How did I know? Because he basically has the same strengths on the ground pikachu has but better. Once I started seeing his 0-death nonsense I knew it was only a matter of time. Take two of the strongest design elements from neutral and punish of two top tier characters, make them better, and combine them into one and you have metaknight. Voila

The flaw you could attribute to MK then is that while pika and ZSS may have other strengths and are more well rounded, by comparison MK is linear.

That doesnt make him anymore BS though and Id gladly see him nerfed before ZSS.

3. Further, what does it matter that MK doesnt have attacks safe on ZSS shield when thats not what he relies on to land hits? Thats his weakness against virtually almost every other character (at least good character) in smash 4.

Brawl PTSD kicking in.

 

[TriTails]

Er. No. Luigi's Fireballs do not shut down any character. It deals no knockback unless you're at ridiculous percents (Doesn't even kill at 999%). The end lag has been toned down so it's no longer 'I mash B and I win neutral'. Although, it can still be fired pretty damn fast with still little commitment.

My point is. People can PS those. While it may seem risky as Luigi can folow up with a grab, the only situation where you will get grabbed is when you think he is going for another Fireball but he instead dash grabs you. The end lag has been increased so this may be harder to peform.

But I absolutely disagree on 'Fireball nerf is a significant nerf' BS people have been saying. It only affects you if what you do per match is just mashing the B button or go for the Fireball -> Grab. If so, well, tough luck. Practice to space those aerials and learn how to do tomahawks. I barely changed my play because of Fireball nerf alone. Fireballs are still hella good.

It occurs to me that Robin may struggle against anyone with a spammable projectile. Except for Thoron, all of his Thunder spells get eaten and he only has a limited supply. Arcfire is slow as balls.

Against, say, Luigi, where Luigi is playing lame with his fireballs, what can Robin do?

Arcthunder and Arcfire explode upon contact with Fireballs. Those can already make Luigi play a bit more honest instead of mashing B in Fireballs' range. I'm not sure if I'm remembering things right but I don't remember invalidating Robins because of my B button alone. Pretty sure SH Arcfire helps.

Ran out of spells? Grab that bulky book and throw it for like 18% and almost unreactable at close range.

 

[Tainic]

Bowser, like Zelda & Mewtwo, are eternally bad in the Smash series.

The sad thing is this is the best Bowser we've ever seen, and he's still mediocre at best. I'd love to see some Bowser love in the next patch(es), but I don't know what that would look like.

It felt to me that the Bowser nerfs were so undeserved and completely neutered one of his biggest assets : Being able to seal a victory with a Side B, which was a large enough compensation for all his flaws.

It occurs to me that Robin may struggle against anyone with a spammable projectile. Except for Thoron, all of his Thunder spells get eaten and he only has a limited supply. Arcfire is slow as balls.

Arcfire blocks weak, non transcendent projectiles such as Fireballs/Thunderjolt so I'd say it's good enough tbh.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

did anybody know that on all bowser's tilts, his arms are untouchable?

 

[Ghostbone]

Er. No. Luigi's Fireballs do not shut down any character. It deals no knockback unless you're at ridiculous percents (Doesn't even kill at 999%). The end lag has been toned down so it's no longer 'I mash B and I win neutral'. Although, it can still be fired pretty damn fast with still little commitment.

Ok let me clarify

Fireball is so hard to deal with for these characters and luigi has overwhelming risk reward by spamming them.

I don't mean he literally presses b and wins. (he presses b then z, duh)

 

[FullMoon]

Arcfire blocks weak, non transcendent projectiles such as Fireballs/Thunderjolt so I'd say it's good enough tbh.

Arcfire itself is going to run out at some point, plus the move takes a while before it actually touches the ground to block projectiles. Fast projectiles can probably sneak before the fire blast. Granted, the only projectiles that I think are very fast in customs off are Water Shuriken, Fox's Blaster and Needles.

The point is that while Robin runs on a limited supply, others don't and can keep spamming to their heart content making him either have to stall until he gets his tomes back or go in. I can't see that being a fun situation to be in.

 

[Tainic]

Yeah what I like to do is alternate between Arcfire and Elthunder during neutral, that way you hardly run out of fuel during neutral, it feels to me that each of his Neutral B have a different purpose and time of use : Thunder is good to poke, Elthunder was specifically made for Spacing and sometimes gimping, Arcthunder is good to extend combos and Thoron is good for killing, I'm pretty sure that mastering Robin's B and Side B is key to his gameplay, especially when it comes to spacing.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Mario's fireball is a lot laggier and I'd imagine easier for Robin to deal with.
Same with Pikachu and all of Link's stuff.


