Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

I can give my own theory-crafting, if we don't mind.

Re: Shulk vs Kirby

I'm not experienced enough to say exactly what the number is, but I'd say it's at least even. Why is that? Shulk has good range, yes. But his moves are pretty laggy, too. That's what makes Kirby with the Arts more dangerous than a Shulk ditto. Kirby's biggest problem is getting in, in general. Speed Kirby has no such weakness, and that's where Shulk's lagginess comes into play. Buster Kirby combos Shulk forever, and the others aren't that much more worth it. Though I think Jump Kirby has a combo with the new F-Throw?

Point being, the Neutral Special makes Kirby a ball of death. Moreso than usual, anywho. So, all these things taken into account, the biggest issue is getting the ability in the first place. That's the hard part, and Shulk can definitely keep Kirby out in that time. Kirby's improved Inhale makes it a bit easier though.

I feel like this matchup is one of a few that change completely depending on Kirby's ability.

There's your very not-detailed, probably poor analysis. Tip your waitress.

 

[TriTails]

I believe it. Robin may have had reduced Dthrow lag but there's still a decent amount. On top of that his jumpsquat is 7 frames (like wtf) and his Uair comes out slowish.

Y'know... I think holding a heavy book (18% when thrown omg) and holding a sword at the same time sure would weight you down a bit...

7 frames is like 1 frame faster than GANON tho...

 

[FullMoon]

Robin has a frame 7 jumpsquat?

Why.

 

[Mario766]

Y'know... I think holding a heavy book (18% when thrown omg) and holding a sword at the same time sure would weight you down a bit...

7 frames is like 1 frame faster than GANON tho...

Ganon has a frame 7 jumpsquat like most heavies, unless you're Wario at 6.

 

[PK Gaming]

Robin has a frame 7 jumpsquat?

Why.

Because Robin is literally weighed down by his fears and insecurities.

 

[Ikes]

Because Robin is literally weighed down by his fears and insecurities.

he's weighed down by the chrom in his pocket

 

[TriTails]

Ganon has a frame 7 jumpsquat like most heavies, unless you're Wario at 6.

Uh. I could've sworn I read 8 in KH... But I went back and it's 7.

So okay. Robin now literally have the same jumsquat as Ganon.

How in the flipping heck heavy are those tomes. He already ran the slowest of the entire cast. To make things even more awkward, he moves in the air faster than a bat.

Perhaps they can go change it to 6 at least. But they don't really change characters' stats so IDK.

 

[Vipermoon]

Maybe they wanted a more human-like jump-squat for Robin. He is supposed to be us (he is his game's avatar).

Or maybe carrying multiple heavy books and TWO swords at the same time does it. But that couldn't be right, his weight is 95...

 

[Ikes]

maybe they thought it looked better

 

[PK Gaming]

They just really committed to making Robin the slow, magical dude with a sword

Even if that means (ugh) being less athletic than Ganon

 

[Shaya]

I hadn't actually seen this (whoops), but continuing on the trend of Japanese tier lists deciding balance patches...
(http://smashboards.com/threads/japanese-tier-list-by-shi-g-june-15-version-1-0-7.407138/)
June for a July patch. It honestly seems there is always a planned Japanese tier list release just prior to a balance patch, but this came out very shortly after the June patch.

E:
Every character here was buffed. When you get to Ganon (up throw), Link (up-b) and Ike with only single buffs (probably one of his best yet though).

The characters many call low/bad here and people still call for love buffs;
D:

Kirby, Palutena, Little Mac (very minor). So half of them.

C:
Bowser, Bowser Jr, Greninja, Duck Hunt, Doctor Mario, Shulk and Mewtwo. Seven out of nine got buffs. Although only Greninja, Duck Hunt, Doc, Shulk, M2 got notable alterations (so half of them again).

B:
Seven out of eleven with changes. Notable buffs only to the Pits, Megaman; Pikachu (straight trajectory is better at least for gimping than when the sakurai angle turns 45 degrees), with minor ones to Ness and MK; 4-6/11 (hmm)

The difference between what E characters were given this patch and the B characters (Meta Knight players wanting moar I guess? :3) is pretty noticeable.

