Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

Some of this is debatable for me, I think pikachu does well against more low and mid tiers than its suggesting, and now has a very good chance of going even with Luigi, but otherwise I can accept that.

Ike and game and watch are something to think about as pikachu slayers with their buffs.

People keep saying G&W got buffs, but where?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Bowser, like Zelda & Mewtwo, are eternally bad in the Smash series.

The sad thing is this is the best Bowser we've ever seen, and he's still mediocre at best. I'd love to see some Bowser love in the next patch(es), but I don't know what that would look like.

Bowser's overall design in this game is a lot better than it was in the previous two games. Making him significantly faster and giving him the "Tough Guy" mechanic were good choices but he still seems to suffer from a lot of the same problems he's always had. He kills even earlier now but his kill moves are not all that reliable. He can moved around faster but he still easily gets juggled and can get walled out. I think a big game changer for Bowser would be less landing lag on his aerials. Take his dair and Bowser Bomb, for example. Huge hit box when he lands and both do a ton of shield damage but it's not too hard to run in and counter them. Imagine if it was easier to recover from these. Both moves would be a lot more intimidating and practical. To balance it, perhaps they could make it like a lot of other fast falling dairs and have it have less ending lag the higher in the air it's done at. This would give Bowser a way to quickly get back to the stage and help diminish one of his bigger weaknesses of being a sitting duck in the air.

I also think the Tough Guy mechanic should be improved upon because I think it's a fantastic idea that would be a brilliant balancing mechanic for heavier characters if implemented right. In my personal opinion, Ganondorf and Dedede should have it too and it would help with some of their problems with projectiles. Someone call me out on blasphemy if I suggest something incredibly stupid here but would a 5% threshold be too much at lower percentages? I admit I don't know the nitty gritty of the Tough Guy mechanic so I don't know what the exact threshold is and only know that he basically "ignores" weaker attacks at lower percentages, even if they have high stun like Megaman's Magic Lemons ®. Him, Dedede, and Ganon would strongly benefit from this because they already have far reaching jabs and tilts to bat away campers once they got close.

Suppose Bowser were to get an ideal buff dump, I would say it would be:

-Less landing lag on fair, bair, dair, and the Bowser Bomb.
-Flying slam, dsmash, and usmash kill even earlier.
-Higher threshold for Tough Guy to stop working.
-Maybe convert uthrow/dthrow into a combo grab?

 

[Cassio]

Here it is.

The problem with this post is that it assumes lower tiered characters are capable of matching pika toe to toe. As Ive explained before, pikachu simply has more options then a lot of other cast members that allow him to go deeper while others hit a wall.

So in review, pikachu roflstomps the common pick for #2 zss, probably goes even with #1 Shiek, doesn't have a single bad matchup at all besides Luigi and maybe Mario (which are both very debatable, IMO,) and solidly beats or wrecks a very large portion of the cast, because even in matchups which he should lose he goes even in or better because QA is broken.

What exactly keeps him from being an obvious #2 or a contender for #1? The fact that he has poor representation because he's harder to play than most top tiers? Pikachu had completely slid under the radar of these balance patches and is way better than he is given credit for, customs or no.

I think this isnt really that important. Like I get that this is the viability discussion thread and placing characters in order one after the other is entertaining; but realistically the massive amount of uncertainty that exists in such specific rankings even within one tier would make me smh at anyone that takes too seriously their perception of an ordered tier. Speculation is cool but if we actually care about accuracy then we have to be comfortable with uncertainty.

In the most pragmatic sense Im content that pikachu is a viable character and am wary/on the look out for which MUs are likely to be his hardest, regardless of if hes the best or 10th best.

I think right now its something like
A+: Sheik
A: 6-12 other characters

With sheik being A+ mostly for her consistency/generally better MU spread moreso then her domination of the cast.

17 frames oos isn't that detrimental considering she's usually around negative 10 frames on shielded aerials.
How far does he move each frame?

And even then, ZSS does outrange pika on the ground. Button vs button ZSS can come out on top against just about it all bar up tilt. It's a pretty slow game plan for both of them, you can't hit ZSS' shield with much either because of up-b (pika doesn't fall out reliably).

But yeah, I loved the rest of your post
Unless you meant "maybe 40:60 at worse could be close to even although its harder for ZSS" by the term roflstomped, then I loved all of it~

Also holla, haven't seen you in a while.

