Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[SpottedCerberus]

i'm still very confused about japan's opinion on . he has practically no rep over there(abadango said there's some guy in kantō but not much beyond that), so how would they guess he's second to ? apex/evo results? do they know their opinions hold more water and hate him as much as we do? am i overthinking this?

They also rank Mario very highly despite little rep.

I guess the Japanese are not immune to theorycraft either.

Duck Hunt at bottom tier of smashes. The "fix" barely did a damn thing, and his smashes still suck on a fundamental level.

Nintendo hates puppies and ducks.

And Samus.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Duck Hunt at bottom tier of smashes. The "fix" barely did a damn thing, and his smashes still suck on a fundamental level.

Nintendo hates puppies and ducks.

That or the hunter is just a ****ty shot in canon.

 

[Cassio]

I think people underrate a characters ability or inability to transcend bracket luck when making an assessment of their overall viability. It requires to a decent degree taking a meta perspective of character viability and separating it from the character's strength.

For instance I think in Brawl as powerful as MK was, a decent amount of his success came from his ability to transcend bracket luck. While every other character had those MU's (or perhaps players) that were likely to send them to defeat, MK never had to really worry about this in some flip of the coin kind of chance.

Sheik isnt a character that dominates the cast in a way that MK did so she has to put in work throughout the bracket, but she does in a sense trascend bracket luck because there isnt a MU that you can look a and say shes likely to lose (maybe diddy kong?!?).

Thats why I put sheik in an A+ to other top tiers A, it at least provides us a non-trivial way of placing sheik separate in some way from the rest of the cast even if she doesnt quite suffocate.

Its also why I think people are relying a bit too heavily on results when they put ZSS as her own tier level, default second in the game. The difference between her and the other characters is trivial and very debatable, and theres enough other good characters where it wouldnt heavily surprise me to see her several spots lower while still being a potent force in tournaments.
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Regarding the Japanese Tier-list plus buffs/nerfs; I think its been very important that theres been any degree of community feedback when making adjustments. Whether they agree or disagree with them, it at least puts the idea into their head to test it.

 

[bc1910]

Speaking of Duck Hunt, in customs off how on EARTH does this character kill?

I've been playing with Duck Hunt in my effort to learn every character to at least a competent level and I am having a devil of a time actually getting KOs. All his attacks are pretty weak.

Uair and sweetspot Bair can get the job done but both are hard to land, and it seems like... they're his only options. He can get a hoo hah 50/50 since his Dthrow Uair true combos a jumping opponent but DI ruins it. As I said, his smashes are weak (besides Fsmash which is crazy slow and punishable) and don't work anyway. Thoughts?

 

[Conda]

Mewtwo - worth using as a secondary main? Worst DLC character? Is the lightness really gamebreaking?

WFT - how about him/her?

 

[Antonykun]

How does his throw game become worse than Marcina's at mid percents? I'm pretty sure he can still get up Air followups from Down throw if he reads the Airdodge.

Speaking of Mii swordfighter, I'm surprised no one here ever mentions his insane jab. His jab1 is a lot like prepatch link's since it can combo into itself (sorta) and many of Mii sword Fighter's moves. I think this move alone pushes him out of low tier

The opponent can just jump out and if its on Battlefield or any other place with a bunch of platforms though if they do airdodge and you whiff the U-air you can come down to do an Up tilt and set up another Airdodge read. Honestly though this fails against an unhealthy chunk of Top tiers and their get out of jail free cards

1.0.7 (thats the one that introduced Ryu right?) gave him a frame 5 jab plus those rewards means that Swordfighter has an incredibly ridiculous jab. I used to talk about it back in CCI1 but got bored of stating what i said before

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I think people underrate a characters ability or inability to transcend bracket luck when making an assessment of their overall viability. It requires to a decent degree taking a meta perspective of character viability and separating it from the character's strength.