A+:
A:
A-:

Pure nerfs to Sheik/Sonic/Falcon. QoL buffs to Diddy, Yoshi, Wario, Fox, Luigi - 5/10. Luigi (and Fox) with compensations for their losses.

Now out of the characters that weren't touched (really):
Samus, Jigglypuff, Falco, Bowser, Bowser Jr, G&W, Dedede, Toon Link, Lucario, ROB, Pacman, Peach, Mario, Zero Suit Samus, Villager, Rosalina, Olimar

Samus, Falco, Bowser, G&W, Lucario, Peach, Villager, Rosalina and Olimar (9/17) were touched last patch.
Leaving Jigglypuff, Bowser Jr, Dedede, Toon Link, ROB (was previoused nerfed), Pacman (has had bug fixes), Mario and ZSS not having received much changes at all (8/17); with Jigglypuff being the only sore one out in terms of Japanese opinion correlating to changes. Mario and ZSS, two high/top tier considered characters haven't been touched at all since WiiU; this may be the 'upper' boundary of power level they are willing to have in a character, as a guess.

And thus basically everything now makes sense.
They're working on roughly half the cast at a time. With only the top (Sonic, Sheik, Falcon) and bottom (Lucina, Charizard, Ike, Marth, Link, Donkey Kong) fringes that have taken waves of changes twice in a row [9 characters] and there are only 8 characters that are perceived as sitting in a 'good spot'.

 

[Thinkaman]

-snip-

Sakurai has stated that the 12-man monitor team uses three sources, presumably in order: Internal playtests (both 1v1 and FFAs), online data, and internet opinions (presumably Japanese). It was implied that they use all three to sanity check the others.

There's not a strict causation in any of these, but there is a correlation. It's like a doctor checking for symptoms in 3 different places, to diagnose a problem and determine appropriate solutions.

 

[warionumbah2]

I did not need to see that list in the morning shaya, I want FE freebies too mk is technically a FE character.

 

[Zage]

Y'all underestimate doctor mario.

The only thing holding him back is his air speed IMO. Mario can do the same things that Doc can, except he has a much easier time because hes so fast.

 

[thehard]

Recently, there was a tournament featuring the top Japanese and American players. In 1v1s, the natural tendency is to use low risk moves to gradually deal damage to the opponent. Smash attacks rarely came out, and the matches were prone to becoming long, drawn out affairs. When considering the variety of ways Smash can be played I think this is a waste, but the winner was certainly decided by skill.

I wonder if this line of thought has been partially responsible for some of the more drastic changes these last couple of patches have granted us. Characters are getting kill throws/setups and damage racking supplements by the bowlful.

Between the time that quote was published and now, Diddys (ZeRo used him to win the Invitational) certainly use their smash moves a lot more. (Nerfs made banana -> f-smash more popular, last buffs made u-smash/d-smash more popular/reliable)

 

[Ikes]

also Doc's fair is actually good instead of being an offstage gimmick.

I think some crazy changes should happen to characters, IMHO giving each character some crazy shot to use would be immensely useful

like, Imagine if Doc's fair broke shields (or did what DK's headbutt does and make it so shields break if they're used any longer)

That would make doc like, the king of shield pressure.

or what if WFT's fair was frame 2? Combo breaker that hits both in front and behind her. Also becomes an even greater gimping and offstage tool.

These are the types of changes I think should happen tbh, adding sprinkles really doesnt change a character. Look what Luigi got, his Up B is now reliable and has reliable setups. Crazy. Or how Robin got a sick combo throw. It may not bring him above B- tier but it's a hell of a lot more than most characters have gotten. Or DK with his Ding Dong.

 

[Shaya]

Maybe we should construct a "smash attack" (over all 3) tier list, could be a good exercise and give some insights.

S:
A:

Everyone else....

:<

 

[DanGR]

Also posting this here, because I realized the original thread is in GD.

Q. Why is Mario so high?
A. Mario is considered the slept-on god of the game. He has no rep whatsoever but has, again in the words of Abadango, "Safe recovery with an up-b that has invincibility, hard-to-breach aerial hitboxes, good aerial mobility, good smashes and throw options, and large combo damage output." I don't think that Ally has anything to do with this, and that people actually think that Mario has untapped god-like potential.

