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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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PK Gaming

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Mario invalidates the **** out of Robin. Robin literally has no real way to punish Mario camping OR rushing him down, and his recovery is so ridiculously awful that Mario with his extremely terrible low edgeguards actually has an easy time gimping Robin. Even Mac's low recovery doesn't completely fail when his Up-B has a good hitbox, but Robin just dies completely any time he's forced to recover low, and recovering high isn't exactly much better for him either.

Plus Mario's physics are not ideal for getting comboed by Robin's D-throw, so the few times Robin does grab Mario generally don't make up for all the losses. In general, Mario's fireball is worse than Luigi's yes, but he's by far probably one of Robin's worst matchups for other reasons.
I disagree on the former. Mario can't really camp Robin with Fireballs, or at the very least, not to the degree that characters like Sheik and Fox can. They're good for getting Robin to approach, preventing him from charging Thunder and mitigating Elthunder, but it's not like the Fireballs shut him down. (Plus they're not really effective on certain stages). That said, Mario definitely beats the ever loving **** out of Robin up close though, so it's a pretty bad, and he's definitely harder than Luigi.

The second paragraph is flat out untrue. Not sure where you got that info when Mario is objectively more vulnerable downthrow than most characters.
 

warionumbah2

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Shulk's great range, and monados, make him him a high tier tbh. Shulk's ready for any situations. Need to recovery? Jump. Want to quickly reach the character? Speed. About to die? Shield. Other opponent about to die? Smash. Need to quickly rack up damage? Buster.
Anyone with above average mobility can time buster,smash and shield out. If Shulk uses Shield at like 110% why should the opponent approach? No point in feeding him rage boys gonna die when it wears off.
 

Luco

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I'm not sure. Being around Berserker on a daily basis (online) really does give me hope. Speed shulk is safe enough if he both forces you to sheild and crosses up on you, but otherwise is kinda overhyped as "the tool he needs to be good". Frame data is one of the most important things that defines viability in this game, but that doesn't stop Ike's Fair and Nair being monsters, for instance. The thing that kills Shulk in footsies is a lack of aerial deceleration (and unlike Ryu, does not have quick ways to change direction outside of DJ or have particularly safe aerials), something that jump art greatly aids with. Buster, whilst incurring more hitstun for you as the attacker, also incurs more lag on the receivers part. Certain moves are actually significantly safer with buster shulk than any other shulk. Jump shulk also makes following up in the advantaged state a lot more possible.

Shulk mains that try to abuse their AC frames alone won't get very far, but exceptional mains like the obvious one (Trela) have shown that he can kinda do things. Not ready to write this character off yet as bottom 5 or even 10. I think it's (sadly) very possible that he's doomed to the even worse fate of being solid mid tier, where buffs are just that little extra unlikely to reach him because they probably already think they have worked on him enough.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I'm not sure. Being around Berserker on a daily basis (online) really does give me hope. Speed shulk is safe enough if he both forces you to sheild and crosses up on you, but otherwise is kinda overhyped as "the tool he needs to be good". Frame data is one of the most important things that defines viability in this game, but that doesn't stop Ike's Fair and Nair being monsters, for instance. The thing that kills Shulk in footsies is a lack of aerial deceleration (and unlike Ryu, does not have quick ways to change direction outside of DJ or have particularly safe aerials), something that jump art greatly aids with. Buster, whilst incurring more hitstun for you as the attacker, also incurs more lag on the receivers part. Certain moves are actually significantly safer with buster shulk than any other shulk. Jump shulk also makes following up in the advantaged state a lot more possible.

Shulk mains that try to abuse their AC frames alone won't get very far, but exceptional mains like the obvious one (Trela) have shown that he can kinda do things. Not ready to write this character off yet as bottom 5 or even 10. I think it's (sadly) very possible that he's doomed to the even worse fate of being solid mid tier, where buffs are just that little extra unlikely to reach him because they probably already think they have worked on him enough.
When's the last time you've seen trela play shulk? Is his rep so poor that you gotta cling onto his matches? Has another shulk not stepped up since?

Ike's fair and nair are faster than shulk's aerials despite being slow themselves
 
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TriTails

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I would however argue that the fireball nerf to Luigi alone drops him a tier and basically makes all his matchups universally about 5 points worse at least. It's the difference between having a safe approach option and now not having one.
No. Why do people keep saying that.

Fireballs never made Luigi's approaches safe to begin with. The whole point of doing it is to cover your approaches.