QA Start-up is 14 frames and it moves for 5 (I believe evenly spaced) frames
[14]----(15)----(16)----(17)----(18)----(19)
with [] being the only part without a hitbox

I think its probably 60:40, when youre a good character you tend to be able to just do other things to make up for weaknesses even if its harder.

And thank you, yeah any spare time Ive had for smash has been spent ensuring the SoCal FB page mid-level players dont cannibalize the new players. I think Im finally close to handing it off though.

Brawl PTSD kicking in.

Im honestly impressed with how consistent MK players drastically underrate their character. Like I could understand not believing hes near the top but the conviction that hes mediocre by virtually all MK players makes me feel like Im part of an elaborate troll.

 

[Tainic]

Suppose Bowser were to get an ideal buff dump, I would say it would be:

-Less landing lag on fair, bair, dair, and the Bowser Bomb.
-Flying slam, dsmash, and usmash kill even earlier.
-Higher threshold for Tough Guy to stop working.
-Maybe covert uthrow/dthrow into a combo grab?

I'd buff mostly his aerials tbh, as it is, his only good aerial il Fair, a good spacing and edgeguarding tool, but his other ones are really meh tbh : Nair's hitbox is ****ing janky, I'd love it if it had the Falco Nair treatment : Less damages but a better hitbox. BAir's active frames are ridiculous, they really should think about giving it a sourspot to make it somewhat useful, because it really isnt useful at all except for really hard punishes, especially given that the hitbox is deceptively small. Uair idk how to change it, the thing is its good enough as it is, but while Zard, who has almost exactly the same Uair, has a good way to setup one with his Dthrow/Utilt, Bowser has next to no occasion to pull off an upair unless the character is extremely easy to juggle. Dair seems ok as it is tbh, it's kinda like Toon Link's, if you manage to pull it once, it adds a tremendous amount of mental pressure to your opponent, who will know that you aren't afraid to use it, but really it's an aerial you need to use with the utmost care.

 

[Makorel]

But then you go down the list and you have characters like Ike and Game and Watch that Pikachu randomly has some difficulty with.

Ike's bad for Pikachu eh? Is the combination of range and power just too much? Are his moves strong enough to go through tjolt and punish it point blank? Now there's something I would like to see more of; stronger moves beating out smaller ones instead of clanking and leaving the faster character at an advantage.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

When did we become the "let's balance super smash brothers" thread?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Give too much Tough Guy threshold to Bowser, and he'd be Sheik's and MK's worst nightmare. Pikachu's QA shenanigans would be less ideal for direct offense, Luigi and Mario Fireballs would mean bugger all, and Wario would struggle....



Let's buff Tough Guy threshold.

 

[Tainic]

A few pages ago.

I guess its ok since you can't really talk about "why that character is good/bad" without mentionning what would be necessary to tone it up/down.

 

[Antonykun]

When did we become the "let's balance super smash brothers" thread?

before the thread changed from the old one.
@ Shaya should really work on those death punishments

anywho's I'm convinced D-air into footstool is legit and is an instakill on DK

 

[bc1910]

Can we not go down the "X is hard to play" route? Being hard to play has no bearing on a character's tier position, and being hard to play CERTAINLY does not mean that that character has less options or is less versatile than other top tiers.

Fox is probably the hardest character to play well in Melee, yet he's the best in the game. Prepatch Diddy was one of the easiest characters in the game (inb4 "nanners take skill" - he didn't need them) and also the best. There are numerous "Special Snowflake" characters in Smash history who are hard to play yet aren't that good even when mastered, such as Brawl Yoshi. There is no correlation.

Being hard to play should never rule a character out of being top tier. It doesn't change that character's strengths, weaknesses, toolkit or MU spread.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Bowser does need a working Nair more than anything else so he can occasionally land/combo break. That's probably the place to start with him, even if it gets damage nerfs in return for frame buffs.

 

[Vipermoon]

Agreed, he needs his old Nair and 18-20 frames of landing lag to go with it. It should come out on frame 6. Bowser landing issues are so bad for him. But what can you expect from a huge, floaty character?

His current Nair is crap, I don't care how much damage it can do, it's useless.

 

[⑨ball]

If we're talking about giving characters their old nairs back, Samus is always at the top of my list.

 

[Locke 06]

Can we not go down the "X is hard to play" route? Being hard to play has no bearing on a character's tier position, and being hard to play CERTAINLY does not mean that that character has less options or is less versatile than other top tiers.
Being hard to play should never rule a character out of being top tier. It doesn't change that character's strengths, weaknesses, toolkit or MU spread.