Because the character is way worse than you think.
lol at being harder to play, that's the worst excuse. A character that's hard to play means they have less options to deal with situations than other top tiers, which makes the character more predictable and less versatile, ie. worse. Pikachu isn't more technically demanding (quick attack cancels are situationally useful and easy enough to learn) than other top tiers.

I think you're oversimplifying character difficulty. Technical difficulty is one thing, application is another. A characters kit can be really easy to physically execute yet difficult to apply the best way possible (koopa kid, pikachu.) Certain characters are the opposite, difficult to execute yet with game plans which are easier to understand (someone like mk, Shiek or Fox.)

In any event it's irrelevant to viability and its not like it's just my personal opinion on pikachus spread. These viability threads and most matchup threads seem to have pikachu winning or going even with almost all important top tiers and only losing to a small few overall. Is this not the case?

 

[Luco]

Actually @SolidSense made a brilliant post a while ago about why Pikachu isn't top 5 and the MUs he is shown to have had trouble with. I'm just going to go dig that up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's fireball is a lot laggier and I'd imagine easier for Robin to deal with.
Same with Pikachu and all of Link's stuff.

Mario invalidates the **** out of Robin. Robin literally has no real way to punish Mario camping OR rushing him down, and his recovery is so ridiculously awful that Mario with his extremely terrible low edgeguards actually has an easy time gimping Robin. Even Mac's low recovery doesn't completely fail when his Up-B has a good hitbox, but Robin just dies completely any time he's forced to recover low, and recovering high isn't exactly much better for him either.

Plus Mario's physics are not ideal for getting comboed by Robin's D-throw, so the few times Robin does grab Mario generally don't make up for all the losses. In general, Mario's fireball is worse than Luigi's yes, but he's by far probably one of Robin's worst matchups for other reasons.

I would however argue that the fireball nerf to Luigi alone drops him a tier and basically makes all his matchups universally about 5 points worse at least. It's the difference between having a safe approach option and now not having one.

 

[Luco]

I don't think Pikachu is top 5 or even top 10. His matchup spread is decidedly not amazing. It was perhaps amazing at one point in time, when his ledge hang time was less, but right now he has a lot of matchups that are rocky or "difficult" (if even). He has evens down the line, and matchups in which he outright struggles as well.

Time and time again I have seen high-level Pikachus have trouble with the following characters:



He is slated to win against ZSS, Fox, Rosalina, and Sonic, but as Seagull said, he may not win against Sonic and Fox. Fox gets gimped and Sonic's spindash gets stopped by Tjolt, but these characters have oppressively strong onstage games that extend beyond these binary interactions that Pikachu's landing lag has a difficult time coping with (not to say that they win, though).

ZSS and Rosalina are in a unique boat, where if Pikachu plays quite perfectly (and I mean perfectly; ZSS combos and kills Pikachu at ridiculous percents, like 40, and Pikachu won't be escaping with QA against guaranteed combos), he is their worst matchup. That's quite useful if your goal is to counterpick these characters.

But then you go down the list and you have characters like Ike and Game and Watch that Pikachu randomly has some difficulty with. What other top/high tiers can you think of that struggles with so many mid tiers? The only comparable case is Luigi, who has bad MUs against the likes of Megaman and Pacman. But Luigi makes up for it in spades by being the worst MU for many characters, or among the worst. Which mid/low tier character considers Pikachu their worst MU? (please, don't say Ganondorf or Dedede) But take someone more consistent like Fox for example. Does Fox just get destroyed by anyone below high tier? Absolutely not, there's not a single matchup below the level of Luigi or Falcon that I would say Fox doesn't win. He sweeps the low and mid tiers easily.

Indeed, at this point, some of the high-level Pikachus feel that Pikachu is a counterpick character rather than a viable solo main. @Pikabunz because I respect his Pikachu play (we know ESAM's thoughts already).

Those are my thoughts on Pikachu. I have recently been transitioning to maining other characters and using Pikachu in difficult matchups.

Here it is.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Some of this is debatable for me, I think pikachu does well against more low and mid tiers than its suggesting, and now has a very good chance of going even with Luigi, but otherwise I can accept that.

Ike and game and watch are something to think about as potential pikachu slayers with their buffs.