For instance I think in Brawl as powerful as MK was, a decent amount of his success came from his ability to transcend bracket luck. While every other character had those MU's (or perhaps players) that were likely to send them to defeat, MK never had to really worry about this in some flip of the coin kind of chance.

Sheik isnt a character that dominates the cast in a way that MK did so she has to put in work throughout the bracket, but she does in a sense trascend bracket luck because there isnt a MU that you can look a and say shes likely to lose (maybe diddy kong?!?).

Thats why I put sheik in an A+ to other top tiers A, it at least provides us a non-trivial way of placing sheik separate in some way from the rest of the cast even if she doesnt quite suffocate.

Its also why I think people are relying a bit too heavily on results when they put ZSS as her own tier level, default second in the game. The difference between her and the other characters is trivial and very debatable, and theres enough other good characters where it wouldnt heavily surprise me to see her several spots lower while still being a potent force in tournaments.
----------------------------------
Regarding the Japanese Tier-list plus buffs/nerfs; I think its been very important that theres been any degree of community feedback when making adjustments. Whether they agree or disagree with them, it at least puts the idea into their head to test it.

But isn't that what people mean when they say "solo-mainable"?
It comes down to the MU spread.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Mewtwo - worth using as a secondary main? Worst DLC character? Is the lightness really gamebreaking?

WFT - how about him/her?

Mewtwo just feels incomplete whenever I play him. Combined with the fact that he has horrible matchups with most high tier characters, I just can't see him being any good. When you're almost as light as Jigglypuff but 10x his size, life is hard. I'm just glad he has one of the best projectiles in the game. He deserves it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Mewtwo - worth using as a secondary main? Worst DLC character? Is the lightness really gamebreaking?

WFT - how about him/her?

To me with Mewtwo, if you were to put a stupid amount of time into him, become an absolute monster at landing Confusion and Disable, perfectly figure out all of his 50/50s, master his teleporting cancelling, and learned how to keep him as safe as possible you'd end up with a... okay pocket character. Probably good as a surprise factor and a few unique MUs where he can do well. Like, if a smart learning computer was controlling him and knew the advance stuff, Mewtwo would be a pretty scary character to go up against.

If you aren't willing to put in that much time into him, don't bother.

WFT: Don't know. I'll need to see how people do now with their hitbox improvement. Maybe?

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Maybe we should construct a "smash attack" (over all 3) tier list, could be a good exercise and give some insights.

S:
A:

Everyone else....

:<

Wouldn't Little Mac be #1?

I'd put Samus in bottom tier. She's not the worst, but her smash attack are really bad. Worst d-smash in the game, slightly malfunctional u-smash, laggy f-smash with a crappy hitbox. Her only consolation is that her f-smash is actually tied with Marcina's for the fastest in the game.

 

[ZcK]

Need to telegraph to your opponent what you're going to try and do? Monado Art.

If you play very linear of course, smash is the only one that is obvious. Buster too but the opponent options become very limited when the usually unsafe stuff from shulk becomes safe on shield.

Jump is not only used for recovering and neither speed for approaching. Both give you incredible mobility which by itself is very versatile.

And shield telegraphs nothing other that you dont want to die.

Also everyone that thinks "camp shield because slow" You may run from shield but shulk can run too when shield is over, is not like everyone can reach jump height or keep up with speed. And jump doesnt reduce his weight so he will live to high percentages anyway.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Also everyone that thinks "camp shield because slow" You may run from shield but shulk can run too when shield is over.

When shield is over the camping worked

 

[Kaladin]

So... Can we talk about Bowser Jr? He (functionally) has a sword, a good zone/edgeguard game, a good combo game, and a spindash that has super armour and combos more.... But kinda meh frame data. I'm really not sure what to make of him- potential bottom of hight tier?

 

[Cassio]

But isn't that what people mean when they say "solo-mainable"?
It comes down to the MU spread.

Its a difference of degree. You can have a hard MU without being Brawl DDD vs DK.