When characters are difficult to play, they make more mistakes. When everyone is bad at the game, difficult to play characters are bad in the current metagame, especially when most of the top tier is high reward combo heavy punish characters. It's one of the differences between current power and potential.

 

[Fatmanonice]

When did we become the "let's balance super smash brothers" thread?

To be fair, the discussion is about how characters could be put on the right path towards viability and what's holding them back competitively right now.

 

[CommanderRin]

That Palutena tho...

Very well done, his warp ledge cancels were nice to watch. Very close to taking those games off Mr.R

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

That Palutena tho...

Very well done, his warp ledge cancels were nice to watch. Very close to taking those games off Mr.R

Yeah he was impressive. Makes me want to see customs on even more.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly when it comes to Bowser, I would FIRST primarily reduce the landing lag on his Up-B. This buff is crucial, because Bowser does not have good vertical recovery options. This would also significantly increase the threat of his viable juggle options, something he kinda sorely lacks compared to other heavy hitter characters given his air frame traps are pretty weak.

Less lag on B-air (I mean cmon why 40 frames...) and U-air wouldn't be uncalled for either. Not sure if I want to see Tough Guy get buffed, but if it does, I'd probably recommend toning down Flying Slam damage in exchange (let's be real, the move is actually kinda crazy in a vacuum, and it would be a fairly obvious go-to option with Tough Guy getting buffs).

 

[Jabejazz]

Being hard to play should never rule a character out of being top tier. It doesn't change that character's strengths, weaknesses, toolkit or MU spread.

It artifically makes a character worse when you don't know what this character is capable of at its technical peak.

Harder to play -> Less representation -> Less actual MU knowledge -> More armchair analysis
And while I don't mean that as a way to discredit very useful threads like this, theory only brings you so far.

Also, wow that Palutena.

 

[LiteralGrill]

That Palutena tho...

Very well done, his warp ledge cancels were nice to watch. Very close to taking those games off Mr.R

I was coming here just to comment on that. Captain Chreest just had a rather ecent showing against Mr. R's Sheik. Does anyone here think she could have some tools to work with in this matchup?

 

[wedl!!]

i don't watch the ssc pools stream and now palutena is beating mr r?

either mr r is the biggest fraud alive or palutena is going to become this thread's new theroycraft "I 50:50 EVERYONE" character

 

[Jabejazz]

It seemed a bit like a lack of MU knowledge. Mr. R didn't seem to respect Palutena's tilts one bit, nor her off stage presence.

He did a really great use of Warp, however, and I feel teleporting recoveries as a whole aren't exploited enough.

i don't watch the ssc pools stream and now palutena is beating mr r?

either mr r is the biggest fraud alive or palutena is going to become this thread's new theroycraft "I 50:50 EVERYONE" characer

He didn't beat Mr.R, but he did give him a run for his money.

 

[Smog Frog]

is held back primarily by his terrible grab and isnt compensated enough to be a competitive threat. the recent buff was certainly a step in the right direction, but he needs more. dair autocanceling in a short hop would be a big buff and boost him to a competitive choice, imo(dair autocancelling in a short hop would allow him to do crazy setups and give him amazing reward off of something that isnt his grab)

 

[SpottedCerberus]

It seemed a bit like a lack of MU knowledge. Mr. R didn't seem to respect Palutena's tilts one bit, nor her off stage presence.

He did a really great use of Warp, however, and I feel teleporting recoveries as a whole aren't exploited enough.



He didn't beat Mr.R, but he did give him a run for his money.

.....are we supposed to respect Palutena's tilts? I mean, they're terrible.

is held back primarily by his terrible grab and isnt compensated enough to be a competitive threat. the recent buff was certainly a step in the right direction, but he needs more. dair autocanceling in a short hop would be a big buff and boost him to a competitive choice, imo(dair autocancelling in a short hop would allow him to do crazy setups and give him amazing reward off of something that isnt his grab)

When I play Lucas, I'm always impressed by how good his grab is compared to Samus's. Plus, he has confirms into it. (Zair and d-tilt, that I know of.) I don't think his grab is really holding him back anymore. That said, I'm not really sure what is.

Edit: Also, is Kamicario vs ZeRo online yet? Whatever happened to that?