Q. Why is Rosalina so low?
A. Though this was probably somewhat controversial in Japan as well, it basically comes down to Japan not having Dabuz. Luma can be killed fairly easily, and Rosalina's recovery is very vulnerable, some points which were probably points brought up during the discussion. Rosalina's somewhat disappointing results probably prevented her from entering A tier. Her best recent result was Top 12 by Kirihara, and Top 12 a little while back by Ice.

Mario has no rep.
Has potential.
-----------------------------------
Placed 3rd based almost purely on theoretical merits.

--

Rosalina has at least some rep.
Potential not appreciated.
-----------------------------------
Presumably, her rank is based heavily on her results.


Wow.


So, "god-like potential" really isn't an exaggeration. Their view on Mario's potential is overriding his poor results. Yet Rosalina's better results are overshadowed by their view of her theoretical weaknesses (& lack of potential?). If so, I don't necessarily disagree that Mario has more to gain than Rosalina from players learning the game, as uncommon as this point of view is.

Also, are they ignoring NA's results entirely (Is this a Japan-only tier list?) or do they view Dabuz' success as an edge-case?

 

[bc1910]

I'm not sure. Being around Berserker on a daily basis (online) really does give me hope. Speed shulk is safe enough if he both forces you to sheild and crosses up on you, but otherwise is kinda overhyped as "the tool he needs to be good". Frame data is one of the most important things that defines viability in this game, but that doesn't stop Ike's Fair and Nair being monsters, for instance. The thing that kills Shulk in footsies is a lack of aerial deceleration (and unlike Ryu, does not have quick ways to change direction outside of DJ or have particularly safe aerials), something that jump art greatly aids with. Buster, whilst incurring more hitstun for you as the attacker, also incurs more lag on the receivers part. Certain moves are actually significantly safer with buster shulk than any other shulk. Jump shulk also makes following up in the advantaged state a lot more possible.

Shulk mains that try to abuse their AC frames alone won't get very far, but exceptional mains like the obvious one (Trela) have shown that he can kinda do things. Not ready to write this character off yet as bottom 5 or even 10. I think it's (sadly) very possible that he's doomed to the even worse fate of being solid mid tier, where buffs are just that little extra unlikely to reach him because they probably already think they have worked on him enough.

To be fair, Greninja was a "solid mid tier" before the patch (solidly top of mid, but still) and he was the patch's biggest winner. Hopefully we won't have to rule out Shulk buffs entirely. Although I do agree mid-tier is generally a wasteland of characters who are "in a good spot" and get very few changes. I was pretty worried that Greninja was in this pile before his shuriken buff haha.

Leaving Jigglypuff, Bowser Jr, Dedede, Toon Link, ROB (was previoused nerfed), Pacman (has had bug fixes), Mario and ZSS not having received much changes at all (8/17); with Jigglypuff being the only sore one out in terms of Japanese opinion correlating to changes. Mario and ZSS, two high/top tier considered characters haven't been touched at all since WiiU; this may be the 'upper' boundary of power level they are willing to have in a character, as a guess.
.
.
...there are only 8 characters that are perceived as sitting in a 'good spot'.

Funny how most of the relatively untouched characters are Wifi Gods. I did think they didn't care about buffing Wifi Gods due to the massive buffs for Link over the patches, but actually he seems to be the exception and not the norm.

Aside from the Wifi Gods, I think they're just happy with Jigglypuff's combat persona and see no need to change it. She's naturally going to be held back by her weight and poor ground game, and it is what it is. They're probably fine with Bowser Jr too, he perfectly reflects the combat persona of a mischievous wacky brat who uses a lot of Clown Car gadgets. The only thing really holding Jr back at this point is his grab and throws IMO, moreso his throws as his grab isn't THAT bad, he's in a pretty good spot balance-wise.

Mario, I'm fairly certain they don't realise HOW good he is. Typically the balanced, beginner friendly character, they might not have clocked that the mobility buffs have created a top tier contender. That or they're fine with Mario being strong because he's not TOO polarising, he's been weak in every other game, and it's Super Mario for crying out loud. Or some combination of the three.