Having a couple hard MUs doesnt mean you can't solo main, but if you have too many and/or theyre common characters then that certainly has a bigger affect on viability.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Shield is probably the least used art anyway. Unless you want to time someone out, there isn't much of a point.

Unless Shulk is on his last stock, it would probably be wiser to use something like Buster when he's in KO percents. If he uses Shield, he's just delaying his death without getting much out of it. If he uses Buster, he can rack up some extra damage before he actually loses his stock.

I guess if both him and his opponent are in KO percents then Shield may be a viable option, but, again, they can just wait it out, and it's worth noting that shield Shulk can get combo'd pretty hard.

I think it's definitely the most situational of his arts and it's the one I see the least.

The ranking is probably something like this:
Speed
Jump
Buster
Smash
Shield

Smash is low because it's such a high risk option. Speed and Jump are bread and butter. Not nearly as situational or risky as the others.

I should probably mention that I don't main Shulk, and I play as him pretty rarely though. So these are mostly opinions that I've gathered from reading about him. (So it's partly theorycrafting and partly the informed opinions of other people, that I found reasonable. And partly experience, but only a small part.)

 

[Mario766]

Ike's smashes are in low tier. Some of the slowest in the game, good kill power but are extremely unsafe. Up Smash is his only good smash attack due to how much of the stage it covers.

 

[ZcK]

When shield is over the camping worked

Think it like luma perhaps, in that he can recover the art in like 10 seconds and you have to camp him all over again, considering all things he is not a stone standing just there so he can chase you slowly, but eventually he may catch up and rack up some damage making up the camping not so effective since when he is in front of you his attacks cover a wide area making it harder to escape.

Shield is probably the least used art anyway. Unless you want to time someone out, there isn't much of a point.

Unless Shulk is on his last stock, it would probably be wiser to use something like Buster when he's in KO percents. If he uses Shield, he's just delaying his death without getting much out of it. If he uses Buster, he can rack up some extra damage before he actually loses his stock.

I guess if both him and his opponent are in KO percents then Shield may be a viable option, but, again, they can just wait it out, and it's worth noting that shield Shulk can get combo'd pretty hard.

I think it's definitely the most situational of his arts and it's the one I see the least.

It is indeed his most underrated art, and it also reduces hitstun so it can get out of combos sometimes and since he wont die for a while you can in KO percents spam a bit his quite unsafe kill moves since the opponent punishes wont be so damaging and wont rack that much damage.

Otherwise yeah he just delays his death, but it forces the opponent to commit and do riskier moves which can be punished, he controls the flow of the match, it also increases his shield health in such a way that bowser bomb wont break it.

But yeah if you are with a stock lead and in an advantageous position the most optimal option is buster, which then again is more useful when the opponent is at mid-percents.

 

[Tainic]

The ranking is probably something like this:
Speed
Jump
Buster
Smash
Shield

Smash is low because it's such a high risk option. Speed and Jump are bread and butter. Not nearly as situational or risky as the others.

I should probably mention that I don't main Shulk, and I play as him pretty rarely though. So these are mostly opinions that I've gathered from reading about him. (So it's partly theorycrafting and partly the informed opinions of other people, that I found reasonable. And partly experience, but only a small part.)

I'd say Buster and Jump are equally good, they're not as awesome and useful as Speed, but while the first may allow you to have some emergency mobility if Speed is reloading/recover/edgeguard, Buster is as useful and extends Shulk's combo potential to the 70% area, where they then become prone to get killed by Smash Monado or be edgeguarded more easily by Jump.

Otherwise I agree, Shield's usefulness is limited to stalling, (It becomes an extremely good option when you have a stock lead, along with Buster.) abusing rage and that's pmuch it because so many characters can abuse the Art's drawback. (Either Speedy characters or the ones with a projectile.) I'd say it deserves a buff but I don't think they'll ever touch his Monado Arts.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I haven't been here for a while.