And besides, there are still characters who are forced to approach against Luigi. And for those who forces Luigi to approach (Unless it's a charge-type move), you're pretty much don't need to use the Fireballs as much.

People act like Luigi's Fireballs are so nerfed they disappeared right from the slot, just like that. 3 frames may seem huge for those who thrives on Fireball Grab but if you're playing this character right you shouldn't even be doing that or at least make some mixups (Dash shieldgrab).
 

Luco

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When's the last time you've seen trela play shulk? Is his rep so poor that you gotta cling onto his matches? Has another shulk not stepped up since?

Ike's fair and nair are faster than shulk's aerials despite being slow themselves
I mean Trela used Shulk as recently as CEO and got 17th, which is respectable. Do consider that most characters in mid tier didn't make it to top 32 at all and don't generally have the chance to get to those kinds of placings. And yes I will cling on to his placings, seeing as he's getting notable rep from him. You're making it sound like "oh you're taking the easy way out" when in actuality it's the key piece of evidence. I'm sure any Shulk main could probably tell you more about his results, except I'm not sure if any of them post here anymore except for @Plain Yogurt

Also do you have Ike's frame data on hand, because I couldn't find it? Shulk's Fair comes out on F 14 though, I figure Ike's can't be that much faster if at all (or has the relevant hitboxes out by that point, considering Shulk swings his monado down quite fast after he starts the attack itself).

I know you think he's trash but I don't agree. :p
 

san.

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I mean Trela used Shulk as recently as CEO and got 17th, which is respectable. Do consider that most characters in mid tier didn't make it to top 32 at all and don't generally have the chance to get to those kinds of placings. And yes I will cling on to his placings, seeing as he's getting notable rep from him. You're making it sound like "oh you're taking the easy way out" when in actuality it's the key piece of evidence. I'm sure any Shulk main could probably tell you more about his results, except I'm not sure if any of them post here anymore except for @Plain Yogurt

Also do you have Ike's frame data on hand, because I couldn't find it? Shulk's Fair comes out on F 14 though, I figure Ike's can't be that much faster if at all (or has the relevant hitboxes out by that point, considering Shulk swings his monado down quite fast after he starts the attack itself).

I know you think he's trash but I don't agree. :p
Ike's fair is frame 11-12 (should be 11 imo), uair is 13 but lasts for like 16 frames, nair is 12 but lasts for ~16 as well, bair is frame 7-9. Dair is frame 16. They all are quite strong.

On the ground, Ike has a 4 frame jab, 7 frame dtilt, 13 frame ftilt, 11 frame utilt.
 
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-RedX-

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I think Ike's average landing lag is better than Shulk's as well. Shulk does have that Monando Cancel which is pretty cool but I'm not sure if it's done often.
 

Luco

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Geez guys, not trying to start a "who's better" war here (is it even a question?), I just wanted to say they're like, somewhat comparable.

I need to sleep, but if peeps want to continue this discussion that's cool with me.
 

Mario766

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Shulk's frame data and kill options pale compared to Ike, even with smash art out. Shulk also has noticably worse tilts and jab, his dash attack is now slower than Ike's because of the massive buff to Ike's, now it kills earlier also.

I honestly don't see any real reason to play Shulk unless you do a lot with artes vs playing Ike.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I mean Trela used Shulk as recently as CEO and got 17th, which is respectable. Do consider that most characters in mid tier didn't make it to top 32 at all and don't generally have the chance to get to those kinds of placings. And yes I will cling on to his placings, seeing as he's getting notable rep from him. You're making it sound like "oh you're taking the easy way out" when in actuality it's the key piece of evidence. I'm sure any Shulk main could probably tell you more about his results, except I'm not sure if any of them post here anymore except for @Plain Yogurt

Also do you have Ike's frame data on hand, because I couldn't find it? Shulk's Fair comes out on F 14 though, I figure Ike's can't be that much faster if at all (or has the relevant hitboxes out by that point, considering Shulk swings his monado down quite fast after he starts the attack itself).

I know you think he's trash but I don't agree. :p
Yeah I use kuroganehammer.com for the frame data stuff. They don't have every characters frame dara unfortunately. I really wish their was an app for framedata.

Not to be a stickler but I didn't see him play shulk at CEO. I know he was listed as shulk but that doesn't tell me usage or if he even won a set with him.
 