ZSS I have no idea why they have not addressed her, on paper and in practice she is the #2 character and she could use some tweaking. Why they continue to nerf characters like Sonic and Falcon who aren't as good as her is beyond me (Sonic is close at least, but Falcon? Really?).

 

[Ikes]

Maybe we should construct a "smash attack" (over all 3) tier list, could be a good exercise and give some insights.

S:
A:

Everyone else....

:<

put Little Mac above rosa tbh unless we include luma

also I think Luigi beats out Mario just barely out of his slightly longer range and how incredibly fast fsmash is. That **** comes out so fast and kills so early. Back hit of dsmash is also easier to hit and usmash IIRC kills a little earlier since it goes more upwards

I mean yeah Mario's usmash has invincibility (wait, does Luigi's too? I wanna know) but Luigi has that monster Fsmash with crazy disjoint

Also Toon link should be number 5

Usmash kills fairly early and is fast, fsmash can whiff sometimes but it's the 5th strongest in the game and is fast, Dsmash puts your opponent in a bad position and can kill, all good ****

 

[Thinkaman]

Fox and Yoshi have non-trivially good Smashes. WFT, Ness, and Villager's smashes all have uses but are niche. Marth's stand out as spooky. Jigglypuff stands out as one of the worst as long as we are averaging in d-smash.

 

[adom4]

Maybe we should construct a "smash attack" (over all 3) tier list, could be a good exercise and give some insights.

S:
A:

Everyone else....

:<

I'd put Ganondorf in B (Maybe A but i'm biased so eh).
F-smash is a nuke & while it's a bit slow it's not so slow that it's for huge reads only & can be used as a simple read after a choke but the reach is only average & it has bad end lag.

U-smash is his best smash attack because of its safety because of the IASA frames, huge vertical reach & great power, but the horizontal reach isn't the greatest & fast enough characters can still punish it but overall it's an amazing U-smash & one of the best in the game IMO.

D-smash post patch is good because of the huge knockback boost & the hitbox increase, prepatch it was one of the worst ones in the game but it's almost as strong as F-smash now (in some cases even stronger), it's his fastest smash attack & the horizontal reach is good, but it's his least safe smash attack because how long it lasts, also sometimes the first hit doesn't link properly into the second hit.

 

[Shaya]

I think the next question though is when is the July/August list coming out (if it hasn't already?).

ZSS I have no idea why they have not addressed her, on paper and in practice she is the #2 character and she could use some tweaking. Why they continue to nerf characters like Sonic and Falcon who aren't as good as her is beyond me (Sonic is close at least, but Falcon? Really?).

I could be biased, heaven forbid. I've used Marth more often in tournament than her recently tbh as well.
But she is a character that has high perks to her kit, with what generally requires extremely tight windows to execute things in; she has quite a large list of trapping tools that she gets fantastic reward from that exemplify why she's so multifaceted in capabilities. She's definitely not breaking the bank in Free for Alls I'm sure.

She loses to defensive measures outright [maneuverability + defensive abilities] and has to bridge together a win from the times they get in. Our best tools can get us killed for messing up (grab, down-b, up-b); she's a feather weight character. All of her moves require long set ups or optimal positions (in the first place) to actually be safely used (jumping), etc; she can't hit most of the cast standing on the ground from a jump, she has to wait for the apex (close to half a second). Her ftilt and down smash are her only safe ground moves (with various blind spots), her mix ups are pretty much "try to outrange you at the same time" for the ground and because she lacks a solid grab; her dash to shield is one of the longest in the game (she does have a great OoS game though).

The only way ZSS is getting in on top tier characters/level players (using intelligent reactive defensive movements) is by baiting mistakes, and all she has is the best rewards overall in the game, no doubt (with relatively high technical requirements) to ensure you survive trading on a non-disjointed character (with anything fast), or face being punished for our "required movements" or poor execution. Every poor execution she makes can be punished and people who are completely defensive minded attempting to anticipate/react to holes in our offense are tuned to what they are. Why is it so easy to have poor execution? because every move she has bar up air (which can't be used against a majority of the cast on the ground!) has specific vertical areas they hit in, and they're all particularly short, with very short hitbox frames (usually 2) and vertical spacing is the most dynamic part of Smash Bros that truly differentiates it from other fighting games (in some cases it's evil, like Pikachu); even against Sheik I only have sub 5 to 10 frame windows to hit someone with a 2 frame active move that I can only do once every 40 frames at minimum, and if it isn't spaced properly/whiffs it is not safe and that could be my stock/advantage blown.