How can a Sonic defeat a Sheik? This is a trivial question and all. But I would like to make some theorycraft on how to beat a good/excellente Sheik player with Sonic. I feel Sonic has the most chance to win againts Sheik. since he can keep up with her and escape her combos (spring helps, but then we can get booped by Up Air or Vanish). And Sonic can shield Sheik's needles easily and start his combos on Sheik. I really want something to counter Sheik or just to go even with her.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I haven't been here for a while.

How can a Sonic defeat a Sheik? This is a trivial question and all. But I would like to make some theorycraft on how to beat a good/excellente Sheik player with Sonic. I feel Sonic has the most chance to win againts Sheik. since he can keep up with her and escape her combos (spring helps, but then we can get booped by Up Air or Vanish). And Sonic can shield Sheik's needles easily and start his combos on Sheik. I really want something to counter Sheik or just to go even with her.

That's a question for the Sonic boards.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Maybe we should construct a "smash attack" (over all 3) tier list, could be a good exercise and give some insights.

S:
A:

Everyone else....

:<

Doc's Smashes are all better than Mario's, including Fsmash. You shouldn't land Fsmash on either chatacter, just Doc's rewards you more in boxing wars where you actually have a small chance of tricking someone. Usmash in particular now hits the front properly, which is really good for option coverage.

And best Smashes imo easily goes to Link. All are fairly fast massive range and damage, good knockback, and as a bonus they are all easy to trap people into. Link's Usmash is legit OP for punishing landings honestly on top of being a devastating oos option on both sides of his body. Fsmash is really safe for its power given the whole 2nd hit mindgame.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Alright

I haven't been able to post anything good to the thread. So I wanted to at least import a counter to Sheik or something. I don't know.

vs How is this match-up? Does Fox rekt Falcon to death? Or Falcon has more kill power than Fox and kills him first?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Alright

I haven't been able to post anything good to the thread. So I wanted to at least import a counter to Sheik or something. I don't know.

vs How is this match-up? Does Fox rekt Falcon to death? Or Falcon has more kill power than Fox and kills him first?

Wrong thread. Hit up either boards.

 

[PUK]

Doc's Smashes are all better than Mario's, including Fsmash. You shouldn't land Fsmash on either chatacter, just Doc's rewards you more in boxing wars where you actually have a small chance of tricking someone. Usmash in particular now hits the front properly, which is really good for option coverage.

And best Smashes imo easily goes to Link. All are fairly fast massive range and damage, good knockback, and as a bonus they are all easy to trap people into. Link's Usmash is legit OP for punishing landings honestly on top of being a devastating oos option on both sides of his body. Fsmash is really safe for its power given the whole 2nd hit mindgame.

Link smashes are not good. not bad either, but far from the best.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'd say Buster and Jump are equally good, they're not as awesome and useful as Speed, but while the first may allow you to have some emergency mobility if Speed is reloading/recover/edgeguard, Buster is as useful and extends Shulk's combo potential to the 70% area, where they then become prone to get killed by Smash Monado or be edgeguarded more easily by Jump.

Otherwise I agree, Shield's usefulness is limited to stalling, (It becomes an extremely good option when you have a stock lead, along with Buster.) abusing rage and that's pmuch it because so many characters can abuse the Art's drawback. (Either Speedy characters or the ones with a projectile.) I'd say it deserves a buff but I don't think they'll ever touch his Monado Arts.

Jump is much better than Buster. The improved mobility, space control, recovery and edgeguarding is much, much better than a flat increase in damage.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Either Palutena or Duck Hunt have the worst smashes IMO. I'm fairly certain that Little Mac has the best Smashes overall. Sure Mario/Luigi/Doc may have faster ones but the armor on Mac's is undeniable. Also Dsmash can catch recoveries with poor ledge sweetspots very safely. The only person who comes close to that is Rosalina with Luma. Fsmash and Usmash are incredible finishers, Usmash being quick and a great OoS option and Fsmash being extremely powerful off a read. Dsmash can cover many options when Luma is placed right.