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Ffamran

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I don't know who Trela's using anymore. He's been using Charizard, Shulk, Mewtwo, Mii Sword Fighter, and Ryu and of all those characters, only MSF and Ryu look good. Why? Because Trela devoted a lot of time to MSF and Ryu's a legitimately good character. Trela's like Keitaro, Nakat, Nairo, Ally, and Rice where they can use multiple characters at a high level. I'm not Trela; I never met him, so I can't say what's on his or anyone's mind, but Trela might be in a main crisis, but not as severe as Keitaro and Nakat went through where you could see how far they dropped skill-wise. Issue with Trela is he might be going through a second one: one before he found MSF and one after Ryu was released. Right now, Trela's the MSF and Ryu player, but he's known for different characters and cited for their success when there are different players better with those characters since Trela doesn't use them much anymore.

If you want Shulk players, there's only two I know that you can watch regularly: Soronie and CrispyTacoz. Soronie's a sword user main; she plays Link, Shulk, and had Roy. I think the commentators said she was a PM Link main. Regardless, she's someone to watch if you want Link and Shulk. CrispyTacoz is a Luigi main with a Shulk. Why Shulk? I have no idea. It's like that one Greninja player in CA who has a Falco and his Falco is bad. He'll do fine with his Greninja and then switch to Falco. It was like that one time where that Greninja player on Tourney Locator's stream switched to Meta Knight and basically spammed Shuttle Loop and cost a game during doubles, but when he switched back to Greninja it was like going from worse than a typical For Glory player to a legitimately good player. Anyway, I digress. CrispyTacoz is still a good Shulk player, but his Luigi is miles ahead. It's more like a "fun character" for him to use in pools or against players that aren't Trevonte, Arikie, Andy_Sauro, etc.

The other Shulk players? You're gonna have to ask the Shulk boards. I remember a Shulk player who shows up on Xanadu streams, but he's okay. Nothing special like how Soronie has really good spacing with Link and Shulk or CrispyTacoz who just has a fun pocket Shulk. Oh, and I was disappointed there wasn't a Link of Soronie's caliber on stream at EVO. Was there a decent Link at EVO? Probably, but not on stream.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I don't know who Trela's using anymore. He's been using Charizard, Shulk, Mewtwo, Mii Sword Fighter, and Ryu and of all those characters, only MSF and Ryu look good. Why? Because Trela devoted a lot of time to MSF and Ryu's a legitimately good character. Trela's like Keitaro, Nakat, Nairo, Ally, and Rice where they can use multiple characters at a high level. I'm not Trela; I never met him, so I can't say what's on his or anyone's mind, but Trela might be in a main crisis, but not as severe as Keitaro and Nakat went through where you could see how far they dropped skill-wise. Issue with Trela is he might be going through a second one: one before he found MSF and one after Ryu was released. Right now, Trela's the MSF and Ryu player, but he's known for different characters and cited for their success when there are different players better with those characters since Trela doesn't use them much anymore.

If you want Shulk players, there's only two I know that you can watch regularly: Soronie and CrispyTacoz. Soronie's a sword user main; she plays Link, Shulk, and had Roy. I think the commentators said she was a PM Link main. Regardless, she's someone to watch if you want Link and Shulk. CrispyTacoz is a Luigi main with a Shulk. Why Shulk? I have no idea. It's like that one Greninja player in CA who has a Falco and his Falco is bad. He'll do fine with his Greninja and then switch to Falco. It was like that one time where that Greninja player on Tourney Locator's stream switched to Meta Knight and basically spammed Shuttle Loop and cost a game during doubles, but when he switched back to Greninja it was like going from worse than a typical For Glory player to a legitimately good player. Anyway, I digress. CrispyTacoz is still a good Shulk player, but his Luigi is miles ahead. It's more like a "fun character" for him to use in pools or against players that aren't Trevonte, Arikie, Andy_Sauro, etc.

The other Shulk players? You're gonna have to ask the Shulk boards. I remember a Shulk player who shows up on Xanadu streams, but he's okay. Nothing special like how Soronie has really good spacing with Link and Shulk or CrispyTacoz who just has a fun pocket Shulk. Oh, and I was disappointed there wasn't a Link of Soronie's caliber on stream at EVO. Was there a decent Link at EVO? Probably, but not on stream.
I don't know who soronie is but I'll check em out. Exposure is important it's hard for us to base any type of opinion on character usage just on results a lone. For instance if trela used shulk at ceo and list every time he used him is that 17th with Shulk impressive? I need more context before I go off of that alone.