So where was that diatribe going? compare to Sheik; all large area (X & Y) or arcing aerials with long hitboxes (fair, nair, uair, bair), Diddy (fair, uair, bair), Mario, and so many other characters.... it's significantly easier in comparison. If I'm off in timing any of my most required moves in neutral to compete at all in any given day, moment, match or whatever means ZSS is the character I shouldn't be playing because it will result in very painful failure. Hence my common switch to Sheik and now Marth and Falco; Marth substituting free/large area ranged/fast ground moves with amazing disjoints. I've been working on Diddy hard as well because his strengths are that much easier to exploit and he has a silly safe/potent neutral game. I find Marth very good as the mirror/clone of game play requirements ZSS has but with more generous windows and can fall back on a passive grab styled game.

ZSS is a hard character to play (here comes more boos). But yeah, she's the most rewarded character in the game IMO (at least in customs off).
At what point is she over compensated for her difficulty? I'm not sure if it should be anything, and until I'm proven otherwise the balance team probably thinks the same.

I do agree she has some polarizing match ups with tall/fat characters because suddenly she can hit them from the rise of her aerials and at significantly more angles/heights, advancing her neutral and safety against them compared to normal height and shorter characters by too much magnitude.
I don't have an answer to that either.

 

[-RedX-]

Ike still seen as bottom tier in Japan.

Very good....

EDIT: Derp, that's an old list. It's almost 7 a.m, I should read posts better when I get some sleep..

 

[webbedspace]

Latest from Umebura: Peach's f-air confirmed OP

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Latest from Umebura: Peach's f-air confirmed OP

Looking good, yeah her fAir is awesome. That daisy tag though, poor man is suffering.

 

[Ikes]

Ike still seen as bottom tier in Japan.

Very good....

EDIT: Derp, that's an old list. It's almost 7 a.m, I should read posts better when I get some sleep..

Isn't Wario like top 6 in japan right now?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I'd put Ganondorf in B (Maybe A but i'm biased so eh).
F-smash is a nuke & while it's a bit slow it's not so slow that it's for huge reads only & can be used as a simple read after a choke but the reach is only average & it has bad end lag.

U-smash is his best smash attack because of its safety because of the IASA frames, huge vertical reach & great power, but the horizontal reach isn't the greatest & fast enough characters can still punish it but overall it's an amazing U-smash & one of the best in the game IMO.

D-smash post patch is good because of the huge knockback boost & the hitbox increase, prepatch it was one of the worst ones in the game but it's almost as strong as F-smash now (in some cases even stronger), it's his fastest smash attack & the horizontal reach is good, but it's his least safe smash attack because how long it lasts, also sometimes the first hit doesn't link properly into the second hit.

What are the overall frames for Ganondorf's Up Smash? I'm pretty sure its 44 but I'm not too sure.

Latest from Umebura: Peach's f-air confirmed OP

Peach putting that Crown to working, damn.

Snip

Kind hard to read when its all in one big paragraph

Edit: Ah, much better!

 

[TriTails]

Ike bottom tier in ver 1.0.7.

Even if that's before his 1.0.8 buffs.

As you Americans say, da**q!?!?!?!?

---

Would put Falcon's SAs in low tier. F-smash is powerful and is basically an invisible spear because it hits miles in front of Falcon. But it's so effing slow and has horrible end lag. U-smash is meh. Mediocre power, huge startup, horrible hitbox placements, etc. D-smash is basically a weaker, faster F-smash that hits both sides. Still pretty mediocre tho.

Doc's are kinda... good? F-smash is pretty good, at around Mario's levels. The sweetspot isn't as far away and since Doc likes to get on people's face I imagine the sweetspot would serve him better. I have found better results with his than Mario's. U-smash is... perhaps a bit great. It has diagonal angle (Easy to DI), but has 5 frames of active frames and also deal quite good damage. And it kinda combos. D-smash is better than Mario's, hands down. At least it has better damage output and the semi-spike angle helps Tornado gimps. Would put him in high.