 

[BSP]

On a not serious note, Shulk is the FFA champ. Backed by a mostly disjointed moveset, he can be as strong as Ganon damage or KB wise, as fast as Sonic, heavier than Bowser, or have top tier mobility on the ground or in the air when the situation calls for it. Back Slash is also a move, and random Visions go a long way.

On a more serious note, MArts are probably why he's screwed. Any change they make to him will be amplified by the arts, and a small buff to vanilla Shulk may mean an OP speed/buster/smash/shield/jump Shulk. The only change that would do this are frame data changes imo, but that's probably not happening because Shulk would become too dangerous. I don't see him going any higher than mid tier right now.

Any Shulk players out there: have you considered using MShield at lower %'s with the intention of making popular combo starters unsafe on hit? I know you lose what little mobility Shulk has and take a % dealt nerf, but with the reduced % and KB received + crouch cancelling, you might be able to retaliate immediately from a lot of moves. I see "shield's only good for stalling at high %" thrown around a lot. That's its main strength, but it can have uses elsewhere.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Dsmash Rosalina can cover many options when Luma is placed right.

I think this is more accurate in general.

EDIT:

On a not serious note, Shulk is the FFA champ. Backed by a mostly disjointed moveset, he can be as strong as Ganon damage or KB wise, as fast as Sonic, heavier than Bowser, or have top tier mobility on the ground or in the air when the situation calls for it. Back Slash is also a move, and random Visions go a long way.

On a more serious note, MArts are probably why he's screwed. Any change they make to him will be amplified by the arts, and a small buff to vanilla Shulk may mean an OP speed/buster/smash/shield/jump Shulk. The only change that would do this are frame data changes imo, but that's probably not happening because Shulk would become too dangerous. I don't see him going any higher than mid tier right now.

Any Shulk players out there: have you considered using MShield at lower %'s with the intention of making popular combo starters unsafe on hit? I know you lose what little mobility Shulk has and take a % dealt nerf, but with the reduced % and KB received + crouch cancelling, you might be able to retaliate immediately from a lot of moves. I see "shield's only good for stalling at high %" thrown around a lot. That's its main strength, but it can have uses elsewhere.

I think a frame or two of reduced startup on jab and maybe dtilt or utilt would go a long way. Also maybe make his jab combo link better? I seem to recall that being an iffy thing or maybe I'm just bad, IDK. Point being, let him defend himself better in close range by speeding up his weaker options a bit.

 

[bc1910]

Duck Hunt probably has the worst smashes. With Palutena, Dsmash blows, but the Chicken Slap at least has windbox shenanigans you can benefit from. It's also powerful and just a simple hit, even though it's slow; no multi-hit stuff or awkward sweetspot to worry about, the sweetspot is right next to her and it hits hard. Her Usmash is also infinitely better than any of Duck Hunt's smashes and probably a lot of other Usmashes because of that crazy range.

 

[Antonykun]

Swordfighter's Smash are ok at best but they have their uses
Brawler's Smashes are tear jerkingly bad
Gunner's Smashes are an active part of her tool kit and is thus really good

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link smashes are not good. not bad either, but far from the best.

Uh, his Smashes are fast minus F-smash, but his F-smash has range not unlike Shulk's, but is considerably safer and does more damage and kills earlier. And both his U-smash and D-smash do like 17% fresh. U-smash is stupid good out of shield and basically bodies landing options completely, and both these Smashes are actually easy to confirm and trap into. How the hell are they not the best and most practical Smashes?

Serious question, the numbers scream amazing on Link's Smashes.

 

[Vipermoon]

If we're talking sets of smashes.

The bests sets of Smashes are (in no order) Kirby, Mario, Dr. Mario, Luigi, Little Mac, and Rosalina (ONLY when combined with Luma)

Edit: And Olimar when not against reflectors

 

[A2ZOMG]

If we're talking sets of smashes.