John numbers dropped him a long tjme again and basically said screw that baf character @ Ikes Ikes .

Edit: I lied I've seen soronie play b4 didn't know she used shulk. Saw her playing roy b4
 
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⑨ball

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I don't know who Trela's using anymore. He's been using Charizard, Shulk, Mewtwo, Mii Sword Fighter, and Ryu and of all those characters, only MSF and Ryu look good. Why? Because Trela devoted a lot of time to MSF and Ryu's a legitimately good character.
Don't want to venture too far off the topic of Shulk (since he's really interesting being in this weird Little Mac-esque spot where everyone see potential but can't quite see it over coming his weaknesses), but MSF might be legitimately good too. Dair is fantastic and having far reaching disjoints and decent ground speed is never a bad thing. On top of having a really nice grab and throw game I wouldn't be surprised if people started putting her above characters like Link.

Back on to Shulk have we had any players do one of those viability MU spreads that were popular about 4-5 pages ago? That'd explain a lot about what type of issues are actually holding him back.
 

ZcK

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Unfortunately, that's the Shulk trap that gets a lot of people. His edgeguarding is rather mediocre even while in jump. Especially when compared to other characters. The main problem with his ability to edgeguard would be the speed of his moves. So depending on how he jumps at you it's obvious what he's going to do. I don't believe that his edgeguard is very good because of this. He's no sheik. He's probably one of the worst edgeguarders in the game. Also his ledge trump game is practically non existent. So he loses out on options that almost every character has and mix ups.

His combo game is mediocre and only really works at liw percentages. No kill confirms that I'm aware. Dthrow to fair eorks from like O-20 right? Seems lije everything shulk has according to you is no joke.

But being in a certain art itself is a problem. If you're in smash the combos you listed no longer work. If you're in buster some moves are unsafe on hit. Then it's the simple fact that when you're using a certain art you lose access to another art. Which can be good in certain situations. However, situational moves are just that situational.

Vanilla shulk sucks. Mid tier? Hell no. He's actually worse than palutena in vanilla and maybe worse than Zelda. Poor mobility poor frame data unsafe and laggy moves. Cmon people
His edge guarding is pretty decent he can go really deep and is not like his moves are so slow that you can do anything before he hits you and he is not going to be in your very face when edgeguarding when he has range so attacking him sometimes is not much of an option so AD is often good when he doesnt chase you to the depths of hell.

And 3 of his aerials hit in front of him so really is not obvious what attack he is going to use. And his ledge trump can use some reverse air slash (frame 10) but yeah aside from that theres nothing else.

No easy kill confirms that i know of but anyway not many characters have very reliable or easy kill confirms anyway, he have some for example in buster N-air> cancel buster > Side smash or up-air first hit (works better with buster)> Monado Art landing lag cancel> Up smash. Im not sure of the percentages but they combo. And about his combos theres nothing on sheik level but n-air to jab, tilt, smash, grab works at various times.

Smash is stupid and shulk should never use it in neutral, unless you like not being combo`ed at low percents, also almost nothing combo(es?) with smash and everything but grab is unsafe on shield. Its more appropiately used only with grabs and when edgeguarding. Buster makes safe on shield almost everything but yeah sometimes his attacks may be unsafe on hit but only at low percents, at higher percents his attacks on buster combo pretty well also shulk is not using buster himself until being around 50 when most of the cast combos stop working.

He in vanilla or anything is actually worse than them if you are in his face, otherwise he can be good.

Also shulk deacceleration improves with speed and jump and when activating an art if you hold the other direction he faces he changes direction, aside from that is horrendous.
 
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RayNoire

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I don't think Shulk is very good, and I'm also glad Shulk isn't very good. He's way too swingy: Vision is basically "one of us is dying at 60%" and Buster and Smash Arts are similarly fraught with peril on both sides. He's like a walking walkoff.
 