 

[outfoxd]

Duck Hunt at bottom tier of smashes. The "fix" barely did a damn thing, and his smashes still suck on a fundamental level.

Nintendo hates puppies and ducks.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Umebura 18 Grand Finals for those who missed out:
http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming/v/10118905?t=4h19m41s

 

[Ikes]

Ike bottom tier in ver 1.0.7.

Even if that's before his 1.0.8 buffs.

As you Americans say, da**q!?!?!?!?

---

Would put Falcon's SAs in low tier. F-smash is powerful and is basically an invisible spear because it hits miles in front of Falcon. But it's so effing slow and has horrible end lag. U-smash is meh. Mediocre power, huge startup, horrible hitbox placements, etc. D-smash is basically a weaker, faster F-smash that hits both sides. Still pretty mediocre tho.

Doc's are kinda... good? F-smash is pretty good, at around Mario's levels. The sweetspot isn't as far away and since Doc likes to get on people's face I imagine the sweetspot would serve him better. I have found better results with his than Mario's. U-smash is... perhaps a bit great. It has diagonal angle (Easy to DI), but has 5 frames of active frames and also deal quite good damage. And it kinda combos. D-smash is better than Mario's, hands down. At least it has better damage output and the semi-spike angle helps Tornado gimps. Would put him in high.

the semi spike angle has killed me so many times even if it wasnt the knockback. It's so hard to recover against that when it flings you off the stage andd gravity does the rest of the work.

 

[Smog Frog]

i'm still very confused about japan's opinion on . he has practically no rep over there(abadango said there's some guy in kantō but not much beyond that), so how would they guess he's second to ? apex/evo results? do they know their opinions hold more water and hate him as much as we do? am i overthinking this?

 

[Dogivet]

Well if the buffs/nerfs is heavily portrayed by Japanese influence (which I'm not sure who would have doubted that for the most part), I guess more of you guys should hop onto Google translate, make some grammatically incorrect statements and complain wherever they're complaining.

Maybe with sudden mass of roughly translated messages they'll do something like fix Samus, who knows...

 

[wedl!!]

Latest from Umebura: Peach's f-air confirmed OP

omg those float cancel baits into grabs were so sexy

i just learned dthrow>dsmash and da>nair are things from this vod

 

[Blobface]

@ CyberHyperPhoenix
Ganon's U-smash does end sometime around frame 40, though it's high shieldstun makes it almost 100% safe. The only times I've ever been punished out of U-smash were times where I sat there charging it and giving them plenty of time to prepare.

 

[Teshie U]

Ike bottom tier in ver 1.0.7.

Even if that's before his 1.0.8 buffs.

As you Americans say, da**q!?!?!?!?

---

Would put Falcon's SAs in low tier. F-smash is powerful and is basically an invisible spear because it hits miles in front of Falcon. But it's so effing slow and has horrible end lag. U-smash is meh. Mediocre power, huge startup, horrible hitbox placements, etc. D-smash is basically a weaker, faster F-smash that hits both sides. Still pretty mediocre tho.

Doc's are kinda... good? F-smash is pretty good, at around Mario's levels. The sweetspot isn't as far away and since Doc likes to get on people's face I imagine the sweetspot would serve him better. I have found better results with his than Mario's. U-smash is... perhaps a bit great. It has diagonal angle (Easy to DI), but has 5 frames of active frames and also deal quite good damage. And it kinda combos. D-smash is better than Mario's, hands down. At least it has better damage output and the semi-spike angle helps Tornado gimps. Would put him in high.

Upsmash has a nice invisible disjointed scoop for Falcon. Not Mario/GnW level of abuse, but its definitely a fine smash.

Fsmash is stupid poweful and the end lag isn't that bad when you factor in the massive shield push and stun. Its like most characters can hit Falcon hard for throwing this out.

Dsmash is almost lagless. Between this and jab, its just free safe KO moves with hitboxes all over the place.

 

[David Viran]

I think the next question though is when is the July/August list coming out (if it hasn't already?).