 

[Wintropy]

.....are we supposed to respect Palutena's tilts? I mean, they're terrible.

D-tilt is okay. It's the best of a bad lot. You can use it to space or pop the opponent up for followups.

U-tilt is ehhhh but it has its uses. It's a mediocre anti-air and the fact that it has a mild vacuum effect means it can be useful as a "get offa me!" tool.

F-tilt is straight up terrible. Poor frame data, can't be acted out of, utterly minimal damage / knockback and, most importantly, totally unsafe on shield. I can't think of any reason why you'd rather it over d-tilt or shorthop f-air if you're a bold goddess.

Incidentally, I realise this was two pages ago, but Pit's side-b does autosnap if you hit the ledge on the sweetspot. Pit has to be just eye-level with the outer pixels of the stage for it to connect.

 

[Luco]

is held back primarily by his terrible grab and isnt compensated enough to be a competitive threat. the recent buff was certainly a step in the right direction, but he needs more. dair autocanceling in a short hop would be a big buff and boost him to a competitive choice, imo(dair autocancelling in a short hop would allow him to do crazy setups and give him amazing reward off of something that isnt his grab)

When I play Lucas, I'm always impressed by how good his grab is compared to Samus's. Plus, he has confirms into it. (Zair and d-tilt, that I know of.) I don't think his grab is really holding him back anymore. That said, I'm not really sure what is.

Edit: Also, is Kamicario vs ZeRo online yet? Whatever happened to that?

Actually, the biggest issue with Dair isn't that it doesn't AC off a SH but that it lacks vertical range, especially on hits 1-3. FH Dair ACs and is pretty good but because of its range can be punished mid-attack, it's really sad. I would give Dair more range and instead have Fair or Nair as the AC-ing aerial. Dude Nair AC-ing into jabs/dtilt would be so sexy again. It's awesome shield pressure and was almost totally safe, especially on cross-up. It would be so sexy to have that back as a close-range pressure tool along with a fully functional Dair. Dair as it is also sets up for a 50/50 kill at high percents if they miss the tech. So much <3

Zair only confirms into grab in rare situations unfortunately. Dtilt is better but not totally guaranteed.

Tbh Lucas just needs to be slightly less polarised around the grab (and mayyyyybe a little less susceptible to counters and attacks when using PKT2) and he'll be fine-ish.

 

[Ffamran]

Agreed, he needs his old Nair and 18-20 frames of landing lag to go with it. It should come out on frame 6. Bowser landing issues are so bad for him. But what can you expect from a huge, floaty character?

His current Nair is crap, I don't care how much damage it can do, it's useless.

As of right now, it does 20% if all 4 hits connect. That's if. Otherwise, it's doing anywhere from 5% to 20% since all the hits do a 75 degree angle. Y'know what they could do? Make it like Wolf's Nair where the strong hit is the first hit and the rest are weak, looping hits. Wolf's Nair didn't autolink, but they could do that for Bowser's Nair or they could make the weak hits have weighted knockback.

The issue is that Bowser's Nair hits kind of weird... It could be like this: frame 8-13 does 12%, frames 14-29 do the remaining 3 hits for 9% if all hits connect. So, there's a strong hit for get off me situations and pure damage and there are still lingering hits for, "You screwed up. Why would you run into a lingering hit like this? Eat 9%." Oh, and 2-4 less frames of end lag would be nice.

If we're talking about giving characters their old nairs back, Samus is always at the top of my list.

Or they could make Samus's Nair work like King's Tornado Kick '95 except that King hits with both legs, so that wouldn't work without an animation change... Well, it could function like Toon Link's Down Smash, but in the air. That would be unique. If that happens, Samus would have a 15% Nair if both hits connect while the late hit always does 6%. Or they could speed it up. Frame 8 and with that power is kind of sad... Frame 5 or 6 instead?

 

[Tainic]

Samus' Nair should get a range buff so it can like, hit people smaller than her and be used as a poking tool, maybe give it a purely horizontal knockback like Robin's so it can be used for early gimps as well maybe.

 

[Routa]

Could we talk about none "top/bottom tier" characters? I'm kinda tired of hearing people talking about Sheik and Samus like 24/7, so...

What you guys think about Lucario, Shulk and Little Mac? Is Shulk viable in customs off meta or does he really need that "better" Arts? Aura + Rage = WTF? Little Mac vs the Big Evil Top Tier?