The bests sets of Smashes are (in no order) Kirby, Mario, Dr. Mario, Luigi, Little Mac, and Rosalina (ONLY when combined with Luma)

Edit: And Olimar when not against reflectors

I can agree with Mac and Kirby having great Smashes in general. Rosalina, Mario, Doc, and Luigi only have noticeably above average U-smashes, and Mario, Doc, and Luigi will never land Smashes on BF.

If we're talking about great sets of Smashes, Link is better than most of those characters in terms of both reward and application. Mac and Kirby are reasonable competition for him.

 

[outfoxd]

Speaking of Duck Hunt, in customs off how on EARTH does this character kill?

I've been playing with Duck Hunt in my effort to learn every character to at least a competent level and I am having a devil of a time actually getting KOs. All his attacks are pretty weak.

Uair and sweetspot Bair can get the job done but both are hard to land, and it seems like... they're his only options. He can get a hoo hah 50/50 since his Dthrow Uair true combos a jumping opponent but DI ruins it. As I said, his smashes are weak (besides Fsmash which is crazy slow and punishable) and don't work anyway. Thoughts?

Spikes, ingenuity or sheer persistence.

 

[Firefoxx]

Fatality is in top 8 winners! Over Dabuz! Holy **** Falcon coming through at a major!

 

[Gunla]

Fatality is on fire. Really good showing of Falcon. I believe he faces Zero next in Top 8, correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[Firefoxx]

Fatality is on fire. Really good showing of Falcon. I believe he faces Zero next in Top 8, correct me if I'm wrong?

Challenge says you are correct

 

[Superbat]

Those grabs from Nairo

 

[Blobface]

Shulk is a character that would benefit immensely from having one quick move for both the air and ground. You could make his jab F3 with better linking and have his Nair have a quick hitbox on the physical part of the sword when he first brings it out.

As is, he's kind of stuck in the same boat as Ganondorf, a spacing character in a game where the top tiers can rush right through spacing. Except Shulk doesn't have freakishly huge muscles to back him up.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Speaking of Duck Hunt, in customs off how on EARTH does this character kill?

Traps. Lots and lots of traps. I feel like a big part of this character is manipulating where your opponent goes with the projectiles and then punishing based on it. If you watch people like Dunnobro, you see this a lot where he'll set up the can in a particular way to force their opponent to be in a particular spot or get hit with the can. That said, he's a very strategic character.

Best and worst Smash attacks in my opinion?

Best:

- Pretty much everything you want in smash attacks: quick, hard to punish, cover a lot of space, hit like a truck. The super armor for all of them is dead sexy too and Mac's angled fsmash options are probably the best in the game.

- Slightly below Mac's but only because their effectiveness tanks if Luma's gone and they lack super armor.

- They may not have the best single smash attacks in the game but their tool kit is pretty well rounded. They're relatively quick, hard to punish unless spammed mindlessly, and reliable kill options.

- Like Rosalina's but without the extra oomph. Would be ranked higher if their effectiveness and reliability wasn't determined by which Pikmin you were using.

Worst:

- I just feel that they're underwhelming and easy to punish though I will admit that Robin is a character that I barely ever touch, even when I'm goofing around.
- Largely in the same boat as Duck Hunt, you have to pretty much trick your opponent into running into them, at least for usmash/dsmash. The angled fsmash, however, is pretty useful especially with it's deceptive and lingering hitbox, making it one of the better anti-air smash attacks. Usmash is okay for ledge traps while dsmash is by far Bowser Jr's worst move in my opinion.
- Usmash is great but the others... eh... fsmash and dsmash would be a lot more functional if they either had bigger windboxes or less ending lag. Like Bowser Jr and Duck Hunt, you can't really just throw them out there and expect them to hit against good opponents.
- *insert Excalibur face here* Depressingly underwhelming because they take forever to kill. Why even bother calling them smash attacks if you have to rely on rage to kill with them at a decent percentage?
- You have to pretty much trick your opponent into running into them. Very easy to punish if just thrown out randomly.If you want to land a kill with Duck Hunt, it's probably not going to be with these.