Tainic

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Back on to Shulk have we had any players do one of those viability MU spreads that were popular about 4-5 pages ago? That'd explain a lot about what type of issues are actually holding him back.
I'm no Shulk main and just play him fairly often for **** and giggles but I'd say something like this, take it with a grain (Or rather, a full bucket.) of salt, of course :
:4shulk:
-2 : :4sheik::4pikachu::4zss: > Shulk really struggles against the Big 3, they can all keep up with Speed Monado thanks to their natural speed and Quick Attack/Bouncing Fish/Flip Jump allowing them to remain mobile, their framedata allow them to overwhelm Shulk, making him very had for him to retaliate, besides, they all got fairly good projectiles (And even a disjoing in ZSS' case.) so they will never be forced to approach and challenge his Monado range. Their originally weak-ish moves become more powerful if he dares to Buster, which isnt a really good idea since he can't trade well with them at all. Defense makes him even more combo food and he struggles even more with their projectiles because he becomes soooo slow. Smash Monado allows Shulk to kill them crazy early, the problem remains that their mobility allow them to stall during the entire Art duration and, additionally, makes killing Shulk a breeze if he is at high-ish percentage, something they should struggle with. Jump remains ok but their fast and versatile recovery
makes it reaaaaally hard to edgeguard properly. All in all these matchups are terrible for him : His range gets neutered by their projectiles, his Arts all have big drawbacks, he can't trade well with them nor catch them that easily, he can't edgeguard them. However, he still got a long sword and he might be able to defend himself with very careful positionning, but man these 3 MUs are friggin hard.

-1 : :4falcon::4diddy::4fox::4pacman::4villager::4megaman::4tlink: > Falcon is a pain for Shulk : He is fast, he can trade better, his Utilt/Dair forces Shulk to be very careful with his recovery, he can't keep up without Speed Monado and Buster is reaaaaally risky against the Cap, while Defense is just asking to get grabbed and kneed/uaired for days. He has trouble getting past Diddy as well, who controls the stage very well and can bait Shulk into making a wrong move really easily, I really dunno the words to put it. Fox is just so hit & runny, Shulk absolutely needs his Speed Monado to be able to approach and punish reliably. Without Speed Monado, he really has a ****ing hard time getting through the Toon Link/Pacman/Villager/Megaman club, who can just abuse his otherwise mediocre speed/light weight provided by Jump Monado to keep him away with their vast array of projectiles.

0 : :4bowserjr::4darkpit::4pit::rosalina::4feroy::4ness::4lucas::4sonic::4metaknight::4mario::4luigi::4wario2::4yoshi::4greninja::4myfriends::4olimar::4link:> He does not seem to have an overwhelming advantage or disadvantage against them, he can trade with most of them in an ok way or space correctly against them, and can use most of his Monado Arts against them without giving his opponent any major advantage. (Greninja is debatable, he might be a -1.)

+1 : :4dk::4bowser::4charizard::4marth::4lucina::4ryu::4peach::4robinm::4miibrawl::4kirby::4littlemac::4lucario::4duckhunt::4falco::4miisword::4wiifit::4rob:> Can abuse his range, or his Arts against them fairly well, giving him an edge.

+2 : :4ganondorf::4gaw::4jigglypuff::4drmario::4palutena::4samus::4dedede::4mewtwo::4zelda::4miigun: > Overwhelmed by most of Shulk's toolkit, be it his range, the burst mobility provided by Speed, they have a hard(er for DDD/Ganon/Mewtwo) time killing him thanks to Defense and Jump, and since they cannot abuse Defense's drawbacks as easily as the speedier characters, it makes this Art a real pain for most of them. They can't trade well with him, either because their frame data is even worse than Shulk's, or because their range/speed isnt enough to put him in a hard position.


Just an attempt, as I said at the beginning of my post, take everything with a grain of salt.
 

A2ZOMG

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I disagree on the former. Mario can't really camp Robin with Fireballs, or at the very least, not to the degree that characters like Sheik and Fox can. They're good for getting Robin to approach, preventing him from charging Thunder and mitigating Elthunder, but it's not like the Fireballs shut him down. (Plus they're not really effective on certain stages). That said, Mario definitely beats the ever loving **** out of Robin up close though, so it's a pretty bad, and he's definitely harder than Luigi.

The second paragraph is flat out untrue. Not sure where you got that info when Mario is objectively more vulnerable downthrow than most characters.
Robin doesn't get D-throw -> aerial on Mario on Robin for free like he does against say obviously Fox and Sheik when Mario can usually avoid it except at extremely narrow percent ranges because he's too heavy and floaty for Robin to get that level of frame advantage, and unlike most super heavies Mario also benefits from high air mobility to drift out of a lot of traps at higher percents. FINALLY, at low percents Mario can literally just Up-B out Robins D-throw and even potentially punish him on hit before he can block. So uh...yeah. Robin's D-throw is kinda meh on Mario.
 