Also should we stop talking about tiers?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Could we talk about none "top/bottom tier" characters? I'm kinda tired of hearing people talking about Sheik and Samus like 24/7, so...

What you guys think about Lucario, Shulk and Little Mac? Is Shulk viable in customs off meta or does he really need that "better" Arts? Aura + Rage = WTF? Little Mac vs the Big Evil Top Tier?

Also should we stop talking about tiers?

I think Shulk is contender for one of the worst characters in the game. I believe people overrate him and overrate how difficult he is to play. Monado arts are basically putting lipstick on a pig. Temporary stat buffs are just that. He doesn't have the frame data mobility or safety on his moves to keep up with the rest of the cast.

His disadvantage state is probably among the worst in the game. If he's getting juggled he's in trouble. His advantage isn't that good either. He doesn't have juggle traps like a Marth.

Also the Monado art is a double edge sword. There's a draw back to go with each mode. His best aerial is 14 frames. He has a putrid ground game also. Good luck once sheik pikachu or falcon gets in on you.

 

[bc1910]

To be fair, Speed Shulk is very real. Smash Shulk's kill potential from throws is also very good. But alas yeah, Shulk can't enjoy his stat boosts forever.

Lucario is extremely hard to place for me. Don't know what to make of him at all. I don't think he'll ever be bottom or low tier though, his comeback potential is just too good. You can never write that character off.

When characters are difficult to play, they make more mistakes. When everyone is bad at the game, difficult to play characters are bad in the current metagame, especially when most of the top tier is high reward combo heavy punish characters. It's one of the differences between current power and potential.

I never disputed any of this.

You're focusing on the current state of the game, which is fine (and sensible), but I was looking at the wider picture of the game's future and I don't believe the "hard to play" argument should be used in that respect.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Could we talk about none "top/bottom tier" characters? I'm kinda tired of hearing people talking about Sheik and Samus like 24/7, so...

What you guys think about Lucario, Shulk and Little Mac? Is Shulk viable in customs off meta or does he really need that "better" Arts? Aura + Rage = WTF? Little Mac vs the Big Evil Top Tier?

I'm still convinced that the default Monando Artists are the best option. I don't really play Shulk, but I consider them more of a threat. There's just more versatility. That custom vision counter is absolutely insane, and I think the default is already kind of ridiculous, but it's not that easy to land against a good player. (Which, unfortunately, I am not.) Shulk is still held back by his frame data. He's viable, but not easy. That disjointed range is something else though. Between that and his arts, I think he can handle most match-ups. (It's a common misconception that the drawbacks of his arts are as bad as the benefits are good. That's just not true. Each art is situational, but he always gains more than he loses.) But he also benefits a lot from MU inexperience, so it's hard to say.

Lucario is overrated, and also underrated. He's just a weirdo. He's theoretically good, but awkward as all hell to play. At the same time, a good Lucario is never easy to beat, even when the MU is theoretically against him. His hitboxes are precise and his attacks are slow. I recently learned that his side-b can be reflected, so I guess it isn't a crazy disjoint like I thought it was. (That's a pretty big strike against it.) His recovery is also kind of difficult because he has to hit the ledge directly. (I think he only bounces off if the aim is slightly wrong. But maybe it really does just randomly happen sometimes.) With a lot of characters, I up-b into the stage and the momentum carries me right to the ledge. Lucario just bounces off. And then he incurs a lot of landing lag when he does land onstage. By the time he gets to the percents where the match really starts for him, he's in danger of dying off of a single hard read. So he's always forced to make a difficult comeback. And it's even worse if his opponent manages to get a stock lead, because he'll have a lot of difficult taking a stock without being towards the end of his, forcing him to make an even bigger comeback. It seems like playing Lucario would be even more stressful than going against him. He could be anywhere on the tier list. I just have no idea.

Little Mac is interesting. He has some surprisingly good match-ups, and a lot that are hard to call accurately. (Like his MU against Rosalina. People are just all over the place on this one. Personally, I think he could win. He can keep Luma off the stage for the whole game, and then Rosalina isn't safe enough to do much of anything. But he could also lose it badly and I wouldn't be too surprised.) But he also has a lot of theoretical hard counters. The thing is that, even when he theoretically is helpless in a MU, a defensive Mac is still often a chore to face, and he can take the lead off of a single slip-up. When played well, he can be a real problem. But I still don't think he's viable except as a counter-pick/secondary. At lower levels of play, it often takes more skill to beat him than it does to beat someone with him. At higher levels, the opposite may well be true.