I could be biased, heaven forbid. I've used Marth more often in tournament than her recently tbh as well.
But she is a character that has high perks to her kit, with what generally requires extremely tight windows to execute things in; she has quite a large list of trapping tools that she gets fantastic reward from that exemplify why she's so multifaceted in capabilities. She's definitely not breaking the bank in Free for Alls I'm sure.

She loses to defensive measures outright [maneuverability + defensive abilities] and has to bridge together a win from the times they get in. Our best tools can get us killed for messing up (grab, down-b, up-b); she's a feather weight character. All of her moves require long set ups or optimal positions (in the first place) to actually be safely used (jumping), etc; she can't hit most of the cast standing on the ground from a jump, she has to wait for the apex (close to half a second). Her ftilt is her only safe ground move (dsmash can get dash grabbed if not shielded too early w/o PS), her mix ups are pretty much "try to outrange you at the same time" for the ground and because she lacks a solid grab; her dash to shield is one of the longest in the game (she does have a great OoS game though).

The only way ZSS is getting in on top tier characters/level players (using intelligent reactive defensive movements) is by baiting mistakes, and all she has is the best rewards overall in the game, no doubt (with relatively high technical requirements) to ensure you survive trading on a non-disjointed character (with anything fast), or face being punished for our "required movements" or poor execution. Every poor execution she makes can be punished and people who are completely defensive minded attempting to anticipate/react to holes in our offense are tuned to what they are. Why is it so easy to have poor execution? because every move she has bar up air (which can't be used against a majority of the cast on the ground!) has specific vertical areas they hit in, and they're all particularly short, with very short hitbox frames (usually 2) and vertical spacing is the most dynamic part of Smash Bros that truly differentiates it from other fighting games (in some cases it's evil, like Pikachu); even against Sheik I only have sub 5 to 10 frame windows to hit someone with a 2 frame active move that I can only do once every 40 frames at minimum, and if it isn't spaced properly/whiffs it is not safe and that could be my stock/advantage blown.

So where was that diatribe going? compare to Sheik; all large area (X & Y) or arcing aerials with long hitboxes (fair, nair, uair, bair), Diddy (fair, uair, bair), Mario, and so many other characters.... it's significantly easier in comparison. If I'm off in timing any of my most required moves in neutral to compete at all in any given day, moment, match or whatever means ZSS is the character I shouldn't be playing because it will result in very painful failure. Hence my common switch to Sheik and now Marth and Falco; Marth substituting free/large area ranged/fast ground moves with amazing disjoints. I've been working on Diddy hard as well because his strengths are that much easier to exploit and he has a silly safe/potent neutral game. I find Marth very good as the mirror/clone of game play requirements ZSS has but with more generous windows and can fall back on a passive grab styled game.

ZSS is a hard character to play (here comes more boos). But yeah, she's the most rewarded character in the game IMO (at least in customs off).
At what point is she over compensated for her difficulty? I'm not sure if it should be anything, and until I'm proven otherwise the balance team probably thinks the same.

I do agree she has some polarizing match ups with tall/fat characters because suddenly she can hit them from the rise of her aerials and at significantly more angles/heights, advancing her neutral and safety against them compared to normal height and shorter characters by too much magnitude.
I don't have an answer to that either.

That sheild thread for zss was wrong on dsmash. He counted the hit lag for zss when dsmash Is considered a projectile so zss doesn't receive hit lag. Dsmash is actually -4 on sheild drop. I'm pretty sure he fixed it.

 

[Man Li Gi]

What are the overall frames for Ganondorf's Up Smash? I'm pretty sure its 44 but I'm not too sure.


Peach putting that Crown to working, damn.


Kind hard to read when its all in one big paragraph

Edit: Ah, much better!

Ganon acts on frame 41 out of Usmash (used to be frame 32 tho in Brawl). It doesn't matter what the overall frames are if the IASA comes before it.

 

[Conda]

Shulk's great range, and monados, make him him a high tier tbh. Shulk's ready for any situations. Need to recovery? Jump. Want to quickly reach the character? Speed. About to die? Shield. Other opponent about to die? Smash. Need to quickly rack up damage? Buster.

Need to telegraph to your opponent what you're going to try and do? Monado Art.