Blobface

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Ganon has plenty of range to deal with Shulk (particularly with Dash Attack), and Ganon's frame data is near equal or better than Shulk in every area except Jab. I'd honestly put it in Ganon's favor, but Shulk's counter can murder Ganon if he blunders into it, and Ganon can punish failed counters equally hard, making it effectively even.

Also, shield Shulk is awful against Ganon. Due to U-throw putting people high in the air almost regardless of weight, Ganon can just U-throw him, shield, and wait for him to land. Then U-throw again.
 
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Ikes

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real talk: how consequential are middling/poorish low tier matchups when almost no one plays that character and that character will almost never show up in tournament?

hypothetical cause im starting to shy away from this notion, but say that bowser actually did beat ness: he still has terrible matchups against a lot of other characters so chances are the matchup will never matter in a tournament environment since no one will use bowser.
 

Baby_Sneak

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real talk: how consequential are middling/poorish low tier matchups when almost no one plays that character and that character will almost never show up in tournament?

hypothetical cause im starting to shy away from this notion, but say that bowser actually did beat ness: he still has terrible matchups against a lot of other characters so chances are the matchup will never matter in a tournament environment since no one will use bowser.
It'll DEFINITLY show up sometime in the game's life as players dissect and analyze all their MUs.
 

ZcK

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kirby wins the MU just cause he gets monandos.

like how did you overlook that, dude?
How does he win?

I ll guess though because buster maybe, this particular matchup can be played like shulk dittos are in a way that both of them have to counter each other arts (Shield>Buster, Buster>Jump, etc.). And getting the monado does not invalidate shulk but it indeed makes his job harder. And when both have the arts shulk still has superior air and ground mobility, and kirby range does not help either but I have not played much this match up so I wont comment further on things I could be wrong.


Ganon has plenty of range to deal with Shulk, and Ganon overall has better frame data than Shulk. I'd honestly put it in Ganon's favor, but Shulk's counter can murder Ganon if he blunders into it, and Ganon can punish failed counters equally hard, making it effectively even.

Also, shield Shulk is awful against Ganon. Due to U-throw putting people high in the air almost regardless of weight, Ganon can just U-throw him, shield, and wait for him to land.

Edit: reserving space to link to something.
Counter doesnt play any mayor paper in the match-up unless the ganon player acts very predictable.
Both have to play very pacient, if ganon goes offstage he can be f-aired to oblivion if shulk does, his predictable recovery and problems landing may get him punished to hell.
Also I do think shield is not as helpful here because ganon murders you anyway.
Again dont have many MU experience to construct on this but i dont think it favors any side
 
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Blobface

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real talk: how consequential are middling/poorish low tier matchups when almost no one plays that character and that character will almost never show up in tournament?

hypothetical cause im starting to shy away from this notion, but say that bowser actually did beat ness: he still has terrible matchups against a lot of other characters so chances are the matchup will never matter in a tournament environment since no one will use bowser.
Really depends honestly. If it's a middling disadvantage (-1) it won't be an issue. Nobody is going to bother keeping a pocket Bowser just to have a slight edge against Ness mains. If it's a massive advantage (-4), you should probably be worried, since anyone with solid fundamentals and an idea of how a Heavy plays could keep a pocket Bowser pretty easy. If it's a character with a really high barrier of entry (Idunno, Greninja? Pacman?) it's probably not a big deal though.
 

Antonykun

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Don't want to venture too far off the topic of Shulk (since he's really interesting being in this weird Little Mac-esque spot where everyone see potential but can't quite see it over coming his weaknesses), but MSF might be legitimately good too. Dair is fantastic and having far reaching disjoints and decent ground speed is never a bad thing. On top of having a really nice grab and throw game I wouldn't be surprised if people started putting her above characters like Link.

Back on to Shulk have we had any players do one of those viability MU spreads that were popular about 4-5 pages ago? That'd explain a lot about what type of issues are actually holding him back.
Imma just say that Swordfighter's Throw game becomes worse Marcina bad around 50% when he can't combo Down throw into anything and lacks a kill thow but his grab game is really good tho
 

Blobface

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Imma just say that Swordfighter's Throw game becomes worse Marcina bad around 50% when he can't combo Down throw into anything and lacks a kill thow but his grab game is really good tho
I thought Swordfighter had at least one confirm into U-air. Am I thinking of D-tilt?