Also should we stop talking about tiers?

We ought to focus more on the viability of individual characters. But what we ought to do has little bearing on what we will do.

 

[warionumbah2]

Im honestly impressed with how consistent MK players drastically underrate their character. Like I could understand not believing hes near the top but the conviction that hes mediocre by virtually all MK players makes me feel like Im part of an elaborate troll.

E-excuse me?

 

[Tainic]

I disagree with you, as a Shulk pocket, I'd argue that Shulk probably starts off around Mid Tier imo, he's a chara with a relatively high skill floor, but an even higher skill ceiling, his frame data being horrendous doesn't stop him from having several reliable combo/strings such as Down Tilt > Grab > Dthrow > Fair > iirc another grab/dtilt if at low% or Back Throw > Back Slash, that work till 60-70% thanks to Buster extending his combo potential. His long range, while hampered by his mediocre frame data, allows him to stall a bit if he somehow messes up his Art and needs to wait for, say, Speed to reload.

I also need to add that his recovery and edgeguard potential is no joke, Jump Art is a godly recovery, an equally good gimping tool and Smash Art can seal a stock with a D/Bair at around 60/70%. That's no joke either.

Speaking of which, Smash Art gives Shulk an overwhelming advantage, especially when he is at low percents, when it's essentially a no risker, where he can kill with pretty much anything with the most powerful, knockback wise, Smashes in the game (Let's not count WFT, please.), and can allow him to quickly force the opponent into a retreating situation, where he can then take the right measures to punish and kill. Finally, while Defense is a double edged sword, making him combo food till absurd percentages, it's no joke either : It's the perfect tool to abuse rage, force a time out, and force stronger targets such as Bowser to respect you, that range making you kind of hard to approach if used well.

All in all I strongly believe that Shulk has the right tool to combo, kill, pressure and control space comfortably against the lower half of the cast -at least- in the form of Monado Arts, and that, with the appropriate development (And calibrating, I guess, because lets be honest every character is going to get more buffs/nerfs sooner or later.) can even end up knocking at the door of high tier. His room for devlopment is as huge as Robin's or Rosalina's and I'm kinda impatient to see where it will lead him to.

 

[Ikes]

Give too much Tough Guy threshold to Bowser, and he'd be Sheik's and MK's worst nightmare. Pikachu's QA shenanigans would be less ideal for direct offense, Luigi and Mario Fireballs would mean bugger all, and Wario would struggle....



Let's buff Tough Guy threshold.

I was just thinking that bowser should have a stronger tough guy effect. as it stands it just seems like sprinkles on the cake. It needs some real presence IMHO.

if they made his uthrow combo and tough guy stronger, honestly he'd be contending for upper mid

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So...uh...this video is a thing and it seems that the "we tech those" jokes may be a bit unfounded. Executive summary: some stagespikes are flat-out impossible to tech.

Longer explanation: The tech window is 8 frames prior to impact with the stage, plus however many frames you stick to the wall before you go flying. However, you cannot tech while in hitlag; the input simply won't go through. If you're too close to the wall when hit, the hitlag frames overlap the frames where you're stuck to the wall, preventing a tech. Furthermore, if you're hit with a low-hitlag move (like Sheik's fair) at high % (which would normally make you stick to the wall for more frames), you will actually bounce off sooner -- on the exact same frame the hitlag would normally end, in fact. In either situation, by the time you could possibly send a tech input, you've already bounced off the wall and thus missed the tech entirely.

Discuss?

(@ Shaya sorry if this is more suited for a different topic. Move as necessary I guess.)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So...uh...this video is a thing and it seems that the "we tech those" jokes may be a bit unfounded. Executive summary: some stagespikes are flat-out impossible to tech.

Longer explanation: The tech window is 8 frames prior to impact with the stage, plus however many frames you stick to the wall before you go flying. However, you cannot tech while in hitlag; the input simply won't go through. If you're too close to the wall when hit, the hitlag frames overlap the frames where you're stuck to the wall, preventing a tech. Furthermore, if you're hit with a low-hitlag move (like Sheik's fair) at high % (which would normally make you stick to the wall for more frames), you will actually bounce off sooner -- on the exact same frame the hitlag would normally end, in fact. In either situation, by the time you could possibly send a tech input, you've already bounced off the wall and thus missed the tech entirely.

Discuss?

(@ Shaya sorry if this is more suited for a different topic. Move as necessary I guess.)

I'm glad to see the amount of research that went into this. I always sorta suspected that there was something weird about when you get stage spiked and go straight down without it looking like you bounced at all.
Still doubt commentators will get this right. Not for a while anyways.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I disagree with you, as a Shulk pocket, I'd argue that Shulk probably starts off around Mid Tier imo, he's a chara with a relatively high skill floor, but an even higher skill ceiling, his frame data being horrendous doesn't stop him from having several reliable combo/strings such as Down Tilt > Grab > Dthrow > Fair > iirc another grab/dtilt if at low% or Back Throw > Back Slash, that work till 60-70% thanks to Buster extending his combo potential. His long range, while hampered by his mediocre frame data, allows him to stall a bit if he somehow messes up his Art and needs to wait for, say, Speed to reload.

I also need to add that his recovery and edgeguard potential is no joke, Jump Art is a godly recovery, an equally good gimping tool and Smash Art can seal a stock with a D/Bair at around 60/70%. That's no joke either.

Speaking of which, Smash Art gives Shulk an overwhelming advantage, especially when he is at low percents, when it's essentially a no risker, where he can kill with pretty much anything with the most powerful, knockback wise, Smashes in the game (Let's not count WFT, please.), and can allow him to quickly force the opponent into a retreating situation, where he can then take the right measures to punish and kill. Finally, while Defense is a double edged sword, making him combo food till absurd percentages, it's no joke either : It's the perfect tool to abuse rage, force a time out, and force stronger targets such as Bowser to respect you, that range making you kind of hard to approach if used well.

All in all I strongly believe that Shulk has the right tool to combo, kill, pressure and control space comfortably against the lower half of the cast -at least- in the form of Monado Arts, and that, with the appropriate development (And calibrating, I guess, because lets be honest every character is going to get more buffs/nerfs sooner or later.) can even end up knocking at the door of high tier. His room for devlopment is as huge as Robin's or Rosalina's and I'm kinda impatient to see where it will lead him to.

Unfortunately, that's the Shulk trap that gets a lot of people. His edgeguarding is rather mediocre even while in jump. Especially when compared to other characters. The main problem with his ability to edgeguard would be the speed of his moves. So depending on how he jumps at you it's obvious what he's going to do. I don't believe that his edgeguard is very good because of this. He's no sheik. He's probably one of the worst edgeguarders in the game. Also his ledge trump game is practically non existent. So he loses out on options that almost every character has and mix ups.

His combo game is mediocre and only really works at liw percentages. No kill confirms that I'm aware. Dthrow to fair eorks from like O-20 right? Seems lije everything shulk has according to you is no joke.

But being in a certain art itself is a problem. If you're in smash the combos you listed no longer work. If you're in buster some moves are unsafe on hit. Then it's the simple fact that when you're using a certain art you lose access to another art. Which can be good in certain situations. However, situational moves are just that situational.

Vanilla shulk sucks. Mid tier? Hell no. He's actually worse than palutena in vanilla and maybe worse than Zelda. Poor mobility poor frame data unsafe and laggy moves. Cmon people

 

[deepseadiva]

So...uh...this video is a thing and it seems that the "we tech those" jokes may be a bit unfounded. Executive summary: some stagespikes are flat-out impossible to tech.

Longer explanation: The tech window is 8 frames prior to impact with the stage, plus however many frames you stick to the wall before you go flying. However, you cannot tech while in hitlag; the input simply won't go through. If you're too close to the wall when hit, the hitlag frames overlap the frames where you're stuck to the wall, preventing a tech. Furthermore, if you're hit with a low-hitlag move (like Sheik's fair) at high % (which would normally make you stick to the wall for more frames), you will actually bounce off sooner -- on the exact same frame the hitlag would normally end, in fact. In either situation, by the time you could possibly send a tech input, you've already bounced off the wall and thus missed the tech entirely.

Discuss?

(@ Shaya sorry if this is more suited for a different topic. Move as necessary I guess.)

Oh good this is like the perfect john for when I tech poorly

Thank you

 

[Wintermelon43]

Shulk's great range, and monados, make him him a high tier tbh. Shulk's ready for any situations. Need to recovery? Jump. Want to quickly reach the character? Speed. About to die? Shield. Other opponent about to die? Smash. Need to quickly rack up damage? Buster.