Which reminds me, since we brought up this earlier but I didn't remember it at the time; If balancing was done exclusively for For Glory/Online play, Swordfighter (and Mii Brawler to a lesser extent), would not have received the changes they did.
 

HeavyLobster

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I've got plenty of Shulk MU experience, though perhaps not at the level where Shulks can MALLC consistently or anything like that. Shulk-Ganon is even and pretty volatile as both characters are fairly laggy and punishable in neutral, but can punish each other stupidly hard while in advantage. Counter mindgames do tend to figure prominently in the matches I've played, though the fact that Ganon's DSmash is now a threatening kill move that can be used without instantly dying should the weak hitbox be countered is helpful for Ganon, though probably not enough to give him a decisive advantage. Shulk can combo Dorf for days and gimping isn't too hard either, but Shulk's moves are even laggier than Ganon's, and Ganon punishes him brutally for this. Shulk can't really land himself outside of counter mindgames, which can be played around to an extent thanks to Flame Choke, and of course if Ganon baits a counter you die. I actually think Ganon slightly wins neutral except vs. Speed, which is probably Shulk's best art in the MU. Jump and Buster also have their niches, though Buster's best saved for mid %s as at low %s it can be somewhat punishable on hit. Smash is rarely worth it given Ganon's high kill potential, and Shield doesn't really do anything here. Shulk is gimpable, but has better tools than Ganon overall to avoid edgeguards here, and arguably Shulk has the better reward because of this. Really it just comes down to who plays better and makes the better reads.
 
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Antonykun

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I thought Swordfighter had at least one confirm into U-air. Am I thinking of D-tilt?

Which reminds me, since we brought up this earlier but I didn't remember it at the time; If balancing was done exclusively for For Glory/Online play, Swordfighter (and Mii Brawler to a lesser extent), would not have received the changes they did.
no confirms into the all mighty up air I'm afraid you can kinda put the enemy in the air with up throw but thats it
 

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I'm tempted to say Greninja might beat Shulk now (I thought it was even before) just because shurikens win neutral for Greninja and Shulk is basically limited to Jump and Speed since any other art (especially Shield) can get him camped pretty hard by shurikens, even more considering Greninja's mobility makes it very easy for him to avoid Shulk when he's in Buster or Smash.

Plus Greninja wrecks Air Slash so if Shulk finds himself offstage without Jump art he's kinda dead.
 

ILOVESMASH

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Imma just say that Swordfighter's Throw game becomes worse Marcina bad around 50% when he can't combo Down throw into anything and lacks a kill thow but his grab game is really good tho
How does his throw game become worse than Marcina's at mid percents? I'm pretty sure he can still get up Air followups from Down throw if he reads the Airdodge.

Speaking of Mii swordfighter, I'm surprised no one here ever mentions his insane jab. His jab1 is a lot like prepatch link's since it can combo into itself (sorta) and many of Mii sword Fighter's moves. I think this move alone pushes him out of low tier
 

PK Gaming

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Re: Tainic's Shulk matchups

I don't think he has that many +2, and he certainly doesn't go even with most (if not all) of the tournament staples you've listed (in fact, it feels like Ness, Mario and Luigi would be bad for him). I don't even think he beats Robin, which is a testament to how poor his matchups are.

Robin doesn't get D-throw -> aerial on Mario on Robin for free like he does against say obviously Fox and Sheik when Mario can usually avoid it except at extremely narrow percent ranges because he's too heavy and floaty for Robin to get that level of frame advantage, and unlike most super heavies Mario also benefits from high air mobility to drift out of a lot of traps at higher percents. FINALLY, at low percents Mario can literally just Up-B out Robins D-throw and even potentially punish him on hit before he can block. So uh...yeah. Robin's D-throw is kinda meh on Mario.
Hmm

I was just going off what was posted on the Robin boards, but I guess it's wrong. I'll take your word for it.
 
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Vipermoon

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Hmm

I was just going off what was posted on the Robin boards, but I guess it's wrong. I'll take your word for it.
I believe it. Robin may have had reduced Dthrow lag but there's still a decent amount. On top of that his jumpsquat is 7 frames (like wtf) and his Uair comes out slowish.
 

PK Gaming

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Well at early % you're not going to be able to Uair anyway. The idea is that there are certain % ranges where jab and utilt followups are guaranteed. At later % you can force a mixup with the down throw and follow up with either an aerial or a upsmash if you read them, but it looks like Mario isn't susceptible to that sort of thing. Pity.
 
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